Topic: "The Dragon Returns" - Castlevania Lords of Shadow Sequel (HERE BE SPOILER INFO)

[Dremn]

ive been reading a lot of newfound praise for los1 lately

not even 2 years ago people were shitting on it left & right, and when i read stuff how los2 is seemingly worse than los1 that just baffles me

I don't get it either, LoS1 didn't magically get better after all these years. A lot of people are being kinda flip floppy about it.

[Trevorcard]

I don't get it either, LoS1 didn't magically get better after all these years. A lot of people are being kinda flip floppy about it.

I would disagree. Some of us loved Lords of Shadow 1 and for me as castlevania fan whose excitement dissipated at time of Sorrow games, Lords of Shadow 1 brought me back to the franchise.  It is shame it was disappointing.

[e105beta]

ive been reading a lot of newfound praise for los1 lately

not even 2 years ago people were shitting on it left & right, and when i read stuff how los2 is seemingly worse than los1 that just baffles me

I thought the same thing, but when you actually go back and look at it, you realize it was people HERE were shitting on it left & right. A lot of people genuinely liked it.

Just look at the metacritic.

[beingthehero]

I thought the consensus here was that metacritic and reviews don't matter because reviewers are dumb and biased and only paid to give good scores.

[Kingshango]

I don't get it either, LoS1 didn't magically get better after all these years. A lot of people are being kinda flip floppy about it.

There's a term for this but since I can't think of the proper name, but the phenomenon is synonymous with the 3D Zelda games where the follow up game is disappointing and the previous game(s) are looked at a bit more fondly.

This is also synonymous with 3D Castlevania's as well.

[Trevorcard]

Kingshango: I never got your opinion on Lords of Shadow 2. Did you think it was better or worse than Lords of Shadow 1?

[Kingshango]

Kingshango: I never got your opinion on Lords of Shadow 2. Did you think it was better or worse than Lords of Shadow 1?

Have not played the game myself yet but from what I've seen of the game, some aspects look great (the castle, the combat, the bosses, the somewhat non linear world) and some aspect are.......not so great (the generic interiors of the modern setting, the stealth, the plot, oh dear God the PLOT). It's a solid 7/10 until I get my hands on it, then I'll make a more detailed review.

[e105beta]

Have not played the game myself yet but from what I've seen of the game, some aspects look great (the castle, the combat, the bosses, the somewhat non linear world) and some aspect are.......not so great (the generic interiors of the modern setting, the stealth, the plot, oh dear God the PLOT). It's a solid 7/10 until I get my hands on it, then I'll make a more detailed review.

My friends and I have already started using the phrase "Well, at least it's not as bad as Victor" when describing awful writing and characterization.

Goddammit MercurySteam.

[bigbossbalorg]

I thought Dracul was a really good character.

[DragonSlayr81]

Don't see many of the American scores. Here's one from a non-gaming site, Bloody-Disgusting(one of my favorite horror movie sites):

Score: 6.5/10

http://bloody-disgusting.com/news/3281129/castlevania-lords-of-shadow-2-review/

[Dracul_Belmont]

I'm sure that there will be a LOS3.

(click to show/hide)

How the hell does someone who has been desiring death for over 900 years suddenly accepts being ''alive''?. Besides, he didn't kill his inner Dracula and it said that it will be with him always. The mirror showed him something. My only guess is that in the next game Gabriel will separate from Dracula and they will battle. He already has the VK. Gabriel will use it. There could be games in between. As I understand it, Dracula went to take his nap 500 years prior, so he was around at least 400 years between he was defeated by Simon and Alucard. He said to Victor ''I'm immortal, something you Belmonts don't seem to understand'' He has crossed paths with other Belmonts

[Eärendil]

After finishing the game, I took a few days to simmer down just so my little review wouldn't come off as a rant. Unfortunately, this is going to sound like a rant anyway...

The game begins with a lot of excitement. Even the story starts off well and stays fairly engaging with good content up until the plot gets lazy and disappointing near the end. The classic castle in design, game play experience and atmosphere, all work very well. The classic castlevania aspect of the game is very beautiful and I have very little problem with any of it. The boss fights and combats are amazing. The overall controls are clearly improved upon over LOS1 and the freedom of camera angle is also a solid improvement. The added feel of exploration is decent, though I think that could have been better still. My initial thoughts overall of the game were very positive early on. You may even remember that I made a favorable post earlier in this thread after I had a few hours of play...

Unfortunately, though, as the game progresses, some very glaring and embarrassing problems just plain out ruin the overall experience. Lords of Shadow 2 will be remembered by me as a game with so much wasted potential. I'm kind of pissed off at Konami more than I am Mercury Steam. It's bloody goddamned inexcusable not to catch the colossal failures in development of the modern design and layout of the city. The blandness, lifelessness and otherwise underdeveloped look of the city structures and garages as opposed to the beautiful Gothic Castlevania backdrop completely breaks immersion. The poor scaling, puzzling wall placements and textures are so bad it looks almost intentional or a joke. Likewise, the creatures in the city are repeatedly generic and predictable. These problems make the recent story about the struggles within MS seem very believable. It looks like the modern elements were developed after or possibly started around the time that the original art director left. Because the classic castle design is a complete 180 from the modern city design. Konami should have scoffed at this when they did their own tests and sent this rather unfinished product right back to Mercury Steam and told them, "Hell no, this is unacceptable. Clean this up. Hire a new art director. Or we'll take over with the license and finish it elsewhere." It's embarrassingly bad. You can't avoid not noticing through half of the game. Unfortunately, the plot doesn't help to ease the significance of the design flaws either. Like many of you, I'd been a fan of the franchise since a child in the late 80s. But I actually enjoyed the fresh new take on Castlevania with the story of Gabriel Belmont/Dracula and the Lords of Shadow. My hopes were that Mercury Steam would progress upon that story, not turn it into a steaming pile. That is the result of 8 years of development? Here's to hoping they salvage it with a conclusion in the DLC, if there is going to be such, and put this facepalm of a plot to bed. To be clear, I do not blame Dave Cox. I think he did the best he could in the face of less than favorable circumstances. I think he is otherwise a respectable person. But he has got to be happy his involvement is over.

Edit: I'm going to add a few more thoughts and let this go for now. I already see talk of a LOS3. I find that disappointing. I think Konami should just do a whole new reboot altogether. I can't see a new studio wanting to carry on with any kind of attached canon to the Lords of Shadow storyline now. I hope Konomi will give a decisive conclusion to this saga in the rumored "Revelations" DLC for LOS2. But as far as a whole new game, I really hope now that Konami makes a new 3d game in the vein of the classic vanias, or if you like, even a 2D/2.5D game. Maybe even visit or revisit some historical Vlad Dracula and Bram Storker Dracula together for the next Prince of Darkness. Perhaps they revisit the metroidvanias or even a whole new route from anything that has been previously done; whatever... just put the Lords of Shadow concept to bed!

[Darkson]

Mind elaborating on what makes the plot faceplaming? I'll admit that is isn't great, but it's still pretty good.

[e105beta]

Mind elaborating on what makes the plot faceplaming? I'll admit that is isn't great, but it's still pretty good.

As one of this game's previous paladins, I'll give it a shot.

First, the idea that Dracula is weak and needs to gain strength is never fully realized because the game never gives you any real idea of when he's "powerful" beyond him no longer being a decrepit old man. At his peak, Dracula is supposed to be a being so powerful neither Satan nor Death dare challenge him, that it takes 500+ years for his enemies to get the confidence to re-invade the world. We never see this in the game, part for gameplay reasons and part for story reasons. For example, stealth. It makes sense at the beginning, but eventually it should go away. I think the first moment it truly becomes unacceptable is the Agreus fight, since you fight him right afterwards. There was no need for sneaking. It's pure gameplay reasoning getting in the way of plot. By the time he's put down Raisa Volkova, he should be able to bust Golgoth Guards like nobody's business. He's more powerful than a child of Satan, nobody but Satan or his other children should really be able to mess with him. And why is he sneaking into Nergal's headquarters? Why doesn't he just bring down the building? He logically has the power to do it, but no, he sneaks there and Nergal makes him his bitch with some lightning. Then, with no real upgrades after that, Dracula rips Zobek and new one and kills Satan. The game, story-wise, does a horrible job of making the player feel powerful outside of the actual boss fights. It's incredibly inconsistent.

Second, the castle cutscenes, while probably the best plot moments, never reach their conclusion. Marie gives him the most compelling speech in the game, about how he needs to free himself from the castle, become who she really knows he his, and choose his family, but it never happens. Dracula agrees with it, but it never really happens. To free himself from the castle, he needs to shed his dark side, since the castle is essentially a manifestation of his power, but this doesn't happen. Defeating Inner Dracula would show his dominance over his dark blood and his decision to move towards the light, but it doesn't happen. He fights Inner Dracula, but doesn't even get to strike the finishing blow. The blood just flows away saying "You can never get rid of me!", and it's right! As long as Gabriel is Dracula, he will never be able to live in peace. He will forever be stuck in the "castle" of his mind. He needs to die. He needs to find redemption in death. He wants to be with his wife. He does not want eternity, and Alucard doesn't either. Neither of them ever wanted to be a vampire, and while it makes sense that they could put aside their grudge to defeat Satan and Zobek, the idea that they just walk off into the distance as father and son is lame. You can claim that Dracula and Alucard's outlook on life just changed when they realized they had each other, but that's pretty weak and not really one of the primary themes of the story, and hence the claim of bad plot.

Third, Victor. His fight was awesome, but with what they did to him, he shouldn't have even been included. His shift from a hero of the Brotherhood and champion of humanity to buddy buddy with Dracula, the vampire that ruled the land with an evil fist, destroyed his order, and is the corrupted origin of his bloodline happens far, far too quickly. He literally gets handed the antidote, along with his butt, then makes up his mind to sacrifice himself for him. Even if we were playing as anyone else, the shift from "I am your enemy" to "I will die for you!" is way too fast. It's not even a spur of the moment Matrix dive moment. He pre-meditates sacrificing himself so that Dracula can get an idea where the next acolyte is. He doesn't die defending Dracula from a badguy, he doesn't die trying to kill said badguy, he dies to become a glorified Dodo Relic. He completely ignores his responsibilities as commander of the Brotherhood. He also never gave that antidote to someone.

That. Is. Awful.

Fourth, a lot of the story is presented a very unique, psychological way. This would be fine if the game stuck to the series's themes of fate, vengeance, and redemption, but it doesn't so the story just comes off as a bunch of goofy head stuff and leaves a lot of loose ends. Why can the Vampire Killer kill Satan? It didn't kill him in LoS, so why does it work now? In fact, who says Satan is even dead? He didn't die last time, so why is he dead now? He was just sent back to hell. Same with Zobek. Zobek didn't die last time, so what makes him dead now? Nobody ever explains it. So if that's the case, then why did Dracula stage a 500+ year gambit for the sole purpose of killing Satan and Zobek if there is nothing in the game that tells us how this is actually going to finally kill them? The uncertainty of payoff to prep time ratio is untenable. And that's big stuff. There's little stuff too, like Dracula waking up, talking to Zobek, screaming, going back to sleep, then waking up again to remember his conversation with Zobek. The way it was presented is confusing. Or back to Victor, if Zobek can figure out that one of the acolytes is in the Biomek corporation, then why can't he conclude that the largest weapons dealer in the world that deals in weapons laced with dark magic might POSSIBLY have an acolyte in it? Victor needed to die for that? Bad writing. They also tossed aside some primary themes, such as God's influence in the matter and the workings of Fate, with no real conclusion other than Gabriel smashing the Mirror and resolving that fate had no hold over him. But that was never the problem! The problem was that God revived Gabriel to repent, and Gabriel said "Fuck you!"

Now this is more personal preference, but the perfect ending to this game would have been something along these lines: Gabriel is ready to use the Vampire Killer on himself, but Inner Dracula doesn't allow it. He takes over Gabriel which ensues in a fight against Victor who gets the Vampire Killer and uses it to fight Dracula. Then, the fight would then flit between that and a mirror'd fight with a dark manifestation of Inner Dracula. So while Dracula fights Victor in real life, Gabriel fights Dracula in his mind. Then, Gabriel beats Dracula, symbolizing the letting go of his hatred and grief, and Victor uses the opportunity to impale Dracula with the Vampire Killer. Big impressive moment with light and blood and screaming and then bam, Gabriel dies and finds himself in the arms of Marie or something like that. That kind of ending would have utilized the themes of the series so much better.

I love Castlevania. I love Classicvanias and Metroidvanias. I've played every game in the series minus the gameboy ones. I love Lords of Shadow. Mirror of Fate is one of my all time favorite games, as little sense as that makes. I even give LoS2 a 7.5/10 because of how fun it's combat and boss battles were, and how beautiful the castle sections were. But I cannot get over how badly LoS2 botched up a perfectly set up storyline. It's just...bad.

[GuyStarwind]

I like your idea for the ending. I'll admit I'm no LoS fan but I think the way you described how it should've ended would've been a good way to end the series.