Topic: Exolutionary Steps to make Metroidvanis better...?

[Kusanagi]

That would also be like Zelda.  In the old Zelda games, you took one heart of damage and would be sent back to the beginning of the pit.  It wouldn't be too hard to implement.
In the 3D Zelda games, Link falls, screams, you get a weird sound, screen fades to black, and you come back to the room you're in with a heart's worth of health missing.
They even did this in Lords of Shadow, where after a failed jump, you'd come back just prior to that jump, with less health.

Exactly ^^ Wouldn't be that hard at all to do for the metroidvania games and still make it feel natural.

Leveling up might not be necessary or optimum, but it does give you the opportunity to not only get totally lost in a castle of undead, but to develop a kind of special attachment to one area of the castle, haunting it if you will... while your greed for power slowly consumes your (very real) life, you might even start thinking those statues by the wall could be talking while your not looking...

Well a playthrough of a metroidvania game can be done in whatever way the gamer prefers. There will be basic rules as to how to complete the game, but the way each player goes about it will be (even slightly) different from one another. For as long as they enjoy the game, thats all that will truly matter.

One thing we can't forget is that we do also need to be responsible and do what we need to in real life.

Just a tid bit, since you did mention how much of our real time it consumes xD

[Alutwon]

I look at Sotn, Harmony of Dissonance, and CotM. All three of those games left a lasting impression on me. The thing each of them have in common is how they relate to the source material(the 3 nes cv). Although game play is slightly different from the source, much of the same game is present in the atmosphere, hauntingly upbeat music, and the overall dark presentation of these 3 metroid style games. Honestly what I think the series needs rather than to move forward is to take a few steps backwards and pick up where these three games left off.

[The Silverlord]

Level design.

The foreground action seems uninspired at times.  I think the rooms can simply feel like a series of boxes or corridors with a standard platform arrangement applied (or none at all).  There’s very little sign of personality or uniqueness in rooms.  Enemies are copy/pasted, sometimes feeling out of their environment/habitat.
I accept the problem with the Metroidvania formula is that since the game is so large, it cannot be easy to put craft and love into every single screen/area of the game.  And the backgrounds are beautiful, work has gone in there, but it’s just they feel at times disconnected from whatever action is going on in the foreground.  Another area, new background, new music, but hey, same old boring room layout/platforms.
We all also know the drill: kill boss, collect double-jump item, backtrack and proceed to new area.   Rinse, repeat.  People have been complaining about Zelda formula for years and it’s the same with our old Metroidvania.

How to remedy?  Not easy.  I think, let’s try and get out of the angular map style, see more gradients ala Ghouls N' Ghosts.  Try and put some character and imagination into areas and sections, a bit more craft and love . . . or something.

[Rejechted]

First time lurker, first time poster.

I was googling for metroidvania RPG articles/threads/whatever, as it is relevant to the interests of my small but hopefully up-and-coming studio.  I'm working on what I guess you could say is a game of the Metroidvania genre.  We're focusing on two aspects of the game that seem to often be lacking, while still maintaining the expansive world, the need for backtracking, and pseudo-linear progression.

1. Interesting enemies and level design.  As previous posters have said, while the large, expansive worlds are nice, they are the same each time around because the combat tends to fall flat on its face.  Sure some later bosses might have seemingly unavoidable abilities that put the pressure on (Ridley 2nd form from super metroid, I'm talking to you), but overall playing through the game again beyond going for all the collectibles becomes naught but nostalgia.  Our game AI features a finite state machine for each enemy, allowing them to be "assisting", "idle", "aggressive", "weakened", to name a few examples of possibilities, allowing us to govern their behaviors based on these states, removing the need for cookie cutter situations.  Couple this with cleverly designed rooms that promote clever decision making to take down enemies and we'll have something very interesting indeed.

2. Loot, and elements from games like borderlands.  The second thing that I don't think I've ever seen done in 2D that we are shooting for is four playable classes, interesting skill trees (so that you aren't spamming your basic attack for the entire game), and the real ability to define your combat experience based on your playstyle.  Want to play a character that can slow enemies, and then throw them against the wall when they get close to you?  Play as a Cyro/Telekenetic Psion.  Want to get in the enemy's face and do cool combos with a sword?  Go for a technique Enforcer.  In the end, all of the classes will have to be balanced and feel great as you are playing through the game... but it gives the player the illusion of choice and adds replay value.  Couple that with diablo II style item generation and you'll be playing it over and over.

I didn't mean for this to sound like a sales pitch so please don't take it the wrong way.  I'm just excited to share our ideas for how we think the metroidvania genre could be enhanced, namely by making the combat a little less button-mashy, and adding some of the RPG elements we've come to know and love in some newer games such as borderlands and fallout, without the need for flashy 3D graphics.

[The Silverlord]

Point 1 sounds a bit like what Shadow Complex achieved.  The AI was reasonably good and made the player adopt a more cautious approach to the game.  It wasn’t all combat: enemies reacted to your presence if detected.  You could turn to stealth, turn your flashlight off and try find an alternative route.  You could wait until enemies were in certain places and then carefully time your movement/attack. Or, just go gung-ho all-out attack.

I seem to recall enemies alerted to your presence could chase/follow you into neighbouring rooms too, or would at least sit by doorways when you tried to go back in again (until the alert died down)?  Felt slightly more realistic than stepping out and back into the room, “oh look, the enemies have reset back to their original positions”.

Mind, in a Castlevania sense I don’t know how easy it would be to incorporate more AI in your average skeleton and merman, but be good to see something like ghosts chasing you through the walls of rooms or something . . . perhaps give a bit more life to the castle and feel that you’re not bound by a rigid room structure.

The playable classes is a very interesting idea.  Balancing them won’t be easy but it’d be a great thing to behold I’m sure.  I used to love Magic Sword, where you could rescue a prisoner and they’d team up with you co-op style.  Each had a different class and did different things to try and aid you.  They also had their own health and level stats.

Good luck to you and your team with the game!  Drop us a line if you’re needing any testers! : )

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

Metroid: Zero Mission did the "Alerted Enemies Chase You" thing really really well.

[X]

Metroid: Zero Mission did the "Alerted Enemies Chase You" thing really really well.

God, those were annoying! But I felt much better once I got my suit then promptly slaughtered them pirates 

[Munchy]

God, those were annoying! But I felt much better once I got my suit then promptly slaughtered them pirates 

Those bastards at Nintendo need to remake Return of Samus already.

[KaZudra]

Those bastards at Nintendo need to remake Return of Samus already.

that or Other M: Renegade Edtition which cuts out all those Stupid talking scenes that ruin the character

[Flame]

Off topic metroid stuff

(click to show/hide)

It wasnt the talking scenes that ruined the character. It was the delivery and some of the writing.

The actress has the emotional range of a toaster.

Also, Samus never really had a character. She never talked, and the only glimpses we got of her character were a few interactions with the environment. or someone talking to her- She never said anything though. For the most part, her "character" is the player's imagination. The sky's the limit. the music atmosphere and the fact that she doesnt talk gave players their own ideas on her personality.

Other M however, is the first game where she speaks with a voice. And actually, Fusion did it forst and I dont see anyone complaining there. That one also had her all broody and narrating. And the Manga already well documented her PTSD issues. And while she may not have flinched at seeing Ridley oher times, there comes a time when the straw breaks the camel's back. After so many repeated defeats and DEATHS of him- including the destruction of Zebes, which was supposed to have wiped him out for good with no way to revive him- There he is. AGAIN. Symbolically  right out of the fiery pits of hell. Its the realization that she just cannot free herself of him that gets her. Not that hes there, but that despite her best efforts and the destruction of the planet she called home with him on it, he still came back.

[KaZudra]

Off topic metroid stuff

(click to show/hide)

It wasnt the talking scenes that ruined the character. It was the delivery and some of the writing.

The actress has the emotional range of a toaster.

Also, Samus never really had a character. She never talked, and the only glimpses we got of her character were a few interactions with the environment. or someone talking to her- She never said anything though. For the most part, her "character" is the player's imagination. The sky's the limit. the music atmosphere and the fact that she doesnt talk gave players their own ideas on her personality.

Other M however, is the first game where she speaks with a voice. And actually, Fusion did it forst and I dont see anyone complaining there. That one also had her all broody and narrating. And the Manga already well documented her PTSD issues. And while she may not have flinched at seeing Ridley oher times, there comes a time when the straw breaks the camel's back. After so many repeated defeats and DEATHS of him- including the destruction of Zebes, which was supposed to have wiped him out for good with no way to revive him- There he is. AGAIN. Symbolically  right out of the fiery pits of hell. Its the realization that she just cannot free herself of him that gets her. Not that hes there, but that despite her best efforts and the destruction of the planet she called home with him on it, he still came back.

Yeah We Need to get back on Topic

(click to show/hide)

true that, but Other M Just took the Monologing waaay to far, Fusion gave her a story along with others. but other M makes Samus way too much of a Emotional Fragile Person rather than a hardened Bounty Hunter that seen some stuff that'll shake her.
In a Strong Sense, they make samus up as who she really is and breaks the character down too much
Team Ninja Can make a game, but make sure they touch nothing on Samus.
It almost an Insult pretty much saying a bounty Hunter whos been through alot, tooken out countless aliens and alot more along that nature can't Keep composure after a death of an ally pretty much Just because she's a girl. Dialogue is okay, but it has to be believable.

[Charlotte-nyo:3]

I think most agree that the rooms have been getting a bit too much copypaste-style plainness in the games lately (I've seen a lot of complaints to that effect). They need more extensible graphics that can fit together in multiple, interesting ways so that each room has some variety and different feels. They did a decent job of this on the gravity-defying circus tileset graphics in PoR, but most of the other PoR stuff wasn't too varied room-to-room.

Metroids typically did a good job of this as well. Perhaps the short dev times on PoR and OoE were also a factor.