Topic: The first sign rises with the full moon.

[AlexCalvo]

You guys expecting an Igarashi game to feature

- Thoughtful story
- gameplay innovation

Are in for a though awakening. You're getting cheap Dawn of Sorrow, at best. The man is a one trick pony.

That explains why he wasn't able to reach his kickstarter goal.  Oh wait....

[Ahasverus]

Are you kidding. AOS>DOS>OOE was an exponential improvement in gameplay. Complex plots have never been CV's virtue, but it never had to be as 2d CV's gameplay superseded story and often used plot devices to make the gameplay better i.e. the Souls system/ Glyphs system and the introduction of Chaos and Dominus. These elements were both thoughtful and innovative.

Thoughtful and innovative? They're just glorified weapons with a different equipment type and some basic interactions that were already done better in Circle of The Moon. They're neither thoughtful or innovative.

I see your favourite game is Rondo, what did Rondo add to the overarching plot that was so fantastic? After 400 years Dracula finally worked out he could kidnap women? Please... One extra playable character and half-assed anime cutscenes were it.

It came out in 1993.

Go back to playing LOS (judging from your artwork) which did nothing for the series but give us an insight into Belmont Domestics 101 and shallow, non-existent, memento-style pseudo-character development.

Oh I always go back to playing the LoS series, its world building was fantastic. Shame it went to waste with 2 (Still great from a lore perspective, the city scrolls were great). Mirror of Fate actually gave Simon Belmont a character, which I will always appreciate.

Also lol at LoS only giving the series actual character development and story.

That explains why he wasn't able to reach his kickstarter goal.  Oh wait....

SOTN nostalgia and the lack of real Castlevania. I still find criminal that IGA gets the credit for SOTN when he took the project after the real creator and director had to leave. The fact that he didn't top SOTN is pretty telling. He got close with Ecclesia, but that's because he finally tried to semi deviate from the SOTN formula.. by adopting the early CV formula.

Remember his only orignial game, Nanobreaker?

Yeah, you sure do.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that Bloodstained exists, as we have no Castlevania, and a part of me is glad to play a good ol' IGA game, but I'm not expecting a masterpiece, or even an inspired game, this is "I can't believe it's not Castlevania" and will feel like it. I also abandoned all pretense for a story, you guys are really citing his infamous "battle of 1999" as a showing for his ability as a storyteller? don't make me laugh, not only it's the mother of all plotholes, but it's clear not even he knew how to tell that thing.

Anyways, I'm eager to find out how the protagonist friend/lover/brother/uncle/mentor turns bad this time.

[TheTextGuy]

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/iga/bloodstained-ritual-of-the-night/posts/1772921

Another update, first one for the new year.  The short story is that there's an abandoned village level that comes between the ship and the castle itself.  Also the accompanying video seems to show a new track for that stage.

[shelverton.]

I love that there's a village. The video looks a bit weird though. There's something about the level design and background that makes it feel kinda unnatural. I'm sure they'll add stuff, and this is way too early to judge 100%, but Ecclesia had a better village. That is all.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

its world building was fantastic. Shame it went to waste with 2 (Still great from a lore perspective, the city scrolls were great). Mirror of Fate actually gave Simon Belmont a character, which I will always appreciate.

I think so too. And there's no denying that the Lords of Shadow saga brought a level of Peter Jacksonian epicness to a series that up until that point really had no cinematic awesomeness of its own. I mean, we did have the deliciously hammy Shakespearean plots of Lament of Innocence and Curse of Darkness, but the tone and delivery of the plot of Lords of Shadow and Mirror of Fate absolutely NAILED how I thought a Castlevania story should be told. People can (and should) argue the actual story all live-long day, but the storytelling itself was masterful and on the nose in the first game especially.

I still find criminal that IGA gets the credit for SOTN when he took the project after the real creator and director had to leave.

Yeah. The original director left the project a THIRD of the way into production. Some accounts (though I don't know how accurate they might have been) even said the game had barely been in actual production by the time he left. But all accounts agree that Iga was the primary force behind SOTN's completion, and it really is his baby through and through.

The fact that he didn't top SOTN is pretty telling.

No it isn't. Lots of artists produce their best works early on. Linkin Park, Evanescence, and Taylor Swift are a few musical examples. In fact, MOST artists tend to peak early. It's a rare creator who can be a Harrison Ford or a Hideo Kojima and find great success and inspiration throughout their careers in a given field. In fact, it's more telling that Iga kept going despite never fully living up to his magnum opus where most others would have quit out of dissatisfaction with themselves.

He got close with Ecclesia, but that's because he finally tried to semi deviate from the SOTN formula.. by adopting the early CV formula.

Konami was the one that ground him into the same formula over and over, because for a while it consistently got results. Only when Castlevania started stagnating did they let him take more risks, but not really. The levels of executive meddling involved in the production of Judgment in particular are worthy of legend.

Remember his only orignial game, Nanobreaker?

Yeah, you sure do.

Are you kidding? It's a brilliant B-movie of a game that foresaw Metal Gear Rising's themes and gameplay a decade earlier. If anything, Nanobreaker failed because it was too ahead of its time, both thematically and technologically (the fact that Konami put ZERO marketing dollars behind it also contributed to said failure). Had it been made in the PS/360 Era, it would have been able to be more masterfully done and even if it hadn't been a mega-hit, like Rising, it would have a VERY loud fan following and would be one of the more popular cult games of our time. The PlayStation 2 was simply too limited a platform to effectively realize what Nanobreaker was attempting to do. Basically, Rising was what happened when Konami told Platinum Games to make a Metal Gear and one of the Dev team was a Nanobreaker fan. Or at least that's how I imagine it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that Bloodstained exists, as we have no Castlevania, and a part of me is glad to play a good ol' IGA game, but I'm not expecting a masterpiece, or even an inspired game, this is "I can't believe it's not Castlevania" and will feel like it. I also abandoned all pretense for a story, you guys are really citing his infamous "battle of 1999" as a showing for his ability as a storyteller? don't make me laugh, not only it's the mother of all plotholes, but it's clear not even he knew how to tell that thing.

He actually never meant for it to be shown, but as with any nebulous event with far-reaching consequences, fans were merciless in their desire to see it. It was the same mistake Russell T. Davies made by introducing the Last Great Time War to Doctor Who's canon. It was never meant to be seen, merely mentioned and danced around with a few plotlines. Eventually, seven years after it was first mentioned, Davies' successor, Steven Moffat caved and FINALLY showed us a bit of the Time War and it was... nowhere NEAR as dramatic or cool as its nebulous reputation had caused fans to build it up in to be in their heads. Which is also the simple reason Iga never showed the 1999 war: there's just no way for him to deliver something cooler than what you've already thought of, so why even bother and invariably disappoint almost everyone?

And if anyone actually cites the 1999 Event as a showcase of Iga's talent, I will hunt them down and beat them with a large metal stick. The only real showcase of talent there was that he wisely chose to keep away from giving specifics.

Anyways, I'm eager to find out how the protagonist friend/lover/brother/uncle/mentor turns bad this time.

Iga only actually used that plotline twice; in Harmony of Dissonance and Order of Ecclesia, which were pretty well spaced from each other (2002 and 2007, respectively). In Harmony, it was the driving force of the plot, and it's actually largely averted as a major plot element for much of Ecclesia. Circle of the Moon also did it, but Iga had nothing to do with that one. Besides that, it's a storytelling device from the DAWN OF MANKIND so criticizing Iga for using such a timeless storytelling method is pointless. It's like faulting Star Wars for using The Hero's Journey (which, in stunningly idiotic fashion, some people have actually done).

Seriously broski. Y'all need to Joseph Campbell some more.

As it is, I don't see why we have to be divided at all. Every Castlevania* brings something positive to the table, and getting negative accomplishes nothing good. BTW, my joke about beating people with a stick was a joke. Just in case it wasn't obvious.


*Those fucking Pachislot games are NOT Castlevania games and no amount of marketing from Konami will ever convince me otherwise.

[affinity]

well the village criticisms could get them to improve it .

Castlevania II still has the greatest open world and town systems in the series.  and they didn't need a OoE fast travel map to connect the world,

it even has realtime day/night cycles that effect town and also enemies outside.   yea OoE had more indepth socializing, but it was awkward having to fill the empty village with captured villagers.   it fit for the plot, though CVII didn't need that drama to provide multiple towns with people living there.  it really was the Castlevania World of the series in a sense.

[zangetsu468]

Thoughtful and innovative? They're just glorified weapons with a different equipment type and some basic interactions that were already done better in Circle of The Moon. They're neither thoughtful or innovative.
 

Basic character interactions done better in COTM> All following Igavanias? Bullshit. COTM's system was highly flawed because it actually relied upon chance, and the player picking up cards that would work in synchronization. Even with items that increased luck or finding rarer items, cards were difficult to come by and took silly amounts of grinding. In various playthroughs of the game the results I had varied a lot, there was nothing consistent about the drops. In fact the first playthough I had about 3-5 skills that i could activate and I still completed the game with relative ease, which shows just how big of a part the DSS cards could/ couldn't play. In addition, the only main weapon the character could use was a whip. SOTN had a lot more diversity for its time, in addition to having spells and familiars, so aside from the level of challenge it really didn't offer anything that SOTN hadn't already done more successfully, if people are wanting to get technical. You seem to use the term "basic character interaction" in a way that you deride the Igavanias altogether. What's basic about these games that wasn't basic about Rondo or any other preceding CV game.

There was an evolution from the Sorrow series' Soul system into the Glyph system. In the Sorrow games you used souls which drained MP, yet you could still attack with regular weapons. The Glyph system used MP for all attacks so that the player couldn't attack endlessly, having to put more thought into their attacks/ magic.

The term innovative doesn't only apply to the system itself, there were innovative skills (souls/ glyphs) which the player acquired which evolved over the course of these games. In AOS and DOS you acquired superjump (like COTM) and black panther, which made moving through the castle much faster and smoother. AOS/ DOS also introduced transformation souls (Curlies for example) which while not necessary were required in some cases to reach specific areas (the waterfall in AOS). In OOE there was no sumperjump because of the Magnus Glyph. If anyone has played the game on the hardest setting, there are certain instances (like CV64/LOD) where the platforming has changed substantially including more spikes etc where timing a Magnus launch can be the difference between living or not.

The combo system was also improved throughout the 3 games, the player basically can not combo in COTM the way they can in the later games. There was no backdash and dashing required doubletapping the d-pad, which by today's standards in archaic. Although dashing (and for the more advanced player, dash-cancelling) was introduced in SOTN, the controls were not as tight and did not work as well for multiple hit combo's as it did with AOS>DOS>OOE. OOE also feature defensive glyphs which although defensive items did appear in instances in the previous games, were not necessarily required to be used (in OOE they're required on the hardest setting moreso than normal mode). There's also a substantial difference in AI between the evolution of the Igavania games specifically in this case between COTM>AOS>DOS>OOE (SOTN was technologically more advanced than COTM, but it was also a console release) The difference in AI is also evident in boss battles. The Dragon Zombie and Adramelech are predominantly considered the hardest bosses in COTM, good AI for its time no doubt. Dracula's second form was a challenge but not overly hard. AOS improved boss AI and innovation with "Balore" taking the Vampire bat's place; this was the first boss battle in CV where the size of the boss went beyond what the screen could show, and involved using different players of depth, which was also seen in the fight with Death, where he becomes transparent and is unable to be hit. The fights with Julius and Chaos were also previously unseen in previous CV's. DOS mostly rode AOS' successes in this regard, however the boss and exploration element of Paranoia can't be disregarded, and the battle with Death offered a new layer of challenge well above the previous games. OOE shone brightest imo with boss innovation, particularly with Brachyura, Gravedorcus, Blackmoore and Eligore, even the Dracula battle was much different to what we'd previously seen.

There was a perpetual evolution through out these games which were made on small budgets, and didn't have the financial capacity of projects such as LOS1 and 2.
 

Also lol at LoS only giving the series actual character development and story.

Lol at the main character in LOS1 being Dracula, because that's who the character development was about, there's no Belmont in the true sense of LOS1. The original CV timeline also did develop Dracula's character over a series of games, which picked up substantially with SOTN and LOI. If they had put as much effort into MOF's characters that they did with Gabriel in LOS1, as well as fixing gameplay issues (which was apparently fixed in part in the HD version) it could have been a decent game. I personally found Simon's character to be the least developed, given Trevorcard is the same person.

As I said on numerous occasions I actually liked LOS1 as its own title, just not for the overall Castlevania universe.

[Gunlord]

well the village criticisms could get them to improve it .

Castlevania II still has the greatest open world and town systems in the series.  and they didn't need a OoE fast travel map to connect the world,

it even has realtime day/night cycles that effect town and also enemies outside.   yea OoE had more indepth socializing, but it was awkward having to fill the empty village with captured villagers.   it fit for the plot, though CVII didn't need that drama to provide multiple towns with people living there.  it really was the Castlevania World of the series in a sense.

Yeah, this is a WIP after all I bet the finished village will look a lot better.

[TheTextGuy]

Personally I'm a fan of the colors the village uses (makes it look very demented), but the realistic textures kind of clash with the cel shaded Miriam.

[uzo]

You guys expecting an Igarashi game to feature

- Thoughtful story
- gameplay innovation

Are in for a though awakening. You're getting cheap Dawn of Sorrow, at best. The man is a one trick pony.

^ Angry it isn't Lords of Shittow 3.

Are you kidding. AOS>DOS>OOE was an exponential improvement in gameplay.

Pretty much. OOE was such an improvement of difficulty and gameplay I was shocked. IGA really went back to the drawing board and gave us not only something Castlevania feeling but juiced it up with a new way to play. He found a way to keep the weapons system, souls system, and not flood the game with useless weapons and souls at the same time. It was great. It is like the intersection where Classic, SotN, and Sorrow games meet to have a party.

[affinity]

there really isnt a IGAvania that doesnt have fans. 

[zangetsu468]

Pretty much. OOE was such an improvement of difficulty and gameplay I was shocked. IGA really went back to the drawing board and gave us not only something Castlevania feeling but juiced it up with a new way to play. He found a way to keep the weapons system, souls system, and not flood the game with useless weapons and souls at the same time. It was great. It is like the intersection where Classic, SotN, and Sorrow games meet to have a party.

100%. OOE also felt like it was giving redemption to Simon's Quest in a way, as in if they had adopted a similar design to remaking Simon's Quest with the hub, overworld map, etc it really could have worked. Granted it didn't have the day and night cycles, but the added levels of difficulty and enemy AI (Gravediggers for eg) were a welcome change. The hardest play-through (hard max Lvl.1) also encouraged the player to use different glyphs than what would've been required in normal mode - which was already more difficult than usual by Igavania standards. That was the difference between POR and OOE, In POR you're better off grinding certain items for the boss fights toward the end of the game, particularly the final boss, and there are very few skills that are useful in defeating bosses compared with OOE. OOE does give the player Nitesco, which ends up being a blanket glyph able to be used in many situations, however, you only acquire it towards the very end of the game unlike the Crissaegrim/ Valmanway in SOTN or the Claimh Solais in AOS. There was nothing quite like starting the game up again and unexpectedly receiving that Dracula Medal after that playthrough, let me tell you. 

[Super Waffle]

there really isnt a IGAvania that doesnt have fans.

Everyone hates Harmony of Dissonance.

[zangetsu468]

Everyone hates Harmony of Dissonance.

Not everyone. It's even a pretty good challenge if you play it only using the base VK and subweapons.

[Lumi Kløvstad]

I played Harmony of Dissonance and Curse of Darkness at the same time and they were my very first Castlevanias. I love them both to death.