Topic: Are Japanese developers just misogynistic pigs?

[Sonic_Reaper]

I've been reading a lot up lately on the handling of Aya Brea (Parasite Eve) and Samus (Metroid), ie:  late to the party.  What most people talk about is how disappointed they are in the handling of the main character.  Now, I guess this isn't just specifically a Japanese issue, as even Western developers seem to have the same stance.  People talk about the disappointment, but there doesn't seem to be much talk of why?

What do you guys think?  Is it just a fluke?  Was Samus originally perceived to be a badass because the technology was so simple back in the origin game and there wasn't much story?  Or are developers so removed from the idea of a dominant, independent and aggressive woman that it doesn't even cross their minds? 

Overall, I find it kind of sad.  In the end, it just feels like a big waste of time to invest in a character you liked for those very reasons, only to then have the developers metaphorically pin them down and rape them.  Maybe harsh words, but that's what it feels like, a subdual.  Let's face it, the main guys in charge of these series are men, and there probably is some weird societal conditioning they don't even recognize that causes them to fear women with prescribed "masculine" qualities.  It's a shame.  I've yet to see a strong woman in a popular series make any headway, and be recognized as such, without a slapdash of sexualization (*cough*Lara Croft*cough*).

What do you guys think?  Am I over thinking this?  Or would you consider this problematic with regards to how games and game developers portray and view women?

[Dracula9]

I'm going to avoid the actual point of this thread entirely, but instead note Lightning, who remained a pretty strong female lead through the XIII trilogy (with Sera taking the reigns in XIII-2, but Lightning's role was still pretty strong in terms of dominance/strength; protecting a literal goddess, c'mon, how badass is that?).

It wasn't until LR that she really took over as a genuinely dominant lead,

(click to show/hide)

(killing God, who's really more of a Demiurge, to save humanity AND everyone who had ever died because God was a dick and wanted to erase all memory of the dead)

but I guess that can be knocked down since some of her Garbs are pretty sexualized.

I dunno. I feel like every time this topic shows up, the original point of there being a genuine lack of strong female leads in games being lost in a sea of people bickering about how sexualized they are (because really, if a chick's wearing nothing but a strap bikini, but has a really really really good story and role, I'm not really gonna give a shit about how she looks), which leads invariably to yet another argument about how dreadfully hypocritical third-wave feminism is, and those never end well.

Hence why I'm not really chiming in on that note.

[X]

I do think it's a bit of an issue with developers nowadays. They are almost completely out of touch with the popular characters that had emerged from the era of the late 80's. Samus is one of the strongest contenders of this awkward reversal from a strong-willed, independent ass-kicker to an obedient housewife with daddy issues. This is also reflected in how Samus looks. Before Metroid Fusion came out Samus' character was portrayed to be a warrior type and her bodily physique reflected that image. Not only was her suit large but so was she! Samus was a quintessential Amazon woman. Now we have this short, skinny, frail woman hiding in said suit. Metroid: Other M did a lot of damage to the character. If Gunpei Yokoi was still alive it's more then likely that the Samus we knew in our youth would still be portrayed to this day. I also believe it's a cultural thing as well, which unfortunately has eked it's way into our favorite heroines. in terms of how they dress--sexy or not--is of no consequence. The saying is; Do not judge a book by it's cover. This is especially true with men and women. Don't look at them from the outside, but let them prove themselves through their actions. From their true source inside themselves. But there are many people out there that stigmatize these scantly-dressed characters as being representatives of sex rather then what a woman should truly represent. And just how should a woman be truly represented on the outside?? Nobody, not even a woman representing all women can make such a perfectly flawed claim. And that's because as a people we are all unique, we are all different, and we are all individuals with our own thoughts and opinions about what it is to be a "proper" person. We cannot speak for the majority but only to ourselves because that's as far as it should ever go. If a game designer wants to have a sexy or plain woman hero in his or her game? Then let it be so.

[Sonic_Reaper]

I'm going to avoid the actual point of this thread entirely, but instead note Lightning, who remained a pretty strong female lead through the XIII trilogy (with Sera taking the reigns in XIII-2, but Lightning's role was still pretty strong in terms of dominance/strength; protecting a literal goddess, c'mon, how badass is that?).

It wasn't until LR that she really took over as a genuinely dominant lead,

(click to show/hide)

(killing God, who's really more of a Demiurge, to save humanity AND everyone who had ever died because God was a dick and wanted to erase all memory of the dead)

but I guess that can be knocked down since some of her Garbs are pretty sexualized.

I dunno. I feel like every time this topic shows up, the original point of there being a genuine lack of strong female leads in games being lost in a sea of people bickering about how sexualized they are (because really, if a chick's wearing nothing but a strap bikini, but has a really really really good story and role, I'm not really gonna give a shit about how she looks), which leads invariably to yet another argument about how dreadfully hypocritical third-wave feminism is, and those never end well.

Hence why I'm not really chiming in on that note.

Actually, this is a good point.  I think both sides have valid points.  But going off of what you said, I keep forgetting about Lightning because honestly I've never played the XIII games, and haven't really noticed FF much outside of the original 6 games.  On that note though, within this series is a strange mix both strong female characters (and even lead characters!) and the exact opposite, as if they exist in some strange kind of harmony.  I think Terra is another great example.  Again, the clothes are questionable, as you mentioned (and aren't they always).  And I think it's funny how Celes is, within the hardcore community, oft talked about as being a strong independent woman, but it's the exact opposite.

I do think it's a bit of an issue with developers nowadays. They are almost completely out of touch with the popular characters that had emerged from the era of the late 80's. Samus is one of the strongest contenders of this awkward reversal from a strong-willed, independent ass-kicker to an obedient housewife with daddy issues. This is also reflected in how Samus looks. Before Metroid Fusion came out Samus' character was portrayed to be a warrior type and her bodily physique reflected that image. Not only was her suit large but so was she! Samus was a quintessential Amazon woman. Now we have this short, skinny, frail woman hiding in said suit. Metroid: Other M did a lot of damage to the character. If Gunpei Yokoi was still alive it's more then likely that the Samus we knew in our youth would still be portrayed to this day. I also believe it's a cultural thing as well, which unfortunately has eked it's way into our favorite heroines. in terms of how they dress--sexy or not--is of no consequence. The saying is; Do not judge a book by it's cover. This is especially true with men and women. Don't look at them from the outside, but let them prove themselves through their actions. From their true source inside themselves. But there are many people out there that stigmatize these scantly-dressed characters as being representatives of sex rather then what a woman should truly represent. And just how should a woman be truly represented on the outside?? Nobody, not even a woman representing all women can make such a perfectly flawed claim. And that's because as a people we are all unique, we are all different, and we are all individuals with our own thoughts and opinions about what it is to be a "proper" person. We cannot speak for the majority but only to ourselves because that's as far as it should ever go. If a game designer wants to have a sexy or plain woman hero in his or her game? Then let it be so.

Regarding your last point, I get it.  I was more referring to the very blatant and gratuitous scenes/outfits that female characters are subjected to that are very obviously just desperate fantasy fuel for male gamers.  Did Parasite Eve 2 really need a shower scene?

Another series I am frustrated with is Xenogears/Xenosaga.  It has such interesting ideas and storytelling, but the female characters are all essentially damsels' in distress, and the outfits oft out of character, and existing solely for again, sexual objectification.

[uzo]

There is a LOT to this topic. I'm not going to give the whole run down, but I do want to touch on a side of it I think hasn't really been brought up yet.

In some kind of weird polarization, theres actually a shit load of 'strong independant female characters' in Japanese media that are basically dressed like strippers. Its especially prevalent in those shows and games where every cast member is a female. You know the intention is to make them all basically each an example of a certain fetish or style for every man to pick out what they'd like to be with the most. Yet some of the character's writing (albeit very shallow at times) can lead to some of those characters having the traits people want strong female characters to have.

It makes you wonder, in regards to Japan specifically, how exactly do they see these things? Why bother writing characters that way if they're just sexual fetish avatars? Or do they see these things differently? Perhaps some sort of detachment from the design?

I don't really have an answer to offer for it. Just highlighting another face of the discussion.

I've often thought about putting something about this entire discussion on my developer's blog, but it's such a huge topic. I wouldn't know where to begin, nor think I have enough info to really come to some sort of useful conclusion or 'solution'.

[Abnormal Freak]

This is also reflected in how Samus looks. Before Metroid Fusion came out Samus' character was portrayed to be a warrior type and her bodily physique reflected that image. Not only was her suit large but so was she! Samus was a quintessential Amazon woman.

Uh...were we playing the same games?



Sure, she's pretty tall, and looks to be toned in Super Metroid, but I'm not seeing what you described. The suit made up much of the bulk.

[Shiroi Koumori]

I always understood these things with regards to the fondness for escapism among the Japanese. It is a cultural thing.

The reality they live in is full of work and school without any decent rest periods, thus they have video games, anime, manga, movies, tv shows, etc. that allow them to break away from their lives. Have you noticed how silly their game shows are? They need comedy to release all of those stress. If they can't cope up, they kill themselves.

Regarding the female, it is hard for Japanese men to get girlfriends since I have noticed that it is the women who do the courting and not the men. Plus, with the recent problems in employment, this makes it harder for men to get someone to notice them. Japanese women are high maintenance. So, instead of drowning their sorrows in beer/wine, they have all these virtual women who at their command, would always be there for them. That also partially explains the low birth rate.

[Gunlord]

There is a LOT to this topic. I'm not going to give the whole run down, but I do want to touch on a side of it I think hasn't really been brought up yet.

In some kind of weird polarization, theres actually a shit load of 'strong independant female characters' in Japanese media that are basically dressed like strippers. Its especially prevalent in those shows and games where every cast member is a female. You know the intention is to make them all basically each an example of a certain fetish or style for every man to pick out what they'd like to be with the most. Yet some of the character's writing (albeit very shallow at times) can lead to some of those characters having the traits people want strong female characters to have.

It makes you wonder, in regards to Japan specifically, how exactly do they see these things? Why bother writing characters that way if they're just sexual fetish avatars? Or do they see these things differently? Perhaps some sort of detachment from the design?

I don't really have an answer to offer for it. Just highlighting another face of the discussion.

I've often thought about putting something about this entire discussion on my developer's blog, but it's such a huge topic. I wouldn't know where to begin, nor think I have enough info to really come to some sort of useful conclusion or 'solution'.

Can't the same be said of many Western female characters? Look at Lara Croft--a strong independent heroine who nonetheless wears fairly non-concealing clothing. Most Western superheroines also aren't known for their conservative dress, despite being exemplars of girl power.

[X]

Uh...were we playing the same games?

You betcha! 

Sure, she's pretty tall, and looks to be toned in Super Metroid, but I'm not seeing what you described. The suit made up much of the bulk.

Yes the suit itself made up most of the bulk, however from a human standpoint Samus is one of the more larger females of our species which are labeled as amazons. But we don't see her like that anymore in the recent games, official art & model lines. The directors that came after Gunpei Yokoi changed what was to more in less fit their view on the character.

[uzo]

It's not exclusive to Japan, Gunlord. But it's far more prevalent there. You need only look at the insane amount of all-girl fetish character casts from uncountable amounts of anime and games. The west may have a few here and there, but Japan has the monopoly on it really. They've taken it to the extreme.

[Sonic_Reaper]

There is a LOT to this topic. I'm not going to give the whole run down, but I do want to touch on a side of it I think hasn't really been brought up yet.

In some kind of weird polarization, theres actually a shit load of 'strong independant female characters' in Japanese media that are basically dressed like strippers. Its especially prevalent in those shows and games where every cast member is a female. You know the intention is to make them all basically each an example of a certain fetish or style for every man to pick out what they'd like to be with the most. Yet some of the character's writing (albeit very shallow at times) can lead to some of those characters having the traits people want strong female characters to have.

It makes you wonder, in regards to Japan specifically, how exactly do they see these things? Why bother writing characters that way if they're just sexual fetish avatars? Or do they see these things differently? Perhaps some sort of detachment from the design?

I don't really have an answer to offer for it. Just highlighting another face of the discussion.

I've often thought about putting something about this entire discussion on my developer's blog, but it's such a huge topic. I wouldn't know where to begin, nor think I have enough info to really come to some sort of useful conclusion or 'solution'.

Actually, from a psychological perspective, there is an explanation for this.  The word fetish, as you described, perfectly explains this phenomenon.  The dominant personality is just another faucet of that fascination, as such, in regards to Japanese culture, would be considered odd or out of place.  I know it's a generalization, but that's the point.  Women, especially in Japanese culture and history, have been severely oppressed and repressed.  The strong oppressive woman, then manifests as a taboo fetish.  It's kind of fucked up when you think about it, but it makes sense.

Ideally though, I'd want all these strange mommy and daddy and Freud issues removed from videogames, at least, where they appear unintentionally.  It's basically what happens when you create at a shallow level, without any sort of self reflection as to why you are creating (writing, drawing, developing, etc.) what you are.  And the end result is a bunch of games developed by men, socially conditioned to think and act a certain way, even a subconscious level, that throw out all their weird sexual hangups for the world to see.  As I mentioned earlier, it's kind of sad.  I almost feel sorry for these developers, that they're not able to cognitively function at a higher brain capacity.  Of course, without inner reflection, and with being surrounded by like-minded people, it's difficult to begin any sort of self-critical process.

[uzo]

I'll never advocate for a ban, or censorship, even on this matter. Would you tell an artist they cannot create something because you think theres too much of it, or don't like what they make?

If you want something to get created in an artform, but it isn't being done, you really have two options. 1) Wait and do nothing / complain, hoping it happens. 2) Go and make your own.

[Sonic_Reaper]

Already doing #2 lol

But this was more of a discussion.  Is it wrong to hope that more thoughtful games would be created?  I personally don't think so.

[Shiroi Koumori]

Is it wrong to hope that more thoughtful games would be created?  I personally don't think so.

Agree. The mainstream media (ahem, hollywood) must start the bandwagon or else mainstream video games would just keep on mimicking.

[uzo]

Of course you can hope for it. Just remember that your hopes aren't necessarily the gold standard, and other's hopes aren't invalidated as a result. I myself personally believe the games industry should be a little more spread out in their material, and there is a little too much emphasis on gore, ultra realism, and a lack of female characters who aren't basically on screen strippers. But I won't let my personal choice of games I'd like to make, to ban or persuade others from making the games they want to make. No matter how gory, sexualized, or weird they may be.

So what would I make?

I made a family friendly game about catching hamsters. It happens to include two characters, one female (default), and one male. It's not afraid to use the colors purple and pink. It has retro style arcade gameplay, and a bit of added depth with some accumulative power-ups. Beware, as cute as it may look it can kick your teeth in quite easily if you want to take on it's challenges.