Castlevania Dungeon Forums
The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: DingusBelmondo on June 18, 2010, 12:27:26 PM
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Uh OH! Our argument is a bit of a paradox it seems. Castlevania Harmony of Dispair is TOO Castlevania for some of us, because it doesn't have anything new, yet Lords of Shadow is NOT Castlevania enough because it's too different and doesn't have enough series staples.
Should we be critical of gameplay, design, and innovation? Yes. Should we be condemning these games to be "BLARHGH THE WORST THING TO EVER HAPPEN TO TEH CASTLEVANIAS" nope. Some people would only be happy with remakes of Castlevania IV and III for the rest of eternity. Some only with Symphony of the Night 2,3,4,5,6,7. What we have before us are two games that will clearly not be the last in our long line of games, a series that has had MANY good and BAD games in it's history. Many of which we will live to see. These changes are an inevitability in the game world as our minds and expectations progress. HOWEVER, if Order of Ecclesia (metroidvania), Adventure Rebirth (classicvania), Harmony of Despair (multiplayer), and Lords of Shadow (3D action adventure) will not be enough to satisfy your nostalgia, you are better off sitting home rehashing the past, and not on a internet board.
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you forgot Encore of the Night :P
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you forgot Encore of the Night :P
hahahah. "Do you love castlevania, but wish it was a puzzle game!? Well, you are in luck!" Honestly though, it looks fun, and in no way jeopardizes the series' image. I doubt anyone had a fit when dr. mario came out.
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Eh. Lords of Shadow just doesn't look like a Castlevania game to me, and Harmony of Despair recycles sprites and seems to have no creative stage design. Neither is what I'd like to see.
The thing about the old games is many of them introduced new ideas from previous games, they had their own unique level layouts and sprites, and even though a game like Bloodlines or, for a more extreme example, Symphony of the Night do a lot of things different from previous titles, you can still look at them and see Castlevania.
Rehashing sprites and making half-assed efforts toward level design is not what older Castlevania games did. But they didn't do things so different that it's no longer recognizably Castlevania.
Harmony of Despair seems lazy, and Lords of Shadow should have remained the title of the game, rather than slapping "Castlevania" in front of it.
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I disagree with you abnormal, however, you l.o.s told al the thruth, we are very, very very wacky :P
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Well, and I play video games solo. :p Harmony of Despair almost seems to be what Four Sword Adventures was for the Zelda series, which is a helluvalotta fun with friends, but nowhere near as fun on its own.
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The thing about the old games is many of them introduced new ideas from previous games, they had their own unique level layouts and sprites, and even though a game like Bloodlines or, for a more extreme example, Symphony of the Night do a lot of things different from previous titles, you can still look at them and see Castlevania.
I agree with this, I really wish more classicvanias could be made. However, I think after a while, the format really would get old. Eventually it would get to where Zelda is now where the fans are actually upset that the series is repeating itself. If we could have classicvanias made on the side, like adventure, that would be great. But sooner or later we HAVE to move on.
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What I like are the metroidvanias. What I like about them are the RPG elements and the fact that each one has a different combat system. Plus, I loved the map design in OoE. It saved a lot of time that would have been used backtracking. I also like games like LoI and CoD, except I would like the level design to be more varied instead of the repeating rooms.
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Yep, these people are whacky.. and I believe this LoS guy is Mr Cox ;)
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We are a damn fastidious lot. I almost feel sorry for Konami sometimes.
. . .Then I remember they have jobs any one of us would sacrifice lesser parts of our anatomy for, and I don't feel so bad.
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ha, and all I care about is that it has "Castlevania" in the title and that it appears like a little love was put into the game. i want a little of everything, some new stuff and some that pay serious homage to past greats. as long as there's variety, i'm happy. i want it to be made by someone new, and i want it to be made by the guys who have made it for a long time. so i'm pretty happy with the way things are progressing. i miss the days with Iga at the helm who helped create a unified storyline one tiny piece at a time, but i won't argue with the need to start fresh with LoS.
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I agree with this, I really wish more classicvanias could be made. However, I think after a while, the format really would get old. Eventually it would get to where Zelda is now where the fans are actually upset that the series is repeating itself. If we could have classicvanias made on the side, like adventure, that would be great. But sooner or later we HAVE to move on.
I'm not even opposed to more Metroidvanias if they were done with the same caliber greatness as Symphony of the Night. But none of the GBA or DS games have, for me, captured the fun and style of that game. Part of it has to do with them being on handhelds, but a more crucial part is that the level designs are more often than not very lazy, and so much is just same-old: no new sprites, the character designs and art were for the most part done by Ayami Kojima, the music was too similar, and so on. Castlevania made its biggest step forward with SOTN, and then it came to a standstill—actually, the quality regressed, and quite a bit. The closest we probably got to a really good post-SOTN Metroidvania is Aria of Sorrow. That's the only one that really sticks out in my mind. The rest have their good aspects, but are on the whole kind of forgettable.
I just want more teams to create Castlevania games. It was so varied in the past, with completely different people making each new installment. Different designers, artists, composers, programmers, everything. That form of intense variation died off long ago. But then, maybe nobody else but IGA and co. are even interested in making Castlevania games, and perhaps if it weren't for IGA we wouldn't really have Castlevania anymore, or at least not as many games as we've gotten over the past decade.
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I'm not even opposed to more Metroidvanias if they were done with the same caliber greatness as Symphony of the Night.
Good luck with that. Aint gonna happen. SOTN was lightning in a bottle. Countless attempts have been made to copy it, and although some efforts have been valiant, the magic that SOTN had has never, nor will ever be re-created IMHO. That game was a "reboot" of sorts at the time, and it skyrocketed. Hopefully LoS has a big impact on the series too...
That said, I agree people need to quit their pissing & moaning. All the comparisons to other games and the gripes about the gameplay, load times, combat, etc etc...WE'VE ONLY SEEN A F'ING DEMO SO FAR, and the intro at that!!! They still have a couple months to get things straightened out before release. Plus, the final product will have 50+ stages, recurring characters, an orchestrated score with re-worked classic CV tunes, and many nods to past games. I'm sure there will be PLENTY to satisfy the diehard, lifelong CV fan, plus attract many new fans. People need to RELAX a bit...
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I believe that one day we'll see a title that will make us say "..this is arguably better than Symphony." And by us I mean we, the hardcore fans. You see, casual players think every installment that's been released has already surpassed Symphony (from what I've observed over the years), but we've been playing CV since day 1 (most of us, anyway), & despite a vast catalogue, only a few titles stand out in everybody's minds that are the absolute best of CV. Does anybody here hate SotN? Almost impossible to, despite it's lack of difficulty it still shines. Maybe it'll be IGA's long-anticipated 1999 game, his "trump card" of sorts, that blows us away, or maybe it'll be a different team altogether, but I still have faith that in the coming years we'll see a truly phenomenal 2D game that not only trumps Symphony but all the other metroidvania's.
So, a true hybrid of classic/"metroid" would be incredible if done properly, using elements of CV2's mystery, CV3's presentation, SCIV's gameplay, SotN's beauty, etc. Make it happen, Konami!!!
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I agree with a lot of what Abnormal Freak is saying...Though, one key addition for me:
Because it was released before Castlevania's portable boon, and newer fans generally aren't familiar with it in context, I think we forget the Castlevania evolution that was dropped mid-evolution: CV64 and Legacy of Darkness. First off, these were supposed to be ONE game, but development time and hardware difficulties got in the way. Moreover, they were supposed to include more features that appeared in beta videos that never made it into either retail version, such as whip-swinging over gaps ala Castlevania IV.
The short-lived, misunderstood 3D N64 era was just as ambitious, if not more ambitious, than SotN or anything since. KCEK took Castlevania kicking and screaming into 3D, and made many innovations along the way. We had cinematic elements such as the trees getting hit by lightning, falling, and burning up on the ground in the intro of stage one. There were lesser vampires for the first time in eerie survival horror moments married alongside action & cliff-grabbing platforming with a mostly 3D camera. There were item- and time-sensitive events and puzzles, status ailments, night and day mechanics, a shop with consequences to greed, stage-based levels with exploration, and classic Castlevania memes alongside a fresh gothic/Industrial Revolution-inspired art design and a main hero with both a whip and a [strategic] sword. Furthermore, there were multiple characters and routes through the game with their own stories, a mixture of ambient and heroic tunes (new and old), and, well, the list goes on...And again, all of it was in 3D!
There were no hack-n-slash combos or box-based design–-it utilized all the dimensions of the 3D space. Was it rough around the edges and a bit eccentric (everyone talks about the motorcycles)? Sure, sure. But there was no doubt in my mind that it was "CASTLEVANIA." That all that ambitiousness and headway on such limited hardware was dropped is something that 3D Castlevania has never recovered from to date. Things should have been cleaned up/expounded on that template, I think.
Now, from all the trailers thus far, Lords of Shadow is so much so a reimagining, that it could have been the start of its own franchise, suitably called Lords of Shadow. It's nice to grace it with the name of Castlevania due to its high production values that the Castlevania series has never gotten before, but IMO most similarities feel like tokens to me compared to what was brewing on the N64. No disrespect to LoS, which will be a fine game in its own right. (I personally haven't felt much of the Castlevania vibe yet, which is based in classic horror and adventure more than dark high-fantasy). And yes, CV fans are indeed a wacky brood.
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Like I said before; this fanbase is probably the hardest one to please in the world. I guess it has become this because of how stagnant the series has been for a long time.
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KCET
KCE Kobe ;)
And yeah, what I've always liked about the N64 Castlevania games is they're very Castlevania. They have many poor aspects, but many great ones as well, and a whole ton of atmosphere on top of that. And "Tower of Science" is one of my favorite Castlevania tunes.
It would be interesting to see KCE Kobe do another game; Circle of the Moon was a pretty good effort.
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Didn't a large amount of KCEK work on PoR too? I don't know if I trust them anymore :-X
I agree a lot with RichterB, CV64 was a great first step into 3D. Its strange that they threw out all of the great ideas it had. A better camera and some better controls really would have made that game perfect. If only KCEK made the first PS2 game, the history of the series might have been totally different. I agree that CV64 was much more like the older Castlevania, but at least Lords of Shadow is a step in the right direction.
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I believe a part of KCEK (also) worked on Ecclesia. :-X
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The short-lived, misunderstood 3D N64 era was just as ambitious, if not more ambitious, than SotN or anything since. KCET took Castlevania kicking and screaming into 3D, and made many innovations along the way. We had cinematic elements such as the trees getting hit by lightning, falling, and burning up on the ground in the intro of stage one. There were lesser vampires for the first time in eerie survival horror moments married alongside action & cliff-grabbing platforming with a mostly 3D camera. There were item- and time-sensitive events and puzzles, status ailments, night and day mechanics, a shop with consequences to greed, stage-based levels with exploration, and classic Castlevania memes alongside a fresh gothic/Industrial Revolution-inspired art design and a main hero with both a whip and a [strategic] sword. Furthermore, there were multiple characters and routes through the game with their own stories, a mixture of ambient and heroic tunes (new and old), and, well, the list goes on...And again, all of it was in 3D!
This is a FANTASTIC synopsis of the two N64 games. Well done! I also always really liked both N64 titles for the reasons you listed above. Plus just in general the games had great atmosphere and music. I've long said the N64 games didn't get the respect they deserve.
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Nobody out there, including myself, really liked the CV64 titles when they first appeared. But now that IGA has gone and screwed with the series and it's story a bit we can all now see CV64 and LoD for what they truly are. Yeah, we're all a wacky bunch o' fans. ;D
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Yeah, people seem to be unaware of the fact that those who worked on CotM also worked on both PoR and OoE.
Anyway, I strongly disagree that Symphony of the Night felt like a "real" Castlevania at first. It was a much greater departure from classic CV than LoS seem to be. I'm confident LoS will be acknowledged as a "real" Castlevania in a few years. (Not that I see why people are doubting this. Looks 110% Castlevania to me..)
Castlevania fans accept nothing whatsoever and are totally serious about it. They hate games that try new stuff, and they hate games that stay the same. They honestly don't seem to like video games that much.
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I am Michiru Yamane. Bow down before me.
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I edited my typo on the KCEK/KCET thing. :-[ I meant the Kobe team, of course.
As for KCEK members working on portable games post-CotM--does that really count? I've never heard how many members were officially folded into IGA's team, but I doubt they were in key decision-making positions. From interviews past, we kind of know that IGA sets into motion the main design element decisions and story elements. If I were to hazard a guess, probably those surviving KCEK members within IGA's team were relegated to grunt work. From a little research, it looks like Director Yuji Shibata and Game Designer Takeo Yakushiji (who worked on both N64 titles) did not work on even CotM or anything Castlevania afterward.
As an aside, here's what those two had to say in 1999 about Castlevania from a largely uneventful Legacy of Darkness interview at IGN.com:
IGN64: As a designer, what strategic and/or product decisions do you take into consideration when continuing the Castlevania line?
TY: The Castlevania series has always had a theme of horror behind it. This does not mean bloody scenes or chilling torture, but a mood of darkness and absence of light, that still has cool beauty and elegance to it. Retaining this theme has been what I have been careful with while designing the game. In regards to the character design, I have tried to bring the former enemies to life in 3D and retaining their atmosphere, while keeping them appropriate and looking cool for this generation of game system.
IGN64: How does the technology of the N64 impact your design decisions?
YS: The limitation on the number of polygons that could be on screen and in the enemies. Also, with the lack of memory space, the number of enemies that could be running around on screen at one time.
TY: The anti-aliasing technology worked very well in this project. Even with a limitation of color, we were able to create stunning visuals, even in Hi-res mode. Also, with putting different shading on the texture giving the illusion of depth and distance, it was easier to create compelling levels.
As for Lords of Shadow, I'd say we haven't seen the best of it yet. There have been screenshots or scenes in earlier trailers (like the one where you're swinging over a gap with a waterfall backdrop), that seem more impressive than all the titan stuff. The consistency of atmosphere and how the areas link to one another on that level will be one of the things I'll be looking closely at when the game comes out. As was said, LoS is probably a step in the right direction, particularly when you think about Curse of Darkness. I'm just very cautious if the price for level design (still yet to be seen) and graphics is the loss of the Castlevania soul.
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Well, looking at MobyGames, it states the producer of COTM, Koji Horie (Ko-G) did map design on POR and menu design on OOE. Other than that, I don't see any other shared credits, so...I'm curious where you guys are getting your information and why you're convinced that many people who worked on COTM also worked on those other two.
I also didn't find any recurring names here (http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/NewCV/cvlib-credits.htm).
I think I heard a few years back that KCE Kobe merged with KCE Tokyo, but it doesn't look like any of those who worked on COTM had any hand in the other games.
Castlevania fans accept nothing whatsoever and are totally serious about it. They hate games that try new stuff, and they hate games that stay the same. They honestly don't seem to like video games that much.
I love video games, and adore Castlevania, which is why I get so fed-up with all the uninspired, rehashed bullshit over and over. You can have your opinion on how good or bad Castlevania has been for the past number of years, and I'll have mine. I have a pretty damn good reason for being irritated by how things have been.
Nobody out there, including myself, really liked the CV64 titles when they first appeared.
I adored Castlevania (64) the moment I tested it out in a Best Buy when it first came out, and bought it when I had the money, and proceeded to play it over and over again. I even made a website for it, which at the time was the only site I knew of which really had any substance on the game. Same goes for Legacy of Darkness, which was a day-one purchase for me.
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I love video games, and adore Castlevania, which is why I get so fed-up with all the uninspired, rehashed bullshit over and over. You can have your opinion on how good or bad Castlevania has been for the past number of years, and I'll have mine. I have a pretty damn good reason for being irritated by how things have been.
Yet you criticise LoS for not being Castlevania enough. Aren't you at all happy that Castlevania is finally going somewhere? I'm guessing you want a game that plays basically like CV64, yet you don't want a rehash of anything? Correct me if I'm wrong. Sometimes people cry rehash, and other times they seem to want to play the same old game over and over. I'm not trying to change your opinion, and yes - you probably have a good reason to be irritated. Much like I have a good reason to be really excited about Castlevania finally evolving (Not talking about Harmony of Despair now, though I actually think it looks like a fun distraction).
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My gripe with Lords of Shadow is that to me it doesn't resemble Castlevania one bit, neither in mood/atmosphere nor gameplay. It just doesn't have any kind of Castlevania feel to it, from what I've seen. It's one thing to be innovative and cover new grounds; it's another to do something so left-field it no longer resembles what it's meant to be a part of. It looks like a God of War wannabe, and nothing about God of War says "Castlevania" to me. Yet because Hideo Kojima saw Lament of Innocence, which stupidly turned Castlevania in a hack and slash direction, and then saw God of War a year later and exclaimed, "This is how a 3D Castlevania game ought to be" (I don't have an on-hand reference for this, but this is something he said around the release of God of War), we now get a hack and slash God of War-style game which is basically Castlevania in name only. Yeah, sure, the protagonist is in Simon Belmont-esque armor, is apparently a holy man, and has something resembling a whip (though it looks and behaves more like Kratos' blades), but that's hardly enough to call it Castlevania. Is Dracula even in this game, or at the very least alluded to? I haven't read anything about the plot, but the trailers haven't seemed to suggest any such thing—though it's been a while since I saw the one from last year or whenever.
Lament of Innocence, despite getting the gameplay all wrong (Castlevania just should not be a hack and slash game, and there ought to be lots of platforming), at least looks like a Castlevania game. It has the mood, the atmosphere, the feel—at least of the Symphony of the Night era, which in turn resembled in a lot of ways the older games. And despite its innumerous flat halls and rather uninteresting level designs, it has some really pretty textures and lighting, plus the great music to go along with, so it's an experience, and one I quite enjoyed despite the somewhat dull gameplay. But Lords of Shadow? It doesn't appear to have any such gothic atmosphere. It looks like a decent game (one, however, I admit I'd likely never play if the name Castlevania weren't attached to it—I'm a bit of a loyal fanboy despite my misgivings toward the series as of the past eight years or so), but I'd prefer they just call it Lords of Shadow and lose the name Castlevania. I don't want all the newbies, like a certain friend of mine who's really excited to play it, to pick this game up and think, "This is Castlevania!" thus etching in their minds what Castlevania is all about, when it resembles nothing of the sort.
The N64 games are really kinda crummy in a lot of ways—I fully acknowledge many of their flaws—but at least they look and play like Castlevania games in 3D probably ought to. They translated the old style and feel to the 3D realm, and did a pretty good job at it. Lament of Innocence brought the mood and look over, so I consider it a Castlevania game; but Curse of Darkness didn't get the look and atmosphere, so that game doesn't really feel like a Castlevania game to me (since as I mentioned above, the PS2 games don't really play like Castlevania games).
Yeah. That's a lot of text, and in the end I'm probably conveying nothing of any significance to anyone else, but that's how I feel on the matter.
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Fear not Abnormalfreak! I understand completely where you're coming from ;)
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Well, I understand where abnormalfreak is coming from too. I guess we're basically talking about the curse of the 3D action genre. There are frontrunners and followers. Castlevania used to be a frontrunner but that was ages ago. Whenever a 3D action game is successful, everyone starts to copy it. With Castlevania everyone has their own vision of how it should be pulled off in 3D, but the truth is you need to keep with the times. I agree that the N64 Castlevanias felt more like "true" successors to the Castlevania formula than the PS2 games, but the main reason why 3D Castlevania isn't revisiting the N64 formula is that those games feel extremely dated. So maybe the entire Castlevania formula is dated and won't translate very well to 3D in the year 2010, who knows?
All I know is that Konami wants to turn Castlevania into a modern action game that can compete with the likes of God of War. Luckily for me, I am a sucker for contemporary 3D action games such as God of War, Bayonetta and - to some extent - Devil May Cry. But more importantly I love Prince of Persia and Dave Cox has said that Lords of Shadow is actually more like PoP than GoW. The gameplay demo didn't look at all like PoP, but I understand there are some heavy PoP style platforming in the game. So while the combat is a lot like GoW (which I like, but I understand that some don't) I think LoS will be more than just that.
Translating the original Castlevania formula to 3D would be really difficult without changing stuff completely. A N64 style game would probably be more faithful to the series roots, but would a 3D action game without crazy stylish combos really sell? LoS is basically doing what the xbox version of Ninja Gaiden did - changing everything. I believe Castlevania needs exactly that, and I don't see how it could be done any other way.
Oh, and about LoS lacking a gothic feeling? I simply don't agree with that, but I guess it feels completely different from the IGA games. The horse back riding looked odd, but other than that I get some serious gothic vibe from the trailer and the screenshots. With a touch of fantasy, I admit that.... well, well.. time will tell...
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Honestly I have to say. Is this really the first time mechanics have been borrowed from other games? And to add on to that, is this a bad thing?
Lets take you back to the Sony Playstation. Symphony of the Night was utterly ground breaking, even for Castlevania. It borrowed influences obviously from Metroid, and obviously from its predecessors. You can also see influences of the current era RPG games as well. Was this a bad game? Hell no! In fact it is widely regarded as the best games in the series even to this day.
So even if it happens to be a mishmash of elements from other game concepts, what the hell is wrong with having Prince of War May Cry of Shadows? It certainly cant be much less a bad thing than having Castlevania: Fantasy of the Metroid.
You can extend this even to the visuals. Symphony broke into new territory leaving the barbarians behind, and adding the elegant designs of Kojima. Now Lords of Shadow is setting pretty boys aside for somewhat barbarians again.
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I dunno. Despite its differences in gameplay and art, SOTN just felt like a natural next step to me, and still felt, played, and looked like Castlevania. I never had any qualms with it when it came out; it fit right in with the best instantly.
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Yeah, I agree that SotN was a natural progression in many ways. I also feel that Lords of Shadow is a natural progression of what we currently have for 3D titles. Maybe not exactly a natural progression of 2D Castlevanias to 3D, but it does seem like a natural progression starting from 64 -> LoI -> CoD -> LoS. I think part of the problem may be that the 64 title was not really a natural progression from Symphony, and that in itself spurred its own branch so to speak.
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Yeah, I agree that SotN was a natural progression in many ways. I also feel that Lords of Shadow is a natural progression of what we currently have for 3D titles. Maybe not exactly a natural progression of 2D Castlevanias to 3D, but it does seem like a natural progression starting from 64 -> LoI -> CoD -> LoS. I think part of the problem may be that the 64 title was not really a natural progression from Symphony, and that in itself spurred its own branch so to speak.
The way I see it, it's not that I'm looking for a "rehash" of the "spurred" 64 design, so much as I want to see that design take its natural course of evolution and show us what a more natural 3D Castlevania progression would be when taken to its limit. I wanted that N64 formula perfected visually, technically, and control-wise, before I see the series drastically split off again. For instance, theoretically, if the series had gone from Simon's Quest to SotN, the original NES CV1 formula would have maybe never reached its more complete and beautiful forms in games like Super Castlevania IV.
(The split we're seeing now as far as a re-imagining is kind of like Capcom's Ghosts 'n' Goblins and Maximo, though maybe more so?)
I think the last few posts by Uzo and Shelverton have reached a nice middle ground of understanding of where the problems are in all this. Basically, Castlevania is faced with a need to become more popular, and it's easier/safer for Konami to go with a more mainstream, proven formula than something that might be fine in its own right, but misunderstood by the gaming world. On the flip side, if it did do something of its own as the bulk of the game design, it might become the unique front-runner it used to be in the action-platforming-adventure genre. A sort of nice antithesis to the God of Wars and Devil May Crys. But that give-and-take in design (and art direction) is where the frustration is. (Regarding that art direction, there are splashes of CV, but I can't say IMO how much yet from what we've seen, and the larger divergences have left me uncertain).
Going back, I actually see a break between the N64 games and LoI, though I agree about the progression of LoI to LoS from looking at the popular genres of the time. The sad thing is that they didn't even stay consistent between LoI and CoD. It keeps switching its inspiration point, and both LoI and CoD were never refined in future games (LoI having more potential than CoD, IMO). It kept getting further away from the core of 3D Castlevania. LoS might be a step back in the right direction, but it's not the "revelatory, iconic leap" I want by this point after all the missteps and all the GBA/DS clones that got almost progressively watered down.
As for SotN, I agree that it took A LOT from Metroid...but it seemed to carry the essence of more of a Simon's Quest, which made it make sense for me as a one-off. As that style went on, though, I felt it diverged too far from the strengths of Castlevania. It was a shell of Castlevania, essentially.
I can see this relating to what happened to Ninja Gaiden on XBOX, as Shelverton noted. That wasn't the worst result, but I did miss the platforming and some of the artistic cues from the original Ninja Gaiden series. I have to say, I've never played Prince of Persia, despite seeing it a lot over the years. I know it has beam-balancing and pole-swinging, but I don't know how all the platforming mechanics work, so I'm not sure how that will translate into LoS.
One last thing (issue) in my rambling here: The story of LoS seems a bit too reminiscent of other stories and feels like it is being sandwiched into Castlevania. It reminds me of Shadow of the Colossus, where you slay "Villain X" to get power to bring your love back to life, but said power curses you with darkness. Moreover, the whole pieces of the runic mask remind me of the Fused Shadows from Zelda: Twilight Princess, which eventually turned into a mask with "immense power" when whole.
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I don't know where to post this, but I kinda prefer any of the metroidvanias that were released after SOTN than SOTN. Of course, some of them have some aspects that are worse than SOTN (actually, music on these games will never be as good as SOTN), like DoS/PoR kiddyt visuals, but the innovations and increased difficult (which is my main grip with SOTN, easy as hell, and I hate easy games) make me prefer them.
That being said, I kinda want LoS to be sucessfull, these type of games (2D Metroidvanias) are getting a bit old, with no twists at all. That game screams Castlevania to me, since the first trailer. Castlevania was always about epic battles, exploration and platform, and that game looks like translating that well on 3D.
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I kinda prefer any of the metroidvanias that were released after SOTN than SOTN. Of course, some of them have some aspects that are worse than SOTN (actually, music on these games will never be as good as SOTN), like DoS/PoR kiddyt visuals, but the innovations and increased difficult (which is my main grip with SOTN, easy as hell, and I hate easy games) make me prefer them.
I actually think SotN was harder than all of the GBA/DS Castlevanias. Except Circle of the Moon which was kinda challenging at times, especially towards the end. Of course, when I played SotN I had never really played anything like it so that may have something to do with it. By the time Order of Ecclesia was released, I was kinda awesome at Metroidvanias, lol. But I still died a few times. Though I was very surprised how reviewers described OoE as "very challenging". It's only ever challenging in the beginning when you're not that powerful. After that you become an 'effin godess of war!
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SOTN definately had it's challenges, especially early on before you're HP/MP are up and you don't have the best weapons. However, even with weak stats, you're still greatly aided by the amazing controls (being able to switch direction mid-jump, then later the double jump, etc). Also, you can do spells without finding the spell scrolls. I remember discovering alot of spells on accident that way 8)
Once you get the Crissaergrim though, the game is over. You can finish it blindfolded. That sword is, in a word, unfair ;)
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I actually think SotN was harder than all of the GBA/DS Castlevanias. Except Circle of the Moon which was kinda challenging at times, especially towards the end. Of course, when I played SotN I had never really played anything like it so that may have something to do with it. By the time Order of Ecclesia was released, I was kinda awesome at Metroidvanias, lol. But I still died a few times. Though I was very surprised how reviewers described OoE as "very challenging". It's only ever challenging in the beginning when you're not that powerful. After that you become an 'effin godess of war!
I've never heard that one before! Unless you mean in the deeper levels of the Inverted Castle and some of it's extra bosses. That's the only challenge I see in the game. Everything you need to do to finish the game is a cakewalk. The DS/GBA are easy too (exception of CotM, Julius Mode and OoE) but not as east as SotN. Goes to show how great the gameplay in SotN was that hardcore fans that normally like difficult games love this gem. OoE gets easy when you get better weapons and you learn the boss patterns. It's a game with a learning curve much like Castlevania 1 or 3. But I like to hear of your challenges in the SotN, please tell! :)
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OoE was definitely more challenging for me. SotN was only hard the first time for me... because I was always on edge. Since I played it on my friend's playstation, and the idiot (obviously not my friend anymore) had no memory card. So I was like..... shit shit, I can't die and have to restart all over again! But you get so overpowered when you get around 4 hours in... less if you've played the game a few times before, that you just don't have to worry anymore.
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OoE was definitely more challenging for me. SotN was only hard the first time for me... because I was always on edge. Since I played it on my friend's playstation, and the idiot (obviously not my friend anymore) had no memory card. So I was like..... shit shit, I can't die and have to restart all over again! But you get so overpowered when you get around 4 hours in... less if you've played the game a few times before, that you just don't have to worry anymore.
Wow, that reminds me when I first bought my PS1 and my first two games I bought with it were Reisdent Evil and Alien Trilogy. But I forgot to get a memory card. RE was pretty impossible without one, so I hear what you're saying!
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Yes, I've noticed the hypocrisy.
I guess some of the old school fans won't be happy until a traditonal stage by stage 2D CV is made, and sold on XBLA and PSN.
Now THAT would be sweet.
Personally, I'd love to see a CV classic style Beat'em-up, a-la Final Fight.
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I liked Castlevania Adventure Rebirth. That was s definite throwback and a great downloadable for Wii.
But I also like what I see so far of Lords of Shadow, and also like the MetroidVanias.
The only games I really dislike are the two PS2 games, only because of how ridiculously large and boring (but pretty) everything is.
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The only games I really dislike are the two PS2 games, only because of how ridiculously large and boring (but pretty) everything is.
Especially the second one. That game proved without a doubt that Ita needs to stick to 2D.
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I feel LOI is a good game. Not great, but good. What it lacks in level design, it makes up for in great atmosphere. COD just...blows in every way except the music.
And yeah, The Adventure ReBirth is great. I've played through that one so many times already.
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Especially the second one. That game proved without a doubt that Ita needs to stick to 2D.
Wait why? I actually really liked CoD. The levels were somewhat boring and very boring towards the end but it was really enjoyable for me.
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Once you get the Crissaergrim though, the game is over. You can finish it blindfolded. That sword is, in a word, unfair ;)
Amen to that. That sword is like God's lawnmower, just cuts down anything in it's path almost instantly. Bosses included.
I pretty much never use it for that reason.
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Wait why? I actually really liked CoD. The levels were somewhat boring and very boring towards the end but it was really enjoyable for me.
To each his own I suppose, to imo (and almost everyone elses as well) CoD blew goats. 37 goats in fact. In a row.
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To each his own I suppose, to imo (and almost everyone elses as well) CoD blew goats. 37 goats in fact. In a row.
37? Damn. Does the game come into the quick stop and bring you lasagna for lunch too? And was one of the goats named Snowball?
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Personally, I'd love to see a CV classic style Beat'em-up, a-la Final Fight.
That's what Lament of Innocence is for. It's basically medieval Final Fight; Clear screen of all enemies so that you can move to the next screen where you have to clear screen of all enemies.
Actually, LoI is Smash TV, though nowhere near as good.
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CoD is better than SotN in my opinion.
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I feel LOI is a good game. Not great, but good. What it lacks in level design, it makes up for in great atmosphere. COD just...blows in every way except the music.
Agreed on LoI. Fun game, unique, not stellar, but overall solid. I was gonna say exactly the opposite about CoD though. I really didn't care much for that score. Seemed too experimental to me. The game was fun to play at times though. Repetitive yes, but I liked the combat and creating weapons was kinda cool. Plus Trevor is just a badass.
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CoD is better than SotN in my opinion.
D:
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CoD is better than SotN in my opinion.
that is... unheard of! :o
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CoD is better than SotN in my opinion.
I wouldn't go so far as to rank it higher than Symphony, but here is a list of Castlevania games I would put Curse of Darkness above:
Lament of Innocence
Circle of the Moon
Harmony of Dissonance
Order of Ecclessia
64/Legacy of Darkness
Aria of Sorrow
Dawn of Sorrow
Adventure
Dracula X (SNES)
Legends
I know its not a popular opinion around here, but Curse of Darkness is one of the ten or so I get the urge to replay at least once every 2-3 years.
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CoD is better than SotN in my opinion.
You're opinion is wrong :o
Although, am I alone in thinking that LoI is worse than CoD? I can't even bring myself to finish LoI.
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I dislike CoD mostly because of how much potential it had. It could've been an awesome Simon's Quest in 3D with interesting environments and level design. I did like the ability to level up like in the Metroidvanias, and I absolutely A D O R E the soundtrack. It's just so beautiful I can't even begin to describe how much I love it.
Rest of the game was excruciatingly boring and the drawn out levels made the game feel much longer than it really was. Also, Hector is very slow. Or maybe the stages are too big. Anyhow the game moved at a snails pace. Graphically, CoD is strangely enough a step down from Lament of Innocence. I have no idea what happened here. Maybe it has something to do with the fixed camera in LoI?
Now, I don't mind outdated visuals if the game was fun, but the level design is so lazy I don't know if I've seen anything quite like it on the PS2, especially not for a game of CoDs size. At least LoI's samey levels were pretty to look at.
Conclusion: CoD is worth playing if only for the music, but I'd rather just listen to OST. I sincerely hope someone (IGA?) can make a 3D RPG style Castlevania work in the future. There's SO much potential here.
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I always used Hector's roll technique to move faster. I think it was a roll technique, been a while since I played it.
But yeah, CoD's negatives definately outweigh it's positives. It really should've been an epic game, but it seems the designers got lazy and should've been given more time to polish things up.
By the way. Why do I get the feeling that had IGA's Alucard game been greenlit, the 3D model would've been the same as his Judgment model? Just sayin'...
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CoD is better than SotN in my opinion.
GET OUT AND NEVER COME BACK
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I wouldn't go so far as to rank it higher than Symphony, but here is a list of Castlevania games I would put Curse of Darkness above:
Lament of Innocence
Circle of the Moon
Harmony of Dissonance
Order of Ecclessia
64/Legacy of Darkness
Aria of Sorrow
Dawn of Sorrow
Adventure
Dracula X (SNES)
Legends
I know its not a popular opinion around here, but Curse of Darkness is one of the ten or so I get the urge to replay at least once every 2-3 years.
:(
Every time I try to play through that game (still haven't beaten it), I get so bored within minutes and barely get anywhere.
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I enjoyed CoD's combat, ID system, and soundtrack. However, the level design (which is arguably the most important thing for something like this) was ABYSMAL. Just completely awful: there was virtually no platforming and the areas were flat and repetitive. Never did I think that Dracula's Castle, of all things, could be as shitty as it ended up being in CoD.
Playing as Trevor was super fun, though.
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I wouldn't go so far as to rank it higher than Symphony, but here is a list of Castlevania games I would put Curse of Darkness above:
Lament of Innocence
Circle of the Moon
Harmony of Dissonance
Order of Ecclessia
64/Legacy of Darkness
Aria of Sorrow
Dawn of Sorrow
Adventure
Dracula X (SNES)
Legends
I know its not a popular opinion around here, but Curse of Darkness is one of the ten or so I get the urge to replay at least once every 2-3 years.
You can GTFO out too.
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37? Damn. Does the game come into the quick stop and bring you lasagna for lunch too? And was one of the goats named Snowball?
Yeah, and every time CoD leaves the house I have to tell it to try not to blow any goats on the way to the parking lot.
CoD is better than SotN in my opinion.
Well apparently, your opinion, not unlike CoD, also blows goats.
J/K, you must be a young'in (that was dropped on his head in the delivery room) ;) ;D :-* , and so came to the CV series late in the game.
*note - Sorry, please know that I'm only joking with you. But seriously. CoD better than SotN? W...T...F!?*
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That's what Lament of Innocence is for. It's basically medieval Final Fight; Clear screen of all enemies so that you can move to the next screen where you have to clear screen of all enemies.
Actually, LoI is Smash TV, though nowhere near as good.
No no, I mean as in multiplayer. Laid out just like Final Fight type games, with multiple characters to choose from, up to four players at a time, online enabled.
Hell, it could be easily laid out like the Capcom D&D Beat'em-ups, with multiple paths, and the ability to find better weapons and armor. Would be Eff'in SWEET!
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The only 3D vania i played was 64. And The graphics were kinda shitty and it was super frustrating at times. But it REALLY had nice atmosphere, even the first couple minutes with its bad graphics it was creepy. Also some of the environments were interesting.
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You can GTFO out too.
NEVER!!!
I don't want to get the f**k out out (sic). :P
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It's just an opinion, guys, so chill! :) Besides, no opinion is right or wrong, that's what facts are for. If anything, CoD was actually the first IGA game I ever played, and is my favorite one to date, despite it's many problems. Getting back on topic, we fans are pretty damn hard to please, and I guess it's because some of us are split into two groups: The Metroivania camp and the Classicvania one.
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Alright then, it is a fact that SotN is better than CoD.
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In terms of gameplay and what not, yes. But either way, I say that this argument over games that are more than a year old be put to an end. Why don't we focus on the now? Like Los and HD?
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Uh OH! Our argument is a bit of a paradox it seems. Castlevania Harmony of Dispair is TOO Castlevania for some of us, because it doesn't have anything new, yet Lords of Shadow is NOT Castlevania enough because it's too different and doesn't have enough series staples.
Should we be critical of gameplay, design, and innovation? Yes. Should we be condemning these games to be "BLARHGH THE WORST THING TO EVER HAPPEN TO TEH CASTLEVANIAS" nope. Some people would only be happy with remakes of Castlevania IV and III for the rest of eternity. Some only with Symphony of the Night 2,3,4,5,6,7. What we have before us are two games that will clearly not be the last in our long line of games, a series that has had MANY good and BAD games in it's history. Many of which we will live to see. These changes are an inevitability in the game world as our minds and expectations progress. HOWEVER, if Order of Ecclesia (metroidvania), Adventure Rebirth (classicvania), Harmony of Despair (multiplayer), and Lords of Shadow (3D action adventure) will not be enough to satisfy your nostalgia, you are better off sitting home rehashing the past, and not on a internet board.
While I generally agree with this post, an argument can be made by someone who prefers certain ones of these to be done differently. Adventure Rebirth, for example, falls short of what a much better 'classicvania' could be. It felt like a cheap $10 download, and completely underwhelming next to something like Mega Man 9, imho. :) I didn't think it was bad, but I didn't think it was anything above mediocre.
My biggest gripes about Castlevania are less about innovation vs. delivering series' staples (I'll be into a metroidvania, classicvania, 3-D game, etc, if they're good), and more about aesthetic. I would like for the tone of a Castlevania game to be nailed, first and foremost. Curse of Darkness is a pretty solid example of what I don't want from the series. I thought the execution for the story was downright embarrassing. Corny characters and other things contributed to the problem. The character styles and dialogue from some of the DS games were questionable for me too, but at least the game play is decent enough for me to still enjoy the overall experience.
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I say that this argument over games that are more than a year old be put to an end. Why don't we focus on the now? Like Los and HD?
Alright then, it is a fact that LoS is better than HD.
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Adventure Rebirth, for example, falls short of what a much better 'classicvania' could be. It felt like a cheap $10 download, and completely underwhelming next to something like Mega Man 9, imho. :) I didn't think it was bad, but I didn't think it was anything above mediocre.
Really? I just don't care for Mega Man 9 much. The level designs and bosses aren't particularly riveting, and the graphics are really poor—sub-Mega Man 2 quality. It just seems like a very lazy effort to me, whereas Castlevania: The Adventure ReBirth is so much more fleshed out and fun. It felt more like a nice addition to its series rather than a corny throwback, to me anyway.
Alright then, it is a fact that SotN is better than CoD.
WHOOP, WHOOP! HERE WE GO WITH THE FACTS AGAIN!
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Alright then, it is a fact that LoS is better than HD.
LOL :D
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WHOOP, WHOOP! HERE WE GO WITH THE FACTS AGAIN!
I'd hate to think what would happen if I wasn't here to set the record straight.
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There'd be a lot less uzo ego to entertain us boring masses :'(
-X
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uzego
:)
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I aim to please.
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I used to hate uzo when he came first to this forum, but now i changed my mind and i find him a very cool person!! 8)
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Suggestion to change topic title to Us Wacky Uzo Fans.
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<------ president of the National uzo Fan Club =P
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I feel so loved.
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I feel so loved.
*pokes you in the eye and kicks you in the groin*
How about now?
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Brutal!! -Nathen Explosion
-X
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*pokes you in the eye and kicks you in the groin*
How about now?
You wish you could. Even if met face to face you wouldn't be able to though. I suppose you can always dream about it.
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It's 'cuz his face is too adorable, not because he's tough. :P
Coochiecoochiecoo! ;P
IT HAD TO BE DONE! :P
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Does anyone want to play harmony of dispair with me gamertag---> (Deviousbladezz) (xbox 360)???
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Wow. A shameless plug Necropost?
tsk tsk.
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I HATE UZO
EDIT: Oh, I didn't see this was a necropost. Well then...I love Uzo too!