Topic: The Map on Yoko's Room

[Lumi Kløvstad]

Bernhard seems to be German in origin, while

It is indeed, and there's an intentional corollary with Walter's name and the name of "Vlad Tepes" -- the names Vlad and Walter both derive from the same Germanic root "Wald" which means "Ruler". In fact, the name Walter derives from the earlier "Waldihar" which literally means "Ruler of an Army". This name was apparently very deliberately chosen during development, and the desired implication at the time was that Mathias essentially becomes the next "Ruler" by double crossing Walter and using the Crimson Stone and Death's help to steal his power/essence, transforming into "Vlad", a new "Ruler" over Walter's legions, which would have explained how Dracula got his first servants.

Iga later backtracked on that a little bit with his later works. Early on, the idea seemed to be that Walter served as the previous Dark Lord, but this detail in particular seemed to have been retconned later into something more or less ambiguous about Walter's status, with the new stance mostly being that Walter was simply the most powerful vampire in existence at the time (both in terms of personal power and the numbers/capabilities of his servants) but not necessarily the "Dark Lord". Nevertheless, that core essence of that story --that command of the Earthly forces of Evil transferred to Dracula upon his ascension after killing Walter-- is still rooted in Dracula's origins in the current canon.

Crap, we were supposed to be talking about a map, I think.

[zangetsu468]

It is indeed, and there's an intentional corollary with Walter's name and the name of "Vlad Tepes" -- the names Vlad and Walter both derive from the same Germanic root "Wald" which means "Ruler". In fact, the name Walter derives from the earlier "Waldihar" which literally means "Ruler of an Army". This name was apparently very deliberately chosen during development, and the desired implication at the time was that Mathias essentially becomes the next "Ruler" by double crossing Walter and using the Crimson Stone and Death's help to steal his power/essence, transforming into "Vlad", a new "Ruler" over Walter's legions, which would have explained how Dracula got his first servants.

Iga later backtracked on that a little bit with his later works. Early on, the idea seemed to be that Walter served as the previous Dark Lord, but this detail in particular seemed to have been retconned later into something more or less ambiguous about Walter's status, with the new stance mostly being that Walter was simply the most powerful vampire in existence at the time (both in terms of personal power and the numbers/capabilities of his servants) but not necessarily the "Dark Lord". Nevertheless, that core essence of that story --that command of the Earthly forces of Evil transferred to Dracula upon his ascension after killing Walter-- is still rooted in Dracula's origins in the current canon.

Crap, we were supposed to be talking about a map, I think.

Interesting info.

If I had to take a stab at why Walter wasn't the Dark Lord, perhaps it was to do with ownership of the Crimson Stone. It also feels better left ambiguous so that Dracula isn't simply "filling a role" ie there needn't necessarily have to be a Dark Lord, which would explain and account for the time lapses between Dracula's resurrections.

[Guy Belmont]

Gandolfi seems to be Italian in origin

yeah Gandolfi What ever happen to his line,
 he just got dropped, I mean he helped make the vampire Killer, the vampire killer, !!!!!  the most powerful weapon in the canon.  aside from Giovanni (and he's not really canon)

It be nice have one set like in the 80s and a Gandolfi could help them out then.
Oh man that be so cool, like going to a club that's doing a black mass rave, (like in devil man) but this mass is to call power to Dracula. Oh man that be soooo cool, I can just see it, bored 80s kids &  yuppie trying to get a thrill. Oh and then the user of the whip could come down from the rafters and take them down. Ahhhh A CV set in the 80s, maybe in the cold war...
COME KONAMI.


But yeah i'd have loved to see more of his line, I think its a shame and missed opportunity. I mean they could have slipped him in even in if it was just in passing.

Like  In my work I always had it that  leonardo da vinci was of the Gandolfi  line, and helped power the whip up even more by adding more parts to it.

Oh come on Konami, I need a new CV set of games, come on guys really I'll buy em     
some that really focus on the Belmont's and evolve there game play, sort of like LOS MoF, but better
I mean just look what Capcom, Nintendo  And square enix are doing with there old IPs,
 
making them work in todays gaming market by reworking them, but keeping there core. And you could do the same to, You guys should be ashamed of yourselves .

[Dracula9]

I love this fanbase's ability to turn literally any discussion over any subject even remotely relating to anything Castlevania into a "Konami sucks because they're not making CV games" bashing session.

Just kidding it's actually really annoying that it comes up it seems just about every other thread these days. 

Especially when they're being compared to other corporations as if those other corporations are without sin or guilt. Not one of those three are "good" examples, with the exception of Ninty putting out Mario Maker being arguably one of the best things they've ever released.

-If Konami's guilty of ignoring/mistreating their "biggest" IP, then so's Capcom since they've done roughly the same kind of thing to wee Mega.

-Ninty smothered AM2R in its crib as soon as it got home from the maternity ward, and thought Federation Force was a good idea. Not really "keeping the core" when you botch your official stuff and kill the fan stuff that does it better than you.

-Squeenix? Keeping the "core" of its franchises? Ha. I'm sure all the oldschool FF players would agree with you there. Make everyone stupidly pretty, make everything all shiny and wow and keep the same kind of combat system they've been regurgitating since Crisis Core but with one slight difference this time? I don't think so, though this is subjective as hell as to what "core" means. Same deal here--some fans went to do a better CT remake than Squeenix did, Squeenix killed it before it even left the womb. But they know how to "rework" their stuff and retain the "core" of what made us love it? Sure doesn't seem that way.

Not every thread is a "Konami sucks" soapbox.

Perhaps we should just start a general Konami complaint thread to corral it all into one place, rather than having it bog up every other thread like it has been for ages now?

[Shiroi Koumori]

If I am not mistaken, there was a Konami sucks thread before.
But technically all video game companies have their bad days, some just have way more of those than others.

[redrum]

wow, good eye.  the cv3 map would've done nicely in this place as well

[DragonSlayr81]

Maybe the castle ruins under Celia's replica actually belong to Walter's  Castle.

I always held on to this theory, even back when DoS was released. I saw a lot of the areas within Celia's castle to be modern versions of the areas in Walter's Castle (House of Sacred Remains -> Dark Chapel, Anti-Soul Mysteries Lab -> Wizardry Lab, Ghostly Theater -> Demon Guest House, Dark Palace of Waterfalls -> Subterranean Hell, and Garden Forgotten by Time -> Garden of Madness). The Lost Village was built in an area that was formerly the Forest of Eternal Night (over 1000 prior, thus without the veil and threat of monsters, people built a town within that grew to a nice size). I'd think Subterranean Hell is the 1000 year old ruins of what is left of Dark Palace of Waterfalls after Walter's Castle crumbled (hence a lot of it is submerged and structures have been water-worn for a millennium). I also think the Condemned Tower was built over where the Prison of Eternal Torture once was, and the Mines of Judgement were an extended portion of the Prison that remained intact, and perhaps excavated sometime int he 1000 after LoI (Forgotten One's chamber, however, remained demolished and buried).

Though the first hint I got (even though it is likely do to just reusing assets) is that both LoI and DoS use the same render art of the Walter's Castle:

[Aria]

I always held on to this theory, even back when DoS was released. I saw a lot of the areas within Celia's castle to be modern versions of the areas in Walter's Castle (House of Sacred Remains -> Dark Chapel, Anti-Soul Mysteries Lab -> Wizardry Lab, Ghostly Theater -> Demon Guest House, Dark Palace of Waterfalls -> Subterranean Hell, and Garden Forgotten by Time -> Garden of Madness). The Lost Village was built in an area that was formerly the Forest of Eternal Night (over 1000 prior, thus without the veil and threat of monsters, people built a town within that grew to a nice size). I'd think Subterranean Hell is the 1000 year old ruins of what is left of Dark Palace of Waterfalls after Walter's Castle crumbled (hence a lot of it is submerged and structures have been water-worn for a millennium). I also think the Condemned Tower was built over where the Prison of Eternal Torture once was, and the Mines of Judgement were an extended portion of the Prison that remained intact, and perhaps excavated sometime int he 1000 after LoI (Forgotten One's chamber, however, remained demolished and buried).

Though the first hint I got (even though it is likely do to just reusing assets) is that both LoI and DoS use the same render art of the Walter's Castle:

First, this thread  - map, history and explanations is like... WOW.. .*mind-blown*
Seriously, I love when one can find so much connections in such simple and little details in the games. The map connection was superb, especially when I played LOI as my first Castlevania way back in the day (and played it over & over beyond a dozen times, to the point of probably burning it, lol) and played DOS several times also and did not notice this small detail, although the map in Yoko's room nagged at me as looking familiar - like I've seen it in another CV game.

But the above castle image comparisons, just sheer amazing! The similarities cannot go unnoticed. It's seriously impressive, along with the location/stage comparisons makes a lot of sense. It's a really impressive comparison with both games!

[zangetsu468]

The only thing that nags at me with LOI's castle being DOS' castle is it being described as a "towering replica of Dracula's Castle" (which I believe is stated on the back of the box) purely given that LOI's Castle is largely not believed to be Dracula's Castle. Maybe this is simply a translation issue, but it adds to the fact I've never thought of LOI's castle as "towering", I can only recall an actual tower/ outer wall in one part of the game (where you fight the optional boss and receive the lightning whip) and I thought the place was relatively regular aside from Pagoda.

I won't however deny the similarities between the two, it's possible they just rebuilt it upon the ruins or it was rebuilt in the past and used by Celia's cult.

[theplottwist]

The only thing that nags at me with LOI's castle being DOS' castle is it being described as a "towering replica of Dracula's Castle" (which I believe is stated on the back of the box) purely given that LOI's Castle is largely not believed to be Dracula's Castle. Maybe this is simply a translation issue, but it adds to the fact I've never thought of LOI's castle as "towering", I can only recall an actual tower/ outer wall in one part of the game (where you fight the optional boss and receive the lightning whip) and I thought the place was relatively regular aside from Pagoda.

I won't however deny the similarities between the two, it's possible they just rebuilt it upon the ruins or it was rebuilt in the past and used by Celia's cult.

The castle did crumble at the end of Lament, and there's almost 1000 years until Dawn. They would have to rebuild it.

The "replica" thing is not a translation issue. IGA referred to it as a replica of Dracula's Castle himself, but the game explains that the "replica" part is on the "Demon Castle" part, not on the "Dracula's Castle". Celia is trying to make the castle into a replica of Dracula's Castle by turning it into a Demon Castle, like Dracula's was.

[zangetsu468]

The castle did crumble at the end of Lament, and there's almost 1000 years until Dawn. They would have to rebuild it.

The "replica" thing is not a translation issue. IGA referred to it as a replica of Dracula's Castle himself, but the game explains that the "replica" part is on the "Demon Castle" part, not on the "Dracula's Castle". Celia is trying to make the castle into a replica of Dracula's Castle by turning it into a Demon Castle, like Dracula's was.

DoS' Castle does feel more regimented than AoS'. Even comparing the maps it's quite evident that this is the case. I also don't think they included the map on Yoko's room for no good reason and the parallels with LOI's castle leads me to believe this is the case.

[Aria]

DoS' Castle does feel more regimented than AoS'. Even comparing the maps it's quite evident that this is the case. I also don't think they included the map on Yoko's room for no good reason and the parallels with LOI's castle leads me to believe this is the case.

It's true that DoS' Castle feels more regimented. If one compares the AOS & DOS castles, AOS' castle is more 'mystical' & 'unstable' with places like the Floating Gardens, and Forbidden Area which even houses a ghost ship within (I thought that to be an awesome reference to other Castlevania series like DXC, etc.).

The biggest takeaway between both is that AOS' castle houses the Chaotic Realm where Chaos itself was located - the source of all chaos and Dracula's own power, while in the DOS' castle was the Abyss - a place similar to Hell and possibly the closest place to be able to connect to the Chaotic Realm which would be needed to convert the castle Celia was using into Castlevania itself. Yet, the DOS' castle has more locations & references to LOI's castle, back when it was in the forest of Eternal Night, which could now be the Lost Village.