Topic: "The Dragon Returns" - Castlevania Lords of Shadow Sequel (HERE BE SPOILER INFO)

[The Puritan]

fallen knights and city memorials...

The memorial thingy says construction should be completed by 2057. It could still be 2047 if construction will take ten years.

[Dracul_Belmont]

In the memorials, the one that says that they are thankful to the Belmont family, is that the only memorial that mention the Belmonts?. I say it because I'm at 95% of memorials and scrolls and I don't know where are the other ones.

[Flame]

Look how divisive the LoS series is, that we are arguing about inane shit such as who thinks what's hard and who's opinion is fact.

of course, one could argue that that's just part of the territory. Castlevania fans and all that. fan = fanatic, so...

[Shiroi Koumori]

Sheesh... Guys please calm down.
We don't want Jorge-sama to issue another ban hammer.

[Viskod]

If it can be flawlessly done in a 1:27 seconds, then the issue just comes down to player skill and capability. I did it pretty much the same way as the video, which to me is very straightforward and obvious. So if it just skill based, then the section is only as hard as you make it, and you can't really fault that part of the game since the problem is not with its design, but your approach.

I wish the other stealth section would just automatically reset you to a checkpoint at the beginning of them instead of having Dracula flail helplessly while those guards kill you in two or three shots. That is just poor design, not the sections their selves.

That way they could prompt you with a message about how it is important to their plot at the moment that Dracula went through this area undetected and then drive home that point and clear up the misconception about how Dracula didn't kill those dude 'cause he couldn't, but rather Dracula didn't kill those dudes because that's not how it happened.

Something akin to the game over paradox you got in Metal Gear Solid 3, if you kill Ocelot, since that game takes place before all the others, and Ocelot is in them, so he obviously didn't die at that point in time.

All of these sections weren't "Mercury Steam" anyway, they were just that one dude who's name I can never remember how to spell. The egotistical ass that heads the company. They were his idea and the rest of the team was pretty much "WTF" on it.

From a point, I can agree with him. Animal transformations, cunning, and possessions are definitely things that could and probably should be in a game where you play as Dracula, but there's an infinite amount of ways they could have been implemented and handled instead of this way.

[EstebanT]

Anyone have artbook scans? Mine hasn't arrived yet.

[Intersection]

If it can be flawlessly done in a 1:27 seconds, then the issue just comes down to player skill and capability. I did it pretty much the same way as the video, which to me is very straightforward and obvious. So if it just skill based, then the section is only as hard as you make it, and you can't really fault that part of the game since the problem is not with its design, but your approach.

The point is, if the game only allows for a single, rigidly defined approach, but does absolutely nothing to specifically lead you to it, then the problem is with the design, not the approach.

The Agreus segment, for instance, expects you to use your mist form to avoid stepping on leaves and to prevent Agreus from spotting you -- but the game entirely fails to explain or even suggest this. It prompts you to shoot shadow daggers and tells you to avoid stepping on leaves, but nowhere in the entire game, let alone the maze section, does it bother to explain your invisibility while using mist form. And for most, that isn't at all obvious: how are you supposed to guess that your enemies will be incapable of seeing a moving,  shimmering column of air?

It's a case of poor design which doesn't at all relate to player skill -- every gamer has his own set of ideas when it comes to solving a puzzle, and they often all seem valid in concept; so when a game ends up offering absolutely no way of separating right from wrong outside of potentially fatal trial and error, you really can't expect players to keep their calm.

[Dremn]

Anyone have artbook scans? Mine hasn't arrived yet.

I've seen a few pics on tumblr but that's it.

I can't find the book anywhere in my area.

[Viskod]

The point is, if the game only allows for a single, rigidly defined approach, but does absolutely nothing to specifically lead you to it, then the problem is with the design, not the approach.

The Agreus segment, for instance, expects you to use your mist form to avoid stepping on leaves and to prevent Agreus from spotting you -- but the game entirely fails to explain or even suggest this. It prompts you to shoot shadow daggers and tells you to avoid stepping on leaves, but nowhere in the entire game, let alone the maze section, does it bother to explain your invisibility while using mist form. And for most, that isn't at all obvious: how are you supposed to guess that your enemies will be incapable of seeing a moving,  shimmering column of air?

It's a case of poor design which doesn't at all relate to player skill -- every gamer has his own set of ideas when it comes to solving a puzzle, and they often all seem valid in concept; so when a game ends up offering absolutely no way of separating right from wrong outside of potentially fatal trial and error, you really can't expect players to keep their calm.

Why wouldn't you try Mist Form again? The last ability you got before you entered that area. When you're specifically told, stepping on the leaves will give you away. I mean, would you try to jump over them? Right? And the game didn't give you any tutorial prompts to jump over the leaves, but you'd try it anyway because, duh. Right? You're not supposed to step on them.

It alerts you to the bells because that is a thing specific to that environment that you don't normally have access to.

Its not the pinnacle of stealth mechanics by any means, but its certainly not broken either and the rate at which any given individual loses or keeps their calm is not the responsibility of the designers. They don't program for personality types.

[Flame]

the room has leafless patches and ledges toshimmy accross. i assumed you jad to shimmy along the sides and hit bells on the clear spots.  however you cant jump from ledge to ledge, so i didn't know what to do. i just used the jump and run strategy.

[Intersection]

Why wouldn't you try Mist Form again? The last ability you got before you entered that area. When you're specifically told, stepping on the leaves will give you away. I mean, would you try to jump over them? Right? And the game didn't give you any tutorial prompts to jump over the leaves, but you'd try it anyway because, duh. Right? You're not supposed to step on them.

It isn't as obvious as you make it out to be. Here are a few pointers:

First of all, you actually had to think of using your mist form in the first place, and since stealth sections tend to arbitrarily remove your in-game abilities, that thought doesn't always immediately come to mind. There happens to be an appreciable difference in logic between don't step --> jump and don't step --> turn into mist. It's nowhere near as intuitive.
As for leaving leaves untouched, I'd initially assumed that Dracula's mist form would rustle the leaves as he passed. Simple trial and error did set that straight, of course, but as I said it isn't entirely obvious.
And then there was the matter of Dracula's mist form invisibility. It took me almost half an hour to figure that one out, mostly because the conspicuous red blur Dracula appears as in mist form led me to think that he was entirely visible. I only ended up discovering this by accident, when I'd gotten stuck and caught trying to cross a set of tree roots that inexplicably formed an invisible wall.
Now, I'm not saying this because I consider every gamer to be incapable of figuring a puzzle out on his own. What I'm trying to explain is that Agreus's maze presented us with a rigid, unilaterally solvable puzzle, but without presenting us the necessary elements to solve it. And that, in my book, qualifies as poor design.

And that isn't the only instance of poor design the maze section suffers from -- there's the fact that the area is designed less like a maze and more like one large, linear corridor; there's the camera, which makes the entire process hard to visually keep track of, and which makes aiming daggers at the bells unnecessarily difficult.
There's also the fact that the stealth section is entirely unjustified; and then, of course, there's the fact that you have fight Agreus only a few moments later.

Its not the pinnacle of stealth mechanics by any means, but its certainly not broken either and the rate at which any given individual loses or keeps their calm is not the responsibility of the designers. They don't program for personality types.

That was a figure of speech, you know.

[Viskod]

Its justified because Dracula says he does not want to fight Agreus, then at the top of the tower Agreus leaves him no choice. That is their justification.

What I'm trying to explain is that Agreus's maze presented us with a rigid, unilaterally solvable puzzle, but without presenting us the necessary elements to solve it. And that, in my book, qualifies as poor design.

I know what you're trying to say, but this statement is not true. Otherwise, you would not be able to get past this area. But you can, because you do have everything you need at your disposal and more since you don't even have to use Mist Form in this area at all to pass it.

You're trying to shift the blame of the failing of the player to be intuitive to that of the developer for not holding your hand more.

[NagoriyukiSlayer]

OK, I am at the part where you are chasing Victor, and I'm stuck. I got to the part where Dracula takes off on that burning motor into the ruins, and dropped down some of the holes and returned to the city. Problem is, I can't seem to figure out how to get back to the ruins. How do you get back?

Thanks in advance!

EDIT: Never mind. I just figured out where to go.

P.S.: Has anyone noticed all of the graphic issues this game has? I was running around, and one of the posters on the wall was flickering when I got far away from it. When I got to that roof with the bridge that led to the motor room, I went to that room with the Pain Box that contained a Void Sword crystal. (it's the one with the broken ladders) Thing is, when I go to exit back to the roof, the flame and motor room is not rendering until I actually set foot outside of the room. Also, in that chain platform room in the city area, after I got the Health Pain Box, while trying to jump back up to progress onward, I get stuck in one of the pillars and can't get out, leading me to have to restart from the last checkpoint.

There were other glitches I've come across, (such as disappearing hatch doors) but I was curious if anyone else was experiencing these glitches. For those wondering, this is on the PS3 version of the game.

[Flame]

Ive actually noticed a few texture glitches on the PC version as well. Only like 2, but I noticed them. You know those things that spin next to the map room doors? inside the map room? Yeah one of those was like, clipping with something else. it was weird.

[JR]

Finished the game last night. The ending was okay...could be better, could be worse, I guess.

(click to show/hide)

Kinda wished they had you fight Satan in his own body, instead of Alucard's. His design was pretty awesome. Kind of a Danzig vibe to him, with Raoh's body. I've been watching too much Fist of the North Star again!