Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [ID] Topic: The second most difficult Castlevania thread in history  (Read 16197 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Nagumo

  • Midnight Memory
  • Global Moderator
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 3119
  • Gender: Female
  • Awards Town Crier: Updates the forum with many news items, often not even Castlevania. Capable of resolving arguments/fights peacefully without mod/admin intervention. The Unfazed: Never loses his/her calm, even in the most heated arguments. Master Debater: Gracefully argues 'til the cows come home about topics.
    • Awards
  • Likes:
The second most difficult Castlevania thread in history
« on: July 03, 2017, 02:31:02 AM »
+2
Let's try making sense out of PoR's story.

How does the whole "Brauner controls the power of the castle with his paintings" thing actually work? What does "controlling the castle's power" mean exactly? We know Brauner wants control over the castle's power but what does he plan to do with it exactly? Near the end of the game it's mentioned Brauner is working on "a painting that can destroy the world". Is that what he needed the castle's power for? How exactly can you destroy the world with a painting?

     

Offline The Puritan

  • Vagabond
  • Vampire Hunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 433
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania: Symphony of the Night (PS1/SS)
  • Likes:
Re: The second most difficult Castlevania thread in history
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2017, 02:55:35 AM »
0
Aren't Brauner's paintings embodiments of his will? He was probably making some apocalyptic force/Lovecraftian abomination within his painting, and he only needed the castle's power to bring it to life.

Offline zangetsu468

  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 3128
  • God bless the hustler, curse the first sleeper
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia (NDS)
  • Likes:
Re: The second most difficult Castlevania thread in history
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2017, 03:20:34 AM »
0
Brauner's paintings are an embodiment of his (the artist's) will. The way I see it Brauner was only having control of the castle's power by siphoning (or diverting) the power to Dracula's Throne room into create his final masterpiece which he didn't get to finish due to
(click to show/hide)
It's not ever explained exactly how this was going to take place. From what comes out of his brush in the final battle with him, one could assume is was to be a hellish monster of sorts.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[Judgement]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                              
                **<<<<<SuperCVIV>COTM<<<<<<<<+
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^
                                 ^      l   v  ^    +<<<<<<<BE
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v                 ^  
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     BE>>> VK<**   
                                 ^      l   v  ^    v     ^          ^   
            +<<<<<Legends>HC>OOS>LOD>64       ^
            v                           l              ^                ^
            v                           l     BE>> * <<<BE    RE
            v                           l      ^               ^       ^
LOI>CVIII>COD>AR>BR>CVC>CVII>HOD>ROB>SOTN>OOE>BL>POR>AOS>DOS>>>KD
                                                                          v
                                                                         BE>*  
BE=Bad Ending
RE=Richter Ending

Offline theplottwist

  • Canon Literalist
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1850
  • プロットツイスト君
  • Awards 2018-06 Sprite Contest First Place 2017-07-Sprite Contest 2nd PLace 2016-09-Sprite Contest First Place 2015 - Christmas Award First Place 2015 - Halloween Sprite Contest - Second Place
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania Adventure Rebirth (Wii)
  • Likes:
Re: The second most difficult Castlevania thread in history
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2017, 07:24:07 AM »
+1
Let's try making sense out of PoR's story.

How does the whole "Brauner controls the power of the castle with his paintings" thing actually work?

(click to show/hide)

Quote
We know Brauner wants control over the castle's power but what does he plan to do with it exactly? Near the end of the game it's mentioned Brauner is working on "a painting that can destroy the world". Is that what he needed the castle's power for? How exactly can you destroy the world with a painting?

(click to show/hide)

EDIT: Spoiler tags because wall of text.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 10:51:13 AM by theplottwist »
The mastermind behind the "Umbra of Sorrow" project. But not the only one.

Offline DraculaCronqvist

  • Demon King
  • Vampire Hunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 188
  • Gender: Male
  • I shall give you the answer along with your death!
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania: The DraculaX Chronicles (PSP)
  • Likes:
Re: The second most difficult Castlevania thread in history
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2017, 10:04:22 AM »
0
As mentioned previously, Brauner uses his inherent magic, his paintings, to redirect and syphon off the power off the castle, redirecting it into his grand masterwork he wants to unleash upon the world. By blocking the throne room, he drew the power used to resurrect Dracula into his painting. Thus, when the painting was destroyed, all the released energy accumulated through WWII resurrected Dracula immediately. However, his usurping of the Castle was evidently only that. He didn't become its true master, as he could not shape the castle to his will like Dracula can.

As for what the masterwork Brauner planned... Maybe he painted the entire world ruined and the accumulation of enough power would have made it so? Or he would have painted a giant creature filled with the power he syphoned off? The picture was nowhere near enough completion to really guess, nor do we know if his plan would have actually succeeded. After all, his other paintings did not syphon off power from the Castle but just blocked the flow of energy to the throne room and his masterwork. We never really saw him make active use of the power of the Demon Castle on such a grand scale.
"It's not that I don't love to run into the heart of danger... Actually, that's exactly it."
"Individualism is a path fraught with obstacles, and sometimes angry mobs, but for all its hardships it is the only one worth taking."

Offline X

  • Xenocide
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 9361
  • Gender: Male
  • Awards SuperOld Dungeonite: Members who have been around since the oldOLD days. The Unfazed: Never loses his/her calm, even in the most heated arguments. The Retro Gamer: Has a heated passion for the oldschool VG Titles.
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Super Castlevania IV (SNES)
  • Likes:
Re: The second most difficult Castlevania thread in history
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2017, 11:31:05 AM »
0
His end of the world painting looked like a picaso
"Spirituality is God's gift to humanity...
Religion is Man's flawed interpretation of Spirituality given back to humanity..."

Offline DraculaCronqvist

  • Demon King
  • Vampire Hunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 188
  • Gender: Male
  • I shall give you the answer along with your death!
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania: The DraculaX Chronicles (PSP)
  • Likes:
Re: The second most difficult Castlevania thread in history
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2017, 05:11:15 PM »
0
(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

EDIT: Spoiler tags because wall of text.

Is Dracula really asking for power, though? Isn't that just the English translation? In the original, he says "Ware ni chikara wo...", if memory serves correctly and that does not imply so much asking as demanding power, if my Japanese doesn't fail me here.
"It's not that I don't love to run into the heart of danger... Actually, that's exactly it."
"Individualism is a path fraught with obstacles, and sometimes angry mobs, but for all its hardships it is the only one worth taking."

Offline theplottwist

  • Canon Literalist
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1850
  • プロットツイスト君
  • Awards 2018-06 Sprite Contest First Place 2017-07-Sprite Contest 2nd PLace 2016-09-Sprite Contest First Place 2015 - Christmas Award First Place 2015 - Halloween Sprite Contest - Second Place
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania Adventure Rebirth (Wii)
  • Likes:
Re: The second most difficult Castlevania thread in history
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2017, 05:13:35 PM »
0
Is Dracula really asking for power, though? Isn't that just the English translation? In the original, he says "Ware ni chikara wo...", if memory serves correctly and that does not imply so much asking as demanding power, if my Japanese doesn't fail me here.

Asking, demanding, I don't always hit the nail on the head with English. He is the true master of the castle, so him demanding, ordering, would be more fitting I guess.
The mastermind behind the "Umbra of Sorrow" project. But not the only one.

Offline Shiroi Koumori

  • Guardian of the Night
  • Global Moderator
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 4667
  • Gender: Female
  • Birth, Death and Rebirth... Everything is a cycle.
  • Awards 2018-06 Sprite Contest Runner-Up 2015-04- Sprite Contest Silver Permanent Resident: Seems to always be around to post/reply. The Unfazed: Never loses his/her calm, even in the most heated arguments.
    • My DeviantArt Page
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania: Symphony of the Night (PS1/SS)
  • Likes:
Re: The second most difficult Castlevania thread in history
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2017, 10:18:20 PM »
0
Is Dracula really asking for power, though? Isn't that just the English translation? In the original, he says "Ware ni chikara wo...", if memory serves correctly and that does not imply so much asking as demanding power, if my Japanese doesn't fail me here.

Based on my experience with anime, etc. When someone says that line, it implies the translation to be "Power/Strength (come) to me".

Offline Super Waffle

  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 2138
  • Obliterated CharloNathan and has no regrets
  • Awards Permanent Resident: Seems to always be around to post/reply. The Pervert: Sneaks in any and all innuendo into threads that he/she can.
    • The zone
    • Awards
  • Likes:
Re: The second most difficult Castlevania thread in history
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2017, 11:23:26 PM »
0
I think he was just playing Mario 64 and he thought the idea was cool.

Offline Lelygax

  • The Wanderer
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 4552
  • Its useless, its all useless.
  • Awards 2017-07-Sprite Contest First Place Permanent Resident: Seems to always be around to post/reply.
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania: Harmony of Dissonance (GBA)
  • Likes:
Re: The second most difficult Castlevania thread in history
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2017, 03:14:59 AM »
+1
He was working in a painting called "Lords of Shadow". He couldn't finish it before dying but someone else found and sold it, destroying their world.
(click to show/hide)
Hau auu~     

Offline Nagumo

  • Midnight Memory
  • Global Moderator
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 3119
  • Gender: Female
  • Awards Town Crier: Updates the forum with many news items, often not even Castlevania. Capable of resolving arguments/fights peacefully without mod/admin intervention. The Unfazed: Never loses his/her calm, even in the most heated arguments. Master Debater: Gracefully argues 'til the cows come home about topics.
    • Awards
  • Likes:
Re: The second most difficult Castlevania thread in history
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2017, 05:37:09 AM »
+1
Thanks everyone for posting your theories. However, I took a look at the Japanese dialogue of this game, and I must conclude that, once again, the source of all the confusion is the localization. It's because of the localization that we English speaking fans ended up making a lot of wrong assumptions about the story. I realize now that in reality, PoR's story is actually quite simple.  Let me explain.

I've formatted my post so the normal text is the original Japanese, the blue text is my English translation, and the green text is official translation which I've included for comparison purposes.


At the beginning of the game, Charlote says the following:

Quote from: Charlotte
これだけの魔力を放つ城。私が本で調べた悪魔城以外考えられない
A castle that emits this much magical power. It's unthinkable that this is anything other than the demon castle I've read about in books.
This castle is pulsing with dark magical power. I can't imagine it's anything but the  castle of Lord Dracula that I studied in the books.

This might seem like a throwaway line at first, but this is going to be important later in the story, so let's keep this in mind.

This brings up to the first conversation with Wind:
(click to show/hide)

The official translation is pretty close but whoever translated seemed to have overlooked that the magical power/magic (魔力) that Wind is talking about is the magical power emitted by Dracula's castle. This line is absolutely crucial to understand what Brauner is doing. His paintings are like sponges that absorb the magical power emitted by Dracula's castle. Because the magic emitted by the castle is stored inside his paintings he is able to use this power for his own purposes.   
 
(click to show/hide)

Footnotes:

* What Charlotte says here is a conformation of Wind's earlier line about Brauner infusing magical power (which is emitted from Dracula's castle) inside his paintings to make that power his own.
** In my opinion, a more accurate translation would be "black magic reinforcement". In other words, a method which makes it more difficult for a magic spell to be undone my someone else by hiding it behind a series of barriers. (Brauner's paintings).
*** The magic Charlotte is talking about is refering to Brauner's magic, not Dracula's.
**** "封じる" can mean "to seal" but it can be used figuratively to mean "to put an end to something". Just like English, there are tons of verbs in Japanese that are used figuratively. In this case, the usage is clearly meant in a figurative sense because we never see Charlotte and Jonathan actually sealing away any magic.   

After Charlotte and Jonathan defeat Dullahan, there is the following exchange:
(click to show/hide)

Footnotes:

* "核" can mean "core" but that doesn't really explain anything so I think the translator choose the wrong definition here. It can also refer to the pit inside certain fruits which encompasses the seed (hence "outer husk"). That already makes way more sense because the bosses inside these paintings are supposed to act as a last line of defense against anyone who enters the painting in order to destroy the magic contained within. In fact, maybe "last line of defense" would work the best as a translation. 
** Just to be clear, Jonathan is refering to the magical power emitted by Dracula's castle here.
*** This line is refering to how Brauner's magic has decreased a little bit. The official translation made things unnecessarily complicated by translating it as "the power to control the castle".

With the confusion caused by the localization (mostly) out of the way, I can give a short and simple summary of the story:

"Dracula's castle is brought back during WWII by Brauner. However, the only thing he cares about is harvesting the magical power that Dracula's castle emits. He stores away this magical power inside his paintings which allows him to harness that power himself and become more powerful. He wants to use this power to destroy humanity because of what happend to his daughters during WWI.  "

There's still some translation wackiness near the end. Let's take a look in order to wrap this up completely.

Quote
Death:
アトリエの絵によって、ドラキュラ様が蘇るべき玉座の間を切り離すとは…。考えたものよ。だが、これで我が主は蘇る。ははははは
Cutting off the throne room where Lord Dracula is expected to revive through means of his atelier painting... A clever plan. Alas, now I can revive Lord Dracula! Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!
The studio painting was cutting off the throne needed to revive Lord Dracula. A clever plan. Alas, now my lord can be revived!  Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!
   

This line was very weirdly translated. The way Death is talking here is that it's common sense that Dracula revives in the Throne Room. However, nowhere is it mentioned the Throne Room is needed to revive Dracula. That's just making things unnecessarily complex. My take on this is that when Brauner revived the castle, he quickly sealed away the Throne Room because he knew Dracula was going to show up there, trapping him there. What I'm not sure of is if Dracula is trapped there from the very beginning of the game or if he revived in there near the end of the game and discovered he was trapped there. Anyway, it's not hard to understand the gist of it. 

One final thing:

Quote
Charlotte:
この先から、ものすごい魔力を感じるわ。
I sense terribly powerful magic up ahead.

Jonathan:
ジョナサン
この先に城の力を取り戻したドラキュラがいるって事か。
Up ahead is Dracula who has reclaimed the castle's power.
Meaning Dracula's that way, restoring the castle's  power?
 

This line simply indicates Dracula regained the magical power that Brauner stole from the castle.

This is just my take on the story, of course. I'm not claiming it as absolute gospel or anything. Too bad Koutei isn't here. I'm curious whether or not he concurs with this.     
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 05:39:51 AM by Nagumo »

Offline theplottwist

  • Canon Literalist
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1850
  • プロットツイスト君
  • Awards 2018-06 Sprite Contest First Place 2017-07-Sprite Contest 2nd PLace 2016-09-Sprite Contest First Place 2015 - Christmas Award First Place 2015 - Halloween Sprite Contest - Second Place
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania Adventure Rebirth (Wii)
  • Likes:
Re: The second most difficult Castlevania thread in history
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2017, 10:38:17 AM »
0
Nagumo's post.

Thank you for bringing this to light!

I have some contentions with specific lines, however, as certain interpretations given by you contradict specific dialogue coming after--some of which were translated by you. More or less like "your translation is contradicting itself".

However, for now, I'll point an unrelated logic inconsistency, not a translation inconsistency:

Quote
This line was very weirdly translated. The way Death is talking here is that it's common sense that Dracula revives in the Throne Room. However, nowhere is it mentioned the Throne Room is needed to revive Dracula.

This does not need to be mentioned. If Brauner sealed the Throne Room and this act causes Dracula's revival to not be attainable, that means the Throne Room is necessary for his revival, otherwise Dracula would be revived already.

Also, your own translation just above does say "Now I can revive Lord Dracula", meaning he has not yet revived at all.

Quote
This is just my take on the story, of course. I'm not claiming it as absolute gospel or anything.

As much as I don't fully trust your current interpretation, I trust that you're looking to be as close as to the creator as intended, and the intention of the creator IS a clear cut thing. If I can get over the issues I'm having with your interpretation/translation, I'm ready to accept it as a source closer to the truth.

Also, just to be clear: Some sections I agree are mistranslations (such as "Dracula has regained the power of the castle" instead of "Dracula is restoring the power of the castle"), and already am properly revising my own interpretation to fit the correct translation, since now it's proven to be wrong in some parts. My problem is with INTERPRETATION of some lines, and not exactly the translation. When you add a parenthesis with "(of the castle)" inside them, the intention of the line changes and the logic of some lines after it break -- what I am perceiving as the above mentioned contradictions. I've translated the line myself, and the interpretation I get from it within the context of the other lines is still the same as I pointed on my first post: Brauner's own power is infused on his paintings to make them walls protecting the painting manipulating the power of the castle.

This logic appears to be corroborated when you get to the end, and Brauner's Studio Painting is covered in chains (meaning you have to destroy the barriers protecting it -- the other paintings -- before you can access it). When we start talking about every painting having the power of the castle, the chains make very little sense.

But again, thanks for the heads up!
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 11:10:16 AM by theplottwist »
The mastermind behind the "Umbra of Sorrow" project. But not the only one.

Offline Nagumo

  • Midnight Memory
  • Global Moderator
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 3119
  • Gender: Female
  • Awards Town Crier: Updates the forum with many news items, often not even Castlevania. Capable of resolving arguments/fights peacefully without mod/admin intervention. The Unfazed: Never loses his/her calm, even in the most heated arguments. Master Debater: Gracefully argues 'til the cows come home about topics.
    • Awards
  • Likes:
Re: The second most difficult Castlevania thread in history
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2017, 11:25:01 AM »
0
This does not need to be mentioned. If Brauner sealed the Throne Room and this act causes Dracula's revival to not be attainable, that means the Throne Room is necessary for his revival, otherwise Dracula would be revived already.

Also, your own translation just above does say "Now I can revive Lord Dracula", meaning he has not yet revived at all.

Yeah, you're right. I'm going to backpedal on that statement. However, I'm still sceptical that the Throne Room is needed to revive Dracula. Are we sure that's the only thing that makes sense? For example, what if Dracula's remains are inside the Throne Room? That could also be reason why Dracula couldn't be revived and it makes sense what we already know. "The Throne Room is neccessary in order to revive Dracula" seems like a completely arbitrary and unneccessary rule to me. Also, then Death's "Now I can revive Lord Dracula"'s line would make sense since he would have access to Dracula's body.     

Offline theplottwist

  • Canon Literalist
  • Master Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1850
  • プロットツイスト君
  • Awards 2018-06 Sprite Contest First Place 2017-07-Sprite Contest 2nd PLace 2016-09-Sprite Contest First Place 2015 - Christmas Award First Place 2015 - Halloween Sprite Contest - Second Place
    • Awards
  • Favorite Game: Castlevania Adventure Rebirth (Wii)
  • Likes:
Re: The second most difficult Castlevania thread in history
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2017, 11:41:39 AM »
0
Are we sure that's the only thing that makes sense? For example, what if Dracula's remains are inside the Throne Room? That could also be reason why Dracula couldn't be revived and it makes sense what we already know. "The Throne Room is neccessary in order to revive Dracula" seems like a completely arbitrary and unneccessary rule to me. Also, then Death's "Now I can revive Lord Dracula"'s line would make sense since he would have access to Dracula's body.     

OK, let's assume the remains are inside the Throne Room for a minute, and that's what Death needed: Why would Death say he needed the Throne Room instead of saying he needed Dracula's body/remains/soul contained within the Throne Room? Why is he talking about the ROOM and leaving the most crucial part (in this hypothetical case, Dracula's remains) out of the picture?

That looks like too many leaps of faith for the writers to expect us to make. We don't know if there ARE remains or WHERE they are, and they could be with Death, too, instead of in the Throne Room, right? Though we see Dracula's coffin on the Throne Room, we also see his coffin on the Throne Room on the first Castlevania, and we know FOR A FACT that Dracula was not revived on the Throne Room on the first Castlevania. Ergo, the coffin present on the Throne Room does not mean much, if anything.

May not be the ONLY thing that makes sense, but is the one that (for me, at this moment) requires the less leaps of faith and has more evidence for: The Throne Room is important by itself. Much more important than the rest of the castle.

Death only says the Throne Room is necessary. Again I'll invoke that the entirety of the Castlevania lore is not confined to a single game or line of dialogue -- It's a puzzle:

-HoD first establishes (through Death) that the castle being whole is important for reviving Dracula. The plot reveals that either castle is not really Dracula's castle until they are merged (and the Throne Room in this game does not even have a throne in either version of the castle!).
-Aria establishes that the Throne Room is more important than simply "a room with a throne in it". It's the place that grants lordship over the entire castle and its powers to whoever reaches it.
-The novel establishes that, while the entire castle changes, the Throne Room never does, showing that it does have something special that other parts of the castle do not.

So I don't quite see the problem with the Throne Room being needed to accomplish Dracula's resurrection. I may not know the mechanics behind it, but I imagine that severing away the place where the master is supposed to command from, from the structure that is directly connected to the master's revival cycle (Remember that? Established on pratically all games with actual lore), may have an actual effect on his revival cycle.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 12:51:59 PM by theplottwist »
The mastermind behind the "Umbra of Sorrow" project. But not the only one.

Tags:
 

anything