Topic: "The Dragon Returns" - Castlevania Lords of Shadow Sequel (HERE BE SPOILER INFO)

[Foffy]

Perhaps Dracul is being used not to simply reference 'dragon', but Vlad Tepes. Perhaps as his transformation continues, perhaps he becomes what we knew in the old canon as Vlad Tepes Dracula. And even then, there's still a connection with Dracul and another Vlad..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlad_II_Dracul

[Dremn]

Maybe he's not fully Dracula yet until this game. He could still be in the process of becoming Dracula in MoF, either way, dude needs to hurry up and Dracula already. If he isn't.

...god that's sort of confusing.

[crisis]

Well Foofy, perhaps you are on to something.. perhaps we'll see some concrete info tomorrow, or perhaps the 31st



Family Guy - Perhaps

[RichterB]

All this news is incredible, but I do want say this; I want the sells to be equivalent to the heavy hitters like God of war, bayonetta, and all devil may cry.

Do any of you think that Castlevania has what it takes to reach those sale numbers?

I say this because with all this information it seems that konami is really taking an intrest and investment into cv right now. I just want this to happen way more often and most of all for this venture to succeed. I think I said something like this before on other topics, but the sales really need to increase or at least complement the effort given into these games.

And this is exactly why it's unwise for Castlevania to pattern itself after the popularity of Bayonetta, God of War, Devil May Cry, Uncharted, Shadow of the Colossus, etc. As it is, by and large, it's going to be called a copy-cat or inferior clone. At best, people say, "well, I like that I have another game to play similar to God of War."* But then, that makes it almost exactly the same as something like Dante's Inferno. It's not going to equal or top in sales the series it's emulating if it focuses so much on emulation. Castlevania deserves better and can be better. But it takes guts and imagination to go on a road less traveled. I don't expect LoS to reinvent itself. As it is, it hasn't even taken as many risks as the N64 era to capture Castlevania dynamically and distinctively in 3D. Honestly, LoS has only moved the bar a sliver from where it was with LoI and CoD, and that'd be more apparent if it was running on PS2 instead of PS3, IMO. It's not aiming to knock it out of the park like the N64 titles tried; LoS has been looking to hit in-the-park home runs at best.

I hope for the best, as I really cherish this franchise, and it's cool to see new stuff with promise, but I'm not holding my breath. CoD and LoS were big buzz-kills.

*On the other hand, Castlevania fans say, "well, at least the Castlevania name is on it and it has some shout-outs to a series I historically loved."

...I don't like how they play both sides. It should be: let's make a Castlevania game so incredible it makes the contemporary competition want to copy US!

I expect this game to have mutiple locales, just like LoS did. However if the castle is like the artwork, which is similar to the castle in LoS, I'll be disappointed. I loved the SCALE of the castle, but the way it was laid out, with huge sections all connected by those big chains, it just reminded me too much of Drac's castle in the Van Helsing movie. They were way too similar.

Yeah, there's something about it that not "quite" full-on Castlevania. It's not awful, but it does seem like elements of Van Helsing and Underworld have skewed MS' view of CV...to say nothing of Lord of the Rings. Something's slightly off...

[Neobelmont]

And this is exactly why it's unwise for Castlevania to pattern itself after the popularity of Bayonetta, God of War, Devil May Cry, Uncharted, Shadow of the Colossus, etc. As it is, by and large, it's going to be called a copy-cat or inferior clone. At best, people say, "well, I like that I have another game to play similar to God of War."* But then, that makes it almost exactly the same as something like Dante's Inferno. Castlevania deserves better and can be better. But it takes guts and imagination to go on a road less traveled. I don't expect LoS to reinvent itself. As it is, it hasn't even taken as many risks as the N64 era to capture Castlevania dynamically and distinctively in 3D. Honestly, LoS has only moved the bar a sliver from where it was with LoI and CoD, and that'd be more apparent if it was running on PS2 instead of PS3, IMO. It's not aiming to knock it out of the park like the N64 titles tried; LoS has been looking to hit in-the-park home runs at best.

I hope for the best, as I really cherish this franchise, and it's cool to see new stuff with promise, but I'm not holding my breath. CoD and LoS were big buzz-kills.

*On the other hand, Castlevania fans say, "well, at least the Castlevania name is on it and it has some shout-outs to a series I historically loved."

...I don't like how they play both sides. It should be: let's make a Castlevania game so incredible it makes the contemporary competition want to copy US!

Yeah, there's something about it that not "quite" full-on Castlevania. It's not awful, but it does seem like elements of Van Helsing and Underworld have skewed MS' view of CV...to say nothing of Lord of the Rings. Something's slightly off...

Yes be a trend setter, but how can castlevania do this when most of it mechanics are being used by the same franchies we are talking about. If it's fast combat it's a copy of dmc, oh a flaming chain whip it must be a copy of god of war the blades of Athena or something like that, and if we were to have the stopwatch it would be a copy of witch time in bayonetta, what is next simon wares his red outfit from simons quest and it's a rip off of war from darksiders. Anything that castlevania does seem to be a rip off of other, when it sure as hell it's not . If there was a castlevania appreciation movie or something I would want every creator from dmc,gow, and any other action game to have the balls to admit how castlevania affected their game design in one way or an other. I personally feel that cv will never ever get the respect(or sales) it deserves           That is why I think this really needs to hit home if not they this may be it.   

[RichterB]

Yes be a trend setter, but how can castlevania do this when most of it mechanics are being used by the same franchies we are talking about. If it's fast combat it's a copy of dmc, oh a flaming chain whip it must be a copy of god of war the blades of Athena or something like that, and if we were to have the stopwatch it would be a copy of witch time in bayonetta, what is next simon wares his red outfit from simons quest and it's a rip off of war from darksiders. Anything that castlevania does seem to be a rip off of other, when it sure as hell it's not . If there was a castlevania appreciation movie or something I would want every creator from dmc,gow, and any other action game to have the balls to admit how castlevania affected their game design in one way or an other. I personally feel that cv will never ever get the respect(or sales) it deserves           That is why I think this really needs to hit home if not they this may be it.   

It may be it, sadly. They're giving it a lot of effort, but I'm not sure whether that effort is misguided or not yet. LoS was a real opportunity, but it became more of a "sure, I can fit in the crowds." Cox said during one of his interviews that he always saw God of War as what Castlevania should be like in 3D. While it's true that all the previous series you mentioned have been affected by Castlevania, that doesn't mean Castlevania has to be them in the 3D realm. To do otherwise would be risky, but nothing ventured, nothing gained. The N64 titles showed there is at least one valid way to translate 2D Castlevania into 3D that flies in the face of the superman-combo-centric flings that define modern action games. You have to reinvent "modern action," by slowing it down, IMO. I'm not saying completely ape the N64 era, but use it as the base: full 3D-camera; dynamic/consequential level design that doesn't rely on movie events or QTE; a combat system based more on user-developed strategies than a series of mix-and-match mathematical combos; tight jumping controls that allow for spur-of-the-moment platforming, a balance of combat and puzzles that play off one another.

Cinema-focused, combo-dominated games have over-saturated the market. They're too hand's off, IMO. We have to realize that it's a "game" first and foremost. It makes so much sense for Castlevania to be a franchise that reminds the gaming scene that.

[Maedhros]

And this is exactly why it's unwise for Castlevania to pattern itself after the popularity of Bayonetta, God of War, Devil May Cry, Uncharted, Shadow of the Colossus, etc. As it is, by and large, it's going to be called a copy-cat or inferior clone. At best, people say, "well, I like that I have another game to play similar to God of War."* But then, that makes it almost exactly the same as something like Dante's Inferno. It's not going to equal or top in sales the series it's emulating if it focuses so much on emulation. Castlevania deserves better and can be better. But it takes guts and imagination to go on a road less traveled. I don't expect LoS to reinvent itself. As it is, it hasn't even taken as many risks as the N64 era to capture Castlevania dynamically and distinctively in 3D. Honestly, LoS has only moved the bar a sliver from where it was with LoI and CoD, and that'd be more apparent if it was running on PS2 instead of PS3, IMO. It's not aiming to knock it out of the park like the N64 titles tried; LoS has been looking to hit in-the-park home runs at best.

I hope for the best, as I really cherish this franchise, and it's cool to see new stuff with promise, but I'm not holding my breath. CoD and LoS were big buzz-kills.

*On the other hand, Castlevania fans say, "well, at least the Castlevania name is on it and it has some shout-outs to a series I historically loved."

...I don't like how they play both sides. It should be: let's make a Castlevania game so incredible it makes the contemporary competition want to copy US!

Yeah, there's something about it that not "quite" full-on Castlevania. It's not awful, but it does seem like elements of Van Helsing and Underworld have skewed MS' view of CV...to say nothing of Lord of the Rings. Something's slightly off...

The two things they did right in LoS were: Visuals and Combat. And even these two have some things that can be made even better.
For visuals, try to inspire themselves in older games. Yeah, try to make monsters more like the ones in the older games. Add more to the bestiary, a lot more.

For combat, it's fast and good. Actually, for being a copy of God of War, I think it's even better than GoW. What I hate in both games is how the extra moves are... pointless... in higher difficults. The monsters always get you if you do a combo bigger than 3 attacks without dodging. And the extra moves get pointless because the monsters resists them. Make some of the monsters weak to an specific  type of attack. That would make the moves better.

[cecil-kain]

And this is exactly why it's unwise for Castlevania to pattern itself after the popularity of Bayonetta, God of War, Devil May Cry, Uncharted, Shadow of the Colossus, etc. As it is, by and large, it's going to be called a copy-cat or inferior clone. At best, people say, "well, I like that I have another game to play similar to God of War."* But then, that makes it almost exactly the same as something like Dante's Inferno. It's not going to equal or top in sales the series it's emulating if it focuses so much on emulation. Castlevania deserves better and can be better. But it takes guts and imagination to go on a road less traveled. I don't expect LoS to reinvent itself. As it is, it hasn't even taken as many risks as the N64 era to capture Castlevania dynamically and distinctively in 3D. Honestly, LoS has only moved the bar a sliver from where it was with LoI and CoD, and that'd be more apparent if it was running on PS2 instead of PS3, IMO. It's not aiming to knock it out of the park like the N64 titles tried; LoS has been looking to hit in-the-park home runs at best.

I hope for the best, as I really cherish this franchise, and it's cool to see new stuff with promise, but I'm not holding my breath. CoD and LoS were big buzz-kills.

*On the other hand, Castlevania fans say, "well, at least the Castlevania name is on it and it has some shout-outs to a series I historically loved."

...I don't like how they play both sides. It should be: let's make a Castlevania game so incredible it makes the contemporary competition want to copy US!

Yeah, there's something about it that not "quite" full-on Castlevania. It's not awful, but it does seem like elements of Van Helsing and Underworld have skewed MS' view of CV...to say nothing of Lord of the Rings. Something's slightly off...

Brilliant analysis my friend.  I couldn't have sit it better myself.  :-)

Yes be a trend setter, but how can castlevania do this when most of it mechanics are being used by the same franchies we are talking about. If it's fast combat it's a copy of dmc, oh a flaming chain whip it must be a copy of god of war the blades of Athena or something like that, and if we were to have the stopwatch it would be a copy of witch time in bayonetta, what is next simon wares his red outfit from simons quest and it's a rip off of war from darksiders. Anything that castlevania does seem to be a rip off of other, when it sure as hell it's not . If there was a castlevania appreciation movie or something I would want every creator from dmc,gow, and any other action game to have the balls to admit how castlevania affected their game design in one way or an other. I personally feel that cv will never ever get the respect(or sales) it deserves           That is why I think this really needs to hit home if not they this may be it.   

QTEs were a big "me-too" element that didn't need to be there.  It's a good example of how the LoS' heavy-handed narrative was a higher priority than real gameplay.  I swear half the game industry needs to quit and just start making movies...

[RichterB]

For combat, it's fast and good. Actually, for being a copy of God of War, I think it's even better than GoW. What I hate in both games is how the extra moves are... pointless... in higher difficults. The monsters always get you if you do a combo bigger than 3 attacks without dodging. And the extra moves get pointless because the monsters resists them. Make some of the monsters weak to an specific  type of attack. That would make the moves better.

Here's the thing about combos--they don't engender platforming (IE: levels with vertical and horizontal depth). They bog you down into arenas too often, and the animation of the combos interferes with standing on, and jumping to and from, narrow ledges. It also reduces the usefulness of sub-weapons.

One way Castlevania 3D can stand out is by going against the grain. You need a basic whip attack, and a defensive whip swirl over your head to hit enemies approaching from different angles in a 3D realm. LoS has something similar to that at its very base, but as soon as you combine things, you get into super-powers. If you want to get fancy, have a "charge whip," where you hold the button and then release it for more damage by cracking the whip. Or, the close-range secondary weapon, like CV64 had, is neat for dealing with enemies that get too close. Whip's have recoil after all, and a whip hit on something 1 foot in front of you won't work in real life. Ultimately, the action is a tool to move forward in Castlevania and counter enemy placement during platforming, not to wail on waves of 100,000-hit point baddies in a flat arena like Smash TV. I'd rather make up my own combos than have pre-set animations dictating them and hindering platforming and overall game design.

Brilliant analysis my friend.  I couldn't have sit it better myself.  :-)

QTEs were a big "me-too" element that didn't need to be there.  It's a good example of how the LoS' heavy-handed narrative was a higher priority than real gameplay.  I swear half the game industry needs to quit and just start making movies...

Thank you. Your last point should be doubly noted. I think the narrative has really taken a hold on this LoS franchise so far. (And the saddest thing is, it's not very compelling). It's It's like MS/Cox thought that was what most needed fixing in Castlevania. And as I likewise noted in one of the posts in-between these, games have too often forgotten to be "games."

[Vrakanox]

If they can somehow alter the gameplay or add a new character to not make it so similar to God of War, I think that would help things. It's okay as an action game but it definitely has too much of a "me too" feel.

[Maedhros]

Here's the thing about combos--they don't engender platforming (IE: levels with vertical and horizontal depth). They bog you down into arenas too often, and the animation of the combos interferes with standing on, and jumping to and from, narrow ledges. It also reduces the usefulness of sub-weapons.

One way Castlevania 3D can stand out is by going against the grain. You need a basic whip attack, and a whip swirl over your head to hit enemies approaching from different angles in a 3D realm. LoS has something similar to that at its very base, but as soon as you combine things, you get into super-powers. If you want to get fancy, have a "charge whip," where you hold the button and then release it for more damage by cracking the whip. Or, the close-range secondary weapon, like CV64 had, is neat for dealing with enemies that get too close. Whip's have recoil after all, and a whip hit on something 1 foot in front of you won't work in real life. Ultimately, the action is a tool to move forward in Castlevania and counter enemy placement during platforming, not to wail on waves of 100,000-hit point baddies in a flat arena like Smash TV. I'd rather make up my own combos than have pre-set animations dictating them and hindering platforming and overall game design.

Them the game get's too boring. Just having a basic whipping in 3D doesn't work, at all.

[Thomas Belmont]

What I don't like, combat wise, is that it takes like 5 minutes to kill even the weakest of enemies.

[RichterB]

Them the game get's too boring. Just having a basic whipping in 3D doesn't work, at all.

Totally but respectfully have to disagree. Castlevania is not about being Ninja Belmont with a gazillion superpowers and martial-arts acrobatics. The action is meant to work in concert with level design. As LoS is, the combat dominates the level design, and you get what's really boring: redundant smack-downs. I put down an alternative that's more than just one whip button, but not overzealous, either. It would also allow for more dynamic platforming that could work with the combat.

What I don't like, combat wise, is that it takes like 5 minutes to kill even the weakest of enemies.

Exactly. And this is a product of an obsession with combos. When you have such combos, it doesn't make sense to have one or two-hit kill enemies. It's why that stuff needs to be pared down immensely.

[Neobelmont]

What I don't like, combat wise, is that it takes like 5 minutes to kill even the weakest of enemies.

I think the enemies that were what the hell for me were the vampires,big werewolfs, and the skeletons do not get me started on the skeletons.

[Kingshango]

The only monsters I had problems with were the skeletons, the giant spiders and the creeping coffens. Everyone else weren't too bad to take down but I do agree that some enemies had too much health.