Topic: Us Wacky Castlevania Fans

[A-Yty]

Like I said before; this fanbase is probably the hardest one to please in the world. I guess it has become this because of how stagnant the series has been for a long time.

[Abnormal Freak]

KCET

KCE Kobe ;)

And yeah, what I've always liked about the N64 Castlevania games is they're very Castlevania. They have many poor aspects, but many great ones as well, and a whole ton of atmosphere on top of that. And "Tower of Science" is one of my favorite Castlevania tunes.

It would be interesting to see KCE Kobe do another game; Circle of the Moon was a pretty good effort.

[Harrycombs]

^
Didn't a large amount of KCEK work on PoR too? I don't know if I trust them anymore

I agree a lot with RichterB, CV64 was a great first step into 3D. Its strange that they threw out all of the great ideas it had. A better camera and some better controls really would have made that game perfect. If only KCEK made the first PS2 game, the history of the series might have been totally different. I agree that CV64 was much more like the older Castlevania, but at least Lords of Shadow is a step in the right direction.

[Nagumo]

I believe a part of KCEK (also) worked on Ecclesia. 

[Thunderbrand]

The short-lived, misunderstood 3D N64 era was just as ambitious, if not more ambitious, than SotN or anything since. KCET took Castlevania kicking and screaming into 3D, and made many innovations along the way. We had cinematic elements such as the trees getting hit by lightning, falling, and burning up on the ground in the intro of stage one. There were lesser vampires for the first time in eerie survival horror moments married alongside action & cliff-grabbing platforming with a mostly 3D camera. There were item- and time-sensitive events and puzzles, status ailments, night and day mechanics, a shop with consequences to greed, stage-based levels with exploration, and classic Castlevania memes alongside a fresh gothic/Industrial Revolution-inspired art design and a main hero with both a whip and a [strategic] sword. Furthermore, there were multiple characters and routes through the game with their own stories, a mixture of ambient and heroic tunes (new and old), and, well, the list goes on...And again, all of it was in 3D!

This is a FANTASTIC synopsis of the two N64 games. Well done! I also always really liked both N64 titles for the reasons you listed above. Plus just in general the games had great atmosphere and music. I've long said the N64 games didn't get the respect they deserve.

[X]

Nobody out there, including myself, really liked the CV64 titles when they first appeared. But now that IGA has gone and screwed with the series and it's story a bit we can all now see CV64 and LoD for what they truly are. Yeah, we're all a wacky bunch o' fans. 

-X

[shelverton.]

Yeah, people seem to be unaware of the fact that those who worked on CotM also worked on both PoR and OoE.

Anyway, I strongly disagree that Symphony of the Night felt like a "real" Castlevania at first. It was a much greater departure from classic CV than LoS seem to be. I'm confident LoS will be acknowledged as a "real" Castlevania in a few years. (Not that I see why people are doubting this. Looks 110% Castlevania to me..)

Castlevania fans accept nothing whatsoever and are totally serious about it. They hate games that try new stuff, and they hate games that stay the same. They honestly don't seem to like video games that much.

[Rugal]

I am Michiru Yamane. Bow down before me.

[RichterB]

I edited my typo on the KCEK/KCET thing. I meant the Kobe team, of course.

As for KCEK members working on portable games post-CotM--does that really count? I've never heard how many members were officially folded into IGA's team, but I doubt they were in key decision-making positions. From interviews past, we kind of know that IGA sets into motion the main design element decisions and story elements. If I were to hazard a guess, probably those surviving KCEK members within IGA's team were relegated to grunt work. From a little research, it looks like Director Yuji Shibata and Game Designer Takeo Yakushiji (who worked on both N64 titles) did not work on even CotM or anything Castlevania afterward.

As an aside, here's what those two had to say in 1999 about Castlevania from a largely uneventful Legacy of Darkness interview at IGN.com:

IGN64: As a designer, what strategic and/or product decisions do you take into consideration when continuing the Castlevania line?

TY: The Castlevania series has always had a theme of horror behind it. This does not mean bloody scenes or chilling torture, but a mood of darkness and absence of light, that still has cool beauty and elegance to it. Retaining this theme has been what I have been careful with while designing the game. In regards to the character design, I have tried to bring the former enemies to life in 3D and retaining their atmosphere, while keeping them appropriate and looking cool for this generation of game system.

IGN64: How does the technology of the N64 impact your design decisions?

YS: The limitation on the number of polygons that could be on screen and in the enemies. Also, with the lack of memory space, the number of enemies that could be running around on screen at one time.

TY: The anti-aliasing technology worked very well in this project. Even with a limitation of color, we were able to create stunning visuals, even in Hi-res mode. Also, with putting different shading on the texture giving the illusion of depth and distance, it was easier to create compelling levels.

As for Lords of Shadow, I'd say we haven't seen the best of it yet. There have been screenshots or scenes in earlier trailers (like the one where you're swinging over a gap with a waterfall backdrop), that seem more impressive than all the titan stuff. The consistency of atmosphere and how the areas link to one another on that level will be one of the things I'll be looking closely at when the game comes out. As was said, LoS is probably a step in the right direction, particularly when you think about Curse of Darkness. I'm just very cautious if the price for level design (still yet to be seen) and graphics is the loss of the Castlevania soul.

[Abnormal Freak]

Well, looking at MobyGames, it states the producer of COTM, Koji Horie (Ko-G) did map design on POR and menu design on OOE. Other than that, I don't see any other shared credits, so...I'm curious where you guys are getting your information and why you're convinced that many people who worked on COTM also worked on those other two.

I also didn't find any recurring names here.

I think I heard a few years back that KCE Kobe merged with KCE Tokyo, but it doesn't look like any of those who worked on COTM had any hand in the other games.

Castlevania fans accept nothing whatsoever and are totally serious about it. They hate games that try new stuff, and they hate games that stay the same. They honestly don't seem to like video games that much.

I love video games, and adore Castlevania, which is why I get so fed-up with all the uninspired, rehashed bullshit over and over. You can have your opinion on how good or bad Castlevania has been for the past number of years, and I'll have mine. I have a pretty damn good reason for being irritated by how things have been.

Nobody out there, including myself, really liked the CV64 titles when they first appeared.

I adored Castlevania (64) the moment I tested it out in a Best Buy when it first came out, and bought it when I had the money, and proceeded to play it over and over again. I even made a website for it, which at the time was the only site I knew of which really had any substance on the game. Same goes for Legacy of Darkness, which was a day-one purchase for me.

[shelverton.]

I love video games, and adore Castlevania, which is why I get so fed-up with all the uninspired, rehashed bullshit over and over. You can have your opinion on how good or bad Castlevania has been for the past number of years, and I'll have mine. I have a pretty damn good reason for being irritated by how things have been.

Yet you criticise LoS for not being Castlevania enough. Aren't you at all happy that Castlevania is finally going somewhere? I'm guessing you want a game that plays basically like CV64, yet you don't want a rehash of anything? Correct me if I'm wrong. Sometimes people cry rehash, and other times they seem to want to play the same old game over and over. I'm not trying to change your opinion, and yes - you probably have a good reason to be irritated. Much like I have a good reason to be really excited about Castlevania finally evolving (Not talking about Harmony of Despair now, though I actually think it looks like a fun distraction).

[Abnormal Freak]

My gripe with Lords of Shadow is that to me it doesn't resemble Castlevania one bit, neither in mood/atmosphere nor gameplay. It just doesn't have any kind of Castlevania feel to it, from what I've seen. It's one thing to be innovative and cover new grounds; it's another to do something so left-field it no longer resembles what it's meant to be a part of. It looks like a God of War wannabe, and nothing about God of War says "Castlevania" to me. Yet because Hideo Kojima saw Lament of Innocence, which stupidly turned Castlevania in a hack and slash direction, and then saw God of War a year later and exclaimed, "This is how a 3D Castlevania game ought to be" (I don't have an on-hand reference for this, but this is something he said around the release of God of War), we now get a hack and slash God of War-style game which is basically Castlevania in name only. Yeah, sure, the protagonist is in Simon Belmont-esque armor, is apparently a holy man, and has something resembling a whip (though it looks and behaves more like Kratos' blades), but that's hardly enough to call it Castlevania. Is Dracula even in this game, or at the very least alluded to? I haven't read anything about the plot, but the trailers haven't seemed to suggest any such thing—though it's been a while since I saw the one from last year or whenever.

Lament of Innocence, despite getting the gameplay all wrong (Castlevania just should not be a hack and slash game, and there ought to be lots of platforming), at least looks like a Castlevania game. It has the mood, the atmosphere, the feel—at least of the Symphony of the Night era, which in turn resembled in a lot of ways the older games. And despite its innumerous flat halls and rather uninteresting level designs, it has some really pretty textures and lighting, plus the great music to go along with, so it's an experience, and one I quite enjoyed despite the somewhat dull gameplay. But Lords of Shadow? It doesn't appear to have any such gothic atmosphere. It looks like a decent game (one, however, I admit I'd likely never play if the name Castlevania weren't attached to it—I'm a bit of a loyal fanboy despite my misgivings toward the series as of the past eight years or so), but I'd prefer they just call it Lords of Shadow and lose the name Castlevania. I don't want all the newbies, like a certain friend of mine who's really excited to play it, to pick this game up and think, "This is Castlevania!" thus etching in their minds what Castlevania is all about, when it resembles nothing of the sort.

The N64 games are really kinda crummy in a lot of ways—I fully acknowledge many of their flaws—but at least they look and play like Castlevania games in 3D probably ought to. They translated the old style and feel to the 3D realm, and did a pretty good job at it. Lament of Innocence brought the mood and look over, so I consider it a Castlevania game; but Curse of Darkness didn't get the look and atmosphere, so that game doesn't really feel like a Castlevania game to me (since as I mentioned above, the PS2 games don't really play like Castlevania games).

Yeah. That's a lot of text, and in the end I'm probably conveying nothing of any significance to anyone else, but that's how I feel on the matter.

[X]

Fear not Abnormalfreak! I understand completely where you're coming from 

-X

[shelverton.]

Well, I understand where abnormalfreak is coming from too. I guess we're basically talking about the curse of the 3D action genre. There are frontrunners and followers. Castlevania used to be a frontrunner but that was ages ago. Whenever a 3D action game is successful, everyone starts to copy it. With Castlevania everyone has their own vision of how it should be pulled off in 3D, but the truth is you need to keep with the times. I agree that the N64 Castlevanias felt more like "true" successors to the Castlevania formula than the PS2 games, but the main reason why 3D Castlevania isn't revisiting the N64 formula is that those games feel extremely dated. So maybe the entire Castlevania formula is dated and won't translate very well to 3D in the year 2010, who knows?

All I know is that Konami wants to turn Castlevania into a modern action game that can compete with the likes of God of War. Luckily for me, I am a sucker for contemporary 3D action games such as God of War, Bayonetta and - to some extent - Devil May Cry. But more importantly I love Prince of Persia and Dave Cox has said that Lords of Shadow is actually more like PoP than GoW. The gameplay demo didn't look at all like PoP, but I understand there are some heavy PoP style platforming in the game. So while the combat is a lot like GoW (which I like, but I understand that some don't) I think LoS will be more than just that.

Translating the original Castlevania formula to 3D would be really difficult without changing stuff completely. A N64 style game would probably be more faithful to the series roots, but would a 3D action game without crazy stylish combos really sell? LoS is basically doing what the xbox version of Ninja Gaiden did - changing everything. I believe Castlevania needs exactly that, and I don't see how it could be done any other way.

Oh, and about LoS lacking a gothic feeling? I simply don't agree with that, but I guess it feels completely different from the IGA games. The horse back riding looked odd, but other than that I get some serious gothic vibe from the trailer and the screenshots. With a touch of fantasy, I admit that.... well, well.. time will tell...

[uzo]

Honestly I have to say. Is this really the first time mechanics have been borrowed from other games? And to add on to that, is this a bad thing?

Lets take you back to the Sony Playstation. Symphony of the Night was utterly ground breaking, even for Castlevania. It borrowed influences obviously from Metroid, and obviously from its predecessors. You can also see influences of the current era RPG games as well. Was this a bad game? Hell no! In fact it is widely regarded as the best games in the series even to this day.

So even if it happens to be a mishmash of elements from other game concepts, what the hell is wrong with having Prince of War May Cry of Shadows? It certainly cant be much less a bad thing than having Castlevania: Fantasy of the Metroid.

You can extend this even to the visuals. Symphony broke into new territory leaving the barbarians behind, and adding the elegant designs of Kojima. Now Lords of Shadow is setting pretty boys aside for somewhat barbarians again.