Topic: Let's List Plot Holes/Contradictions In-Game and With Reality.

[theplottwist]

Exactly what is says on the tin.

After heated arguments over here at the Dungeon and with a friend, I decided to call for a collective use of our grey-matter to list EVERY contradiction Castlevania has against reality, and plot-holes inside the game world itself -- retcons NOT withstanding, such as Alucard's soul having been sold to the devil by Dracula, resulting on him turning into a vampire. Lisa being human and Dracula being a vampire long before CVIII are the reason why Alucard is half-vampire, nowadays. Welcome contradictions are those who went by unresolved by any writer.

I'll start with the obvious one, and add up to this list as people post. My objective is to create an easy to access compendium of these so we can MAYBE create a Castlevania-wiki page for quick review. Here I go:

Real-world contradictions:

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-Lament of Innocence says Leon was fighting for the Church in the Crusades before 1094. Yet, the involvement of the Church on those battles starting with the First Crusade didn't happen until 1096. Important to point out is that a Crusade is not any skirmish or holy war against turks or muslims or anyone else, but battles specifically sanctioned by the Pope where the warriors are mostly christians. As the pope would claim, "a battle on behalf of Christ." Battles not sanctioned by a Pope are not Crusades. So, while there were battles leading to the Crusades before 1096, they were not Crusades since there was no official sanction of the Church (something Leon was after, as the intro of Lament clarifies, but was denied).

-In Castlevania 64/Legacy of Darkness which takes place in 1844, there are skeletons riding motorcycles and a portable gardening chainsaw wielded by a creature called "Gardener". Motorcycles weren't invented until 1885, and according to Wikipedia, gardening chainsaws were not invented until 1918.

-Several food items in SotN are not historically accurate, being inexistent in the forms they appear in the game for many years, such as Pizza and Hamburger.

-In Aria of Sorrow, the Positron Rifle says it fires "Positive electrons", something impossible as protons are always positive and electrons are always negative. A positron is not a "positive electron" but an antimatter counterpart of the electron.

In-game contradictions:

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-Dracula's revival cycle is stated to take 100 years. Yet Dracula has been revived numerous times in much less time than that.

-In SotN, Death is able to steal Alucard's equipment once, as a way to discourage him from pressing on. When Alucard finally fights Death, no explanation is given to why Death can't steal from Alucard again.

-Dracula wants to destroy humans, yet the enemies inside the castle are positioned from weaker to stronger, and the castle being a creature of chaos, takes on a shape that allows the hero to find his way up to Dracula instead of locking all the doors and placing the keys somewhere the hero can't reach it.

Also, "Dracula was a vampire while real Vlad III wasn't" isn't the type of contradiction I'm looking for. I'm looking more for historical issues that don't relate to the fantasy-elements invented for the Castlevania stories.

C'mon Scholar. I know you're DYING to post here.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

After heated arguments over here at the Dungeon and with a friend...
...
...C'mon Scholar. I know you're DYING to post here.

Let it be known I'm staying the hell away from this one. I've learned my lesson and am not falling for your clever bait. 

[theplottwist]

Let it be known I'm staying the hell away from this one. I've learned my lesson and am not falling for your clever bait. 

This is not bait. This is a thread where YOUR TRADE specifically is encouraged. Canon is not welcome in this thread 

[zangetsu468]

Okay so what was it about the year 1094, because both LOI and LOS were based in this year? Or just another element LOS borrowed from an existing franchise?

The most bleedingly obvious is CV64/ LOD, motorcycles were not invented until at least 1885, and a portable gardening chainsaw was not invented until c.1918 according to Wikipedia.

Okay these are retcons but Power of Sire and the Portrait in RoB clearly being Vlad III despite Iga's timeline stating Mathias changing his name to Vlad Tepes (which doesn't contradict SOTN or its manual) and hence my reasoning for him either assuming the figure of Vlad/ taking his throne eventually. (Shapeshifty bastard he was)

Nostradamus not predicting a solar eclipse in 2035 to my knowledge.

Positron Rifle firing positive electrons? Is that even possible?

[Just while we're dealing with AoS, Soma finds "the Legendary Sword of the Dragon Slayer", Hector gets a similar sword (Dragon Slayer) and kills the Wyvern, is he the Legendary Dragon Slayer?]

The last one is more of a contradiction, but Dracula is said to rise once every 100 years or there abouts. The prologue to RoB states something like 100 years and he was resurrected, yet it SotN he claims that he was "once again given flesh humans who wish to pay him tribute". Are centennial resurrections not automatic? If I'm not mistaken every 100 years Chaos augments in the hearts of men which will lead to a chain of events bringing Dracula's "Complete (centennial) resurrection" about. Contradiction or...?

[theplottwist]

Okay these are retcons but Power of Sire and the Portrait in RoB clearly being Vlad III despite Iga's timeline stating Mathias changing his name to Vlad Tepes (which doesn't contradict SOTN or its manual) and hence my reasoning for him either assuming the figure of Vlad/ taking his throne eventually. (Shapeshifty bastard he was)

Nostradamus not predicting a solar eclipse in 2035 to my knowledge.

Positron Rifle firing positive electrons? Is that even possible?

I added the LoD one, and the in-game contradiction of the 100 years rule (though I remember reading somewhere that Igarashi interpreted this rule differently. If I find the source, I'll bring it here.)

About Nostradamus: It's not mentioned that he made the 2035 prophecy. In fact, going by the ending of Judgment, it's implied that the prophecy was made AFTER Dracula's downfall:

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"Then prophecy became reality. Using a solar eclipse, Alucard succeeded in breaking Dracula's endless cycle of resurrection.

But then came a new prophecy... "In 2035, during a solar eclipse, a castle will arise in Japan..."

So Alucard infiltrated a top-secret Japanese government agency, and resumed his vigil..."

So, while this could only mean that the prophecy was interpreted and not made at this date, it still doesn't attribute it to Nostradamus.

Positron Rifle I don't know the answer. If someone could provide the science we need, please? EDIT: OK identified the issue with this one.

The painting of Dracula is indeed retcon, but you reminded me of the food items present in Castlevania SotN that weren't even real at the time.

[zangetsu468]

With Nostradamus though I meant that he didn't make that prophecy in real life. Or did he? 

[theplottwist]

With Nostradamus though I meant that he didn't make that prophecy in real life. Or did he?

Uh oh, yes, he didn't. Unless IGA had something up his sleeve, I don't believe so. I mean, I don't know of any Nostradamus prophecy mentioning 2035 in an eclipse, power inheriting or Dracula context. There are some interpreted to take place in 2035, but they don't speak of any of these things, not even in interpretations.

There is a VERY interesting one saying that a third antichrist will be born to poor parents in western Europe in 2035:

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From deep in the Western part of Europe
A child will be born, to poor parents
He will seduce the multitude with his Tongue
The noise of his reputation will grow in the Eastern kingdom.

But we know very well that neither Soma nor Graham were born in 2035. But I'll say this one would fit Graham's "cult building" skills.

To be honest, his 2036 prophecy sounds ONE HELL OF A LOT like what takes place in Dawn of Sorrow:

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A great King falls into the hands of a youngster
There is confusion around Easter time,
and a knife-blow
Long-captives, and St Elmo’s Fire
When three brothers wound and kill each other.

I mean, I could interpret "three brothers wounding and killing each other" as the Dark Lord Candidates ANY DAY OF THE WEEK. Knife blow? Dmitrii. King falling in the hands of a youngster? Soma in the hands of Celia (she's not even that old).

The wiki says he predicted the 2035 event, but there is not a single source for that, the prophecy is never atributed to Nostradamus, and Judgment seems to actually contradict it.

[zangetsu468]

Exactly what I thought. I had a book on Nostradamus that even covered his prophecies regarding aliens, UFO's and miscellaneous cryptic interpretations yet I never heard of a solar eclipse.

The third antichrist, "Mabus" is he not named?
I know the second was quite and accurate prediction; "Hister" referring to Hilter, not by name but a river which was near where Hilter was born.

[Ratty]

-In Castlevania 64/Legacy of Darkness which takes place in 1844, there are skeletons riding motorcycles and a portable gardening chainsaw wielded by a creature called "Gardener". Motorcycles weren't invented until 1885, and according to Wikipedia, gardening chainsaws were not invented until 1918.

-Several food items in SotN are not historically accurate, being inexistent in the forms they appear in the game for many years, such as Pizza and Hamburger.

I'm far from the first to say so, but these and many other seeming incongruities are easily explained by Alucard's reference to the Castle itself as "a creature of chaos". A constantly shifting (un)living being not subject to space and time as we understand them. Otherwise, the biggest plot hole would probably be why the castle looks/has a layout so different each time. Unless you suppose that there are several different castles, which aside from obvious examples like Bloodlines/Belmont's Revenge/Simon's Quest is a whole other can of worms.

I mean yeah, that's a handwave but eh XD. No reason not to keep going but be aware there's a built-in excuse for a lot of these lol.

[zangetsu468]

I'm far from the first to say so, but these and many other seeming incongruities are easily explained by Alucard's reference to the Castle itself as "a creature of chaos". A constantly shifting (un)living being not subject to space and time as we understand them. Otherwise, the biggest plot hole would probably be why the castle looks/has a layout so different each time. Unless you suppose that there are several different castles, which aside from obvious examples like Bloodlines/Belmont's Revenge/Simon's Quest is a whole other can of worms.

I mean yeah, that's a handwave but eh XD. No reason not to keep going but be aware there's a built-in excuse for a lot of these lol.

Is the "Villa" technically part of the Castle though? Stage 1 is the Castle Keep, but isn't it at the end of the Villa that you either drop into the underground sewer (in LOD, which is the definitive version of the game). When does it start becoming Castlevania or does it apply to all within the Castle keep?

[Dracula9]

The Crimson and Ebony stones being described as "failed" attempts at the Philosopher's Stone, despite both of them being proper phases of creation of a Philosopher's Stone (the Ebony Stone being the nigredo (blackening) phase, which is the first phase of creation; and the Crimson Stone being the rubedo (reddening/purpling) phase, which is basically the final phase and commemorates a successful creation of a pure Philosopher's Stone).

Basically, based on the real-world alchemy's four-coloring-phase process of creation, the Ebony stone is a Philosopher's Stone that just needs a little more work done on it, and the Crimson Stone IS a pure Philosopher's Stone.

I could argue the ever-loving fuck out of that concept being canonically supported, but that's for another thread and another time. 

[zangetsu468]

The Crimson and Ebony stones being described as "failed" attempts at the Philosopher's Stone, despite both of them being proper phases of creation of a Philosopher's Stone (the Ebony Stone being the nigredo (blackening) phase, which is the first phase of creation; and the Crimson Stone being the rubedo (reddening/purpling) phase, which is basically the final phase and commemorates a successful creation of a pure Philosopher's Stone).

Basically, based on the real-world alchemy's four-coloring-phase process of creation, the Ebony stone is a Philosopher's Stone that just needs a little more work done on it, and the Crimson Stone IS a pure Philosopher's Stone.

I could argue the ever-loving fuck out of that concept being canonically supported, but that's for another thread and another time. 

I've debated this before and I'm sure plottwist has heard it, that it's arguable dating back to Ancient Egypt of the Philosopher's Stone bring a powder. The powder is created by melting gold beyond 1000 degrees Celsius. 

In LOI the true goal of Alchemy was stated by a Rinaldo to be eternal life, the real PS was supposed to have anti-ageing properties but due to being made from gold it could only be consumed by the wealthy - mainly royals.

[Dracula9]

I'd like to see what source you have that dictates the creation of the Philosopher's Stone is melting gold into a powder, because I have never heard that method in any alchemic school of thought or manuscript of the process.

The Magnum Opus creation process almost always follows the four-stage changing of color, and is listed as a seven or twelve-step process in most cases (such exemptions as Samuel Norton's fourteen-step method do exist here and there).

Where the actual hell did you hear that melting gold so hot it becomes powder is the method of creation in alchemy's golden age during medieval times?

The only instance of ancient Egyptian alchemy that I can think of that is of any notable merit is the Emerald Tablet, but many of the associations that Tablet is said to have (most notably its relation to Hermes Trismegistus) didn't really become "big" until the medieval alchemy period.

Even so, the recipe for the Philosopher's Stone being laid out verbatim was not something that was ever done seriously in alchemy. That knowledge was believed to put one on par with the powers of the divine and was kept shrouded in stacked metaphors and layers of cryptic symbolism. "Melt some gold beyond this temperature and you have the Philosopher's Stone" not only defies the most widely-regarded processes of symbolic creation, but is not something any worthwhile alchemist of history would put to paper. There's no symbolism to it or infusion of spirituality (as alchemy's Magnum Opus was as spiritual a journey as it was scientific), there's no metaphor layering to cloud the method from anyone unable to decipher the riddles, and it just sounds silly because melting gold to make a thing that makes more gold just doesn't make much sense if you step back and really look at it.

That's something I'd expect to see a snake-oil "alchemist" claiming he has, and selling off his "recipe" for profit and making away with the money of his gullible buyers.

Also, no, the Stone isn't made purely out of gold, as gold is not something which can be considered the prima materia, and the purpose of the Philosopher's Stone was way more than extending lifespan to immortality--you have written accounts of it supposedly granting such abilities as flight, future-vision, conjuration, teleportation, base metal transmutation, incredible healing capability, knowledge of the essence of creation, etc. etc.

It wasn't a rock that made you live forever, there is way more shit that has been attributed to it. Eternal life and gold-transmuting are simply the most well-known two, because during medieval times when most people were dirt poor and didn't live long those two things sounded pretty damn good, and thus those two properties spread like wildfire while the other alleged powers/enhancements fell to the second slide of the presentation.

I'm far from the first to say so, but these and many other seeming incongruities are easily explained by Alucard's reference to the Castle itself as "a creature of chaos". A constantly shifting (un)living being not subject to space and time as we understand them. Otherwise, the biggest plot hole would probably be why the castle looks/has a layout so different each time. Unless you suppose that there are several different castles, which aside from obvious examples like Bloodlines/Belmont's Revenge/Simon's Quest is a whole other can of worms.

I mean yeah, that's a handwave but eh XD. No reason not to keep going but be aware there's a built-in excuse for a lot of these lol.

The trouble with using the "Creature of Chaos" explanation as a literal space free from standard time constraints (which isn't really stated AFAIK, it's just said that the castle changes its form with each new resurrection), is that if the castle can have shit from outside the "normal" time period...then:
A:) who or what is getting the stuff and putting it in the castle, let alone training the denizens within how to use it effectively?
B:) why hasn't Dracula just gotten ahold of some nukes and blown all the humans to bits, since he'll just resurrect a century later anyway?
C:) why hasn't St. Germain or Aeon or whoever else relating to time travel in the CV universe stepped in to try and suppress the outrageous amount of potential for fuckery in the timeline that a literal "yeah the rules don't apply within here at all and basically anything can pop up in here whenever because why not" space would cause?
D:) why are motorcycles, chainsaws, and burgers the only things to pop up? Surely there'd be a lot of other shit to randomly appear--Harleys, Ash Williams' hand, and some Big Macs are oddly specific things to just show up.

The "time-exemption" thing isn't ever stated in regards to the Castle to the best of my knowledge, and even if it has been it still leaves way more questions than answers.

[Jazz Paladin Productions]

The "time-exemption" thing isn't ever stated in regards to the Castle to the best of my knowledge, and even if it has been it still leaves way more questions than answers.

I remember Konami taking some heat for the skeletons on motorcycles back in the day. I seem to remember an official interview with them where they stated on-the-record that the castle/count had a limited ability to ability to peer into the future because of an ability to dwell outside of the constraints of normal time. Consequently, he could gain access to technologies that would otherwise be without invention as-of-yet. So 50 years isn't much of a stretch from what I recall, but a few hundred is, according to what I remember reading. I think it was in a Nintendo power or something...

Another blatant paradox though, if there are in fact limitations to this form of technological acquisition--if the count can obtain motorcycles early, but not nukes...how is it that he got access to Mary Shelley's Monster hundreds of years in advance, despite the fact that the creature is also very fictitious? 

[Dracula9]

I've not heard of this interview. Do you by chance know of any source that has it posted? I'd love to read it directly.