Topic: The first sign rises with the full moon.

[Maedhros]

And by Uzo's logic, we should drop all the other bonus stretch goals as they all affect the game one way or another. What if they need to rebalance the whole game to the extra characters? Speedrun mode, nightmare mode, new game+, the ports...

[uzo]

Not all stretch goals will have bad effects. They all have an effect, just not all of them will detract from the core experience. Some also don't have much of an effect, because they don't infringe on the core concepts of the game.

Also do not underestimate the money required to get high quality 3D games made. It may seem like a lot to us, but for game dev, this budget is pretty low compared to the AAA titles of today (150, 200, 250, 300 million and so on).

[Maedhros]

Not all stretch goals will have bad effects. They all have an effect, just not all of them will detract from the core experience. Some also don't have much of an effect, because they don't infringe on the core concepts of the game.

Also do not underestimate the money required to get high quality 3D games made. It may seem like a lot to us, but for game dev, this budget is pretty low compared to the AAA titles of today (150, 200, 250, 300 million and so on).

Sure.

Separate modes will not detract from the core experience. Or maybe they will. We just don't know how they will tackle this.

[Gunlord]

Not all stretch goals will have bad effects. They all have an effect, just not all of them will detract from the core experience. Some also don't have much of an effect, because they don't infringe on the core concepts of the game.

Also do not underestimate the money required to get high quality 3D games made. It may seem like a lot to us, but for game dev, this budget is pretty low compared to the AAA titles of today (150, 200, 250, 300 million and so on).

True, but also keep in mind that there's a lot of costs in AAA titles Bloodstained won't have to worry about. For instance, EPIC games like Lords of Shadow had to pay for EPIC voice actors like Patrick Stewart, while all Bloodstained has is Dave Hayter (I don't think Mr. Belgrade, as much as I love him, commands as high a price). You are right in saying costs can quickly jump, though; it's possible the 4.5M from investors + however much they end up getting from this KS might get burned through sooner rather than later. Still, I have faith in IGA's budget management since he has a lot of experience with that sort of thing.

[The Most Curious Thing]

Too bad that's not a VIDEOGAME which is what they're saying they're number one in which they are lol

Really now?

Can't believe this game overtook MN9, it's now officially the number 1 funded game on KS.

Well, most funded video game. Exploding Kittens is still no. 1 for games overall 

[uzo]

Sure.

Separate modes will not detract from the core experience. Or maybe they will. We just don't know how they will tackle this.

Yes they can, greatly. If anything more on the technical end of things, since the engine has to support all the factors those modes implement. But think about it simply; randomized level layouts effect the design structure limitations, especially if they fancy reusing main game rooms in the mix. Or maybe they have to for budget and time limits. 3D work takes a long time to do, and MANY people. Level design, is a core component of the game. It effects both main game and randomized mode.

That is just one of many factors, and a really simplified explanation of it. It could be as specific as "Well he randomized mode needs level data to now have this, and remove this, now we have to rewrite this segment of the code, change this, figure out how to accomplish this without what we removed, and reformat all the files." What if a feature from the main game just cant be fixed to work now as a result? It happens all too often in game development.

I think they have good intentions, but are getting too starry eyed. They're spreading their core concept in directions that could cause some big issues. This is the kind of behavior that leads to development hell, or big cuts in content.

I don't know how else to say it. You have to look at it through the design and production lens to really understand.

[Strider Nemesis]

Yes they can, greatly. If anything more on the technical end of things, since the engine has to support all the factors those modes implement. But think about it simply; randomized level layouts effect the design structure limitations, especially if they fancy reusing main game rooms in the mix. Or maybe they have to for budget and time limits. 3D work takes a long time to do, and MANY people. Level design, is a core component of the game. It effects both main game and randomized mode.

That is just one of many factors, and a really simplified explanation of it. It could be as specific as "Well he randomized mode needs level data to now have this, and remove this, now we have to rewrite this segment of the code, change this, figure out how to accomplish this without what we removed, and reformat all the files." What if a feature from the main game just cant be fixed to work now as a result? It happens all too often in game development.

I think they have good intentions, but are getting too starry eyed. They're spreading their core concept in directions that could cause some big issues. This is the kind of behavior that leads to development hell, or big cuts in content.

I don't know how else to say it. You have to look at it through the design and production lens to really understand.

I am a software developer (not a game developer, though), and you still haven't convinced me. And I'm sure you wouldn't be able to convince Iga and Inti Creates either, since there's a reason they chose to tackle this new mode.

I mean, yes, it's obvious that creating this new mode will take resources, but saying that this is a bad move because "I just want them to create the best possible Igavania" is something pretty selfish (IMO). What if for other people "the best possible Igavania" would have a mode like this or just several extra modes? You know, all previous recent Igavanias have had extra modes. People actually liked those extra modes when they were introduced, even if they didn't think they needed them beforehand.

But let's return to the whole "this mode will seal the fate of the main game's design" issue... The new requirement states that there should be a mode in which a dungeon is automatically generated, and let's assume that I am assigned with the task to develop this part of the game...

Since this is an extra mode, I know that the main game should not be affected or altered at all if possible just to make my life easier. Then, alright, the first thing that I am going to do is search for all existing assets that will work in this mode. I will choose the ones that have the right dimensions, textures, colors, attack patterns (talking about enemies), etc. for the theme (type of level) that my dungeon will be based on (maybe even multiple themes). I will then see if that's enough to create a satisfying dungeon for each theme. If not, I will see which existing assets can be easily modified to create new ones that will work with my mode (e.g. the ones that would only need a color swap to work), and if that's still not enough, I will ask them to create newer ones as a last resource.

After considering that the assets I have are enough to create satisfying dungeons with my theme or themes, I will proceed to program the procedure that generates my dungeons automatically, and then test it, remove or modify (it it's easy) assets that didn't work as intended, add ones that I think are missing now (if any), modify enemy parameters (like their HP, ATK, DEF, etc.) for my mode, clear bugs, etc.

Now, tell me, how would that affect the way the main game's castle is designed? Do you see what I did here? I created my procedure (or algorithm) to work with existing assets. Since my mode is not the friggin' center of the Universe, I did not ask them to create all assets so they would work with a preexisting algorithm. And they would be stupid as hell to use a modified version of my procedure (with its obvious limitations) to create the main game's castle.

Furthermore, more budget does not mean a better castle. Designing a castle is art, and with that comes a limit of creativity. More money will not necessarily make a better castle, especially if it's already enough to fulfill the artist's most ambitious vision. That is why they probably decided to promise more modes instead of making the castle grow bigger with every dollar invested into it.

[affinity]

well think Bloodstained castle will be just as large if not larger than SOTN's castle, not counting the 2nd castle.   I'm sure the castle's size takes priority over more modes.   of course they want Bloodstained to surpass its IGAvania predecessors, and massive castle size is one of the foundations to a wholesome IGAvania.

[DarkPrinceAlucard]

I would just LOVE to see the top execs at Konami's faces right now.

Wish they would issue some kind of statement concerning this game, it is now the number 1 most funded game on Kickstarter, thats a pretty big freaken deal considering its main attraction is the fact that its going to be a rebirth of a IP they have decided to neglect as of late.

If I was IGA I would give the biggest of middle fingers to them, but IGA is a humble/nice guy which is why I like him (unlike Cox and Alvarez).

[Neobelmont]

I would just LOVE to see the top execs at Konami's faces right now.

Wish they would issue some kind of statement concerning this game, it is now the number 1 most funded game on Kickstarter, thats a pretty big freaken deal considering its main attraction is the fact that its going to be a rebirth of a IP they have decided to neglect as of late.

If I was IGA I would give the biggest of middle fingers to them, but IGA is a humble/nice guy which is why I like him (unlike Cox and Alvarez).

Funny how no one and absolutely no one has mentioned Cox or Alvarez. For me personally this is hopefully the last time I mention them.

[theplottwist]

I would just LOVE to see the top execs at Konami's faces right now.

Their faces must probably be like "Eh. But will it be mobile?"

If I was IGA I would give the biggest of middle fingers to them, but IGA is a humble/nice guy which is why I like him (unlike Cox and Alvarez).

That gets under my skin somewhat. But Iga has raised some middle fingers to them during the initial campaign. I was laughing my ass off at "What do you do when they take your castle? You build another"

Funny how no one and absolutely no one has mentioned Cox or Alvarez. For me personally this is hopefully the last time I mention them.

If they did what they did, it was because the Konami execs let them. But yeah, I kinda can see Alvarez' face twisting into a frown as Bloodstained spits on his mug.

[uzo]

lots of stuff

In your example consider the room connections. The exit of RoomA has to connect to RoomB from the same size and position. Existing rooms from the main game are crafted as is, so they can connect from A to B in any way they feel is cool. Higher, lower, smaller, larger, slide only, etc.

In your procedure generation they need to find matches, and in order to get more pairs for seemingly random connections you'll need them to be fairly standardized, most likely in terms of position.

In a tile based game this is much easier because its much more plausible to edit the tile structure of the rooms as needed, given you can build a script to accommodate graphical changes to the level without looking bad. This of course is why games that employ this kind of map system are very simplistic visually, very grid based.

But we don't have that here, presumably. It would stand to reason that since they are using 3D, and the general feel that seems to be developing here for the game, they will not be using a tile based collision system. Much less the insanity of trying to get anything that looks like the main game in complexity of background design into such a randomized system.

OK, what now then? You have two particular general options. Make more levels or "hey level designers, standardize your room connections". It is possible they may have to resort to option B. This is a problem, as they dumb down the level design for the main game rooms to fill in for the random level generator. It is of course likely that both A and B would be considered, since they will need some original rooms to go with the generator, however this doesn't mean B will never happen. Once it happens the problem exists, even if A is also done. It could even come down to B for merely a compromise of convenience.

That is one small example, but several compromises like this could occur, each one chipping away at the main game.

As a programmer you also must realize we're being extraordinarily surface level here. My hope is my example was pretty explainable without having to get down to the metal. We could go at this for weeks if we wanted to be detailed on such a complex system, and then we'd be doing IGA's job for no reason.

In the end being a game designer, producer, and a software engineer I will say that I am cautious about this decision to add such a mode. I'm not saying given unlimited time they couldn't do it, but under time and budget constraints they will find it extraordinarily difficult to reign in all of these grandiose features and still make the core game as best they can.

[shelverton.]

As much as I disliked the LoS trilogy (except the very first game which had potential) I don't think Cox is to blame for IGA "losing his castle". MercurySteam pitched their project and Konami was impressed. We really have no idea what the other pitches looked like and we definitely don't know in what shape IGAs "Alucardvania" was. The teaser trailer from a few years back looked - dare I say it - very lackluster. The graphics were Dreamcast era.

In addition to that, IGA had recently made Judgment - a universally panned fighter. And Harmony of Despair - a hodgepodge of recycled assets. Lords of Shadow really came off as a fresh thing and I'm not surprised IGA lost his job.

So, who's to blame for all this? Well Konami, obviously. They completely dropped the ball, failing to recognize IGAs strength, even though Order of Ecclesia was right there in front of them.

Cox came across as a pretty arrogant guy, and he said a lot of things that made him look like kind of an ass. But he won the pitch, fair and square. And IGA was probably a bit fatigued at the time. He clearly was meant to break free and do his own thing.

And while this is a huuuuge middle finger to Konami, they're probably looking less at the 4.5 million dollar Kickstarter, and more on the 50 000 backers. That equals to 50 000 sold copies, even though each backer paid more money than they would with a normal retail release. The conclusion Konami would make is this:
"2D Igavania has approximately 50 000 fans. That's not enough."

So will 4.5 million dollars change Konamis mind? Will they invest in 2D Castlevania in the future because of Bloodstaineds success? I would not hold my breath.

[uzo]

That is 50k fans that went out of their way to shell cash without so much as a screen shot. That's a really good number. Consider how many copies would sell if they had a gameplay trailer and a full marketing campaign. It would be much higher.

The thing is Konami doesn't see that as anything to put money into, even given all of that above. It won't move millions so they wont take the time to promote it properly. X-Blades series comes to mind. Big publishers aren't good with multiple small projects. They want ALL the money from everything, so they roll all their eggs into one basket (MGS series).

[Strider Nemesis]

In your example consider the room connections. The exit of RoomA has to connect to RoomB from the same size and position. Existing rooms from the main game are crafted as is, so they can connect from A to B in any way they feel is cool. Higher, lower, smaller, larger, slide only, etc.

In your procedure generation they need to find matches, and in order to get more pairs for seemingly random connections you'll need them to be fairly standardized, most likely in terms of position.

In a tile based game this is much easier because its much more plausible to edit the tile structure of the rooms as needed, given you can build a script to accommodate graphical changes to the level without looking bad. This of course is why games that employ this kind of map system are very simplistic visually, very grid based.

But we don't have that here, presumably. It would stand to reason that since they are using 3D, and the general feel that seems to be developing here for the game, they will not be using a tile based collision system. Much less the insanity of trying to get anything that looks like the main game in complexity of background design into such a randomized system.

OK, what now then? You have two particular general options. Make more levels or "hey level designers, standardize your room connections". It is possible they may have to resort to option B. This is a problem, as they dumb down the level design for the main game rooms to fill in for the random level generator. It is of course likely that both A and B would be considered, since they will need some original rooms to go with the generator, however this doesn't mean B will never happen. Once it happens the problem exists, even if A is also done. It could even come down to B for merely a compromise of convenience.

That is one small example, but several compromises like this could occur, each one chipping away at the main game.

As a programmer you also must realize we're being extraordinarily surface level here. My hope is my example was pretty explainable without having to get down to the metal. We could go at this for weeks if we wanted to be detailed on such a complex system, and then we'd be doing IGA's job for no reason.

In the end being a game designer, producer, and a software engineer I will say that I am cautious about this decision to add such a mode. I'm not saying given unlimited time they couldn't do it, but under time and budget constraints they will find it extraordinarily difficult to reign in all of these grandiose features and still make the core game as best they can.

Agreed about doing Iga's work for no reason here if we go on with this (I would argue that the position of room exits could actually be parameterized, for example). But I still think that they could come up with something not-so-ambitious without making compromises to the main game. At least I'm not expecting this mode to be very varied in terms of the things (enemies, other elements) that are automatically arranged.

You're the one with experience developing games, though. So I really respect your opinion. I'll just see how this turns out in the end.