Topic: Canon that should just be out and out ignored because it's horrible

[Lumi Kløvstad]

So I finally finished reading the Ricordanza novel.

Well, I say I finished reading it but the structure and plot are so effing convoluted that though my brain perceived words, I cannot truly say I ever really "began" to read it. I suffered through it. I endured it. It was the worst reading experience of my life, and that's coming from someone who read 50 Shades of Gray out of morbid curiosity when that was a popular book for WHO THE HELL KNOWS WHY?!

I vote Ricordanza be struck from Fan-Canon. The charge: it's completely utterly entirely horrible in every way a book can be and no future fan should ever feel like they should in any way read it because it is somehow "canon" to the Aria of Sorrow games. It's not even a bad Castlevania book. It's just a terrible book in general.

Torchwood Fans did it with Miracle Day, Power Rangers fans did it with Ninja Storm, and Doctor Who fans do with with quite a few episodes, but Love and Monsters seems to take the vote overwhelmingly every time it's brought up.

"THAT NEVER HAPPENED STOP SAYING IT DID." goes the cry from devoted fans who care about the honor and quality of their chosen fandom when someone less educated mentions the verboten material.

By the same token, I think we should be treating the Ricordanza novel this way. It adds nothing really interesting or vital to the canon, it's not really available outside Japan (and even there it was a minor release) and it's just badly and confusingly written to begin with. It makes the writing quality and plot of Lords of Shadow 2 look like Shakespeare or Chaucer by comparison, and I don't often get to say that.

Like Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain, it throws a few stupid twists in there except like in Phantom Pain, they are contrived and made simply to be twists without any aforethought by the author about how this affects the rest of the canon. And unlike in Phantom Pain, they are TINY and insignificant by comparison, so why make them at all?

I could write pages more about how much I detested this experience, but the homework is done.

My final argument is that it is so bad we are better off pretending it just doesn't exist.

This probably isn't the only thing in the Iga canon that should probably be thrown out -- I'm sure you guys have your own ideas and I encourage you to bring them forward -- but in my mind it's easily the worst offender of the lot.

Let's just prosecute this crap for being horrible and get on with our lives.

[Claimh Solais]

My thoughts on Ricordanza are exactly the same as the Devil May Cry 4: Deadly Fortune novel.

Horribly awful, bordering the quality of the worst of the worst fan-fiction, and I could write something better even back when I was in the sixth grade. Hell, my sixth grade fan fiction WAS better than Ricordanza, and my fan fiction was awful (complete with weird shit like a love sub-plot between Soma and Charlotte).

[X]

Never read the novel since you guys are saving me the trouble,..and the pain, lol! My condolences comrades.

[Shiroi Koumori]

I never had trouble understanding it by the time I did the final draft of the translation. That was my 2nd reading.
I think the structure is so typically cyclical Asian that might make Western audiences shake their heads. No wonder it was never exported out of Japan. Then again, I've read lots of other Japanese stuff that has the same format. The author assumes you are able to follow with him.
If it isn't for you, please don't strike it out of canon for everyone else who gets it.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

I never had trouble understanding it by the time I did the final draft of the translation. That was my 2nd reading.
I think the structure is so typically cyclical Asian that might make Western audiences shake their heads. No wonder it was never exported out of Japan. Then again, I've read lots of other Japanese stuff that has the same format. The author assumes you are able to follow with him.
If it isn't for you, please don't strike it out of canon for everyone else who gets it.

It's not even that it's unintelligible or even very asian. I love the Parasite Eve novel^* which shares many of those qualities you list, being that it hails from that same school of writing. Ricordanza is just a badly written story that adds nothing of value to the canon and screws with things that make other works in the same timeline less easily followed and disguises these things as "explanations".

These are the exact same sins that Torchwood Miracle Day committed, and Torchwood fans seldom speak of that story arc in anything but negative tones, and only when they must speak of it at all. Now, some people liked Miracle Day, but they are in a very clear minority, and most fans have simply come to the shared understanding that Miracle Day just plain didn't even happen, frequently reducing its status in fanon to, at most, a fever dream of Gwen Cooper after the events of Children of Earth.

I find it only fitting that something that commits the same narrative sins be given the same punishment.

This isn't a knock on you. Like I say so often with Lords of Shadow: if you like it, you like it. I'm not gonna judge you for liking it, but I will judge the hell out of the work itself.

Because, again, it's terrible.

^*it's actually better than the games based on it, imo, though the first two games were brilliant.

[The Bizarre Trooper]

I vote Ricordanza be struck from Fan-Canon. The charge: it's completely utterly entirely horrible in every way a book can be and no future fan should ever feel like they should in any way read it because it is somehow "canon" to the Aria of Sorrow games. It's not even a bad Castlevania book. It's just a terrible book in general.

I honestly like Ricodanza of the God's abyss but i do not like the LoS trilogy (ESPECIALLYLOS2!) but if you want to know how i feel honestly about Castlevania of a whole and what i consider canon and non-canon as a Castlevania-holic fan... weeeelllllll.... *cough* http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php/topic,8712.30.html *cough*

Well if you want to take out Ricodanza of the god's abyss out of the fan-canon, pardon my curiosity, what's your personal fan/head canon concerning the classic  Castlevania timeline?

[Nagumo]

I don't know what the quality of the original Japanese prose is since I assume a lot of that got lost in translation. That's pretty much impossible to avoid anyway.  A translation with good English prose requires the translator to have the skills of an author and being a native speaker certainly helps, too. So I can't really comment on the writing. Though I would be interested in knowing what Shiroi thinks about it.

About the contents of the novel itself, there were certainly things that remember liking about it. I believe they mentioned all the governments in the world know about Dracula's existence in secret. I thought that was kind of neat. There were some other interesting lore tidbits here and there. It also tried to make sense out of Hammer being a merchant (at least the part about how he even obtained all that stuff). Most importantly, it felt like it fitted very well in Castlevania universe despite it being a novel. A lot of authors of video game tie-ins fall in the trap of either following the game mechanics too closely (monsters dropping hearts, pretending the characters have an actual health meter, etc) or making it feel too disconnected from the games. This novel struck a very good balance between the two.

As for the things I didn't like, making Death the main character was kind of lame. I think he is a character that is interesting when used sparingly. I believe he also acts a bit honourable in this novel when he acts like a stereotypical villain in the games. Also, absolutely nothing about Orlox's backstory.

 

[Lumi Kløvstad]

all the governments in the world know about Dracula's existence in secret. I thought that was kind of neat.

Except Aria of Sorrow and to a lesser extent Dawn of Sorrow, Portrait of Ruin, and Order of Ecclesia all implied this at varying points. Hell, it's essentially part of the premise of OOE if you read between the lines even a little -- all those splinter groups trying to beat Dracula needed funding from somewhere and the Church can't fund all of them. Governments would be swifter to shut down a failed and expensive project than the church would. This is especially the case because the Vatican seems to know something approaching the truth of Dracula's original identity, and failing that, they just have a better idea of how dangerous he really is if left unchecked.

Most importantly, it felt like it fitted very well in Castlevania universe despite it being a novel. A lot of authors of video game tie-ins fall in the trap of either following the game mechanics too closely (monsters dropping hearts, pretending the characters have an actual health meter, etc) or making it feel too disconnected from the games. This novel struck a very good balance between the two.

The best examples I've seen of this skillful execution are the two Devil May Cry light novels by Shin-Ya Goikeda -- they really felt like Devil May Cry stories, especially the second one which explains how Dante goes from being his devil may care trash talking self to the stone-faced man of few words in DMC2: he had to kill an Evil To The Core version of Trish in battle and it's heavily suggested this rattled him emotionally for several months to a year at least and DMC2 takes place in that span in which he's essentially suffering from PTSD but he soldiers on anyway -- it also explains why he's something of a death seeker in his ending cutscene.

Reading the Devil May Cry light novels really sheds a lot of light on Dante's past and what made him the man he was -- something the games seldom touch on, and never do in any real detail except for Dante's relationship with Vergil in DMC3.

I kind of wish the Ricordanza book had found the time to do any of that with Death, Olrox, or preferably both. Hell, some insight into Soma Cruz (who is barely in the book at all) would have been nicer still.

I believe he also acts a bit honourable in this novel when he acts like a stereotypical villain in the games. Also, absolutely nothing about Orlox's backstory.

That's another gripe. Death feels a little like a completely different character to me in this. It would have been nice if it had been justified like Harmony of Dissonance did (albeit HOD did it indirectly, but it made Death come off as a strategic mastermind to me). And Olrox remains a semi-frustrating mystery as he has always been.

I think the worst part though is that the book just felt like wasted space to me --here they had an opportunity to write something really cool: stories set in a (finally!) Post-Dracula world. What does that world look like? How does this affect the balance of good vs evil? What about all that stuff Saint Germaine was talking about that took place in the distant future? Couldn't we have gotten a cameo from him since his plotline in Curse ended up going... well... nowhere and straight into a cliffhanger that is never addressed at all by future stories? Why couldn't this have been the story to address that?

There's a whole bunch of cool stuff this could have been, but wasn't, and what we got instead was unnecessary, confusing, poorly written and just... ugh.

I'm going in circles here -- it's just not good and if you're reading this thread and you are some kind of completionist who MUST CONSUME everything in the franchise for some reason, just have it described to you in detail by someone who read it and enjoyed it. You'll be better off that way.

Fortunately, this is also at the ass-end of the timeline chronology-wise, so if we just make a clean incision just after Dawn of Sorrow ends, the prior status quo is preserved and we incur no changes to the rest of the canon.

I think that's the best canon tumor removal operation I've yet seen.

[theplottwist]

-SNIP- not worth it. Any mod is free to delete this message.

[Claimh Solais]

If it isn't for you, please don't strike it out of canon for everyone else who gets it.

I don't think any piece of media is that bad for me to outright take it out of canon, but I don't really have a headcanon myself. I usually just follow the official canon of anything. Ricordanza doesn't really contradict anything nor is it contradicted by anything so I consider it canon.

I don't like it, but if someone else does, more power to ya.

The best examples I've seen of this skillful execution are the two Devil May Cry light novels by Shin-Ya Goikeda -- they really felt like Devil May Cry stories, especially the second one which explains how Dante goes from being his devil may care trash talking self to the stone-faced man of few words in DMC2: he had to kill an Evil To The Core version of Trish in battle and it's heavily suggested this rattled him emotionally for several months to a year at least and DMC2 takes place in that span in which he's essentially suffering from PTSD but he soldiers on anyway -- it also explains why he's something of a death seeker in his ending cutscene.

Reading the Devil May Cry light novels really sheds a lot of light on Dante's past and what made him the man he was -- something the games seldom touch on, and never do in any real detail except for Dante's relationship with Vergil in DMC3.

I'm so glad someone else read these books. They're a pair of novels that I wholeheartedly enjoy, even though the plot twist on Gilver was kind of dumb. Could have at least come up with a more creative name for him.

But I consider those to be video game novels done right. It's just a shame that DMC3 pretty much contradicts most of the first book's plot, since that one was largely superior than the second to me.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

It's just a shame that DMC3 pretty much contradicts most of the first book's plot, since that one was largely superior than the second to me.

I never really found a contradiction tbh. I view it as a prequel to DMC3, which Dante even alludes to in-game when he mentions off the cuff that "It's been more than a year since we last met."

There's some minor stuff, but all of it can be pretty easily handwaved. Also, the book was the origin of Dante's love of strawberry sundaes, which is fully canon as of the anime interlude, so I mean obviously the book stands. [/sarcasm] [/OR IS IT?!]

[Claimh Solais]

I never really found a contradiction tbh. I view it as a prequel to DMC3, which Dante even alludes to in-game when he mentions off the cuff that "It's been more than a year since we last met."

It's been a while since I last read it, but I vaguely remember the epilogue of the book (which is the opening to DMC1) stating that a few months had passed since the events of the book. So if the book took place before DMC3, then Dante's line there contradicts that. Some dialogue changes here and there in both the book and the game would easily fix any contradictions, but for now I just mostly consider the first book non-canon (MOSTLY. I like Dante's relationships in the book, as well as the origin of where he received Ebony & Ivory).

EDIT: Didn't pay attention and accidentally typed my response inside the quote block. Whoops.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

It's been a while since I last read it, but I vaguely remember the epilogue of the book (which is the opening to DMC1) stating that a few months had passed since the events of the book. So if the book took place before DMC3, then Dante's line there contradicts that. Some dialogue changes here and there in both the book and the game would easily fix any contradictions, but for now I just mostly consider the first book non-canon (MOSTLY. I like Dante's relationships in the book, as well as the origin of where he received Ebony & Ivory).

EDIT: Didn't pay attention and accidentally typed my response inside the quote block. Whoops.

Well, if it helps, for a long time Capcom's official stance on the novels was a sort of broad strokes canon: they were canon with the games save for the specific points of contention, in which event canon ceded to the games, which is in general how I think canon should be handled.

[Shiroi Koumori]

I don't know what the quality of the original Japanese prose is since I assume a lot of that got lost in translation. That's pretty much impossible to avoid anyway.  A translation with good English prose requires the translator to have the skills of an author and being a native speaker certainly helps, too. So I can't really comment on the writing. Though I would be interested in knowing what Shiroi thinks about it.

Disclaimer: I AM NOT A NATIVE JAPANESE SPEAKER!
The story was kind of simple to translate and I don't think much is lost on the actual words itself although maybe some emphasis were lost I suppose. But the issue here for western audiences is the way the story was written.
Here's a sample of page one of the novel.

If someone can better translate that, feel free to do so.

Oh and by the way, the novel isn't really a novel but is actually a light novel aka a longer short story that makes for lighter reading. You guys are analyzing this way too much. And IGA gave a lot of leeway to the author to do as he pleases.

[AlexCalvo]

Well, if it helps, for a long time Capcom's official stance on the novels was a sort of broad strokes canon: they were canon with the games save for the specific points of contention, in which event canon ceded to the games, which is in general how I think canon should be handled.

It is canon.  The DMC4 special edition tin case shows a close up of Dante's gun, they have "For Tony Redgrave" ingraved into them.  Dante only ever uses that name in the first novel, it's what the gun maker knows him by.