Topic: Castlevania: Lords of Shadow - Mirror of Fate 3DS (Discussion Thread)

[Vampire Killer]

The main problems seem to be:

-"We have taken the basic combat engine from Lords of Shadow and dropped it directly into the game." - no sign of understanding that 2.5D platformer combat is necessarily and beneficially different from 3D combat (as expected from a 3D dev); combat resembling LoS at all does not bode well for a 2.5D game since it would be unbelievably tedious compared to typical 2D platformer combat.

So, what you're essentially saying is that you want the "combat" to be the same exact thing it's been for the pat 20 odd years, sans LoS. And yes, even with games like SotN and AoS, the combat was basically the same as Cv1, you just had more weapons to choose from (no real combos, just single attacks). Don't get me wrong, I love the Iga game, and what came before, but I'm glad to see more of an action game style in Cv. Makes the fights more interesting.

[DarkPrinceAlucard]

Makes the fights more interesting.

And more "repetitive" if you ask me.

That is one of the main complaints I have seen from LOS from dislikers to supporters alike, they both at some point found that the battles dragged on for to long.

That was the thing with the "older" games, you did not have to do a 10 hit combo just to take out a skeleton, but even then, games like SCIV and CVIII still turned out to be some pretty challenging games.

Honestly LOS combo making its way into this game is not a deal breaker for me, I just hope that they took some of the fan complaints into account and I don't have to do a bunch of combos just to take out lower level enemies.

[meanguyjones]

And more "repetitive" if you ask me.

That is one of the main complaints I have seen from LOS from dislikers to supporters alike, they both at some point found that the battles dragged on for to long.

That was the thing with the "older" games, you did not have to do a 10 hit combo just to take out a skeleton, but even then, games like SCIV and CVIII still turned out to be some pretty challenging games.

Honestly LOS combo making its way into this game is not a deal breaker for me, I just hope that they took some of the fan complaints into account and I don't have to do a bunch of combos just to take out lower level enemies.

Are you guys not using the dark gauntlet attacks or something? Air launchers? Shadow magic abilities? Subweapon weaknesses? I never found it taking too long to dispatch enemies.

[Charlotte-nyo:3]

I see you points Charlotte and they are very valid points so you have earned my respect but again I see them as personal concerns and not problems to which could be disastrous for a castlevania game due to the fact there have been far worse games in the series. There is nothing wrong with voicing your concern and Im not attacking those concerns, thats why we have these forums I personally just see them as concerns and not problems. We will have to wait to see what exactly we are in store for with this new title, so far personally I think its looking more like a castlevania than what LOS offered but I personally am reluctant because I feel burned from MS. I felt like I got a different game than the one I was promised albeit LOS was a great game but not really that much of a Castlevania or at least one I prefer.

Thanks for the respectful tone of your response.

Just a minor point, but I would say that in the current age of gaming, though, there's less leeway for worse games compared to the leeway there was during the series' earlier years due to the ever increasing budgets needed to put out professionally developed titles. Back in the day, a professional dev could put out a couple unpraiseworthy titles in a row and still keep on chugging. That said I seriously doubt the game will lose money or anything, so it's not that much of an issue.

As far as concerns vs problems or personal problems with a title vs factual problems (which I think is what you're getting at), it's kind of hard to call too much beyond the obvious bugs or counter-intuitive issues factually problems given evaluation of games is a subjective affair and thus to some extent subject to what one finds fun or what one doesn't. I did point out some things I felt looked to be the wrong approach if their goal is to go for a more nonlinear exploration-based game though--which they mention they're going for in the article. That's still not necessarily going to be an assurance that it's factually a problem--some people may find it works for them and others may not--but since it's interacting with what they say they're setting out to do with the game, it's a step above "I don't find this fun." (Which of course some of the other concerns I raised fall under.)

So, what you're essentially saying is that you want the "combat" to be the same exact thing it's been for the pat 20 odd years, sans LoS. And yes, even with games like SotN and AoS, the combat was basically the same as Cv1, you just had more weapons to choose from (no real combos, just single attacks).

On a rudimentary level, it's the same as CV1's, but only in the same way LoS' combat is like DMC's or GoW's, which is at such a basic level that it can't be easily altered no matter how much innovation is introduced without altering the game's genre--and even then you run out of suitable genres eventually. In the nuance is where the differences lie, just as LoS has nuances that separate it from GoW, or DMC. Some of the Metroidvanias introduced additional hitboxes for their weapons and multiple weapon types to break up the standard way of attacking. Some of the games allowed for special attacks unique to weapons like DoS that would eat up some MP but do a more powerful attack which is like a "weak" vs "strong" attack mechanic. It's also not quite accurate that combos don't exist in Metroidvanias. Some weapons in some Metroidvanias can be comboed with the dual hand mechanic, although it doesn't necessarily do much to stun enemies so you can wail on them for longer, it's more just for higher DPS. OoE did this extensively if you didn't notice, especially if you were trying to play at optimal levels. Perhaps you don't consider those combos though, but I don't know what else to call them.

Also, you'd have to knock more out of that list than LoS--you'd need to knock out basically all the 3D games, especially LoI and CoD which also use 3D action game mechanics for their combat. Essentially, I'm advocating 2D platformer combat for 2D-based gameplay, as opposed to 2D beat em up combat for 2D-based gameplay, which I fear they may be headed for. It's possible they could be taking that type of concern into account and are making most enemies die in a couple hits anyway in line with 2D platformer conventions, but then the need for combos in the combat system is reduced. I suppose it's possible for combos to still be there despite that as added complexity and for bosses, but generally I wouldn't expect this would be the way they'd go design-wise since usually game mechanics are there for a reason.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Iga game, and what came before, but I'm glad to see more of an action game style in Cv. Makes the fights more interesting.

You see, for me, it's just the opposite, since it will likely lead down the route of the game being more like a 2.5D beat em up, as I mentioned before. Beat em ups of course have also been done to death, if not in CV, and I don't typically find that type of combat interesting.

[DarkPrinceAlucard]

Are you guys not using the dark gauntlet attacks or something? Air launchers? Shadow magic abilities? Subweapon weaknesses? I never found it taking too long to dispatch enemies.

Yea those where used, but the thing is, my and others definition of a battle being to "long" or "repetitive" may be different than yours.

to some the battles are not long or repetitive at all.

to others they are.

No use debating it really, all a matter of opinion.

[meanguyjones]

Yea those where used, but the thing is, my and others definition of a battle being to "long" or "repetitive" may be different than yours.

to some the battles are not long or repetitive at all.

to others they are.

No use debating it really, all a matter of opinion.

Yeah, I understand. But other than the skeleton warriors, what other monsters in the game took a long time to kill? They all get blown up by subweapons/punches to the face. Just curious.

[Ahasverus]

Ok guys, I'm counting on you! I'm not staying awake soo I hope you make awesome posts 

And BTW, I gotta confess, I spammed my way in LoS in Tak Fuji way
"XXX YYY" - Tak Fujii sells Ninety-Nine Nights II at E3 2010

[Dremn]

1 hour to go.

If you guys need something to pass the time, go talk to Tak Fuji on his twitter right now. Dude is hilarious.

[cecil-kain]

Are you guys not using the dark gauntlet attacks or something? Air launchers? Shadow magic abilities? Subweapon weaknesses? I never found it taking too long to dispatch enemies.

There's a legitimate balancing problem when the player becomes dependent on combo-chain strategies to dispose of (what should be) common cannon-fodder.  Moreover, LoS' heavy-handed combat was quite divorced from its platforming elements --and that's not likely to go over well in 2-D.  Hopefully the experience is a bit more balanced and straight-forward this next time around.

[Ring_of_Varda]

has a trailer for this one been shown yet? im having problems with the stream and now with the pre e-3 vid.

[Thomas Belmont]

More info on June 5th! Can't wait!

[BingleGod]

And yes, even with games like SotN and AoS, the combat was basically the same as Cv1, you just had more weapons to choose from (no real combos, just single attacks).

Wow. What a reductive and incorrect statement.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

Castlevania: Lords of Shadow -- Mirror of Fate teaser trailer

[e105beta]

Wow. What a reductive and incorrect statement.

Not really. Each weapon you could equip had a different effect, but aside from the occasional "release" style attack, it was just *whackwhackwhackwhackwhack*

[thernz]

There was a lot more timing and commitment involved in CV1. Attacks were faster, you were able to backdash to cancel the attack, and etc. in AoS and SoTN so a lot of CV1's distinctive combat elements were absent. Gotta be nitpicky about these things.