Topic: The first sign rises with the full moon.

[Guy Belmont]

Reinhardt is a pure-blooded Belmont. The only difference is his sir name. Many make the mistake that Patriarchy is the only way to have a pure bloodline. That's a terrible misconception that Patriarchal belief has established in society. It's garbage actually, if not sexist. If a woman of Belmont blood had a child with someone outside of the family that would not make the child any less of a Belmont. It's no different with the man of Belmont blood having a child with a woman outside of the family. The only difference is the name change. We have to keep in mind as well that CV64 (Apocalypse) came out before IGA had established his own personal CV mythos. Though, no doubt, it was in the works.

Yeah well no I agree, I always thought   he was  a pure blooded Belmont , but as there is very little in the way of Apocalypse stuff at all.  its hard to know if they thought the same as we did.

See my sig. I still believe CV64>LOD occurs in an alternate timeline to the main (Iga) canon, however, it's my belief if the bad ending of CV64 happens that Mauls matures into an adult becoming the Dark Lord much later down the track. At this point an alternate (not from the main timeline) Richter Belmont inherits the VK and XX/Vampires Kiss takes place.

Yeah I saw that, really nice stuff there, it be fun do run with something like that... if I was in the driving seat.
But yeah nice stuff.

[X]

See my sig. I still believe CV64>LOD occurs in an alternate timeline to the main (Iga) canon, however, it's my belief if the bad ending of CV64 happens that Malus matures into an adult becoming the Dark Lord much later down the track. At this point an alternate (not from the main timeline) Richter Belmont inherits the VK and XX/Vampires Kiss takes place.

I didn't quote this Guy Belmont. It was zangetsu468, lol.

[KaZudra]

On an Unrelated note, I'm pretty sure IGAVANIA was IGA himself...

[Guy Belmont]

I didn't quote this Guy Belmont. It was zangetsu468, lol.

Damn.  Sorry... again.

[affinity]

Reinhardt is a pure-blooded Belmont. The only difference is his sir name. Many make the mistake that Patriarchy is the only way to have a pure bloodline. That's a terrible misconception that Patriarchal belief has established in society. It's garbage actually, if not sexist. If a woman of Belmont blood had a child with someone outside of the family that would not make the child any less of a Belmont. It's no different with the man of Belmont blood having a child with a woman outside of the family. The only difference is the name change. We have to keep in mind as well that CV64 (Apocalypse) came out before IGA had established his own personal CV mythos. Though, no doubt, it was in the works.

there's different ways to look at it though.   to those that only acknowledge the absolute pure blooded and maintain pure blood within a family, they would have to resort to incest to maintain that pure blood family tie.  Of course any family can start with unrelated pair producing a new line of relatives, however for a family bloodline to remain at its purest instead of mixed, there would have to be internal family reproduction to maintain the bloodline at its more pure.

that's where family clans come in as well, which can have branches of relatives all coming from the same source of purebloods.

with Belmont's case, it's flexible because the Belmont's clan agenda is not to maintain a family of inbred, but pure blooded Belmont is really not the case when from what I read, Belmonts really don't have strict guidelines who a belmont can bond with.

yes, someone from the Belmont line and different last name, is still a Belmont in a sense, but actually they are only completely a Belmont if they themselves perceive themselves as a Belmont.  just the family name changing doesn't remove the blood relations they have with both their parents. 

Now someone that is totally unrelated, could be adopted by a Belmont family, and be acknowledged as a Belmont, even without blood relation.  Just as someone that deserts the Belmont family, and abandons the family name, is not longer a Belmont by name but could be regarded as a Belmont by blood, though the blood relation doesn't matter if the individual cuts ties with that family title.   People can change after all, including the title.  Some may say they are still related, however, might as well say everyone is related since practically an entire species is from the same source/originals of their kind.

So there are different tiers and spectrums to identify someone's name and relation.  really, even family titles are more of a mutual acceptance thing.  so it's really unwritten rules, or illusionary rules that a family chooses to follow if they agree with those rules. 

if Miriam secretly had bloodties to Shanoa, for example, whether they know it or not, they are blood related, however they are considered unrelated since there's no proof, so even if Shanoa were to have a last name, Miriam wouldn't inherit that name if there's no family bond there to create family ties with a name, stuff like that.  So if Miriam is Shanoa's daughter, she would be related in blood only, without a shared family name.

family name really simply expresses family bonds and confirms relations, whether blood related or adopted.

[theplottwist]

I just want to chime in quickly to give an opinion about the Belmont ancestry:

I think the ownership of the whip itself and becoming a "true sucessor" has nothing to do with the bloodline, but actually with the act of passing the whip down from the previous legitimate owner to the next through bonding (which happens to have happened most between Belmont fathers and sons). Jonathan Morris seems to hint at that with two of his speechs:

"Vincent: Why of course I have! They've used that whip for generations to destroy Dracula. And that family is related to the Morris family by blood.

Jonathan: Been doing your research, huh? Unfortunately, the fact is, we're not the true successors. No problem, though. I've won every battle till now without the whip. Not one loss."

"Jonathan: I don't care! Being a family means being connected by heart. Ties of blood and soul is insignificant. When I learned why my father did what he did, I understood. You used a curse to manipulate your "dear daughters"! now THAT'S sad!"

IGA seems to make and effort to explain, through Portrait, that "family" is not something inherent to your soul or to your blood, but to relations you build. I'm not saying that there are NO blood/soul-inherited qualities, there are. What I'm saying is that these qualities are not important to become a legitimate heir of the Belmont line on the vampire-killing sense.

So this could potentially mean that, if a Belmont passes the whip to a non-Belmont with the intention of making this non-Belmont into his sucessor, then the sucessor would be a legitimate heir to the whip.

What I mean is that "correlation doesn't imply causation". Like, the Belmonts just happen to be "true sucessors" because a Father Belmont passing the whip to his Son Belmont is a centuries-old tradition upheld by their bonding, and not because there is some mystery mechanism on the whip that recognizes your DNA or your surname. Though their carry innate powers inherited by blood (as seen on Juste inheriting magical potential from Sypha), the inheritance of the whip seems (as of Portrait) to be a matter of family relationship to the previous true sucessor.

EDIT: Another such instance of this is Juste Belmont competing with Maxim to inherit the title of Vampire Killer and apparently gaining the Vampire Killer whip for this. What if Maxim had won this contest? Would HE inherit the Vampire Killer?




Now, it's important to mention that the european manual says nothing about this contest at all, and european manuals tend to be more true to the japanese. So take this with a grain of salt.

[X]

to those that only acknowledge the absolute pure blooded and maintain pure blood within a family, they would have to resort to incest to maintain that pure blood family tie.

There is no such thing as an absolute pure bloodline. It is impossible with the way we as a species are genetically designed. Incest is very dangerous as it brings about genetic deformities and illnesses that would be easily avoided simply by mating outside of said family. It is the difference that makes us strong. It is one of our many misconceptions of belief that mating within the family is needed in order to keep a bloodline pure. Many families of nobility from around the world had done this, but ended up paying a horrible price for it. The genetic code cannot be recycled properly without relying on a fresh infusion of DNA. As I've stated before a Belmont man or woman (it does not matter) whom has a child with a none Belmont will still produce a blooded Belmont child. This is how the Lecard and Morris clans were conceived. They aren't Belmont by name, but they carry the mystical properties of the Belmont clan in their blood.

EDIT: Another such instance of this is Juste Belmont competing with Maxim to inherit the title of Vampire Killer and apparently gaining the Vampire Killer whip for this. What if Maxim had won this contest? Would HE inherit the Vampire Killer?

I don't believe Maxim was in full possession of the facts regarding the whip. But he did state that he wanted to relieve Juste of the sad fate that bound every Belmont whom became a vampire hunter. If anything Maxim was doing this out of his deep friendship with Juste and not as a rival even though he was a rival to Juste. Anyone can become a vampire killer, but only a Belmont blood-relative or direct descendant can use the Vampirekiller whip. That's pretty much decided by the mystic properties of the Belmont blood, not the DNA itself. Magic, not genetics. And last time I checked Maxim is not related to the Belmonts in any way. Maxim could use it but it would be no different then swinging around a piece of metal. This was true for Jonathan Morris as well until the power was unlocked. But there would be no such luck for Maxim as he doesn't have the mystic properties of the Belmont bloodline within him.

[zangetsu468]

I don't personally believe we know enough about the Belmont "families" as such to question how or by exactly what means the VK is passed down. We know from OOE that despite the VK's heir always being a male "pure-blooded" Belmont, there are also female Belmonts born, Daniela for one, speaking of fighting monsters with her grandfather which means she was at least born from a Belmont. (unless her mother was a Belmont and her father wasn't, though this seems less likely given the grandfather was the one doing the fighting with Daniela). What this shows us is that Belmont procreation is not limited to male offspring.

This being why the player almost never sees another Belmont sibling (OOS is the exception) and why Dracula has never tried to kidnap another Belmont's sibling (in ROB or XX for example). In BR he kidnaps Soleiyu who also seems to be quite young, as he hasn't yet inherited the VK from Christopher. It still seems the most logical to me that  this was one of the reasons Legends was removed from Iga's canon - with Sonia not fitting the bill.

This ties in with a theory I had eons ago that every first born Belmont was a male, and this male always ended up inheriting the VK. If the first born always wielded the VK and put Dracula to back sleep, then their family and their land would be safe for another 100 years give or take. We don't see the prosperous times where everyone is having babies because each Belmont inheriting the VK and defeating Dracula is the start of a new generation of Belmonts. (the previous "pure-bloods" being all aged by then)

The theory for me is not about proving the logistics about every generation of Belmonts, it's looking at the generations holistically and finding the commonality between them, drawing a conclusion. This may also be causality; there's a Belmont heir to the VK and Dracula rises (and vice versa). Interestingly enough when Dracula was finally put to rest in 1999, Julius got amnesia (presumably he would've been a young man) and never procreated to produce a male heir.. Given AOS/ DOS' endings, perhaps there was no need for another Belmont after Julius.

[affinity]

the one thing that annoys me about Castlevania is that it mostly has that "holier than thou" routine of generally only featuring one badass Belmont per generation being active.

they could have done much more with like whats it called, it had a brother and two sisters that were all Belmonts, but only the brother had a whip and fought.  it was a cheap game anyway, but the sisters could have had their own enhanted whip.

heck, in LoS, an alchemist made a VK weapon for a Belmont from scratch.  it required sacrifice to power it up enough to affect the vampire,

 but there could be other means to obtain VK power, just like how Order of Ecclesia found other means to fight evil forces, even if it's strongest technique is fatal.

Castlevania and Bloodstained if it expands its own series, would be more interesting with like groups of hunters, instead of just practically a one hunter army.   

Yea, some like Bloodlines technically had like two hunters, Circle of the Moon had 3 hunters, but it had the gimmick of "oh! the poster protagonist gets separated from the others in the beginning!  and the jealous rival obviously goes off on their own"

Portrait of Ruin had two, though lore wise, it was really two teams of heroes since Stella and Loretta had their own adventure in the castle, even though the gameplay didn't accurately portray their mobility and power indepth before becoming vampires (and they didn't have development time to give them their own unique bosses).  it was more of a slapped on rushed story campaign, but it's still more meaningful than other extra mode campaigns.

Harmony of Despair wasn't story based, but it was still a great concept of up to 6 Hunters progressing together as a team.  that's actually what flesh and bone hunters would do to improve survivability.   though Castlevania has been often soloish with its protagonists, and concentrated on designing the gameplay for solo runs. 

though think expanding into more organized clan and group based campaigns, they could develop a more wholesome hunt.  yeah some may think it would make things too easy, however, as Dark Souls and Bloodborne proven, more hunters can actually make things tougher in some ways (though I really hate the summoning aspect of Dark Souls, instead of having recruitable hunters in the same dimension).

and they could balance it where hunters that are killed are eliminated for the rest of that campaign. so they could make there be camraderie, while also adding a sense of dread as progression is made, and the amount of hunters are reduced to 1, not based on story script, but based on gameplay survival circumstances. and multiplayer wouldn't be required to have the group experience.

they could make really interesting IGAvania games with more group of hunters aspects, though with the traditional format, it may be challenging to do, guess it would be better suited for something full 3D

[Ahasverus]

You guys expecting an Igarashi game to feature

- Thoughtful story
- gameplay innovation

Are in for a though awakening. You're getting cheap Dawn of Sorrow, at best. The man is a one trick pony.

[Shinobi]

For Juste and Maxim's case, nothing mentioned that they are competing for inheriting the Vampire Killer whip, it's more like they competing which one of them is a skillful fighter, that's about it.

[Foffy]

You guys expecting an Igarashi game to feature

- Thoughtful story
- gameplay innovation

Are in for a though awakening. You're getting cheap Dawn of Sorrow, at best. The man is a one trick pony.

The former might happen? I mean, IGA kind of has to establish a "game world."

Some of the backstory is much like what he did with the Sorrow series, in that he's linked a real world event to fiction. With the Sorrow games, it's the moon and a solar eclipse to defeat Dracula, and with Bloodstained, it's the Laki volcano eruption that occurred in the 1783 as a backdrop for a demonic summoning.

All I want is another Order of Ecclesia, and that's not too hard to accomplish. I also quite like ponies. :3c

[zangetsu468]

You guys expecting an Igarashi game to feature

- Thoughtful story
- gameplay innovation

Are in for a though awakening. You're getting cheap Dawn of Sorrow, at best. The man is a one trick pony.

Are you kidding. AOS>DOS>OOE was an exponential improvement in gameplay. Complex plots have never been CV's virtue, but it never had to be as 2d CV's gameplay superseded story and often used plot devices to make the gameplay better i.e. the Souls system/ Glyphs system and the introduction of Chaos and Dominus. These elements were both thoughtful and innovative.

I see your favourite game is Rondo, what did Rondo add to the overarching plot that was so fantastic? After 400 years Dracula finally worked out he could kidnap women? Please... One extra playable character and half-assed anime cutscenes were it. Go back to playing LOS (judging from your artwork) which did nothing for the series but give us an insight into Belmont Domestics 101 and shallow, non-existent, memento-style pseudo-character development.

[KaZudra]

I really hope level design takes a more Shantae Pirate's Curse approach, where your acquired abilities will be needed for progression and platform challanges as opposed to the default "Double Jump to access new area" approach.

[Shiroi Koumori]

You guys expecting an Igarashi game to feature

- Thoughtful story
- gameplay innovation

Are in for a though awakening. You're getting cheap Dawn of Sorrow, at best. The man is a one trick pony.

If it ends up that way, I'm totally fine with it.