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Offline Super Waffle

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Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
« on: January 15, 2017, 11:26:45 AM »
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We know the games make a big deal out of Dracula being the Lord of All Darkness and whatever, but... where's good old Lucifer in all of this? Doesn't anyone care about him anyone?

Offline theplottwist

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Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2017, 11:40:30 AM »
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We know the games make a big deal out of Dracula being the Lord of All Darkness and whatever, but... where's good old Lucifer in all of this? Doesn't anyone care about him anyone?

Dracula is what would equate to Lucifer/Satan on the old canon. If there is a Lucifer (a sword named after him appears on Lament) or a Satan, they're below Dracula on the ranking of threats.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 11:46:11 AM by theplottwist »
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Offline TheouAegis

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Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2017, 01:36:48 PM »
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Except for some of the later games, whoever said Lucifer even exists in the CV universe? He's in Lords of Shadow, but that's a reboot series. And there's even debate within Judeo-Christian studies over whether there even is a demon called Lucifer/Satan. Some say Lucifer was a mistranslation and just a reference to an ancient king. As for Satan, it's argued that Satan is a class of angel or a job title and not necessarily a demon. Most of the demons people even know of were Sumerian deities, not Judeo-Christian deities. If there can be only one god above all, then all other gods must be delegated to demon or angel status. So there's no need for Satan/Lucifer to even be in Castlevania as anything special, because he's not.
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Offline Lumi Kløvstad

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Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2017, 02:20:30 PM »
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One of the things I liked about Dawn of Sorrow was Celia's views and how, ultimately, they are subverted.

Celia believed that for God to be good, he must be opposed by a being of perfect evil, but Dawn of Sorrow spends much of the game proving her wrong, mostly by arguing that such a perfectly being doesn't and shouldn't exist at all. The closest thing we come to seeing a truly perfectly evil villain in the series is probably Menace in the same game, which is fitting, as its an artificial distilling of every single monster in (the fake) Dracula's Castle at that time into a single form.

There is no Satan or Lucifer in Castlevania because the only force that would go so far as to create such a being are humans. With very specific (potential) exceptions for the crap pulled by Death in canon (and it should be said we don't really know all that much about his original motivations or purpose), every act of evil in Castlevania is perpetrated in some way by humans. Even Walter, the progenitor villain of the franchise, began as a human. And my example of a perfectly evil being, Menace, was the result of a strictly human endeavor.

The closest thing in the series to a proper "Devil figure" would be Chaos, which on top of being a total plot cop out is left very much unexplained. We know Chaos can influence people very strongly, and we know that the Castle is something of an Earthly manifestation of it, but unlike in Lords of Shadow 2's Inner Dracula, we don't really know if Chaos is even intelligent or sapient, or indeed whether or not it is serving a purpose intended for it by God himself. It may easily by that Chaos is doing exactly what God means it to do, essentially helping to bring the "impurities" on man to the surface to be worked out, like silver.

But, in light of the answers we concretely have and the vagueries of everything else, I conclude that the universe doesn't need a special opposing force to God. It already has us, and according to Castlevania, we do a fine enough job of it ourselves.
How not to be a dark lord: the answer to that is a terribly interesting answer that involves an almost Jedi-like adherence to keeping oneself under control and finding ways to be true to yourself in a way that doesn't encourage the worst parts of you to become dangerously exaggerated and instead feeds your better nature. Also, protip: don't fuck with Alchemy or strike up any deals with ancient Japanese Shinigami gods no matter how tempting the deal or how suavely dressed the Shinigami is.

Offline mgfcortez

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Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2017, 02:37:16 PM »
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when i was going to do my fan game the last boss would be the devil you find out that really death was the devil working behind Dracula because the devil couldn't act on human kind because God would act so he used humans because they have free will and made a pact with Dracula cause of his loss of his wife and he hated God for it he was easy to control and God would not act because of free will so he could take over the world thew his puppet Dracula and the Belmont's played into his hand as well by putting a human soul in the whip they also gave evil the power to rise every 100 years and bring Dracula back that's just a quick over version of it would had been a lot more story but gave up 

Offline Lumi Kløvstad

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Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2017, 02:42:38 PM »
+1
when i was going to do my fan game the last boss would be the devil you find out that really death was the devil working behind Dracula because the devil couldn't act on human kind because God would act so he used humans because they have free will and made a pact with Dracula cause of his loss of his wife and he hated God for it he was easy to control and God would not act because of free will so he could take over the world thew his puppet Dracula and the Belmont's played into his hand as well by putting a human soul in the whip they also gave evil the power to rise every 100 years and bring Dracula back that's just a quick over version of it would had been a lot more story but gave up

That's... fine I suppose. And VERY short on punctuation marks. Seriously, that was physically painful to read without punctuation. But fan game plots also don't factor into the canon. Generally.

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How not to be a dark lord: the answer to that is a terribly interesting answer that involves an almost Jedi-like adherence to keeping oneself under control and finding ways to be true to yourself in a way that doesn't encourage the worst parts of you to become dangerously exaggerated and instead feeds your better nature. Also, protip: don't fuck with Alchemy or strike up any deals with ancient Japanese Shinigami gods no matter how tempting the deal or how suavely dressed the Shinigami is.

Offline theplottwist

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Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2017, 07:20:56 PM »
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Celia believed that for God to be good, he must be opposed by a being of perfect evil, but Dawn of Sorrow spends much of the game proving her wrong, mostly by arguing that such a perfectly being doesn't and shouldn't exist at all. The closest thing we come to seeing a truly perfectly evil villain in the series is probably Menace in the same game, which is fitting, as its an artificial distilling of every single monster in (the fake) Dracula's Castle at that time into a single form.

In fact, Celia appears to have a point. If we are to believe what she says, she explains that "the power of the Demon Realm is getting weaker" due to the lack of a Demon King to control it. Arikado, at the end, says that the Demon King is indeed the opposite of God (What God?) and that it may be necessary -- i just doesn't have to be Soma.

The game doesn't tell you what this means or how does "the power of the Demon Realm getting weaker" factor on there being a perfectly good God or not, but the ending does imply that the battle for the throne is still on, but that Soma doesn't have to actually take part on it.
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Offline zangetsu468

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Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2017, 11:10:01 PM »
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the Demon King is indeed the opposite of God (What God?)

God in the traditional sense I've assumed. After all the Belmont arsenal of weapons with the VK at the helm can mostly be considered Holy.
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Offline X

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Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2017, 12:08:52 AM »
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In the original Castlevania, before IGA added to it, there was no Satan/Lucifer figure as the embodiment of all evil. Dracula took on that role and that was fine by me. It didn't need to be any deeper then that. It worked. It's what made the series a classic to begin with. Dracula was the top villain; the head honcho. The very thing that cults craved and innocent peoples' feared. Then we have the heroes representing God and humanity; The Belmont family. The occasional sidekick would partake in the hunt along with said Belmont, but in the end the Belmonts would always conquer Dracula's evil with good. And the Vampirekiller "mystic whip" was not some alchemical creation with a tainted soul, but a holy relic to be wielded in their never-ending crusade against Dracula's evil. It didn't need to be anything more then that.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 12:10:56 AM by X »
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Offline zangetsu468

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Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2017, 12:20:40 AM »
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In the original Castlevania, before IGA added to it, there was no Satan/Lucifer figure as the embodiment of all evil. Dracula took on that role and that was fine by me. It didn't need to be any deeper then that. It worked. It's what made the series a classic to begin with. Dracula was the top villain; the head honcho. The very thing that cults craved and innocent peoples' feared. Then we have the heroes representing God and humanity; The Belmont family. The occasional sidekick would partake in the hunt along with said Belmont, but in the end the Belmonts would always conquer Dracula's evil with good. And the Vampirekiller "mystic whip" was not some alchemical creation with a tainted soul, but a holy relic to be wielded in their never-ending crusade against Dracula's evil. It didn't need to be anything more then that.

Hang on. Wasn't Satan's Ring in one of the Igavanias incorrectly translated from "Dark Lord's Ring" in the Japanese version? (or something to this effect).

I also don't actually believe that Chaos, by nature is "inherently evil", it's simply chaos. It can be an influencing factor in people committing evil deeds (like the virgin sacrifice at the start of Rondo), however, it is the men themselves who crave evil - and Chaos itself is augmented in the heart of man approximately every 100 years (with enough poetic license to make it give or take a decade or so) which leads to a chain of events causing Dracula's resurrection.

The biggest example of Chaos itself not being "pure, unmotivated evil" lies with Mathias. Mathias committed evil deeds against Leon and Sara, that was wrong (similar to what Griffith did in Berserk, only probably not as bad) but he did this to curse God. He wanted to reject God and live forever. It was only after the humans burned Lisa that he started waging his war against humanity.

Although CV's God I do see in the traditional sense, I think it's more of a balancing act between God and Chaos from a more holistic perspective. Alucard says something to this effect in AoS or DoS, that for God to be good "evil"(Chaos) has to exist.
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Offline theplottwist

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Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2017, 12:25:37 AM »
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God in the traditional sense I've assumed. After all the Belmont arsenal of weapons with the VK at the helm can mostly be considered Holy.

I'll try not diving too much on the theology of Castlevania because I don't fully understand it and this is not the appropriate thread:

Looking through the canon, as it stands today, it is clear to me (TO ME) that the christian god is not the top god. It looks more like there is a pantheon of gods working independently from each other, and that "Holy" is an energy channeled from them by their believers/related symbols on Earth. The Vampire Killer channels holy from the christian god (maybe, but let's keep it at this for the sake of this response), Claimh Solais channels holy from whatever Irish god it belonged to/made it, the Vhibuti draws holy from the hindu gods, the Agunea from the Slavic heaven, etc etc.

And that's not getting to the part where it was a ceremony chanelling power from Shinto gods the thing to finally deal with Dracula and his castle.

It seems to me that, when the character talks about the Demon King being the opposite of God, they are giving more a description based on what they personally believe than what it really is. The Demon King may aswell be the enemy of the entire holy pantheon, but the character calls it "God" in reference to one single god because that's what they believe in. The Belmonts are clearly catholic and may be drawing their holy power from the christian god, but there are more "holy" being drawn by different people of different beliefs on the CV world. And we know the christian god is not a fan of polytheism.

Castlevania may be a case of All Myths Are True. In this case, on the CV universe, you play by X god's rules, and in return this god grants you holy power to fight evil.

EDIT: I know Mathias declaring war against god will come up, but you have to understand that Mathias is coming from the exact same place as everyone else: his own beliefs. Him as Dracula may have become a threat to all that is holy, and not just the god he believes in.

It's like when people blame "corruption" or "injustice" for the society's shortcomings as if these two concepts were a single entity to be targeted, when in fact these faceless concepts are being run by quite a large number of very specific issues/people/smaller institutions.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 12:45:56 AM by theplottwist »
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Offline zangetsu468

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Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2017, 12:52:52 AM »
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Castlevania may be a case of All Myths Are True. In this case, on the CV universe, you play by X god's rules, and in return this god grants you holy power to fight evil.

It's possible that it plays by the 'all beliefs' card, as do other franchises such as God of War.

EDIT: I know Mathias declaring war against god will come up, but you have to understand that Mathias is coming from the exact same place as everyone else: his own beliefs. Him as Dracula may have become a threat to all that is holy, and not just the god he believes in.

The Mathias scenario still works though, as he and Leon were Catholic. Mathias' revenge against God was the God he believed in. Mathias' fall from grace parallels Lucifer's fall from grace. Different people believe in different gods, each game has its own context. 

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Offline SecretWeapon

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Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2017, 03:17:58 AM »
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Idk about you but i understood DoS plot as "Yeah God wont be perfectly good but we can deal with that" not as "Celia is wrong"

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Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2017, 09:57:44 AM »
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Quote
Hang on. Wasn't Satan's Ring in one of the Igavanias incorrectly translated from "Dark Lord's Ring" in the Japanese version? (or something to this effect).

There was no satan's ring in the original Castlevania. There was Dracula's ring in CV II but it wasn't satan's ring.

Quote
I also don't actually believe that Chaos, by nature is "inherently evil", it's simply chaos.

And that is exactly what Chaos is; The opposite to Order. Both exists simultaneously in our universe. Chaos is not evil nor is Order good. Both are merely opposites to one-another, yet both are absolutely necessary for the existence and continuation of our universe. Sadly many CV fans don't understand this as due to translation errors in the IGA games. It wasn't made clear and so they think that the final boss in AoS is Chaos itself. In truth it's not. It is a Chaotic creature, but not Chaos itself as it is absolutely impossible to see pure Chaos let alone destroy pure Chaos. If it was Chaos that was destroyed in AoS then the universe in which the series takes place in would no longer exist. It would literally collapse into nothing due to imbalance.
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Re: Where does the devil fit into the whole Castlevania mythos?
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2017, 10:45:29 AM »
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There are certainly devil-like beings in the Castlevania universe, being references as early as Cv3, when the manual says that Dracula made a pact with an ancient evil deity.  Now Lucifer himself?  Never really referenced, I always liked the idea that he was a fallen angel who became the dark lord previously to Dracula, but that is just my head canon.
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13104670/1/Castlevania-Birth-of-the-Dragon

Dracula was not always a monster. He was once a man named Mathias Cronqvist. A flawed, conflicted, genius of a man. How did the educated, aristocratic, crusader who piously served the church become a vampire, and eventually the Dark Lord himself, the opposing force to God? From a very young age terrors and tragedy shaped the man into the king of all evil. This is his story.

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