Topic: Lords of Shadow, 6 years later

[Crying Freeman]

Been this long already? Lol

My main problems aren't the fault of the game, but the choices they chose. It's good to do different, but I wasn't the biggest fan of the LOTR styled fantasy narrative here. CV has been more inspired by dark fantasy, classic horror films and comics etc.- Conan and Dracula had a baby. Even then, it's executed perfectly- beautiful graphics, cinematic OST, great VA from real pros, and many areas of the game are just breathtaking and a beauty to look at. The biggest thing of all- it doesn't feel self indulgent like "isn't this cool and epic?" but more it deserves to be called that because it truly is that. Then the gameplay- very standard Rygar/GOW, with some SotC rip-offy scenes. These are what got everyone saying "This isn't Castlevania!! It's GOW!!" The presentation is the standout feature of the package... and hey, CV has always been that tbh, even if this is a different style.

It's a fantastic game for the most part, and I feel if it wasn't called Castlevania, it'd have a much larger fanbase and acceptance with gamers.

[Rugal]

https://uk.linkedin.com/in/gamesproducerdavecox

Look at this pretentious piece of shit.

"I am a successful and passionate games industry leader with over 20 years experience in senior positions in both game development and publishing. I have a long and successful track record of working on and delivering world-class, award-winning games.

I was responsible for rebooting the ailing Castlevania series and transforming it into a AAA multi-million selling franchise. I conceived, co-wrote and produced the game, sourced the talented developers and led the team to the most successful Castlevania games in the series history generating 100's of millions of dollars and two successful follow-up titles."

Ailing Castlevania series? This mother fucker. The series was only Ailing after you got your greasy claws over it. I wouldn't hire this swine to clean my dead cat's shit. Nothing is successful about what you did to Castlevania. Get that through your fat, ugly, thick skull. 

"World-class, award-winning games." What planet does this idiot live on?

[zangetsu468]

https://uk.linkedin.com/in/gamesproducerdavecox

Look at this pretentious piece of shit.

"I am a successful and passionate games industry leader with over 20 years experience in senior positions in both game development and publishing. I have a long and successful track record of working on and delivering world-class, award-winning games.

I think he meant *GAME i.e. singular not plural

I was responsible for rebooting the ailing Castlevania series and transforming it into a AAA multi-million selling franchise. I conceived, co-wrote and produced the game, sourced the talented developers and led the team to the most successful Castlevania games in the series history generating 100's of millions of dollars and two successful follow-up titles."

Again *GAME, *TITLE

#mirroroffuckmyass

Your two latter titles tanked more than Tiananmen Square...

#Coxucker

Ailing Castlevania series? This mother fucker. The series was only Ailing after you got your greasy claws over it. I wouldn't hire this swine to clean my dead cat's shit. Nothing is successful about what you did to Castlevania. Get that through your fat, ugly, thick skull. 

I don't give a fuck what sales figures or corporate suits deem worthy of success, but LOS is not equal to or greater than any Castlevania entry which preceded it.

He reminds me of Ricky Gervais, only not charming and unsuccessful.

[TheTextGuy]

#mirroroffuckmyass

Mirror of Fate was a bastardization of the IGA games imo.  Fall damage that forces you to go where the devs want you to go, combat that while satisfying, is kinda shallow, and dull hallways make for a mediocre experience that's only worsened by the fact it's a half-assed attempt at lip-service towards IGA fans.  Thank god we have Bloodstained to fill our IGAvania needs.

Also I have a feeling that many people aren't going to remember LoS as fondly (or at all) (or as just a small footnote) years down the line.

[zangetsu468]

Mirror of Fate was a bastardization of the IGA games imo.  Fall damage that forces you to go where the devs want you to go, combat that while satisfying, is kinda shallow, and dull hallways make for a mediocre experience that's only worsened by the fact it's a half-assed attempt at lip-service towards IGA fans.  Thank god we have Bloodstained to fill our IGAvania needs.

Also I have a feeling that many people aren't going to remember LoS as fondly (or at all) (or as just a small footnote) years down the line.

I think what annoyed me most was the force field/ barricades forcing you to fight enemies, this actually lessens the game's difficulty and makes moving through the map more annoying because:
a) You're stuck in a fucking shoebox instead of freely roaming
b) If you die you don't start at your save point, you just start around the corner.

People hammer Igavania's for being easier than Classicvanias, but remember the few areas in SOTN for example where enemies could pack-hunt you, such as the clocktower, inverted clock tower, the anti chapel, the inverted library and the reverse entry? You see when you don't force the player to conform (with the exception of boss fights) smarter AI actually makes for a more challenging game without halting the fluidity.

Yet in Mirror of PLEASEC*monmyFace, we get stupid shit like the aforementioned, flashing platforms (which we should hang off), axes hitting ceilings (but not hitting enemies as they fall down), Belmont domestic quarrels episodes 01-03, and Simon's walking paces screeching to the likes of OTHER M OTS moments...

[SecretWeapon]

I consider LoS one of the best CV titles. 2 is shit, and i didnt play MoF and Cox/Alvarez are annoying af to put it lightly but LoS1 is truly well done. You two (rugal and zangetsu) look as ridiculous as Cox and Alvarez though

Again, I still want Lords of Shadows 3: Bernhards Curse

[zangetsu468]

You two (rugal and zangetsu) look as ridiculous as Cox and Alvarez though

I actually liked LOS1 and said it was a good game. I didn't like what it brought to the franchise as a whole.

How the fuck do we look ridiculous and don't compare us to Cox and Alvarez when it's reaching. In short if you don't like our opinions, then kindly eff-off.

[Shiroi Koumori]

https://uk.linkedin.com/in/gamesproducerdavecox

This is what I call padding your resume!

[Rugal]

I consider LoS one of the best CV titles. 2 is shit, and i didnt play MoF and Cox/Alvarez are annoying af to put it lightly but LoS1 is truly well done. You two (rugal and zangetsu) look as ridiculous as Cox and Alvarez though

Again, I still want Lords of Shadows 3: Bernhards Curse

Did you just fucking compare me to that fat sack of melted shit, and that crypt keeper looking maggot infested asshole? You sir have poor tastes.

[TatteredSeraph]

Possibly walking away at this point might me the better thing to do at this point and calming down, guys, before things get too angry.  That was a pretty shitty comparison to make, SecretWeapon.  Especially considering the poor way that Cox and Alvarez regarded the fanbase while the games were being released.  Peoples' anger is pretty justified, all things considered.  In this situation, it's fine for different people to hold very different opinions on matters.  The range of views on the Castlevania series you see on these boards is something I really like and respect about it, especially as there is so much passion for these games.

  I love aspects of the LoS trilogy, and had no issue with the epic, LotR-esque take added, even though it's a huge departure from the series, in its attempt to pour fresh blood via a new spin.  That I can respect, to an extent, even though the issues with the games from the end of Iga's reign were due to Konami putting Iga in a difficult position.  I love some of the artwork, the music, the voice acting.  However, LoS wasn't true enough to the source in many ways, and the content, after promising much, never fully paid out what it promised.  The controlling hand from someone who didn't care for the series showed, especially as you progressed through the series, with LoS 2's plot in particular being clunky, with the jarring clash between stunning castle segments and lazy as all hell and unimaginative modern segments that made for most of the game.  The choke-hold on creativity that the art books indicated towards being there stopped the potential from being reached.  Likewise with bits from the Alucard DLC.  Even still, the asinine attitudes from Cox and Alvaraez was not on, especially when called out on stuff, such as the ending for 2, when people sussed out immediately that Trevor becomes Alucard, etc etc.  That, along with the faults within the games, has left very bitter tastes in too many peoples' mouths (myself included truth be told), causing even more dislike of the LoS games.

[zangetsu468]

Seraph's opinion is one of the better formed and more articulate posts I've read on this thread.

Additionally, good advice Seraph. I'm not fussed what complete strangers believe about me and at the same time it's my belief that especially if you don't know someone personally, judgement and personal attacks should be refrained from, or at the very least paired right back.

[TatteredSeraph]

Thanks, Zangetsu, much appreciated.  I could just see this ending up sidetracking the thread into devolving into a slanging match and have people getting far too angry, so thought it best to step in and try and nip it a bit in the bud now.  It's just general manners imo, to not be rude to people like that. 

I think a lot of the conclusions I've come to about LoS come about from a mix of quiet observance here, even back before I joined and just instead lurked, reading posts, and chatting to a friend not on the boards who's likewise a big Castlevania fan.  When I finally played through LoS1, back before MoF came out, after initially being very skeptical about the reboot, I found myself enchanted by Gabriel's story.  I found him a very strong and interesting character, and my friend and I frothed and theorized on stuff.  But when LoS2 eventually came out, while we love certain aspects of it, we felt disappointed in wasted potential, with some bits handled rather sloppily, for various reasons, and we hated the attitudes that certain personages were taking with the series.  However, when critiquing the games, I have tried to find the positive aspects of them.  The bits that to me captured my attention, the bits that I find important in games, and I have clung my focus on those bits rather than get depressed about the shortcomings and failings in the games, irrespective of my views on how Cox and Alvarez in particular handled matters, and judged the games in their own contexts.  For me, story, and the characters, are the main things I look for in games (includin pen n paper rpgs, as that's the sort of gamer I am).  Artwork, and music, are likewise important, as they add to that.  These are the aspects of Castlevania that I care about the most, as they're the bits that drew me in in the first place, some 15 years ago.  The fact that I was emotionally captured by Gabriel's story is what made me a LoS fan, and still love it, despite the spark of promise not fully realised.  It's that spark that was there that keeps me interested, even though yeah, the reboot's been concluded, in a fashion.  However, I completely get the anger shown, like I was saying.  This thread is a retrospective on the reboot, I'm assuming to see whether people have changed their views on it, or had their feelings soften at all over time or not.  I think it's safe to say that for a good number of us, we still feel as strongly now as we did originally, especially seeing as we haven't had an actual Castlevania game release since.

[Flame]

Y'all need to stop gettin' angry at vidya games

[X]

I can't exactly get angry at the games because it's not the games' fault they were built that way. It is the fault of those who made the games that need to take responsibility for their incompetence and the irreversible damage they've done. But this is north America. And most game designers over here don't care much about polishing a product as they do about making money. Bethesda game studios is a good example of this sad, ever-growing trend.

[JayDominus]

Yeah, I'm kind of really fond of those games. Though it pains my heart to see what a wasted opportunity they are.
Y'see, while I love me my Classicvanias, Metroidvanias other than SotN kinda-sorta lose me. Couple that with neither owning a PS2 nor owning a PC powerful enough to emulate PS2 well back in the day, and I was really behind on Castlevania. I *read* about the plots of the newer games and... well, I wasn't really impressed.
Hence why I couldn't care less for all the stuff they "got wrong" (as far as I'm concerned, they just felt it wasn't good and changed it around; some of the changes worked, others didn't). To me, Lords of Shadow 1 looked like exactly what I wanted Castlevania to be - more or less a modernized take on a classic formula - a linear action-adventure game in which you play as a badass warrior whose last name is Belmont, with Dracula at the end. And when I finally got to play it, that's pretty much what it was. Even if the soundtrack was very different (but still good: Oscar Araujo did a grand job on it) and it was trying very hard to be a Hollywood movie (some of the vampire castle locations remind me of Van Helsing, which goes well with Gabriel kinda looking like Hugh Jackman). And the story was kind of stupid with the God mask being the red herring all along. And yes, I do vastly prefer Dracula being a Belmont to Dracula being some guy who's neither a Belmont nor Vlad Tepes.
Mirror of Fate I didn't play until after LoS2 and initially I was less than impressed. It's trying to play both sides against the middle and doesn't do very well as a metroidvania, but eh... okay. Whatevs. Story-wise, as always, we get the elements that appear right the hell outta nowhere (like, y'know, the Mirror Spirit) and go right the hell nowhere. As with the last game, I actually like the streamlined approach to Alucard. Adrian's origins never really made sense to me, especially if the Matthias!Dracula's origins are taken into consideration. I get that Matthias was retconned in, but it only made it all more needlessly convoluted and silly. I also liked Simon's redesign in this game, taking Kojima's redheaded hunter and combining him with the original barbarian image so he doesn't look like someone who just escaped from a BDSM club (I will forever call Kojima's design "BDSimon" for I despise it very much).
Lords of Shadow 2... oh sweet merciful Christ, talk about all the potential wasted. It oozes from the game. There are lots of story ideas that could carry fully-fledged games on their own and none of them go anywhere (Dracula trying to find a way to off himself? Dracula's castle rebelling against him? Dracula taking a nap and awakening in modern times? Or in the future? Dracula vs Satan? Each of these could be fleshed out and carry a game on its own if given proper attention; none of them were). The graphics are the great last hurrah for the 7th gen with beautiful art direction (especially in the castle parts)... that clashes wildly with the parts that were blatanlty designed by someone else. The music... yeah, the music and gameplay mechanics are the only things that are consistently good, Oscar Araujo is still great.
But the story. The unfocused, over- and underwritten Frankenstein's monster of a story is just a pile of awful mess that, despite the devs knowing that it'll be their last CV game, fails to provide an entertaining journey and a satisfying closure to the trilogy. Everybody is an idiot (other than Alucard, he suddenly turns into a freaking Machiavelli), Dracula is far too angsty and not arrogant enough (he should consult Kain on how a vampire overlord protagonist should behave), Victor is cool, only he dies for no reason, Satan is an idiot who gets gutted by the Vampire Killer near a pizza joint and the non-ending leaves a metric frakton of questions never to be answered. Such as:
- What the funk and wagnal was that about the castle? Is it real? is it in his head? It seems to be in his head but then Alucard can suddenly travel there too? And what the flipping hell is up with Maria?
- Why can Vampire Killer kill Satan? Seriously, it's never explained or alluded to.
- So what, Dracula doesn't want to off himself now?
- Was Trevor an illusion or was it Alucard? If it's Alucard, then how can he do that?
- What's up with Alucard being stronger than Dracula, even after he defeated Inner Dracula?

And I can go on and on and on, but you get the point. The writing is stupid and horrible and practically buries the game and the few genuinely awesome moments ("I am his Chosen One!") are buried by all the idiocy that's going on. What a shame. This really could be something special. 

I can't exactly get angry at the games because it's not the games' fault they were built that way. It is the fault of those who made the games that need to take responsibility for their incompetence and the irreversible damage they've done. But this is north America. And most game designers over here don't care much about polishing a product as they do about making money. Bethesda game studios is a good example of this sad, ever-growing trend.

MercurySteam is a Spanish developer.
Also, Bethsoft produces GOTY candidate after GOTY candidate, what are you talking about?