Topic: "The Dragon Returns" - Castlevania Lords of Shadow Sequel (HERE BE SPOILER INFO)

[Nagumo]

Another random thought of mine: I'm calling it that the big twist in LoS2 is going to be that the Toy Maker is actually Gandolfi. It makes sense when you think about, since they keep bringing up Gandolfi in the knight scrolls without actually showing him. I'm hoping it's true just for the sheer hilarity of the exact same twist being pulled three games in a row.

[crisis]

I've thought of the same possibility, Nagumo... perhaps we can discuss it over lunch sometime? : )

[EstebanT]

...regarding the "glue" that holds the series together, that's obviously the castle itself and the fact that it's gothic horror.

That isn't really true... is it?

For example, the music doesn't particularly support a gothic-horror game most of the time regardless of quality, and the atmosphere of gothic-horror is completely abscent in the Land of the Lycans

Yeah, I agree... But Castlevania areas arent always gothic horror... it would get old fast. I can think of many areas that aren't gothic horror in older castlevanias.

[theplottwist]

That isn't really true... is it?
Yeah, I agree... But Castlevania areas arent always gothic horror... it would get old fast. I can think of many areas that aren't gothic horror in older castlevanias.

Well, a game called "Castlevania" that doesn't feature the demon fortress known as "Castlevania" sounds like a "Super Mario Bros." game with zero Mario in it. Preposterous :/ I think this might be my biggest gripe with the first Lords of Shadow, even though Vampire Castle is supposed to be a "Castlevania".

Now for the gothic horror, even though many areas of the games don't present a gothic theme, the series is clearly inspired by the gothic.

The biggest problem of the Lords of Shadow is it's feel. No Gothic, Yes epic.
Epic is cool, but it isn't really Castlevania. Feels... Too different in a not-so-good way.

[theplottwist]

Another random thought of mine: I'm calling it that the big twist in LoS2 is going to be that the Toy Maker is actually Gandolfi. It makes sense when you think about, since they keep bringing up Gandolfi in the knight scrolls without actually showing him. I'm hoping it's true just for the sheer hilarity of the exact same twist being pulled three games in a row.

Well, he IS mentioned to have been Gandolfi's apprendice, is it not?

[e105beta]

SotN's 2D sprites fit the repetitive sounds well. Also, for that era it is hard to put in lots of musical elements when the disc capacity is limited and you have to share it with coding, graphics, etc.
So yeah, some sounds might sound like those of another game. I am not an expert on game bgm but there might have been some copying involved.

I wasn't trying to say anything was copied, just that any true consistency established by Castlevania music has to due with endless remixes. There's nothing gothic about a rock remix of Vampire Killer, whereas a song like Dance of Pales establishes a very elegant, gothic waltz.

Just to be clear, I was not critiqueing Lords in my previous post. And I actually think changing the names would have been inrelevant, since they're just labels.

I was more responding to Crisis, but I appreciate your response.

e105beta, I don't feel like debating this for very long, but I see your point about non-gradual change. However, I think it's also fair to say Lords sometimes stepped out the "parameters" established by the series. For example, the music doesn't particularly support a gothic-horror game most of the time regardless of quality, and the atmosphere of gothic-horror is completely abscent in the Land of the Lycans, while the Land of the Dead may conceive a sense of horror, but not particularly gothic (except Baba Yaga's domain, which is great). Last not but not least, the point I made earlier about the game's structure not being focused on a castle. I would like to emphasise these are completely fair points to make.

I'm not disagreeing, because what you're saying is absolutely true, I'm more just pointing out that a lot of said "parameters" came into existence gradually, rather than being part of the series since it's inception. There are a ton of Castlevania music tracks, particularly the further back you go, that have nothing gothic-horror about them, and there are examples of non-Castle LoS-like environments in other games. Just a couple of examples:

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I'm not trying to say that a good part of Agharta didn't have an unfamiliar feel, but I think it's unfair to say that Land of Lycans is completely absent of Castlevania feel. There is basis for a good part of it, even if it's not necessarily in the parameters that became the standard.

EDIT: Land of the Dead, well, like you said, it's not particularly gothic, but neither was the Abyss or the Pyramid Ruins

However, my conclusion is that both views can be true at the same time. I'm sure there are people bone-headed enough to fixate on very trivial details like soley on Kojima art, or like I mentioned before, on specific story details. It's as they say: the truth is in the middle somewhere.

I actually don't think Kojima art being in the game IS trivial, at least in terms of discussing visual identity. Kojima was with the series a long time, and had a major impact on the art-style and direction. Taking her away, along with the primary composer for a long time, within the course of two games, causes major "culture shock" if you will. I just think it's important to separate the "Castlevania" from the "Kojima-inspired Castlevania" if that makes any sense.

[Asgardwolf]

Well, he IS mentioned to have been Gandolfi's apprendice, is it not?

Yes, you can read it on one of the knight scrolls in MOF... He was Gandolfi`s Best apprentice until he was cursed and turned evil by the Bernhard family.

[crisis]

But alas, the theory of Toy Maker being Gandolfi also contradicts one of the knight scrolls found in LoS1. If you recall, it said that Gandolfi was seen living in seclusion in the swamp, in the guise of a senile old man in rags. The Toy Maker looks the exact opposite of this description, and he clearly resides in the castle.


HMMM....

[Nagumo]

About the music, when you take them seperately from the games, you might not immediately associate with gothic-horror. However, I think that music is more agreable with the rest of the assets used when compored to Araujo's. You could say that's a matter of opinion, but certain sounds are known to invoke certain emotions in the listeners. Not saying Castlevania tracks invoke a sense of outright fear or anxiety, but I think they put one better into the right state of mind, a "pleasing terror", if that makes sense.   

But alas, the theory of Toy Maker being Gandolfi also contradicts one of the knight scrolls found in LoS1. If you recall, it said that Gandolfi was seen living in seclusion in the swamp, in the guise of a senile old man in rags. The Toy Maker looks the exact opposite of this description, and he clearly resides in the castle.


HMMM....

The apprentince thing and Gandolfi living as a senile old man are all red herrings, I'm telling you. The location where the knight saw Gandolfi is awfully close to the castle, don't you think? Some food for thought. 

That isn't really true... is it?

Not unless my copies of the games are different.   

[Ahasverus]

Plot twist: Gandolfi is Pan

[EstebanT]

Plot twist: Marie is a chupacabra

[KaZudra]

Plot twist: Chupacabra is future Gabe trying to stop himself

[EstebanT]

Plot twist: Victor is blind in one eye because he is actually the Daemon lord and he is mad at gabriel for blinding him.

[Chernabogue]

Plot twist: Zobek's true identity is IGA.

[Flame]

Plot twist: Zobek's true identity is IGA.

I thought he was the Forgotten one?