Topic: Save your criticism

[X]

Lego Universe, music by Brian Tyler

Brian Tyler... Didn't he do the music for the fourth Rambo movie?

[Inccubus]

And now for something completely different...

Megaman X6 - Sigma 2nd

Best song in the entire series as far as I'm concerned and all they did was cross two old song and rip it out in gritty bit of metal goodness.

[Pfil]

I'll try to make it short.

Though music theory is important, the feeling is the most important thing for me. But few musicians can achieve feelings without theory, because they simply don't know the chords and they always end up using the same chords as the basis for their compositions. Plant is a good example, but he learned by ear (by natural talent) hearing classical music, and he used that knowledge in his own works later, so he didn't study, but he learned anyway. That's the way. You can't skip classical music (or learning from other musicians with classical base). Learning by yourself just hearing and trying to copy or learning in an academy doesn't have that much difference in the end.
But the most important thing lacking is the feeling. For LoS, the Castlevania feeling. And for The Wolverine soundtrack, which was what started all this talk, any kind of feeling.
Believe me, if there's a point I don't miss, is the one about feeling. All that matters to me in the end in music is what I personally feel. But there's always a common theory pattern for that, and it's a neoclassical/baroque foundation in the chord progressions. In other words, you can't make something with feeling if the base are 3 chords repeating over and over, just as you can't make something with feeling using all major chords or all minor chords, because it would lack the dynamism and richness required to reach the soul, the heart. Plant understood that.

We've already talked in another occasion about LoS soundtracks winning an award. That means nothing. The Oscars give away awards to mediocre soundtracks every year, they try to make everyone happy and give awards to different composers and different kind of music every time. It's been many, many years since not even one good original song won the Best Original Song Award, and masterpieces like The Other Boleyn Girl (Paul Cantelon) or The Man in the Iron Mask (Nick Glennie Smith) were completely forgotten in their respective years, while other mediocre soundtracks stole the undeserved Best Original Soundtrack Award.
Oh, and Up soundtrack was silly and stupid, despite all the unjustified praise it received. It was completely out of place in a movie that needed to be nostalgic, and sounded happy and childish. He should have learned something from old children movies' soundtracks like The Prince of Egypt or The Lion King, in how to manage drama music in a childrens' score. I didn't listen to everything he did, but so far I've heard nothing from Giacchino that I liked.
And Hans Zimmer, though he used to be one of the best composers and did some of the best soundtracks ever (many years ago), he's been making rubbish for several years right now (with a few exceptions).
James Newton Howard yes, I love I Am Legend, Batman Begins and a few more soundtracks by him. I respect him a lot, but let's not mix things, he's a movie composer. Later I'll dig more into that.

To name a few videogames from LoS' year that were completely forgotten by those awards, there's:

* Megaman 10
* Prinny 2
* Super Mario Galaxy 2
* Bioshock 2
* Nier Gestalt
* Okamiden
* Fire Emblem
* Xenoblade Chronicles
* Metroid: Other M
* Sonic 4: Episode I
* Hyperdimension Neptunia
* Bayonetta
* Valkyria Chronicles II

...and... how ironic...
* Castlevania: Harmony of Despair.

Yes, a CV game forgotten. A true CV soundtrack, better soundtrack, and infinitely more CV music, and it was COMPLETELY forgotten.

That's A LOT of games with excellent soundtracks. Some of them are masterpieces.
I don't recall reading about any of them winning a best soundtrack award.
And I'm sure anyone can come up with many more names for this list, I just named the ones I played myself.

So no, awards doesn't mean anything to me. It's not like Beethoven or Bach are choosing the winners from beneath their graves.
It's just movie composers. They can't choose their own industry awards right, why would they know what to choose about videogames music? Yuzo Koshiro, Michiru Yamane, Koji Kondo, Nobuo Uematsu, Manami Matsumae... musicians like them should be choosing the best VG soundtracks.
They know what VG music is about, and to be honest, they all have better taste than 95% of movie composers.

And finally, forgive me my arrogance, it's not against anyone from this forum but against the industry: I'd argue any day with James Newton Howard and Michael Giacchino about videogames music, since I doubt they've been playing games for almost 20 years and I doubt they know what VG music is about.
And, more than that, I'd argue about what is Castlevania music with JNH, MG or any other modern movie composer.

People who choose the awards should learn from actual VG composers and maybe they'll know how to choose right, but first they should learn to choose movies' soundtracks awards right, and, given the current state of Hollywood movies' soundtracks, they should begin by learning from past masters like Ennio Morricone and John Williams about how to make music for a movie.

Edit: I'm sorry I couldn't make it shorter.

[Maedhros]

If going by "objective talk" hate for the LoS soundtrack will be MORE unjustifable as in a pure musical sense is a GREAT soundtrack, essays could be writen on why, but the fact it won an international award in which the judges are composers talk by itself. Some of those "nobodies" include Michael Giacchino  and James Newton Howard, and those people picked the LoS soundtrack over every OST in the videogame world in 2010 which had the likes of Hanz Zimmer composing Modern Warfare and Crysis 2 competing against it.

Who are these guys?

Don't answer, I don't care. Bach, Mozart and God could say that it's the best soundtrack they ever heard and my oppinion wouldn't change. Because that's what matters for me. It all boils down to the personal appreciation of the music, if the music sounds good to the person on certain context.


EDIT: Fuck, I'm hours later. I'll keep this here anyway.

[DoctaMario]

I'll try to make it short.

Though music theory is important, the feeling is the most important thing for me. But few musicians can achieve feelings without theory, because they simply don't know the chords and they always end up using the same chords as the basis for their compositions. Plant is a good example, but he learned by ear (by natural talent) hearing classical music, and he used that knowledge in his own works later, so he didn't study, but he learned anyway. That's the way. You can't skip classical music (or learning from other musicians with classical base). Learning by yourself just hearing and trying to copy or learning in an academy doesn't have that much difference in the end.
But the most important thing lacking is the feeling. For LoS, the Castlevania feeling. And for The Wolverine soundtrack, which was what started all this talk, any kind of feeling.
Believe me, if there's a point I don't miss, is the one about feeling. All that matters to me in the end in music is what I personally feel. But there's always a common theory pattern for that, and it's a neoclassical/baroque foundation in the chord progressions. In other words, you can't make something with feeling if the base are 3 chords repeating over and over, just as you can't make something with feeling using all major chords or all minor chords, because it would lack the dynamism and richness required to reach the soul, the heart. Plant understood that.

 There are plenty of soulful and very feeling musicians who have no training in classical music. It may have been during Bach's era that a lot of theory "rules" were put into place that we still use today, but it goes even as far back as Pythagoras. Music is a tower with floors being built on top of each other year after year.  Maybe I misunderstood you but I think it would be hard to say that various songs by the likes of Bob Marley, Hank Williams, Bob Dylan, The Beatles, etc. don't have feeling because they're simple and may only have 3 chords. Flamenco music is an excellent case in point. Some very very emotional music yet also very simple in a lot of cases, sometimes only consisting of two chords (and in many cases your beloved i-V-i progression haha!) There's theory involved with any music, but that doesn't mean the people making the music are actually thinking about it. I don't think about theory when I write or play (not very often anyway.)

 There's no telling what will reach someone's soul emotionally. The same song can affect one person deeply yet affect another not at all. It's all very personal.

And likewise with LoS, I feel the score DOES have that Castlevania feeling. It doesn't always give me the same feeling as older soundtracks, but it still makes me think Castlevania. I can't really quantify what gives me the Castlevania feeling in a piece of music, but I know that I could hear it in something either incredibly simple or complex. It just matters what the composer does with the piece. You don't like Araujo's music, and it's possible that Araujo hasn't ever heard a CV soundtrack before he composed the LoS OST, but in many ways, he captured what *I* personally hear in a CV soundtrack. Is it the best OST in the series? No. But it belongs there in my personal CV world.

I'll try to make it short.
Edit: I'm sorry I couldn't make it shorter.

I lol'ed. 

[Ahasverus]

LoS soundtrack makes me think of LoS, that's enough, it fits the game. Period.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

I respectfully disagree.
I think it's 'ok' in the game....
...but if I could swap it out with some stuff, say, from LoI/CoD/DXC/Pachislot, I would.

But it's not bad music (can't stress that enough).

[Pfil]

Who are these guys?

Don't answer, I don't care. Bach, Mozart and God could say that it's the best soundtrack they ever heard and my oppinion wouldn't change. Because that's what matters for me. It all boils down to the personal appreciation of the music, if the music sounds good to the person on certain context.


EDIT: Fuck, I'm hours later. I'll keep this here anyway.

Who? James Newton Howard and Michael Giacchino? They are two people who very likely never played a videogame in their lives and who know nothing about what videogames music is about, and who also happen to be movies music composers, one of them being great (James) and the other (Michael) one being boring, from what I've known so far.
I agree, in the end personal opinion is the only thing that matters, and awards are just, as someone said some time ago, glorified opinions.
The opinion of people who give awards isn't better than mine or yours, and in this case, you, me and anyone from this forum could have a better opinion on what is good videogames music and what is not.
Movie composers choosing the best videogame soundtrack award? Pst! 
Next time we can go ourselves to choose the Nobel Prize nominees...

There are plenty of soulful and very feeling musicians who have no training in classical music. It may have been during Bach's era that a lot of theory "rules" were put into place that we still use today, but it goes even as far back as Pythagoras. Music is a tower with floors being built on top of each other year after year.  Maybe I misunderstood you but I think it would be hard to say that various songs by the likes of Bob Marley, Hank Williams, Bob Dylan, The Beatles, etc. don't have feeling because they're simple and may only have 3 chords. Flamenco music is an excellent case in point. Some very very emotional music yet also very simple in a lot of cases, sometimes only consisting of two chords (and in many cases your beloved i-V-i progression haha!) There's theory involved with any music, but that doesn't mean the people making the music are actually thinking about it. I don't think about theory when I write or play (not very often anyway.)

Yes and no, you misunderstood me just a little 
Those musicians you mentioned, with The Beatles on top, are masters of their own art.
I was referring, in general terms, to musicians who don't know all possibilities available, so they always end up making the same chords over and over, and if they don't have a classical base, chances are those chords will be boring... I don't know the word, in my country we use the word "square music", but I don't know if in english it's the same.
On top of that, many artists don't have classical training, but it's very likely they've grown up and formed themselves as musicians listening to Queen, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin... bands that had classical basis on their compositions, so the base is there.
It's not the same case with other kind of musicians, but I've forgotten a very important part in my argument, and that's something I always talk about: you can insert jazz instead of classical music. Jazz is one of the greatest and richest music genres in the world, and it's part of why I love SO MUCH Michiru Yamane.
Django Reinhardt is a godd way to start listening if anyone's interested and wants to know what I'm talking about (though I have many jazz favourites, also).
On an additional note, The Beatles studied Tellemann (a baroque composer) a lot in order to enrich their compositions, and that shows in compositions like Girl or Michelle.
But anyway, one way or the other, there's no denying The Beatles condition of geniuses, just like Queen and many other bands that changed and improved music forever, almost as much as those classical and baroque composers I always mention.

About the progression, I-V-I is too simple. One of my favourites that I always mention is I-IV-VII-III-VI-IV-II-V (in minor mode, I and IV are minors and the rest are majors, I don't know if I wrote it right because in english the nomenclature is very different than in my language).

There's no telling what will reach someone's soul emotionally. The same song can affect one person deeply yet affect another not at all. It's all very personal.

I agree with that. It's a very personal thing.
Yet, I don't have any respect for the majority of modern movie soundtracks. I think they are cookie-cutter products, not music. It's sad, because so far, the only recent movie I've seen featuring good music is "A Royal Affair", and that's a danish movie, and that alone makes a full statement about current poor condition of Hollywood productions in terms of music.

And likewise with LoS, I feel the score DOES have that Castlevania feeling. It doesn't always give me the same feeling as older soundtracks, but it still makes me think Castlevania. I can't really quantify what gives me the Castlevania feeling in a piece of music, but I know that I could hear it in something either incredibly simple or complex. It just matters what the composer does with the piece. You don't like Araujo's music, and it's possible that Araujo hasn't ever heard a CV soundtrack before he composed the LoS OST, but in many ways, he captured what *I* personally hear in a CV soundtrack. Is it the best OST in the series? No. But it belongs there in my personal CV world.

That would be more personal and I can't argue with that. For me, it does nothing. But don't misunderstand me, what I really don't like is the battles music; the ambience tracks, as I said previously some pages ago, are way better than the vast majority of Hollywood soundtracks today.
I can't find the exact quote now, but I remember to read that Araujo said (in spanish, a little time after LoS release) something like "I've heard some works from previous games, and it didn't fit with the vision we wanted to imprint the game with, so we chose to make a couple nods and let the rest to be a completely new vision about this universe".

I lol'ed. 

Haha! That was the intention of that edit 

[Pfil]

LoS soundtrack makes me think of LoS, that's enough, it fits the game. Period.

Perhaps the same could be said of all games 

I respectfully disagree.
I think it's 'ok' in the game....
...but if I could swap it out with some stuff, say, from LoI/CoD/DXC/Pachislot, I would.

But it's not bad music (can't stress that enough).

Yes, to be honest, it's not like the battle themes from the Devil May Cry franchise. Let's be fair. It could have been worse, if Capcom was the one making the reboot.
But I would swap it, too.

Maybe the problem with the soundtrack fitting the game but not sounding Castlevania to most fans is that the very game doesn't look Castlevania to most fans.

[X]

Bob Dylan

Wasn't the majority Bob Dylan's music stolen from other artists in order to make his career? At least that's what I remember hearing about him last year or so.

[Lelygax]

Perhaps the same could be said of all games 

The coolest part is that this time it doesnt seemed to be intentional xD

[Ahasverus]

Perhaps the same could be said of all games 

Your words are as empty as..... eeh forget it  hahaha

And I disagree, if you play Silent Hill homecoming and Shattered memories for example, Yamaoka's compositions sound out of place as the spirit of those games were really different and not "bizarre" enough for it to fit in. A good Castlevania example is Portrait of Ruin, no matter how people twist it, I'll never accept latin bongoes and jazz in my castlevania haha.

[beingthehero]

Who? James Newton Howard and Michael Giacchino? They are two people who very likely never played a videogame in their lives and who know nothing about what videogames music is about, and who also happen to be movies music composers, one of them being great (James) and the other (Michael) one being boring

I've no idea about James Howard but Michael Giacchino got his start in video games, actually. He did the soundtrack to the Lion King on the Genesis/SNES, Jurassic Park: The Lost World for the PS1, Medal of Honor/Underground/Allied Assault/Frontline, and the first two PC Call of Duty titles. His music, especially for MoH and Call of Duty (and I mean the first games from the late 90's/early 2000's, not latter day modern warfare stuff), were absolutely beautiful. I have no opinion on his film work, but I'd say he certainly knows something about video game music.

[Neobelmont]

So no, awards doesn't mean anything to me. It's not like Beethoven or Bach are choosing the winners from beneath their graves.
It's just movie composers. They can't choose their own industry awards right, why would they know what to choose about videogames music? Yuzo Koshiro, Michiru Yamane, Koji Kondo, Nobuo Uematsu, Manami Matsumae... musicians like them should be choosing the best VG soundtracks.
They know what VG music is about, and to be honest, they all have better taste than 95% of movie composers.

The fact that you left out Motoi Sakuraba makes me a sad panda 

In other news about music I want some dang castlevania country hell even some bluegrass (I don't listen much to bluegrass but I do every now and then and current country just does not intrest me now aday as it did back when I was a kid). YES it would be awesome dracula playing the fiddle and everything all up in georgia or transylvania in this case also I remember making a thread about how I was looking up some transylvanian and romanian music iirc I think someone said one of the songs could past as a town theme.

Dang I got to get back my music mojo gotta get back into reading the music sheets as well my casio is catching some dust 

[Shiroi Koumori]

Most people in here are really good at music and such... while pitiful I, barely passed music class....
So in short, I don't understand a lot of things mentioned here, but, Castlevania Jazz... hehehehe, I like it.
Michiru Yamane: Tachismystic Construction ~ Beginning - 2010

In other news about music I want some dang castlevania country

I'm interested in this.