Topic: The Map on Yoko's Room

[theplottwist]

In Dawn of Sorrow, on Yoko's room, there's a map on the wall. Even if it appears prominently featured due to the way it's framed, it is a map with no striking features at first glance, being there just to enrich the background. Within the game's universe, however, this map could be the only thing that marks the location of the Lost Village (which, in Japanese, is called the "Village Vanished From The Map").

For a long time I tried to find out if that map meant something or was from somewhere, because I know that these more artistic assets are made from a larger art created previously, and then scaled down and cleaned into pixel art format. I did not succeed for a very long time and started considering the map just a detail without significance (such as many across these games), but the flea behind my ear continued to disturb me. By luck, it's possible that I have now figured out where the map came from.

The same map appears as the background image during the Lament of Innocence credits:



Notice that the overall shape of some areas are eerily similar:






And that would not be the first thing appearing on Dawn that was used on Lament: Walter's exact castle appears on Dawn's title screen. My hypothesis was that Dawn events occurred on the same area as Lament, and now that hypothesis has gotten a bit stronger.

You will notice some inconsistencies on the maps, and I chalk those up to the compression that the original map suffered when it was converted and manually cleaned to be readable on the small screen as pixel art. It is possible that the pixel artist has modified colors and distorted some areas slightly (such as the topmost mountain range that seems stretched/wider in Dawn) in the correction/conversion process. But you can see that the area supposed to be a coastline fits perfectly even in the dark colors near the upper right corner of the two maps. You can also see the similarities of the mountain range at the top and the position of the details on the left side.

Now, as I said above, it's a POSSIBILITY, not a certainty, because of one detail: This image on Lament might not be a map at all. If you look closely, you can see at the top that those look like towers, not "map details", and this image might in fact be an illustration of Walter's Castle. However you can CLEARLY see what appear to be roads and mountain ranges on the same illustration, and a compass/wind rose symbol on the lower right, indicating that my analysis could be correct, and the map on Lament is heavily distorted because they transposed an image of Walter's Castle onto a map illustration.

[suomynona]

Wait, so is DoS set in Romania? I thought it was set in Japan.

Still, that map could only be a decoration or an easter egg.

[theplottwist]

Wait, so is DoS set in Romania? I thought it was set in Japan.

Celia's cult is called "With Light". In Japanese, it's written with Katakana ("Uizu raito") meaning that it's a foreign word to Japan. The cult's billboard on Lost Village, also, is not written in Japanese. Each of the members has a foreign name written in Katakana -- again, meaning foreign names. So it's a pretty safe assumption that the cult's base is not on Japan, but this does NOT mean Dawn takes place in Romania.

If my discovery is correct and Dawn happens on the same area as Lament, then Dawn most likely does not happen anywhere near Romania. Because at the end of Lament, Mathias flees to "faraway lands" -- these lands being Romania.

[Shiroi Koumori]

Great detective work plot!

@superc4: I second plot's explanation. Dawn does not take place in Japan. It takes place somewhere in Europe.

[zangetsu468]

It has to be in Europe imo. The streetscape outside of the castle has non-Japanese architecture and its vehicles look European.

[suomynona]

It has to be in Europe imo. The streetscape outside of the castle has non-Japanese architecture and its vehicles look European.

Yeh, but it's set in 2036, so I wouldn't be surprised if they built the buildings in European buildings. Most buildings looks like that nowdays. Also it could be some sort of Ijinkan (Japanese buildings/towns with classic Western architecture).

Trivia here, but while I was looking in Google maps, I found Hakuba-cho in Japan. It's about 25km west of Nagano. Apparently it falls within 2035 eclipse travel path (meaning thayt you could see the eclipse crystal-clear from that location). Not sure if they have shrine in there tho.

[zangetsu468]

Yeh, but it's set in 2036, so I wouldn't be surprised if they built the buildings in European buildings. Most buildings looks like that nowdays. Also it could be some sort of Ijinkan (Japanese buildings/towns with classic Western architecture).

Firstly 2036 isn't so far into the future. Not enough to alter the vernacular architecture of countries which have been established for hundreds and thousands of years.

I don't understand your comment about building buildings within buildings.

Secondly, it could be some western-looking town in Japan, but I'm choosing to use Occam's razor here. Given that plottwist has already noted evidence which is substantiated about a European location, assuming that "City Street" is in Japan, does not make sense.

[SecretWeapon]

Maybe the castle ruins under Celia's replica actually belong to Walter's  Castle.

[suomynona]

Firstly 2036 isn't so far into the future. Not enough to alter the vernacular architecture of countries which have been established for hundreds and thousands of years.

I don't understand your comment about building buildings within buildings.

Secondly, it could be some western-looking town in Japan, but I'm choosing to use Occam's razor here. Given that plottwist has already noted evidence which is substantiated about a European location, assuming that "City Street" is in Japan, does not make sense.

Oh, building buildings within building was a typo. It's supposed to say building buildings with European architecture/style. 

Also, what I was pointing at was that in 2036, there are modern buildings in Japan (obviously), and the town's buildings are modern buildings that is literally built everywhere around the world. So we can't determine where it is. In the intro, the town's name is Hakuba(-cho). Unless it's like Japanese-populated area and it's some kind of nickname for the town, there is no way in hell that European city will be named like that. At least the town is in Japan.

About Celia's castle, I think it's in Japan as well, because DoS is all set within one night. There's no way that Mina will be in Japan (her home) at the start (probably shortly after sunset) and arrive anywhere in Europe by the dawn (10 hours to at least land anywhere in Europe, almost 15 hours to Romania). Unless of some kind of teleport, but I didn't see a hint of it from Soma's side of people.

[theplottwist]

In the intro, the town's name is Hakuba(-cho).

Do you have source on that? I also believe the town in the intro is at Japan, but I'm yet to see a source for its name.

Unless you're talking about the scrolling text, which is actually talking about events in the past year.

About Celia's castle, I think it's in Japan as well, because DoS is all set within one night. There's no way that Mina will be in Japan (her home) at the start (probably shortly after sunset) and arrive anywhere in Europe by the dawn (10 hours to at least land anywhere in Europe, almost 15 hours to Romania). Unless of some kind of teleport, but I didn't see a hint of it from Soma's side of people.

Not a good idea to use Mina or time scale for two reasons:

1. We don't know if it really takes place over one single night. Granted, we only ever see the moon. But this is also a Demon Castle, and we've seen a Demon Castle produce artificial night before. On top of that, we've seen by Dracula's Castle that time does NOT follow an orderly flow inside a Demon Castle (OoE- Machine Tower, look at the outside). For all we know, it could've taken minutes to weeks to finish the quest. It's impossible to guess how long it took.

2. The start of the castle is not in the same day as the intro. Mina sends Soma a letter and in it she says that Soma disappeared right after the event with Celia at the intro, and the she grew worried that he might've gone after the cult. It takes more than one full day to grow worried to that point. So, you have here a believable large time span previous to Soma's arrival at the castle that could include Mina making her way after him and arriving just some hours past Soma's arrival at the castle. The time scale is also supported by a Yoko line, saying that it's been long now that Soma doesn't see Mina -- meaning that it COULD have been days ago that Soma left from home to reach the castle, and Mina followed behind. You can't comment on "how long it has been since you last saw a person" if it was just some hours ago.

[Foffy]

Maybe the castle ruins under Celia's replica actually belong to Walter's  Castle.

I always thought something like this. How would a cult get a castle that more or less has the usual flair of Dracula's castle? In games like Legacy of Darkness or Circle of the Moon, these were servants of Dracula.

My only assumption for an outsider to the servants was using a location that had similar powers and properties. The only location that alludes to this was Walter's castle, and I assumed the reuse of the image in the title screen was a hint to this. I didn't realize the map was reused, too.

[suomynona]

Do you have source on that? I also believe the town in the intro is at Japan, but I'm yet to see a source for its name.

Unless you're talking about the scrolling text, which is actually talking about events in the past year.

Not a good idea to use Mina or time scale for two reasons:

1. We don't know if it really takes place over one single night. Granted, we only ever see the moon. But this is also a Demon Castle, and we've seen a Demon Castle produce artificial night before. On top of that, we've seen by Dracula's Castle that time does NOT follow an orderly flow inside a Demon Castle (OoE- Machine Tower, look at the outside). For all we know, it could've taken minutes to weeks to finish the quest. It's impossible to guess how long it took.

2. The start of the castle is not in the same day as the intro. Mina sends Soma a letter and in it she says that Soma disappeared right after the event with Celia at the intro, and the she grew worried that he might've gone after the cult. It takes more than one full day to grow worried to that point. So, you have here a believable large time span previous to Soma's arrival at the castle that could include Mina making her way after him and arriving just some hours past Soma's arrival at the castle. The time scale is also supported by a Yoko line, saying that it's been long now that Soma doesn't see Mina -- meaning that it COULD have been days ago that Soma left from home to reach the castle, and Mina followed behind. You can't comment on "how long it has been since you last saw a person" if it was just some hours ago.

I see. Really can't think any critical info bout that, but still, here's what I think. Say like Soma entered castle itself and finished the job within a night. Most CV games tend to fit the time frame within one night of full moon. But, before the event told in-game, he laid low and investigated about the cult, it's not like Celia gave him the address or something. And he laid low for sake of protecting Mina, so it makes sense that she did not know anything about it. Also, it would take an entire day for transportation. (This is based on assumption to that Soma's hometown is Hakuba-cho in Nagano) First, travel from Hakuba-cho to Nagano. About 20 min. Then, From Nagano to Tokyo takes two or three hours. Then, he have to travel northward, at least to snow in mid-September (one year and a week-ish since AoS which is set on Sep 2, 2035). It'll then take about good 4 or 5 hours. Then, Soma have to travel from station/airport. The area seems quite remote, so about 1 more hour. It'll take half a day just for travelling from Soma's home to the Castle. Also, I'm driving this way too much, but if the Castle was in Europe, Things gets more complicated.

I dunno what I'm saying

[zangetsu468]

What I believe plottwist is stating is that there's two parts to the intro:
- The city/ town with scrolling text (photo attached) is Japan.
- The "City Street" level as well as the castle location is suggested to be in Europe.

Therefore the 2 are not exclusively the same area:
- One explains the backstory of events over the previous year.
- The other is an area which contains Celia's castle (buried in deep wood)... How deep we can't know, but there's a van covered with snow in the Lost City/ Forgotten City, which by the name is implied to have formerly been an actual city. If there's a van parked there, how far can it be from civilisation, maybe 1-4 hours (at a punt?) which Soma states he found, presumably on foot. (Any more and you be needing to drink, eat, sleep or crap in the woods).

The last point I want to make us something brought up about LOI's ending, that the Castle couldn't be in Romania due to Mathias fleeing for "faraway lands", this is in reference to DoS' Castle location. Firstly I don't see why the LOI Castle can't be in contemporary Romania, as I always took the ending to mean Mathias fled Walachia and went into solitude to gather his power. (This and there's evidence I've posted before of the Castle not belonging to Walter Bernhard) However let's assume that it is not in Romania, then if that line from LOI's ending stands, how far is far away - or more importantly in the context of 1094 - how far WAS far away? 1000km plus? The only method of travel back then was boat or horse and carriage.. Thing is, Europe is littered with castles and here are some fun facts, after the bit of research I've done (cbb posting links as I'm on a mobile phone, sorry) the name Cronqvist (spelled Kronqvist) seems most common today in Sweden and Finland, while Bernhard seems to be a German name, while Gandolfi is Italian. Given in theory that the Castle is supposedly "Castle Bernhard", is sit safe to assume it's situated "faraway" from contemporary Romania? I'm also curious at to whether LOI's map synchs with anywhere in the real world.

(I'm not sure where confirmation of Hakuba (cho) lies within DOS, however, it's interesting that in AOS Soma is walking up temple stairs in the intro (under a Japanese style temple arc) and DOS gives a city overview (attached) which looks similar to Kamakura town in Japan, which apparently contains a lot of Shinto temples, being some kind of medieval Japanese centre).

[zangetsu468]

Apologies for the double post, but I found something interesting, specifically regarding the map itself. See attached jpegs.

Also sorry if this is shit quality. I can't upload anything any larger. 

The first image is LOI's map, the middle image is a location in Sweden, but it's been mirrored. The bottom image is an undisclosed location in Europe (I literally lost the map but managed to salvaged the screen capture - if anyone knows, feel free to chime in).

[yamabigdog]

Nice find man, definitely great job on your part.  I never gave it much of a second look.