Castlevania Dungeon Forums
The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: Mathias Hyperion on July 09, 2008, 05:04:23 PM
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In my thread about Mathias Cronqvist, The Last Belmont proposed a remake of LoI.
The thing that gets me about the whole thing is Mathias looks nothing like the dracula of the other games, the ones produced after LOI included. Could this be some possible forshadowing that Iga is gonna redo LOI? :D , I don't konw but I'm all for it and I think if he went back and fleshed out the plot more and didn't make Leon completely ignorant of everything coupled with a REAL explanation of Dracula's origin not just that he's some random guy who decided to turn evil that it could be really great possibly the best CV game ever.
This sounds like a pretty cool idea. IGA would love it - it would give him the chance to tell an awesome story AND to try to get his 3D games right. He could also make it a more definitive origin story by at least including the name "Dracula" in the script.
But I'm obsessed with the storyline. If LoI was remade, maybe for the next-gen consoles (360, Wii and PS3; well, I suppose they're current-gen now), what would you want changed? In terms of gameplay, graphics, camera, controls, weapons, bosses, locations (they should have more outside the castle), storyline?
(They could even call it Castlevania: Dracula Begins. Perhaps not. Although I do like the movie poster.)
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In Reply To #1
. . . . *smacks Mathias upside the head for that last comment*
Okay, a second crack at the Lament. Hmmmm... Off the top of my head, I wouldst have to say redo the castle completely with a layout worth exploring - tis' a sad day in Wallachia when Resident Evil 4 has a castle that beats the hell out of CV's prime location - and add way more depth to the forest of Eternal Night itself. Rework the voice acting, please, then do some real fine tuning on the bonus character's quests. - For god's sake, if you're going to have hidden playable characters in a game, give us a reason and some freshness. That said, with some minor control scheme futzing to accomodate the Wii and some cool extras for the fans (artwork, interviews, documentaries and fan commentary on CV in general) to unlock, get rid of some of the recovery items and things would be just peachy. - Seriously, if Igarashi-san really wants to make a solid origin story title he needs to cut out the sushi, pizza and pop culture edibles from the items list. And give Leon a warp item to exit the castle in case of dire emergencies. When you gotta' go, you gotta' go.
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And give Leon a warp item to exit the castle in case of dire emergencies. When you gotta' go, you gotta' go.
Well, there was the ticket to Rinaldo's house...
Yes, the castle could be improved to make it far more atmospheric and three-dimensional - give it more character; it is, after all, a creature of Chaos. (Or at least it is going to be.) And more in the Forest of Eternal Night would of course be brilliant.
The problem with the camera is that Castlevania is all about close-range combat. It's all very well for Resi 4 and Devil May Cry with their over-the-shoulders and their lock-ons, but it's hard to keep things properly 3D and not have a frustrating camera. I think LoI did the job pretty well. It wouldn't need to be changed too drastically.
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I've been replaying LoI recently and I have to say it's quite a good game. If only the level design were better, it would be among the best 3D action games on the PS2. Honestly, I feel every other element of the game is just THAT GOOD. It's absolutely gorgeous to look at, the gameplay is great, the soundtrack is brilliant, the combat system is well designed, and the difficulty is spot on. It's just the level design that holds the game back, but that aspect is so bad that it brings the game back really, really far.
I don't think Lament needs a remake so soon after its release, but I think the only thing needed to make it a truly brilliant game is proper level design.
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In Reply To #4
I miss stairs, and climbing, and platforming. Throw a couple of nice tall towers with some of those Winged Guards or Medusa Heads, or Bats once in a while.
The flat layout has got to go. The newer systems should be able to handle tall structures. Maybe he didn't know how to make the map? I suppose it'd be another thing he'd have to steal from Metroid (only this time it'd be Metroid Prime's map system).
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In Reply To #4
I miss stairs, and climbing, and platforming.
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I think it's a little too soon to remake LoI, but what you're suggesting are all great ideas that would only improve an already great game. Remember the prologue? Well, instead of just telling us what happened, why not have the game start off with Leon and Sara in their village/whatever they live in, and then show now the next day Sara disappears, Mathias tells Leon what happened(there has to be an explanation why he knew(for example, he actually witnessed it)). Then, well you have to play as Leon, go to the church, renounce title, blah blah blah, then actually control his quest into the forest, and have a lot more area and an entire stage between Rinaldo and the castle. Well... then just add a few more areas and give it EXPLORATION. Also, some warp rooms would be nice. Oh and make Succubus playable, instead of Pumpkin, but still keep Joachim. Oh yeah, the last boss should be Mathias and Death together. Oh and you don't have to use items while you're being attacked, you should be able to pause for that.
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I actually really like the real time item menu. It adds a sense of urgency and frantic searching for the right item while you avoid the boss's attacks. It doesn't really make sense that you could just stop the battle whenever you like to look for the right item or to grab another beer. I know a lot of people complained about it, but I think it's a great idea that more people should get used to.
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I'd basically add a lot of what you all alreayd noted:
- Forest Called Eternal Night as a full intro stage. Start at the scene where Leon's running and the illusion shifts, then the first stage begins. Have it be dark, yet beautiful. I'd love from the trees to some how provide obsticles THEMSELVES for Leon, perhaps shifting and falling. You encounter your first boss before finding Rinaldo's Cabin, a Werewolf.
- Stages are structured more intellegently to provide obsticles, platforming AND opportunities for story progression. AS WELL AS try to make each location look varied. Halls can look simliar, but take the time to make rooms look unique. Platforms can DEFINATELY add to this(try to make no platforming rooms the same).
- More variety assortment of monsters(except having the same monster models but different texture mapping). Bone Pillars should've been monsters, not traps. And yes, Medusa Heads!
- With the a stage crafted perfectly for story progression, use this opportunity to add more depth to characters and story. It would've been interesting to know a little more about Walter other than, "I'm so evil and bored that I want to see vampire hunters brave through my castle labyrinth!".
- More sub-boss moments like the Doppelganger battles. A great placed sub-boss can slow down game progession to aid story sequences.
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- Forest Called Eternal Night as a full intro stage. Start at the scene where Leon's running and the illusion shifts, then the first stage begins. Have it be dark, yet beautiful. I'd love from the trees to some how provide obsticles THEMSELVES for Leon, perhaps shifting and falling. You encounter your first boss before finding Rinaldo's Cabin, a Werewolf.
Unfortunately Leon would have to fight the werewolf with his fists or some weapon small enough to hide in his armour (his sword belonged to his company and so he no longer carries it).
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In Reply To #5
IGA did not make any of the levels in LoI, or any game since SoTN for that matter. Hopefully whoever does the level design on the 1st current gen Cv title (excluding the Wii) will be able to make the taller tower levels. There are also plenty better games to get Cv level design from then Metriod Prime. I think it was probably due to the limited amount of information a DVD can hold. Hopefully HD-DVD and especially Blu-ray would provide better.
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In Reply To #5
Metriod Prime.
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the video sequences and music take well over half of the dvd since their compression level was poor. i don't think space was the cause of the level design.
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I'd basically add a lot of what you all alreayd noted:
- Forest Called Eternal Night as a full intro stage. Start at the scene where Leon's running and the illusion shifts, then the first stage begins. Have it be dark, yet beautiful. I'd love from the trees to some how provide obsticles THEMSELVES for Leon, perhaps shifting and falling. You encounter your first boss before finding Rinaldo's Cabin, a Werewolf.
- Stages are structured more intellegently to provide obsticles, platforming AND opportunities for story progression. AS WELL AS try to make each location look varied. Halls can look simliar, but take the time to make rooms look unique. Platforms can DEFINATELY add to this(try to make no platforming rooms the same).
- More variety assortment of monsters(except having the same monster models but different texture mapping). Bone Pillars should've been monsters, not traps. And yes, Medusa Heads!
- With the a stage crafted perfectly for story progression, use this opportunity to add more depth to characters and story. It would've been interesting to know a little more about Walter other than, "I'm so evil and bored that I want to see vampire hunters brave through my castle labyrinth!".
- More sub-boss moments like the Doppelganger battles. A great placed sub-boss can slow down game progession to aid story sequences.
Fuck Yeah Legacy of Darkness
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I thought the game is good as it is. However, if it is remade, there are some suggestions that I have and they are in line with most of what all of you have been saying. Here they are:
(1) The Forest of Eternal Night should be its own true area. (Rinado's house would be the starting point, but it would be further from the castle and there would be enemies in between)
(2) Instead of having a warp room that warps you to the individual areas, they areas of the castle should be inter-connected like they are in SotN.
(3) Each area should have at least one warp room of its own that connects with the others within the castle.
(4) There should be more bosses and mini-bosses (the game is too short)
(5) The existing areas, with the exception of the Garden Forgotten by Time and the Ghostly Theatre, should be completely redone.
(6) There should be more areas (hopefully a couple of towers including a clock tower)
(7) Leon and the other playable characters should be levelable. (at least Leon if know one else)
(8) There should be more types of equipment. (Arms, Legs, head, etc.)
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The main issue with LoI is that it's designed as if it's a 2D game even though it's a 3D game, with the solid segregation of foreground and background you'd expect from any regular Castlevania game translated to 3D where it doesn't work at all. In-room detail is folded out of the walls, but is completely non-interactive [to the point you can't even jump over it], and the levels are treated as if they're tile sets in a 2D game rather than actual structures. That needs to be the first thing to change: everything inside a room ought to be possible to jump on or over, and more things should be breakable or possible to examine. I wouldn't mind levels a third of the size if they're not made of identical rooms. Level structure should focus on exploration, but with far greater emphasis on rooms joining together rather than walking in a direction until you can't go that way anymore and then doubling back.
Whip-jumping should just be flat-out removed, it really isn't that interesting a mechanic. Using the whip to swing from things would be nice, but just using attack as a jump button in some situations is silly. If it has to be there, have it triggered with the jump button.
Equally, the camera needs fixing: At very least, there needs to be a camera location at each end of any given hallway, since LoI could only deal with this by never spawning enemies in a corridor if you were walking 'into' the camera. Either a DMC-style system of many fixed cameras or even a proper 3D camera would be much better.
Enemy design should focus on a small number with a lot of abilities rather than a large number with a couple each; that'll make combat more interesting, since you won't just be dealing with the same attacks over and over.
Story-wise, the whole aspect regarding the crusades is silly: not only is the game set a year before the Crusades even started, it seems pretty daft that the church would go for the holy land with perfectly serviceable demons to fight right there in their own back yard, and Leon's renouncing of his title just seems a cheap way to heap more arbitrary tragedy on the character. So, have Leon go with the church's blessing and keep his sword, receiving the Alchemy Whip as well, and let him switch between them as he likes. The sword would be relatively weak but fast and with a wide variety of moves while the whip would be slow, strong and have a bunch of extra combat abilities like wide sweeps or the ability to grab and throw enemies. Ditch the system of learning moves when the game feels like it; give Leon most of the core techniques immediately, with the rest bought from Rinaldo as 'technique books' or something so you can see what Leon's capable of immediately; you shouldn't have to earn even the most basic abilities like Perfect Guard and the default whip combos.
Don't bother enchanting the gauntlet unless Leon's going to start off with a Relic worth using, otherwise hold off on that cutscene until he's been handed a couple. In Lament, the orbs, relics and gauntlet never even came into play during the unbelievably long first level, and it takes forever to build up a decent collection of orbs. They might be cool, but they're not cool enough to be a reward for two hours of wandering around. Also, tighten up the Gauntlet's ability to interrupt the run-out animations of other moves; it's pointless having a guard move if you have to take hits all the time anyway because all your moves have tons of idle frames tacked on the end. Another idea might be to allow Leon to use the gauntlet to catch and throw back enemy projectile attacks, or use MP directly to do so.
The story ought to play more of a role in the stages; not necessarily cutscenes, but shorter stages with stronger themes would work far better; for example, if House of Sacred Remains is going to have an icky biological boss, why not have the rooms slowly shift from stone and metal to flesh and blood as you get closer to it, and the enemies shift similarly from more normal things to boss minions and even the rooms themselves?
Reduce the number of torches and increase the heart pickups to 5 and 10 rather than the default drop being 1. Make it so there's a given item in each candle, not just a single heart or a single coin in dozens of them; after all, they're no longer going to be the only interactive scenery, so we don't need as many. Have Leon run faster, and generally move a little more quickly.
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Some good suggestions here for sure.
However I still think some people miss the whole point of LoI. The castle itself, in the way it was not very explorable, and the whole "mission" of the game was done on purpose. That's the whole story. The castle was Walter's, not Dracula's, and so it did not have the effects and the same atmosphere that Drac's castle would have. Walter's castle was not the "creature of chaos" we all know. It was a totally different place. Thats why the layout and all the elements were so different.
Walter set up "the game" for Leon (and many hunters before him). He trapped them in his castle, and forced them to meet different challenges (in the form of bosses) before gaining the honor to face Walter himself. This is obviously a different scenario than most other CV games, and it was supposed to be. Alot of people didnt quite get that, or they expected a more traditional style CV game and thats why they were dissapointed. Many people simply didnt understand that LoI was supposed to be different...mainly because it was NOT Dracula's castle, and the Belmont clan did not yet know of their lineage.
Thats why I personally have always liked LoI. It was a way different take on the CV story.
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I think it was probably due to the limited amount of information a DVD can hold.
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In Reply To #17
It's a different castle, yes, but that doesn't explain why the entire thing extends over several square miles but is only 3 stories tall at its highest point.
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One interesting idea for LoI might have been to do an origin story for the castle itself, since it is an important 'character' in the series. You could make it that Walter's own Castle is slowly being taken over by the Castlevania castle, which would explain why the inside is vastly larger than the outside appears to be [in the style of the ridiculously creepy story House of Leaves] and the Forgotten One is the last 'master' of the castle who Walter keeps imprisoned to control it. This would give you a reversal of the usual Castlevania ending where Walter's castle twists and expands into being Dracula's castle as the creature of chaos is freed from Walter's control.
It'd also be nice if the death of Leon's betrothed wasn't directly as a result of Matthias' plan; I can accept that he'd be devastated by the loss of his own wife, but it's a bit much that he'd become that evil that quickly.
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In Reply To #20
Walter was just a powerful vampire. He had no chaos, he had no monster castle. Dracula got all that a little bit before Cv3.
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God of War and Devil May Cry both managed to have good level design with the same memory limitations as Lament of Innocence.
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I want to play this game, Once I get it
I will make sure to fight that Hidden boss, from what I have heard, he is kinda creepy.
~Efrit
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Walter was just a powerful vampire. He had no chaos, he had no monster castle. Dracula got all that a little bit before Cv3.
Yes, but that doesn't mean that LoI couldn't have done something like that. Make Walter an arrogant idiot who's in way over his head with the creature he's trying to control slowly warping and obliterating his own castle [hell, it'd give you and excuse to change the hub level every time it's visited], and build each level on that theme, the normal rooms of Walter's mansion slowly giving way to the grand, impossible architecture of the Castlevania castle.
It's handy because it lets you have your cake and eat it: believable settings can be mixed with the fantastic castle of the other games, and we can set up that castle as actively malevolent rather than just weird. You can also throw Leon as many anachronistic weapons as you like, since the Castle has never really seemed to pay much attention to what year it is.