Topic: "The Dragon Returns" - Castlevania Lords of Shadow Sequel (HERE BE SPOILER INFO)

[Flame]

I'd just like to pop in and say, since I JUST found it-

I love this track

Castlevania Lords of Shadow 2 OST: Second Acolyte (Exclusive Director's Cut Soundtrack)

One of my top 3,

along with

Carmilla's Spell (Atmospheric) - Castlevania: Lords of Shadow 2 OST

[Trevorcard]

So guys I got Castlevania lords of shadow art book and it's ok purchase apparently Simon marries Selena Belmont. Unfortunately no picture of Selena.

[Nagumo]

Selena, Senera's identical twin.

[zaxiou]

After giving some time and thought to the game, I think it was a good game in the end. Even at it's worsts with the rats, it was tolerable and when it was at it's best, it was the best thing I've experienced in some long time. From the music to the atmosphere. Then I read about Enric and the troubled development, and somehow that made me feel even more for the game. Even the ending was awesome

(click to show/hide)

Which is totally different than what we were shown and only exists in my head 

[JayDominus]

Yesterday I think I came up with an explanation why Satan was weaker than Nergal and got killed off so easily. It may be totally stupid but hear me out: Satan from the very minute he appeared in that chapel was screwed over by his pride, which is a deadly sin he's an incarnation of. "I don't need Guido, I can totally take on these two on my own" "Eh, they won't be able to do anything once I have the Leviathan", et cetera. He decided to possess Alucard and given that Alucard is pretty powerful and is second only to his father, that made a huge disservice to Satan because it took quite some power to have Alucard in control AND because of it he couldn't use all of his arsenal. But he went for it anyway because he thought that even despite all that he can still take on Drac. After the fight he was weakened and that's why he was slow enough for Dracula to catch him. As for why does the Combat Cross kill him - it was said that origins of the Cross are shrouded in mystery and it's possibly made out of nails used to crucify martyrs. Of one of those nails came from Jesus' cross, it would make it a powerful enough artifact. Now it involves a lot of far-fetching and assuming, but hey, it explains stuff.

[zaxiou]

Yesterday I think I came up with an explanation why Satan was weaker than Nergal and got killed off so easily. It may be totally stupid but hear me out: Satan from the very minute he appeared in that chapel was screwed over by his pride, which is a deadly sin he's an incarnation of. "I don't need Guido, I can totally take on these two on my own" "Eh, they won't be able to do anything once I have the Leviathan", et cetera. He decided to possess Alucard and given that Alucard is pretty powerful and is second only to his father, that made a huge disservice to Satan because it took quite some power to have Alucard in control AND because of it he couldn't use all of his arsenal. But he went for it anyway because he thought that even despite all that he can still take on Drac. After the fight he was weakened and that's why he was slow enough for Dracula to catch him. As for why does the Combat Cross kill him - it was said that origins of the Cross are shrouded in mystery and it's possibly made out of nails used to crucify martyrs. Of one of those nails came from Jesus' cross, it would make it a powerful enough artifact. Now it involves a lot of far-fetching and assuming, but hey, it explains stuff.

I think, in LoS universe Satan isn't really all that strong. His main plan was to use Leviathan to destroy Earth. He couldn't do it himself.
Plus, the narrative & gameplay don't overlap all that well as they're supposed to. The last time Gabriel goes back to the Castle to finally see the truth for him self, is when he probably got all his powers back. He's back to his old strength, when everyone feared him. Thus the Satan battle was pretty easy, and before that point he was still getting his powers back thus explaining why the Acolytes were a bit tougher compared to Satan. The power scaling is really weird, God > Golgoth Guard > Dracul > Alucard > Satan.

As for the combat cross, I think that part mostly implies that it is infact Gabriel killing off Satan and not Dracul. To explain that well, here's a theory. In Los1 Gabriel was the champion of the Brotherhood of light who still had the darkness present in him but dormant thanks to Marie. But after her death he didn't really have anything to keep it dormant. In a way he was really Gabriel v1 where he suspended half of himself, and after fighting so many monsters and defeating the Lords of Shadows his dormant side started to awaken. And lateron as he drank Laura's blood, it was kind of like him letting Laura have peace by taking her Darkness in him. Which is kind of what he did to The Forgotten One. And now with an Eternity of Blood awaiting him, as he said, without Marie or anyone else who would need the Good Gabriel side, he gave in to his darkness thus Dracul was born which is really Gabriel v2 but with the darkness as the dominant personality. That continued till the Trevor incident where after finding out that it was his own son he killed, the dormant Gabriel started to awaken a little bit. And now in Los2, the castle sections are really the good side trying to wake up in his mind, and the only two people who would need/resonate with the good Gabriel is his son and wife, thus we see Trevor and Marie in the Castle constantly while he battles his inner self. By the end of the game, the battle between Gabriel and Dracul is put to rest thanks to the only person who could do it, i.e Alucard who resonates to both the sides of Gabriel. It's a really grey area, not like a Jerkyl Hyde thing. And thus by the end, the persona who really kills off Satan is Gabriel v3 who has finally accepted both the sides of him.

Sorry for the Wall of text, I had to get this out. 

[JayDominus]

The "Full power after Inner Dracula" thing COULD work... had the Inner Dracula battle happen after the second Acolyte, not before.

[Terin]

Hi folks, I'm a longtime lurker...  (and some of my fangames are still linked on the CV Dungeon from 10+ years ago, whoa)

So far, I just got the Mist form and I'm really enjoying the game.  Despite the massive amounts of complaints and "generic" feeling of the city, it's a ton of fun.  That being said, I've been going around constantly in the castle and collecting all the power-ups and secrets.  I can definitely see it as a dialect of Symphony of the Night -- an attempt at making something like it, that resonates with it, to some degree.

Platforming has been a lot of fun -- clunky a bit now/then on the PS3 -- but I've had a lot of fun playing as Dracula and moving around.  This is clearly not the same Gabriel we saw in LoS1.  The combat, while fun (and I love getting mastery -- I already have the claws and whip mastered), kind of sucks.  The problem with the free camera is that I have an issue where enemies attack me from off-screen and even if I try to sync block, they've used an unblockable attack.  It's kind of interesting, actually, that LoS2 has a lot more unblockable attacks than LoS1.  It constantly feels like I'm being overwhelmed, even on the challenges, having 3 giant jailers all attack me at once, since one will be something I can sync block, and the next two will be unblockable with no time to escape between the two -- and it never gives me a chance to build focus, unless I want to try to hit them normally (but I can't because they have their armor on).  Overall, combat feels more broken than anything else in the game, so far.  It doesn't destroy the experience, though, but it eliminates a lot of the "freedom" I think we were supposed to feel.

At this point, I'm probably about halfway through the game, I would imagine, and still trying to figure out "what else" there is in store -- where else can it go and how else will Dracula be powered up?  I was thinking it would have been a lot more awesome to get "armor" and other power-ups throughout the game...  that would make it feel more SotN-ish.

I think a good way to sum it up is -- it's a very fun (but unbalanced and somewhat broken) Zelda-ish clone.  The atmosphere is very fun.

To combat a couple of criticisms, I've read the story mostly and I think there are a few interesting things that might be worth mentioning...

So, the supposed Vampire Killer has been reforged -- but if we go back to what Castlevania is called in Japan -- Akumajo Dracula -- Devil's Castle, Dracula -- I think that vampires (as strange as it may seem) are a subset of demon.  Killing Satan with the Vampire Killer kind of makes sense.  In LoS1, Gabriel never snapped his neck or anything like that, from what I can remember (just beat it again for the 100th time it feels like a week ago) -- I remember him holding him and forcing him back into the ground, while being taunted.  I believe Brauner and Olrox in this mythos are also supposedly DEMONIC in origin, according to the companion books.  Since when is a Vampire an upgrade from being a Demon?  I think they're kind of the same thing -- just maybe different classes, different allegiences.  Perhaps the Vampire Killer DID kill Satan, because it doesn't just kill vampires -- it REALLY kills demons, vampires of which are a subset.  I think it seems like there are a lot of mentions of Revelations (from Christianity) in it as well -- have you folks considered the symbolism -- the multi-headed serpent (Gorgon) followed by the Jezebel (Carmilla) and several mentions of the Beast and the Dragon?  The "final battle" between good and evil, supposedly.  Though, that might impose that Dracula is Jesus, which would be totally incorrect.

I was hoping we might get some more information about the Vampire Killer and Gabriel -- like maybe he was the incarnation of the angel Gabriel?  I think there's a lot of interesting connections between the Archangel and the Dragon, if you bother to read/study religious texts/Wikipedia.  But I think they kind of covered it in one of the companion book pages, saying he was likely the bastard child of the Cronqvist family -- an obvious nod to the original canon for fans, and otherwise a dismissable entry to non-fans.  It would have been interesting to see it developed more.

People complaining about the lack of civilians out -- it kind of makes sense -- it's late at night.  Working around downtown, I can guaranteee that after last call, everything is closed.  And the business/museum/art districts are generally ghost-town-ish.  Might have been interesting to see some bums out, but at the same time, we see the demonic mutants.  If Dracula went through a clubbing area or something with bars earlier in the game (prior to last call) I might understand some of the criticism of a "vacant city."  I think it works, though.

It does sound like Victor got thrown under the bus, though. 

Enric probably does have an ego, but at the same time, everyone has differences in opinion.  The folks I have working under me at work will come up with a "new way" to do things and sometimes, they're good -- but most times, there's a reason why someone is under me -- I have the experience/knowledge of why we should do something.  That being said, if everything was shot down, Enric is probably at fault and totally nuts.  A few features should have been included, I would think, at the very least.  But then there's always feature-envy, requests, budget, etc...  it's tough to handle ADDING things in.

The flow of the game seems pretty decent so far, but I also echo the sentiment that I wish, once we were discovered in the Stealth segments, we could "attack."  I would have loved to fight Carmilla or the Golgoth guards.  But then again, I also resent that I couldn't even open a freaking gate and was required to be in a Golgoth guard to access it.  That might have been an interesting mix-up.  Give us a Deus-Ex kind of option when it comes to the stealth segments...  Maybe for Agreus (haven't gotten there yet, but I'm supposedly close), completing the stealth segment SIGNIFICANTLY weakens him, but otherwise, you fight him at "full strength" or something.

Overall, the game is fun (which is what I care about the most).  I would really like to have seen more polish to it, though.  The game COULD be a lot worse off, having lost the art director halfway through, overall employee dissatisfaction, bad morale, etc.  I'm having fun with it -- it's absolutely DIFFERENT from LoS1.  LoS1 had more polish, for sure, minus the DLC.  I think I understand everyone's frustration -- it COULD have been so much more.  I don't think it's a bad or horribly broken/buggy game like something from Bethesda on initial release.  I think it sits firmly between a 6 and an 8.  Lots of special/memorable pieces, but also needs some balancing and a bit more polish, like the first LoS.

What I'm curious, is, if there is a secret ending, since what we've been left with is fairly inconclusive.  Has anyone gotten 110% and are we absolutely sure there isn't a "hidden item" that isn't capable of being found by a Dodo?  I'm sure folks have scanned the resources by now for a hidden cutscene or something.  I wonder, though, if maybe the DLC (if we even get it) will have a more conclusive ending or show "what really happens..."

Sorry for the wall-full.

[Viskod]

Well we're definitely getting the Alucard DLC, because it's already done. I wouldn't call the game a Zelda clone at all because it lacks an actual overworld and anything that could be called a 'dungeon'.

I also just had a fun thought for a plot twist, I think it would have been interesting in this game to find out that Gabriel actually did ascend to heaven when he defeated Satan and that pillar of light shot out of him, and the Gabriel we saw in the actual ending, that Marie took the mask from and kissed goodbye were all of his doubts and impurities left on earth and he just didn't know it, and believed he was the actual, whole Gabriel.

[Terin]

I had wondered the same thing.

It does feel like Zelda, though -- the Castle he teleports to are dungeons -- you even have to get pulled into them by going into a dark expanse to teleport between the worlds.  The overworld is the City.  I think Zelda's overworld (especially in Ocarina of Time) is always kind of bland -- the real character and fun are in the dungeons and special landmark areas.  Maybe a bit of a stretch, I guess, but there's that duality, right?  Maybe it might be more comparable to Megaman Legends, though, where all of the dungeons/tombs/whatever are actually really connected.

But that dual nature -- you get your power-ups in the Castle (dungeon) and you progress the storyline by hopping between areas on the City (overworld).

[zaxiou]

Cox did say it's a bit like Zelda, I guess they had that in mind during development.

[Viskod]

Yeah, I'm sure that's what Mercury Steam told Cox they were aiming for, but they failed miserably in their attempt.

[Rugal]

(click to show/hide)

Okay, I just watched the ending to this game..

I DID like the fact that Death makes an appearance, but the fight itself sucked horribly. All he does is send some bald guys after you nearly the whole time while repeating the same shit talk lines to Gabriel. Kind of a joke boss fight. What happened to the Slogra statue from the ending of the first game? Guess the just put that in there to piss people off.

Now for the final battle.. Pretty terrible. First they make you climb up that big dick creature thing, then you have to fight possessed "Alucard" on top of it, again while Satan repeats the same four shit talk lines the entire time. Absolutely terrible. As for the ending.. Atrocious in every aspect. The dev team must have been on some serious drugs when they thought any of this would be a good idea.  I'm so glad this shit stain on the legacy of Castlevania has come to an end. I was appalled on how bad that ending sequence actually was.

[Maedhros]

I'd just like to pop in and say, since I JUST found it-

I love this track

Castlevania Lords of Shadow 2 OST: Second Acolyte (Exclusive Director's Cut Soundtrack)

One of my top 3,

along with

Carmilla's Spell (Atmospheric) - Castlevania: Lords of Shadow 2 OST

The first music was the one I was talking about. One of the 5 musics that I like on the LoS series.

[Chernabogue]

The "PoD" difficulty level is a real bitch. Really hard.