Castlevania Dungeon Forums
The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: SomaCruz90 on October 08, 2010, 12:53:29 AM
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Hello all! I'm one of those young whippersnappers who didn't start snapping whips until Castlevania 64. Since then I'd played all the Metroidvanias, and love most of them(SOTN >> PoR > AoS > DoS > CotM > those other two), but I never played any of the pre-SOTN style games. They are held in high regard around here, and I want to find out its all nostaglia or are these classics the real deal. Time to find out! Feel free to laugh as I suck ass!
Oh, and I "acquire" these games through..."other" means. I don't know if mentioning the word emulation is bannable offense, but I'm not posting any ROM links or anything.
Castlevania 1 ahoy!
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I don't know if mentioning the word emulation is bannable offense, but I'm not posting any ROM links or anything.
Sounds like you should read that rules thread.
But yeah, talking about emulation is a gray area, but as long as there are no ROM/ISO links, it's ok.
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Castlevania 1:
-I like how Drac just keeps his door open to his castle. "Vampire hunters, please come in!" Speaking of which, its nice to hear where all the 4875 remixs of Vampire Hunter come from.
-Holy shit, Simon Belmont is the stiffest platform character of all-time. Alucard you aint, bub.
-Aw shit, giant bat. Eat Knife, you bastard! And I STILL get a orb that heals me afterwards. What is with that?
-I think I'm seeing a pattern already. Get shitload of hearts, spam them on boss. I'm gonna keep this cross handy.
-ARRRRRRGH FUCKING MEDUSA HEADS
-oh what the fuck I barely touched those damn claw mounding things!
-LOL does Medusa even have an attack? She just sits there and gets destroyed by the whip. Kinda ironic that she's the one being frozen in place here.
-So far this game isn't that bad. Its not that good, but hey! I like this third stage music a bit. This time subweapon is badass.
-Oh man, down to my last bar of health on those mummies. LOL this game is kind a dick, but I I guess that what happens when you have the world's worst platformer protagonist on your hands.
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CV1 continued:
-Wheeeee, you gotta watch out for those falling shafts, Simon!
-LOL Frankenstein being stuck behind a block doing the moonwalk. Maybe the best thing about this game so far.
-Yikes, died twice on ol Frank. Stupid ass fleaman. Stupid ass stiff controls with the worst jump ever.
-Man, this level is hard. Damn bone throwing skeletons being an actual threat.
-Shit, ran out of lives. But I will preserve
-MWAHAHA THE HOLY WATER SPAM IS GLORIOUS! I just totally destroyed Death and the hallway before him with lots of Holy Water. LOL
-Alright, climbing staircase to Dracula time. Well that was short staircase. Nope, not grabbing Cross, this holy water is too good.
-LOL Holy Water spam to the rescue! Thank god I stocked up on hearts just in case ;)
And...that's it. Castlevania crumbles, I hope Simon got out ok then didn't show him.
Well that wasn't so hard. Or all that good. I guess if you were a kid growing up with NES this game might blew your mind, but I found it archaic and dull by the second half of a pretty damn short game. I don't have any desire to ever revisit it('cept for the remake, SCIV), and really isn't that good of a video game. BUT, it was cool seeing where all these CV traditions like three-fireball Dracula, bone throwing skeletons, Vampire Killer, etc came from.
Let's hope Simon's Quest is better!
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Call me a purist, but IMHO you should never play CV 1-4 (or Bloodlines or DracX for that matter) via emulation.
Play them on their original platforms! Even if you don't have them, they are easy to find and cheap. The games may be a challenge to buy, but worst case scenario you can find them online. Plus, there are tons of other great games for all those systems that make owning them worth it. Emulation is ok, but the original games are the best way to experience them.
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That's cool being a purist, I have a few friends who refuse the emulation route. However, I'm pretty low on money at the moment, and I don't feel like buying a PC-Engine whatever just to play Rondo of Blood.
Plus, Castlevania 1 is not worth spending money on ;D
Man, I've been watching these SCV4 videos on YouTube, that game looks BADASS and ten times what CV1 is. BUT, I gotta work my way to it!
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LOL CV1 is five bucks on Virtual Console.
Rondo of Blood is like twelve.
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Castlevania 2: Simon's Quest
-Oh hey, a town! Neat! I guess I should do my Belmont pimp walk around and impress the 8-bit 2 frames of animation ladies. Thorn whip? Yes please. Holy Water? If its anything like CV1, I'll take it! What the heck is a white crystal? Whatever, give it here.
-I'm digging the non-linear kind of approach to this Castlevania here.
-I don't know how a wood stake is gonna help, but you look like a trusting lady, besides the fact that you are walking back and forward between a pit of spikes for no particular reason.
-Oh, I use the stake here!? WTF!? I guess I should buy shit from random shopkeeps more often. MMM, Dracula's rib. I beat it smells like garlic.
-WHAT A HORRIBLE NIGHT TO HAVE A CURSE! LOLOL
-Man, Simon's legs must be killing him. So much stair climbing. No wonder he has a worse vertical leap than most professional sumo wrestlers.
-Oh, THERE'S what I'm looking for, some sacred whatchamacallit. Time to get out cursevile here.
-I'm seeing a pattern here. Talk to people, buy EVERYTHING, use random items on everything, rinse and repeat.
-Ok, I'm stuck. I know I'm not getting through that water and I don't know what blue crystal thing does. To GameFAQS.
-...ok that was just fucking stupid.
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That's cool being a purist, I have a few friends who refuse the emulation route. However, I'm pretty low on money at the moment, and I don't feel like buying a PC-Engine whatever just to play Rondo of Blood.
Have you heard of a Retro Duo (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retro_Duo?wasRedirected=true)? It plays both NES & SNES games, plus it's pretty cheap (about $40, but you could prolly find it even cheaper on ebay or some place). Some models even have Genesis support.
Or you can just hack your Wii if you have 1
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Castlevania 2: Simon's Quest
-Ok, I'm stuck. I know I'm not getting through that water and I don't know what blue crystal thing does. To GameFAQS.
-...ok that was just fucking stupid.
I was going to say, beware of the old game issue of having very, VERY vague solutions to things that are more or less impossible to figure out unless you try absolutely everything or you have something (a subscription to Nintendo Power, for example XD) that tells you what to do. There are a few places in Simon's Quest where you have to kneel with a certain object in your hand and one place where you have to talk to someone with a special item in your hand and a few places where you drop something to trigger something. And since a bunch of the villagers are lying scumbags...
Oh, one thing you should know about the leveling mechanics... Simon levels up six times, and time doesn't pass in the mansions. "After gaining levels, hearts gained from enemies in certain locations (mostly easier areas) will no longer give you any experience. A good guideline seems to be to gain one level in each of the Mansions, and two in the final Mansion."
I didn't know about this for a long time...
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Hey, Soma, this thread is great! These older CV aren't the easiest, so it's impressive to see you whip through CV1 so quickly (even if you are using GameFAQs or whatever). Yeah, CVII is the prototype for SotN in some ways, though is more of a true "quest" in the way that you have to sift through lies and obscure puzzles (the red crystal-based one and the garlic-based ones are classic).
I'm a big fan of the old-school Classic-vania. Even so, CV1 is not among my favorites. It's a solid start, but not the most memorable, IMO. Anyway, CVII is when it started to catch my notice, and between the top-notch "CVIII" and "Super Castlevania IV," it basically hit its high points. "Bloodlines" (also known as New Generation) and "Castlevania: Dracula X" (the controversial SNES game, also known as Dracula XX) were both slick, fun, parallel interpretations of Castlevania after IV with nice graphical tricks, though neither quite reached the same consistent heights as IV. Meanwhile, "Rondo of Blood" I've never been quite as fond for (even its polygonal remake), as it seemed a bit more scattered-brained to me despite its nice length and introduction of ideas that I thought were fine-tuned in Castlevania: Dracula X on the SNES. Oh, Castlevania Chronicles for the PS1 (formerly on the Sharp Computer) has a few moments, but isn't nearly as good of a CV1 reimagining/remake as IV was.
You might be interested to try out the Gameboy titles. Part 2, "Belmont's Revenge," is the best/most balanced of them, while Part 3, "Legends" is generic/bland outside of the female Belmont character, and Part 1, "The Adventure," is extremely challenging with tough controls, but interesting. Finally, "The Adventure Rebirth" for Wii Virtual Console (my favorite recent 2D CV) is a total reimagining of the first Gameboy game that is very satisfying when played on Hard Mode (which makes the levels and enemy variety/placement more interesting).
Among the old-school, my tiers generally go as follows:
Tier 1: CVIII: Dracula's Curse, Super CV IV, and CV: Dracula X (SNES)
Tier 2: CVII: Simon's Quest, Bloodlines, Belmont's Revenge, The Adventure, The Adventure Rebirth
Tier 3: Rondo of Blood, Castlevania 1, Legends, CV Chronicles
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Something tells me he's just watching Youtube. No one gets through Simon's Quest the first time so quickly without knowing a thing or two prior. Also, he didn't mention the perils of the Castle Ramparts or Clock Tower in CV1, and those usually give you more than a few game overs the first time (then again, he's using emulation so perhaps savestates are being used and abused, here).
Still a great thread, though.
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It took me years just to get through Simon's Quest before the Nintendo Game Atlas fell onto my lap. As for leveling up, I wouldn't bother. You only have a limited amount of time to finish the game in order to get the best ending. But like Crisis said, time doesn't pass by while inside the mansions.
-X
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Something tells me he's just watching Youtube. No one gets through Simon's Quest the first time so quickly without knowing a thing or two prior.
I'll be honest, GameFAQs helps! I try not to glance at it too much, but that stupid "kneel down once you have blue crystal" was silly. And CV1 isn't THAT hard, its not Contra 4 or Ninja Gaiden Black or anything. Everything has a rhythm, from the arc of the medusa heads, to the fireballs Dracula shoots out. Also, Holy Water is totally broken in that game.
Anyway, with much help from GameFAQs admittingly and some embarrassing deaths(FUCK YOU YOU STUPID CATS ARRRGH), I beat Simon's Quest last night. Sorry I didn't update with moment-to-moment, but it was a rather frustrating experience and I didn't think anyone wanted to hear me curse out their favorite game when I'm slamming my head in my desk trying to figure out Dracula's riddles and randomly whipping walls to find clues. I guess I took too long, since it said Simon died in the ending, even though he's clearly kneeling there by the grave. Whatever.
When its all said and done though, I don't know I like CV2 better than CV1. CV1 gets right down the business, a strictly linear path, some cool little tunes, and doesn't have looking like an idiot whipping random things and kneeling down for no particular reason. For the record though, I don't feel strongly about either one though. I detest the controls and makes the game much more difficult then in should be. OoE is hard, but Shanoa is fast, nimble, can change directions in the air. When I got killed in OoE, I felt it was my fault for not being good enough. When I died in CV1/2, its because Simon Belmont is the most ill-prepared and agility challenged 2d hero since Arthur from Ghosts 'n' Goblins.
I see where the traditions of Castlevania come from though. The Belmont Pimp Walk, the faceless protagonist sprites, the candles full of hearts, the white dragons, the bone throwing skeletons(who are actually a threat now), the whip action, the medusa heads, Death, the staircase to Dracula, the various sub-weapons, Vampire Killer, Bloody Tears(I thought this was gonna be in CV1, but it doesn't show up until Simon's Quest!), three-fireball shooting Dracula and then transformation. I feel Konami had this vision for a really good game in their heads, but the limitations of the NES stop it from ever reaching it.
Well...let's just see how CV3 holds up. Gotta say, I'm not looking forward to it at all if its anything like the last two, and I really just want to move on to SCV4, but I wanted to get through them all so I can say I did it.
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CV3 is one of the best. If you want better jumping controls, I suggest you take a trip to the Clock Tower of Untimely Death once you're done with the first stage instead of choosing the Mad Forest of Monsters.
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CV3 is one of the best. If you want better jumping controls, I suggest you take a trip to the Clock Tower of Untimely Death once you're done with the first stage instead of choosing the Mad Forest of Monsters.
^Trust Jorge's advice on this one: Go to the top of the clock tower for mobility assistance. ;)
...And please be sure not to skip Castlevania III. You won't regret it. It was a convergence of everything learned from 1 and 2, and despite its limitations as an NES title, it can rival any Castlevania game (It always wrestles with IV for the top spot in my mind). In fact, you might find yourself wanting to play III multiple times due to the surprising content within it. Enjoy. I can't wait to hear your thoughts on it. ...You'll see more classic enemies, tunes, and tropes introduced here, as well. The older CV featured a good deal of innovation between games.
Back to Simon's Quest...I know its puzzles were ridiculously hard and obscure...but I found that charming. I wish there was more of that in modern games, which tend to spoon-feed players a bit too much. The idea of meeting people in the graveyard with a special item (garlic) and getting something in return (upgraded daggers) was kind of revived a bit in Castlevania 64 with Rosa in the flower garden. Heck, the ambitious idea of night and day cycles from the N64 titles comes from Simon's Quest, too. I'm still hoping for the magic crystals to make a return to Castlevania. It can be a bit more intuitive, of course, but I still want those brain-teasers and shocking environmental twists (drained lakes, tornado lifts, etc). And speaking of the stiff controls and stairs in early Castlevania...it can be unfair at times, yes, but I think the ninja-like maneuverability brought in around SotN with floaty double-jumps and air boosts and such, and the character just floating over the stair sprites instead of actually interacting with them, was too much on the opposite end of extremes and cheapens the realism/challenge. Lastly, I'm sure you noticed, but Simon's Quest gave us the inventory, the flame whip, the crystal sub-weapon, NPCs, Carmilla (via mask), and werewolves just to name a few. It must be really interesting to see the series evolving in order like this.
And congrats on mentioning Arthur from GnG. You are well-versed in the classics (though Super Ghouls n Ghosts SNES is the special entry in that series that really makes it sing). ;D
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Talking about Castlevania 2 I had a book with codes and walkthroughs three years prior I played this game.
And while I had basic idea how I should play this game, some of the things weren't written in this book, so I need to figure them on my own.
Like how (and where) to use stakes. And most importantly how to get to the Mansion with Dracula's Eye. Book did mension something about showing Dracula's heart to the boatman and it added that I shouldn't give heart to him. For quite a time I was confused since there was no way how I can "give him this heart". I figured it out eventually...one year after I initially played this game.
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And congrats on mentioning Arthur from GnG. You are well-versed in the classics (though Super Ghouls n Ghosts SNES is the special entry in that series that really makes it sing). ;D
Too bad he was mentioning him in a derogatory sense.
The controls take a bit of getting used to, but they're fine for the type of game that it is.
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My favorite game in the G'n'G series is the recent Ultimate G'n'G. Arthur still isn't the best platformer in the world, but the difficulty on the whole has turned down just a tad and seems less built around your glaring limitations.
Castlevania III: Dracula's Curse:
-And we are off. Back to CV1 style, even slightly edited CV1 sprite with two frames of animation. I know I heard this song before, was it in Portrait of Ruin or one of the other Metroidanias?
-arrrgh Medusa heads. Its so much bullshit that I decide to climb stairs and then randomly spawning Medusa head from nowhere hits me, and I can't do shit about it.
-LOL just on this right block and own this boss here. Aw sweet, alternate paths! I'll take Jorge's advice and go to the Untimely Death route, even if that doesn't sound very enticing!
-Huh, I know I heard this song before too.
-Hey, swinging pendulums! What would an absurdly huge, intricate clock tower level be without those?
-And of course the Medusa heads. Arrrgh, just let me climb in peace! Fuck you flying heads, TIME STOP mwahaha. Totally useless on boss fights, but a live saver in the levels!
-Who the heck is this dude? He's like that wall-crawling guy from Portrait of Ruin, lol. I was expecting Death when I got up here, oh well. This one clock tower level was better than any level from the past two games. Wait, what? OH SHIT IT IS THAT WALL-CRAWLING GUY, neat.
-Oh god I'm fucking Spider-man.
-Well I don't particularly care for backtracking through the whole stage again, even if it is a good level and Spider-man here makes everything better.
-Thank God for the Axe sub-weapon on these damn owls. Why do OWLS have to attack me, what did I do to them?
-This is good stuff here. I find myself switching between fake-Simon for combat and Spider-man for platforming.
-Oh god, more multiple paths. Which way do I go? I heard Alucard is in this game, did I miss him?
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You need to head toward the caves to meet Alucard.
The song in the first level is "Beginning." It's the third-most-remade tune in the series, behind Vampire Killer and Bloody Tears. You might recognize it from the Julius Mode of DoS. The tune in the Clocktower is "Clockwork" IIRC, and you probably recognize it from CotM's clocktower.
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Head towards the end of the forest for the statue graveyard, and someone to play as other than Alucard.
Note that you cannot have multiple partners. You will have to give up Grant to get anyone else. You've been warned.
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It took me years just to get through Simon's Quest before the Nintendo Game Atlas fell onto my lap. As for leveling up, I wouldn't bother. You only have a limited amount of time to finish the game in order to get the best ending. But like Crisis said, time doesn't pass by while inside the mansions.
-X
'Use laurels whenever you can justify it' was my answer to everything when I was a kid. XD
I didn't think anyone wanted to hear me curse out their favorite game when I'm slamming my head in my desk trying to figure out Dracula's riddles and randomly whipping walls to find clues.
Dracula's eyeball, dude. It lets you see the clues. XD
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Note that you cannot have multiple partners. You will have to give up Grant to get anyone else. You've been warned.
Aw man, I can't just give up fake-Simon? Screw that mess then.
-Aw yeah, swamp level.
-Cool, those little ghost things IGA sees fit to throw into every new game!
-Whoo, down to one health bar when I beat Twin Giant Bat things. And I used Fake-Simon the whole time!
-Whoa acid burning from the ceiling. Oh shit, that guy is on FIRE. Let me help him out with some Holy Water.
-Yeeees I knew waiting for that acid to burn out the floor would lead to something good, 1up get secret door whee. I can't see how anyone could put this game below CV1.
-I really like this dual paths thing goign on in this cavern area.
-Oh shit, Dracula already!? I hoping this isn't the end of the game!
-Oh no, its actually Alucard. Sorry Al, you aint got Spidey's hops.
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^Uh, sorry about how long that reply took, I actually got caught up with the game and just stop typing. But I figured I might as well post those impressions. I think I'm on the last level now.
-Oh shit, Dracula got a WAND! Dude's a magician now! Too bad this fire is easy to dodge and my whip is so very long(sexually suggestive joke #1!)
-Oh god, how many transformations do you have!? I knew I should have stocked up on my hearts for this Axe!
-Annnnnd finish! And of course watch as Castlevania falls to the green. This credits music is pretty sweet.
Hey, I'm actually glad I didn't skip CV3, its easily the best of the NES trilogy. From level design, to playable characters, multiple paths, music...its just the best game there. I wouldn't put it above any of my favorite Metroidvanias or anything, but it stands head and shoulders above its NES counterparts.
SCV4 ahoy!
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^Uh, sorry about how long that reply took, I actually got caught up with the game and just stop typing. But I figured I might as well post those impressions. I think I'm on the last level now.
-Oh shit, Dracula got a WAND! Dude's a magician now! Too bad this fire is easy to dodge and my whip is so very long(sexually suggestive joke #1!)
-Oh god, how many transformations do you have!? I knew I should have stocked up on my hearts for this Axe!
-Annnnnd finish! And of course watch as Castlevania falls to the green. This credits music is pretty sweet.
Hey, I'm actually glad I didn't skip CV3, its easily the best of the NES trilogy. From level design, to playable characters, multiple paths, music...its just the best game there. I wouldn't put it above any of my favorite Metroidvanias or anything, but it stands head and shoulders above its NES counterparts.
SCV4 ahoy!
Hey, in CVIII, did you see/play as "Sypha"--the blue-cloaked magic woman that every magic-based woman vampire hunter (including Charlotte) is based on? She had fire, ice (can freeze water hazards into platforms), and lightning spells. Anyway, changing paths and characters (you can even choose to go alone with Trevor) gives CVIII a lot of replay value. The sheer variety and length of levels and choices is awesome. There are lots of interactive scenarios, not sure if you saw them all, like the flooding level post-Bone Dragon King boss fight. For my money, it's the best branching path game in the series. Love the map presentation. That first boss you fought appeared again in Harmony of Dissonance, by the way. And Grant, Alucard, Sypha, and Trevor...that group sort of meets again in SotN in the arena battle, if you recall. Alucard's introduction of transforming into a bat came from here, too. Oh, and the famous Ghost Ship level seen in Rondo and Legacy of Darkness got its start here in a big way. In that same level, there was the advent of the skeleton swordsmen who hold their skull heads. They are in other games, including SotN's library area.
I agree that III is infinitely better than CV1. Hard to compare to II...though I'd say III has more fun replay value. In scope, CVIII is still ambitious even by today's standards. But CVIII is no joke on challenge. Maybe you took a path that bypassed some of the harder levels (like the one with the falling blocks that make a path upward). But that last level with Drac and the lack of continue points, that's really hard (well, more so without Grant, though).
Anyway, Super Castlevania IV is the game that if someone on the street asked me to have them play one game that defined Castlevania--as much as I love III and Dracula X (SNES) and find great charm in Bloodlines and the N64 titles--Super CV IV would be it. While some games have individual elements that are better than it, Super CV IV is probably the most rounded and eye-popping.
PS: To me, if you combined the controls and atmosphere of IV with the scope of variety and branching map-paths in III (with perhaps a dash of the "Item Crashes" in Dracula X/Bloodlines), you'd have the best 2D Castlevania ever. ;D (As for 3D, you'd have to take the previous and add the villages and puzzles from II, as well as the survival-horror/suspense elements from the N64 titles).
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To finish the entire NES trilogy in just a couple days is incredible. I still can't beat level 5 of CV :-\
I personally think that CV3 is one of the hardest games in the series, so you are probably going to crush SCV4 when you get to it.
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I several embarrassing deaths I didn't want to mention. The worst one was in CV3 when in the clock tower, and you know how the screen scrolls up so what was once platform is now bottom pit? I jumped right on a Medusa head flying AWAY from me somehow, fly backward right between the platform and the bottomless area. It was bad news >:(
Oh, and GameFAQs helps!
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Castlevania IV should mostly be a breeze for you after I-III. (I am curious, what do you think of Castlevania 64/Legacy of Darkness? (since it sounded like those were your first games)
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Castlevania IV should mostly be a breeze for you after I-III. (I am curious, what do you think of Castlevania 64/Legacy of Darkness? (since it sounded like those were your first games)
I kinda liked the N64 games. I mean, they had Frankenstein chasing you with a chainsaw through a hedge maze garden, it couldn't have been TOO bad. But I remember the camera and controls being crap, and the fact that it looks so ugly today kills any interest in returning to it.
Anyway, beat SCIV today. I'll try a little different and break it down into pros/cons:
Pros:
+When it comes down to Classicvania, this is the best one. It takes the original games, injects steroids, and lets it fly.
+Solid soundtrack
+pretty good art direction
+Lengthy for a Classicvania
Cons:
-Swinging isn't that fun. It doesn't help that I played this almost directly after the incredible, seamless swinging of Bionic Commando Rearmed, but SCV4's swinging is slow, rigid, and gimmicky. The Mode 7 swinging room was little more than an excuse to "wow" gamers with its rotation effects.
-I'm still not a huge fan of Classivania's style of play. Yeah, its more challenging than the Metroidvanias, but that's because Alucard and co are so nimble and smooth. Simon still feels like he has cement blocks tied to his ankles and still has a god awful jump. When I jump and land in a bottomless pit because Simon can only hop 6 inches from the ground, its incredibly frustrating and the opposite of fun
-The 8-direction whip actually works AGAINST the slow, methodical feel of the Classicvanias. it reduced what were dangerous enemies that required a steady approach and careful tactics to surmount to rote moving targets, since most enemies couldn't get around it. And without that challenge, what was an otherwise necessarily slow and steady approach lost that meaning and often became a pointlessly slow lurch. Congratulations Konami, you totally missed the point.
Overall, I did enjoy SCV4 more then the others(although its ranked closer with CV3 than the others), but I have no idea why people think this is the best of the series. All I can think of is the "Final Fantasy 7 Effect", where I play it see an ugly as hell, poorly-translated, above average RPG with God awful pacing. But perhaps had I been there when it was coming out, I would have fell in love with it. Not that I'm saying people who love SCV4 are blinded by nostalgia, but I vividly remember after beating Dracula and staring at Simon as he watches Castlevania fall, and I just couldn't help but think, "Why do people think this is a great video game?"
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"Why do people think this is a great video game?"
It's probably one of those 'guess you had to be there things'. Like when you complained about the mode7. Yeah, they were trying to wow you back then. Guess what though, that's what they do today. A large part of this hobby is about "oooh the pretty". Why else would you think the graphics such crap? It's because you have in your mind references to game that to you look amazing. But, that's how we all are, welcome to the club ;) . Back then, the mode7 was in fact mind blowing, as was a lot of CVIV (music was some of best in series imo).
Admittedly though, the graphics by todays standards (even 2D) are fairly poor. There have been some games that I've regretted going back to because they didn't live up to how great I remembered them. Many things were drawn pixel by pixel back then, and it shows. But, that is also part of the charm I guess (at least for those of us that grew up through it). It's cool to see what they could accomplish within the limitations they had (and CVIII did have really good platforming, even if it was cheap at times - freakin medusa heads). I know it's odd thinking that kids were so wow'ed by that at one time, but then we were both wowed by CV64 when it first came out, and that game is fug-ugly now. Anyone ever notice how 3D game don't age as well as 2D? I wonder if it has to do with one being more akin to more traditional art (drawing and painting), and the other being more of an attempt visually to simulate the real world.
Uh, moving right along. You should take RichterB's adive and try another playthrough of CVIII, but this time use Sypha. Surprisingly, she can make some of the bosses easier due how powerful her magic is. Alucard is fun too, though he sucks for damage, but he can shoot in 3 directions and turn into a bat. His bat form helps, but it's not really needed. To get the best ending you have to get all three in one game, Grant > Sypha > then Alucard last. Doesn't really do much else other than show them all standing on the cliff. And I think Trevor grabs Sypha ass.
Anyhoo, even though I grew up with the old games, surprisingly enough, I think SotN is probably my favorite, with CVIV and Rondo tied, CVIII next. Oh, and Lords of Shadow is great.
(try the original NES Batman game - the one based on the movie with Jack Nicholson as Joker)
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Personally, I don't think the controls of the classicvanias should be all that criticized when compared to the Metroidvanias. imo the later metroidvanias (the DS ones, mainly) have started to feel much too floaty with little sense of weight. And besides that, the classicvanias have their level designs built around the characters' limited abilities. It rarely feels cheap that you're playing a guy who weighs a tonne. You can see it this in how easy the games got when they started having freer controls without modifying the enemy designs to adapt with this new ease in player control.
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It's probably one of those 'guess you had to be there things'. Like when you complained about the mode7. Yeah, they were trying to wow you back then. Guess what though, that's what they do today. A large part of this hobby is about "oooh the pretty". Why else would you think the graphics such crap? It's because you have in your mind references to game that to you look amazing. But, that's how we all are, welcome to the club ;) . Back then, the mode7 was in fact mind blowing, as was a lot of CVIV (music was some of best in series imo).
Exactly. I remember people's reaction to Rondo of Blood's graphics - those were insane for the time. F-Zero looks like a seizure-inducing mess today, but back then people would come to your place to see you play.
As today we notice the polygon counts and the incredible textures of LoS, back then people were amazed by how "three dimensional" the mushrooms looked in the latest SNES Mario game.
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You're right about 3d not aging as well as the 2d ones. Games like Chrono Trigger and Yoshi's Island still look amazing, while PS1 titles like Final Fantasy 7 and Tomb Raider look totally awful and primitive. Similarly, games that focused on great art direction like Wind Waker or Viewtiful Joe are still wonderful looking titles, and will probably stay that way for years to come. Fluid sprite animation is always impressive to me, no matter what year or console its on. I could watch SotN's Alucard walk all day.
And the problem I had with the Mode 7 room wasn't that it tried to wow the gamers, but that seem to be its only focus. The only gameplay you really get is hanging awkwardly with your whip and easily smacking some medusa heads. I thought they could have done something really special and innovative with that, but it falls short. Similarly, the rotating barrel room had the same feeling for me. Yeah, the background is moving, but it doesn't affect you one bit. You still just moving on an incredibly linear path left to right, smacking a few skeletons. Excuse me as I stifle a yawn. I hoped we would get something like Yoshi's Island Mode 7 effects, where if taste one of the Fuzzys, the screen starts become disorienting and crazy, and platforming becomes trickier.
And its true that the Classicvanias are built around your limitations which I guess gets more to the core of why I don't particularly love any of their entries, in that I don't really like that slow, methodical pacing and feel. I'm adventuring through Castlevania, this should be exciting! But instead its a slow plodding walk through Dracula's minions.
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You also need to understand that Super Castlevania IV was a launch period title for the SNES (Both the console and game being released in 1991) when the Super FX technology was extremely new and not explored to it's potential yet
Yoshi's Island did not come out until 4 full years later until 1995 towards the very end of the SNES life when there was plenty of time for software developers to explore the possibilities of the hardware and what could be done with it.
That's like comparing the primitive 3D of a launch PSX title like Tekken 1 or Ridge Racer to something to much later such as Metal Gear Solid or Gran Turismo 2.
This can be used for nearly any console by example in that launch titles not looking nearly as impressive or being refined as late gen titles for a particular console.
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^That is correct. At least it has an excuse for being so lackluster :p
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I think the creator of this thread is just acting stupidly picky. Why not pick on the lack of buttons on the NES (oh no it has two buttons only, how cheap) or the lack of colors on the tiles (excuse me while I yawn at the three-color tile palette).
I think rather than ripping on the games a la Angry VideoGame Nerd (excuse me while I yawn at your attempt... see? I can do a mild attempt at having contempt too), you should focus on the games with the mindset that existed at the games' creation. Like someone previously said, of course Mode7 is going to look primitive by today's standards, but back then it was the closest to seeing '3D' environments, etc.
Have some respect for the titles you're running through.
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I think the creator of this thread is just acting stupidly picky. Why not pick on the lack of buttons on the NES (oh no it has two buttons only, how cheap) or the lack of colors on the tiles (excuse me while I yawn at the three-color tile palette).
I think rather than ripping on the games a la Angry VideoGame Nerd (excuse me while I yawn at your attempt... see? I can do a mild attempt at having contempt too), you should focus on the games with the mindset that existed at the games' creation. Like someone previously said, of course Mode7 is going to look primitive by today's standards, but back then it was the closest to seeing '3D' environments, etc.
Have some respect for the titles you're running through.
This is an idiotic way to look at what I'm doing. Now its MY fault because I find faults in games you see as great(nay, Masterpieces)? Please.
Yes the little Mode 7 thing might have been cool in oh say, 1992. But this is 2010, and now it looks archaic and gimmicky. The best video games stand the test of time. I can play Sonic 3 and Knuckles(a game that came out one year later in '93, btw) today and have a lot of fun with it. Between its excellent level design, great mix of platforming-exploration-utilizing the physics engine, awesome music, and perfect controls, it stands up to anything that comes out today. Quite frankly, I don't think SCV4 does.
Lets go with another NES example, 1988's Mega Man 2. I love that game, even today. Mega Man doesn't have hops like Mario, he carries weight to the touch, but he's just floaty enough that all his jumps are managable and just the right side of challenging. The music is awesome, and because the game values art direction above all, it still looks great in that retro-chic way.
MegaMan 2 - Bubble Man (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlYPcmx_zXM#) (Bubble Man stage. Note the awesome music and fun art direction)
Or we can just stick with the Castlevania series and point towards Symphony of the Night. The odd PS1-3d graphical object aside, that game STILL looks incredible over ten years later, has an amazing soundtrack, it's incredibly addicting, and oozes atmosphere from every pore.
So you see that I have no problem loving other old school games, other NES games, and other Castlevania games. The fact that I see faults or that I'm not enjoying the Classicvanias is NOT an issue of respect or some misplaced new age idealism.
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This is an idiotic way to look at what I'm doing. Now its MY fault because I find faults in games you see as great(nay, Masterpieces)? Please.
Yes the little Mode 7 thing might have been cool in oh say, 1992. But this is 2010, and now it looks archaic and gimmicky. The best video games stand the test of time. I can play Sonic 3 and Knuckles(a game that came out one year later in '93, btw) today and have a lot of fun with it. Between its excellent level design, great mix of platforming-exploration-utilizing the physics engine, awesome music, and perfect controls, it stands up to anything that comes out today. Quite frankly, I don't think SCV4 does.
Thats not fair. When you examine a person in history class, you have to see the world through their eyes to understand their actions and the way they interacted with the world. Its the same way when you play an old video game. You should approach it as if "this is still 1991" and it will be a lot more fun. Yes, some games do stand the test of time, but when you examine a game from this perspective you can see how far ahead these games were when they came out.
And SCV4 is a masterpiece. Did you listen to the soundtrack? The atmosphere it creates, the slow build up as you approach the castle, the sense of awe when you are walking through the treasury, and the epic feeling when Simon's Theme kicks in when you are killing Dracula, and so on makes this game a classic. No Castlevania game before or since has created atmosphere as superbly as SCV4. Not even Symphony.
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This is an idiotic way to look at what I'm doing. Now its MY fault because I find faults in games you see as great(nay, Masterpieces)? Please.
Yes the little Mode 7 thing might have been cool in oh say, 1992. But this is 2010, and now it looks archaic and gimmicky. The best video games stand the test of time. I can play Sonic 3 and Knuckles(a game that came out one year later in '93, btw) today and have a lot of fun with it. Between its excellent level design, great mix of platforming-exploration-utilizing the physics engine, awesome music, and perfect controls, it stands up to anything that comes out today. Quite frankly, I don't think SCV4 does.
Lets go with another NES example, 1988's Mega Man 2. I love that game, even today. Mega Man doesn't have hops like Mario, he carries weight to the touch, but he's just floaty enough that all his jumps are managable and just the right side of challenging. The music is awesome, and because the game values art direction above all, it still looks great in that retro-chic way.
MegaMan 2 - Bubble Man (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlYPcmx_zXM#) (Bubble Man stage. Note the awesome music and fun art direction)
Or we can just stick with the Castlevania series and point towards Symphony of the Night. The odd PS1-3d graphical object aside, that game STILL looks incredible over ten years later, has an amazing soundtrack, it's incredibly addicting, and oozes atmosphere from every pore.
So you see that I have no problem loving other old school games, other NES games, and other Castlevania games. The fact that I see faults or that I'm not enjoying the Classicvanias is NOT an issue of respect or some misplaced new age idealism.
And this is where nostalgia factor comes in.
I don't think SotN is as incredible as you say, despite how much I enjoy it. Then again, this could be because I bypassed it when it first came out because I wanted a N64. I see a game that has a nice retro feel, and was good for it's time, but I can spot the things I don't like about SotN imagery.
One, the sound effects sound extremely digitalized and dated. The music is wonderful, but the sound effects have an extremely electric feel.
Two, the graphics seem to be attempting a realism that probably looked amazing back then, but I can see how dated they are. Just compare Alucard's sprite to Soma's DoS sprite. The systems are about the same power, but Alucard is much more pixelized. Then again, some things aren't, but you have some Rondo sprites thrown in there, and they clash with the higher-res background. Sometimes some things just look a bit confused because they try to overdo themselves, and then there's Galamoth who, with the whole shadow puppet movement style, can look a bit cheesy.
I know this is extremely nitpicky, but that's the point. I'm not looking at the game from the lens of the era in which it was played. Of course SotN is going to LOOK better, than SCIV, because it was made on a more powerful system/at a later time. I mean, I personally think that PoR looks better than SotN.
And I agree with Harrycombs. SCIV has the greatest atmosphere in the series bar none.
EDIT: I've never liked how the NES-SNES Megamans looked. I didn't like the style until it hit the PS1.
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And its true that the Classicvanias are built around your limitations which I guess gets more to the core of why I don't particularly love any of their entries, in that I don't really like that slow, methodical pacing and feel. I'm adventuring through Castlevania, this should be exciting! But instead its a slow plodding walk through Dracula's minions.
You'd probably enjoy it more if you changed your mindset about it. It isn't so much about freedom as it is about strategy. It's methodical because of the tight level design. There isn't a wealth of options of what to do, but it isn't necessary. The old games are the opposite of the newer games who tend rely on excess. I would say it better suits the mood of a lone man against an entire countryside of monsters. To brave them all, a warrior has to be precise.
But yeah, Super Castlevania IV is all about subtlety in its atmosphere with its light jazz touches meshing with the choking darkness, barring the Mode 7 rooms. I would suggest you try playing it again to get a better feel for it. But to each their own.
Though, e105beta, Soma's DoS sprite really pales to Alucard. All the new animations of Soma are just wonky and unnatural compared to Alucard's. Soma's shading is much more muddier and worse at suggesting form. Of course, Soma's sprite is probably the best out of the DS protagonists. The rest of just horrible in color choices, shading, and animation. When it comes to pixel art, it's better to be reserved than use lots of colors for crisp clarity. SoTN still has the best technical spritework and background work compared to all the later DS titles. And the DS titles all use some pretty horrible modular/shadow puppet movement too. There are no higher-res backgrounds in SoTN so I don't see the clash with the Rondo sprites. If anything, that's more apparent in the DS titles mixing non-pixel work with pixel work, and having much more drastic stylistic choices in color and shading in the newer sprites compared to the reused sprites. The graphics in SoTN are pretty much the most consistent you can find in a Metroidvania. It's also a lot more crisp and refined than SCVIV's sprites anyway (though one can argue that the muddy shading of SCVIV's sprites actually embellished on its atmosphere). SoTN pretty much sports the best technical graphics when it comes to pixel art in Castlevania.
The physics in SoTN were arguably the best as well. All of the DS protagonists have this sort of gliding/slide feeling to their walks. There's really too little weight to them. Even the enemies have more weight in SoTN, though that might be due more to enemy placement than actual coding of the enemies themselves.
also i talked too much about sotn ; - ;
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This is an idiotic way to look at what I'm doing. Now its MY fault because I find faults in games you see as great(nay, Masterpieces)? Please.
Way to completely miss the point.
It's not that a game has faults. It's just that the way you portray the faults is incredibly exaggerated ala AVGN to make your points border on the point of hyperbole. Seems like a cheap way to generate shock factor. And, in some odd ways, it could even constitute as 'flamebait' in this forum.
As other people have mentioned, it might be better if you played with at least a knowledge of what was going on at the time the game was created, and the limitations around such a time. To portray instances in games which, at the time, were revolutionary leaps in both graphics processing as well as overall aesthetic graphical prowess as 'gimmicks' just because they were eye candy at the time and are not eye candy now, shows a great deal of ignorance.
There is such a thing as "The rule of cool" at which something is placed in the game because it was cool at the time to have it. Yes, the spinning corridor does nothing to the gameplay at the platforming layer but 1. at the time, it was cool, 2. at the time, it was unprecedented and DID indeed give the players of that time a dizzying feeling as they played, and 3. it certainly did not take away from the game.
I'm not telling you to like the games, and I'm not telling you to see them through rosy nostalgia-glasses (which make games seem 'good' no matter what). I'm beseeching you to see the games within the context and scope of their time period as you make your observations.
Otherwise, you're just trolling a game for your own amusement and for attention. And I will not tolerate that here.
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Finding faults in the games is only natural. What's more baffling is your inability to put them into context. If you're gonna walk into a 20 years old game and complain about the graphics, something is off in your entire project.
Take them as they are. Personally I consider Rondo a great experience even by today's standard. I'd take Rondo over the entire post SotN production personally.
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Though, e105beta, Soma's DoS sprite really pales to Alucard. All the new animations of Soma are just wonky and unnatural compared to Alucard's. Soma's shading is much more muddier and worse at suggesting form. Of course, Soma's sprite is probably the best out of the DS protagonists. The rest of just horrible in color choices, shading, and animation. When it comes to pixel art, it's better to be reserved than use lots of colors for crisp clarity. SoTN still has the best technical spritework and background work compared to all the later DS titles. And the DS titles all use some pretty horrible modular/shadow puppet movement too. There are no higher-res backgrounds in SoTN so I don't see the clash with the Rondo sprites. If anything, that's more apparent in the DS titles mixing non-pixel work with pixel work, and having much more drastic stylistic choices in color and shading in the newer sprites compared to the reused sprites. The graphics in SoTN are pretty much the most consistent you can find in a Metroidvania. It's also a lot more crisp and refined than SCVIV's sprites anyway (though one can argue that the muddy shading of SCVIV's sprites actually embellished on its atmosphere). SoTN pretty much sports the best technical graphics when it comes to pixel art in Castlevania.
While Alucard's sprite animation is better (what with the subtle animations like when he stands up straight) I find Soma's actual sprite to be a touch more refined. When I compare the two side by side, while Alucard's sprite may be a bit more bold, I find it's detail to be a bit lacking. His head annoys me. Also, I just like Jonathan's sprite better than either of them. That's not to say SotN doesn't sport a higher consistency of sprite work quality, just that the best sprites in the DS games were better than the best sprites in SotN. Albeit, this technicality argument has little to do with the point I'm trying to make. Saying that the DS games had some things worse than SotN is irrelevant.
My point was that I don't believe that SotN still looks incredible. Sure, it has that great elegant atmosphere, but SCIV also has that great dark spooky atmosphere, and I don't look at either of them and still go "Whoah, that looks cool." It's because both of them are dated. Obviously SotN is going to look better than SCIV because it was made on a more powerful system, and Mode7 WAS awesome when SCIV was created, so SomaCruz90 knocking that is stupid.
As for backgrounds, just compare:
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aussie-nintendo.com%2Fup%2Fnews%2Frondo01.png&hash=dd6b770921868783b0e930c484a0057af1a52631)
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.videogamesblogger.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2007%2F03%2Fcastlevania-symphony-of-the-night-xbox-live-arcade-screenshot.jpg&hash=468c106868fb3b2f18577aa522057399425b7cf5)
Dracula was transposed well into SotN, but some things just didn't mesh for me.
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Thats not fair. When you examine a person in history class, you have to see the world through their eyes to understand their actions and the way they interacted with the world. Its the same way when you play an old video game. You should approach it as if "this is still 1991" and it will be a lot more fun. Yes, some games do stand the test of time, but when you examine a game from this perspective you can see how far ahead these games were when they came out.
And SCV4 is a masterpiece. Did you listen to the soundtrack? The atmosphere it creates, the slow build up as you approach the castle, the sense of awe when you are walking through the treasury, and the epic feeling when Simon's Theme kicks in when you are killing Dracula, and so on makes this game a classic. No Castlevania game before or since has created atmosphere as superbly as SCV4. Not even Symphony.
I still think examining games as if today was 1991 isn't a good way to go about things. I have several favorite movies from the 1960s, and I don't have to make excuses for them. Same thing for my favorite books, and most of my favorite comic books come from the 1980s. I just don't think it ok to just look past things like presentation and sound when you're experiencing something.
And I listened to the soundtrack during the game. There's a couple stand-out tracks, but it wouldn't even make my top 25 16-bit game soundtracks.
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First a few notes: skeletons do burst out of the background at you during the first Mode7 stage (the one that I've thought perhaps the creators intended to be a fallen, rolling tower interior), and when you are younger or careless, those medusa heads in the second Mode7 area can easily knock you to your doom in the spike pits below. Mode7 still tickles me today just because how visually wild a concept it is and how rare it is to see in 2D games. (Bloodlines uses some variation of the tech interestingly, as well).
Now, one thing neat about the care of IV is the "layering" of the levels' art (sometimes you even go into the background). But basically there are all sorts of things happening in the foreground and background, whether its simply pillars leading up to the castle entrance or ghosts in the treasury. The levels feel alive with lots of movement, like the rising fence/gates in the first level. I don't think SotN did a lot of that, as far as foregrounds and backgrounds interacting with the main playing field.
And as for atmosphere, I point to the build-up to the finale. The fight with Slogra, Gaibon, and then visual presentation of Death and his room, with the alteration of the music, and culminating in the stair climb is just chilling. (Slogra and Gaibon were then turned into basically jokes by SotN and further entries). I think this game's art direction (IV) stands the test of time, personally.
Granted, the 8-direction whip did make the game easier, but I think IV had areas that really highlighted the usefulness of such an ability and made it play into the game design. (Perhaps you'll be pleased to know that Bloodlines, Rondo, and Dracula X decided to limit the whip again to one degree or another after IV).
The old games are the opposite of the newer games who tend rely on excess. I would say it better suits the mood of a lone man against an entire countryside of monsters. To brave them all, a warrior has to be precise.
Exactly. As was noted, the newer games are getting more and more "floaty," which isn't any more unrealistic that the cement shoes--in fact, it's more unrealistic and feels goofy (and less strategically precise). It mirrors the game design, which is also more meandering and floaty than "exciting." All the hit points stuff makes it feel less like I'm feeling the hits on enemies. Also, Alucard's walk is fine, but it always seems like a forward Moon Walk to me, and in the intro, his run is just the same as his walk, aided by the speeding background. (I don't care; just saying).
I agree about the 2D vs. 3D and aging...and yet, I can often look past that for the sake of the depth, art design, or ambition of a project. Heck, all that graphical fog in CV64 HELPS the mood! ;D It's the same with the historical limitations of the early games. I know what they were trying to execute, and for the time of their execution, they more than passed the test. As for tile sets, Dracula X and Bloodlines largely got rid of that while Rondo generally kept it.
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I wanted to add that, maybe I'm crazy, but the size and bold look of older sprites like IV's Simon and Richter look a lot better to me than anything from the GBA/DS era, which always frustrates me. Rebirth's Chris is in the ballpark, but the rest seem too understated and small to me.
And don't get me wrong, SotN is no slouch for a game, but I think it was best as a one-off, and certainly should have not continued beyond Aria of Sorrow, despite Dawn's improved graphics and Portrait's somehow amusing adventure. (I don't know what to say about OoE, as I have not played it yet). I think the largely unexplored Simon's Quest style has more room to grow than the Metroidvania style.
Anyway, I think Dave Cox said something important when he said gamers get to know too much about games before hand, but also it should be added that new games don't often provide enough opportunities to bring one's imagination to the game. That's more important than straight realism in my mind.
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Well, I think my point is that SoTN tends to exercise superior technical skill (in shading and etc, not color count) in its animation and backgrounds. I personally feel that technical achievements like those can work better in making something stand the test of time than technological gimmicks like Mode7. N-Not to diss Super Castlevania IV. I feel it's a lot more cohesive with its sprite work and backgrounds than SoTN, though I don't find the SoTN backgrounds to really clash with the Rondo sprites. The backgrounds are these lush, magnificent technical achievements in pixel art. I mean, it's like arguing that the backgrounds in fighting games like KoF are stylistically different from the fighter sprites because of the large difference in detail. There's a bit of leeway to be played here. Because otherwise, not even the Dracula X backgrounds can be considered consistent with the Rondo sprites with its muted colors and higher details. I guess any stylistic difference I would agree with is how some of the colors on Rondo sprites are far too saturated for SoTN's duller backgrounds.
Though personally, I find Rondo's backgrounds, while being lively, to be really tiled and empty compared with other CV titles. I guess it's because of the limitations, but the colors are pretty bad too.
I am still not sure how you can find any of the DS sprites better than the SoTN ones. They're really clumsily shaded and colored in parts, imo. Because I know I'm getting off topic but can you show examples.
Don't get me wrong though. Atmospherically, the backgrounds of SCVIV can totally beat SoTN a lot of times though. The muddiness of the backgrounds work in favor of it, giving it this tinge of dirtiness. I love how sullen and decayed everything looks. For an early SNES game, it has surprisingly efficient tilework and it flows very smoothly. It's quirky to see how, say, the backgrounds in Dracula X, while being more technically proficient, fail to provide an atmosphere to the same extent.
I'm not really arguing against your point. I have no idea what I'm doing, actually. ; - ;
RichterB:
The Alucard run at the start I can understand since it was a one time thing. I'm personally feel more gimped at the failure to create a new batch of Richter sprites. imo those are the only ones that really clash with SoTN's aesthetic. I actually prefer Simon and Richter to the DS ones too. I mean, both of them move pretty awkwardly, but so do the DS ones. The DS ones are just smoother, but I like the extra heaviness that Simon's sprite seems to have. It compliments his pace. With Richter, I thought the lighter shading reflected how much lighter he was. I can't say I'm that fond of his colors though. I didn't really like Chris though. I thought his animation was pretty clunky, the worst so far, besides maybe Albus (adsfadsf) and I disliked the shading.
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Well you make all good points. I pretty much agree with you on everything but the DS and Rondo sprites.
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The fact that I see faults or that I'm not enjoying the Classicvanias is NOT an issue of respect or some misplaced new age idealism.
Let me put it this way. What you're doing is the equivalent of an atheist running into a church and attempting to start a debate. The people here have a literal love for this series, especially those who started at it's roots. You're free to not like the older titles, just tread carefully and try to understand. Just as they are blinded by love to "how bad" the gameplay and graphics are, so to are you blinded by your experiences.
For me, even today the mode7 in CV4 isn't gimmicky, but understandably to you it seems as if it is.
Perspective lad. Perspective.
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I still think examining games as if today was 1991 isn't a good way to go about things. I have several favorite movies from the 1960s, and I don't have to make excuses for them. Same thing for my favorite books, and most of my favorite comic books come from the 1980s. I just don't think it ok to just look past things like presentation and sound when you're experiencing something.
And I listened to the soundtrack during the game. There's a couple stand-out tracks, but it wouldn't even make my top 25 16-bit game soundtracks.
First, you really do need to look at things from their time period. For instance, you mentioned movies. The Soviet film Battleship Potemkin from 1921 is one of the greatest films of all time, but you still have to view it from its time period to see how ground breaking it is (for instance, that movie was the first to use a montage, something like that being new is hard to grasp in this day and age). SCV4 is the same in many ways, especially with its use of mode7. Look at how Symphony tried to impress us with the 3D backgrounds every once in a while and with the few 3D enemies it had.
Also, if you were looking for great tracks in SCV4, you were going about the soundtrack wrong. Its great because of how cohesive it is and how it fits perfectly with the environments.
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SCIV did a few good things technically, like, build up its backgrounds reusing the same tiles over and over again to gave a nice lush look, but some of the sprite and tile work leaves allot to be desired.
One misconception about SCIV is that it has the largest sprites of the early Castlevania games, as you can see from the picture below, this far from true...infact, the largest SCIV character(mode 7 rock golem) is a backgraound tile.
Rondo top SCIV bottom
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi567.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss114%2Fbethcongo%2Fscreenshots%2Fzw.png&hash=a16d70c3b44a011f5d78419c8536c31e69dff561)
The early games also differ allot aswell in terms of animation, infact, Rondo has more sprite animation than SCIV, DracXX and Bloodlines combined...example below.
Rondo Death
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi567.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss114%2Fbethcongo%2Fscreenshots%2Funtitledccdi-1.png&hash=8eb4d7c1649d8c40285a3530e433097b43a86b4a)(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi567.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss114%2Fbethcongo%2Fscreenshots%2Funtitledggl-1.png&hash=16e9f968f2f8eb345345d5508c38894da4413d8e)
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi567.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss114%2Fbethcongo%2Fscreenshots%2Funtitlededs.png&hash=9713ca7d026c310405003f51cc2ef9e8acd337c8)(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi567.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss114%2Fbethcongo%2Fscreenshots%2Funtitlededslk.png&hash=10490b76968493e43bfc34a5dec0d0131ff43b72)
Death SCIV Death Bloodlines
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi567.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss114%2Fbethcongo%2Fscreenshots%2Fcv4death.png&hash=7cf4b01937ed5dcd5af92cabba4cb2813a4cb73a) (https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi567.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss114%2Fbethcongo%2Fscreenshots%2Fdeath.png&hash=5957b3c64b210d6c7b57bb304c4f49c64d255f60)
Here are some screenshot comparisons. I find Rondo and DracXX to be the best looking of the old school console castlevania games.
Rondo SOTN
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi567.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss114%2Fbethcongo%2FCD_072EAB00-018.png&hash=9bb626c71088982616b1e923ea05991b8c1b4de7) (https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi567.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss114%2Fbethcongo%2Fstage-colosseum1-2.png&hash=8a08a78d2f09752310882aaa0ca8cec510390af8)
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi567.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss114%2Fbethcongo%2FCD_072EAB00-023.png&hash=e29bd6ad0aa6988cce0a8ac760e1fd03d01b70cb) (https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi567.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss114%2Fbethcongo%2Folr-2.png&hash=d1dff472bba8b4dd84af50cc914a502a2e16a229)
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi567.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss114%2Fbethcongo%2FCD_072EAB00-037.png&hash=f023df21028d5a08286f806bb02c8c37d8bb0569) (https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi567.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss114%2Fbethcongo%2Fnew-extra4.png&hash=d0635c35f27245e3d521dcef6b33a695a0abb9cc)
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi567.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss114%2Fbethcongo%2FCD_072EAB00-044.png&hash=f15f63edfd4928b10b5c05d8e48b89252bd457ba) (https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi567.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss114%2Fbethcongo%2Fnew-extra8.png&hash=b1e70635a2409630f00d36916b34795362e881ef)
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi567.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss114%2Fbethcongo%2FCD_072EAB00-029.png&hash=2b26adc2aca86ecd2d22a5fbd80db94169b573eb) (https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi567.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss114%2Fbethcongo%2Fent-1.png&hash=d5fd23fbb05c13246e4cf7cd6f51f3b46217c3d1)
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi567.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss114%2Fbethcongo%2FCD_072EAB00-009.png&hash=9e354ed24cfc9fc6be05fb0cdea2bc1b38d39ecd) (https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi567.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss114%2Fbethcongo%2Fnew-extra10.png&hash=a5e8ead516e8ef1b8c402ffc0e1bf5b56f1afb4f)
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi567.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss114%2Fbethcongo%2FCD_072EAB00-046.png&hash=72602350c531ad215f8f4b7a404e0bb9e74695a8) (https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi567.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss114%2Fbethcongo%2Fstage-final1-3.gif&hash=67214365c68f5b8aa8ca14d5fedea27fbef5e159)
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi567.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss114%2Fbethcongo%2FCD_072EAB00-013.png&hash=a793dd2cad3b6693c18f359c9c641e9a713a6ec5) (https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi567.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss114%2Fbethcongo%2Fmar-2.png&hash=83f6d31c9c4519e6365483eebbc00145eb9e76b6)
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi567.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss114%2Fbethcongo%2FCD_072EAB00-002.png&hash=44a1c58addcf792733de35bed9495eec66090b88) (https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi567.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss114%2Fbethcongo%2Fstage-final1-2.png&hash=076e5b5ea9cd6c001f4020c5464deb074afca463)
Rondo DracXX
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi567.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss114%2Fbethcongo%2FCD_072EAB00-405.png&hash=c1c5d85436be97cc96547456a91681439bdd848e) (https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi132.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq13%2Fawack%2FCastlevania-DraculaXU034.png&hash=69622281f05d85cb243c7bcbe983a627d436862b)
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi567.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss114%2Fbethcongo%2FCD_072EAB00-045.png&hash=a4da249cd4e0534f29bc97f1a2bf93bedba55b49) (https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi132.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq13%2Fawack%2FCastlevania-DraculaXU038.png&hash=a7dff9c96f75ea1230d0bda2272e49445ec08891)
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi567.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss114%2Fbethcongo%2FCD_072EAB00-052-1.png&hash=ff75dce6be25e78fbf360558b27641f2909e1184) (https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi132.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq13%2Fawack%2FCastlevania-DraculaXU035.png&hash=784c4600c040fa57e274d6345f821569fd079b6e)
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi567.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss114%2Fbethcongo%2FCD_072EAB00-035.png&hash=fc361e83cd906337d7521402216515a8cac5e29c) (https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi132.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq13%2Fawack%2FCastlevania-DraculaXU037.png&hash=1db700a166c36478d94c27b8e4022b94a98faa19)
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi567.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss114%2Fbethcongo%2FCD_072EAB00-039.png&hash=32cbff4e6f99b0de614b5caa2d5384120e161c6a) (https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi132.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq13%2Fawack%2FCastlevania-DraculaXU032.png&hash=14039d179536f7fa17a603337d4fb68d0786220a)
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi567.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss114%2Fbethcongo%2FCD_072EAB00-049.png&hash=f8e0653dd1941cfa96d7833c324c931565cd4af2) (https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi132.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq13%2Fawack%2FCastlevania-DraculaXU044.png&hash=e91a27ea9ee7d1b13b8c694c15af5a70529f366e)
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi567.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss114%2Fbethcongo%2FCD_072EAB00-047.png&hash=a644198ec784f71fe51331365052efb01209f370) (https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi567.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss114%2Fbethcongo%2FAkumajouDraculaXXJ035.png&hash=c63fc6dc813a6f624675a1345c596ac1785a405f)
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi567.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss114%2Fbethcongo%2FCDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-0-53.png&hash=63fb21f41c3821b0737012f8b72531213f74d3ec) (https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi567.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss114%2Fbethcongo%2FAkumajouDraculaXXJ051.png&hash=609679b69c9bd93ff036ed77dad5daee726e1c4d)
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Rondo is definitely a very pretty game, and OMG @ the amount of animations for Death in Rondo.
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That Atlantis screenshot of DXX is just terrible lol. I think I actually prefer the Rondo backgrounds to the DXX ones now that I'm seeing them side-by-side instead of relying on memory. They're more tiled I guess, but I think I actually prefer their environment designs over DXX. The colors pop out more too. It's not as "dark" but I think it provides more in intricate details.
Rondo pretty much had the best sprites out of the classic Vanias totally. The range in variety, form, and colors is pretty unparalleled. And it's just such a lean and clean style. I love it. <3
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That Atlantis screenshot of DXX is just terrible lol.
The Atlantis "Hidden Springs" level is gorgeous. That screenshot doesn't do it justice. To me, it's a much better level than the Ghost Ship in Rondo. Here are some better images, though they only show the first part, and not the later aqueducts:
http://www.castlevaniadungeon.net/Images/Stages/DXX/5a-1.gif
(http://www.castlevaniadungeon.net/Images/Stages/DXX/5a-1.gif)http://www.castlevaniadungeon.net/Images/Screens/dxxi.png (http://www.castlevaniadungeon.net/Images/Screens/dxxi.png)
Though, you know, those screenshots of Rondo look strangely better than the game did on PSP...
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I actually prefer the Rondo pirate ship level. The pirate ship is the probably the most organic of Rondo's backgrounds. There's very little tiling in it besides the docks. I love the ships in the background and the use of strong purple for the shadows. Also, I'm not really fond of the way the PSP renders 2D.
Soma-kun, have you played Rondo yet? It's the Classic Vania with the easiest controls. You should probably give it a shot if you can. It also has a bunch of alternate paths and levels. There's a lot more openness in it than any other classic title. I think you might be warmer toward it than the others.
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The Soviet film Battleship Potemkin from 1921 is one of the greatest films of all time, but you still have to view it from its time period to see how ground breaking it is (for instance, that movie was the first to use a montage, something like that being new is hard to grasp in this day and age).
I completely agree with the spirit of your post, but I think this is a terrible example. Battleship Potemkin is a technically groundbreaking movie but little more; the technical elements are impressive but they don't make it a "good movie", they make it an important movie in the history of cinema. It's a not-so-subtle difference, expecially when you consider that some of the masterpieces of the time (citing for example Griffith and his Broken Blossom) still work as movies even today.
What I mean to say is that historical perspective is the only thing that justifies Battleship Potemkin, while I'd argue that most of the 8 and 16 bit Castlevania games are still GOOD games, historical perspective or not. You need to put it into context to look past some of the flaws, but you can still appreciate them in this day and age.
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I completely agree with the spirit of your post, but I think this is a terrible example. Battleship Potemkin is a technically groundbreaking movie but little more; the technical elements are impressive but they don't make it a "good movie", they make it an important movie in the history of cinema. It's a not-so-subtle difference, expecially when you consider that some of the masterpieces of the time (citing for example Griffith and his Broken Blossom) still work as movies even today.
What I mean to say is that historical perspective is the only thing that justifies Battleship Potemkin, while I'd argue that most of the 8 and 16 bit Castlevania games are still GOOD games, historical perspective or not. You need to put it into context to look past some of the flaws, but you can still appreciate them in this day and age.
Battleship Potemkin was actually a movie considered so powerful at the time that it could cause an uprising, which is why is banned by many countries throughout the world (including the Soviet Union for a time). Few movies have ever had an impact as much as that one, not just on its technical achievements but in that it helped change the world, it was (and is) truly a masterpiece. When placed in its historical context it is an even more interesting movie (for instance, small things like the different versions of the film, the original opening with a quote by Leon Trotsky, the second version strangely changing it to a quote by Vladimir Lenin after Stalin takes power). Appreciating its historical context does increase a persons enjoyment of it. Although, even when I didn't much about it when first saw it, I still thought it was a great movie.
And I agree with you, the classicvanias are still good games, but context is necessary to enjoy them to their fullest.
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I was going to make a thread about this, but ill ask here.
What do you guys think about the SOTN port in Dracula X Chronicles?
I am loving it so far, but to me, there was no reason to mess with the dialogue like that. And even worse the voice actors. They made Alucard sound like a teenager, and Maria like an annoying bitch.
They even changed the classic dialogue betwen Richter and Dracula! >:(
They could have fixed the bugs, hell, maybe they could have added the secret areas in the saturn version, but noooo, they had to waste money on chaging the voices and dialgoue. sigh
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^Off-topic, but I really hope they don't do something similar with the Star Fox 64 remake for 3DS coming up. The wacky voice acting is half of the appeal.
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I was going to make a thread about this, but ill ask here.
What do you guys think about the SOTN port in Dracula X Chronicles?
I am loving it so far, but to me, there was no reason to mess with the dialogue like that. And even worse the voice actors. They made Alucard sound like a teenager, and Maria like an annoying bitch.
They even changed the classic dialogue betwen Richter and Dracula! >:(
They could have fixed the bugs, hell, maybe they could have added the secret areas in the saturn version, but noooo, they had to waste money on chaging the voices and dialgoue. sigh
I hate it. Its inferior to all other versions of the game. There are more glitches (and not the fun kind :( ), the new voice acting is worse than the originals, and while the script was improved, it lost all of the charm the original translation had. On top of that Maria mode was boring as hell. Also, whenever you move on the PSP the ghosting is terrible, this was also a big problem when you played Rondo of Blood too, but Symphony is such a gorgeous game it just pains me to see it like this.
Its inferior to every other version.
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I hate it. Its inferior to all other versions of the game. There are more glitches (and not the fun kind :( ), the new voice acting is worse than the originals, and while the script was improved, it lost all of the charm the original translation had. On top of that Maria mode was boring as hell. Also, whenever you move on the PSP the ghosting is terrible, this was also a big problem when you played Rondo of Blood too, but Symphony is such a gorgeous game it just pains me to see it like this.
Its inferior to every other version.
A perfect example to tie up this thread.
I loved the SotN port, if just for the dialogue. Like I said before, maybe it's because I don't have the nostalgia goggles, but I don't adore the "What is a man!" line beyond it's comedic value. I find the port's dialogue to just be more well done.
Maria mode might have been boring as hell (mostly because I had just run through the game twice) but it was more than NOT having a Maria mode.
And I never noticed any problems with ghosting.
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I didn't care much for the PSP dialogue since it was mostly rephrased rather than re-translated. And the voice acting was still bad. So it was like okay, what was the point? If I was nice, I'd say that it was one notch above the badness of SoTN but still bad.
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Alucard to death, in the castle entrance:
"Step aside, old man"
That was laaaaaameee :(
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And I never noticed any problems with ghosting.
The PSP 2000 suffers from it the most, which is the one that was released around the same time as DXC so I unfortunately bought that one. It really ruins the experience.
I didn't care much for the PSP dialogue since it was mostly rephrased rather than re-translated. And the voice acting was still bad. So it was like okay, what was the point? If I was nice, I'd say that it was one notch above the badness of SoTN but still bad.
I agree with this, but while it was a notch above the badness of the original it was also no longer so bad its good... :-\
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^Off-topic, but I really hope they don't do something similar with the Star Fox 64 remake for 3DS coming up. The wacky voice acting is half of the appeal.
Dee-tach the rear veehickle.
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Have you heard of a Retro Duo (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retro_Duo?wasRedirected=true)? It plays both NES & SNES games, plus it's pretty cheap (about $40, but you could prolly find it even cheaper on ebay or some place). Some models even have Genesis support.
Or you can just hack your Wii if you have 1
I'm not sure if this has been responded to, but if being purist is a concern, I would recommend against these modern clone systems. Granted, I haven't tried the retro duo, but I've tried the yobo and some others. They basically emulate the entire system on a chip, leaving all the room for emulation inaccuracies. It's nice having something to plug into a TV and using the original cartridge and all, but using a good emulator and ROM may actually handle the game more accurately. Who knows how well sound expansion and/or more advanced mappers work (like MMC5 in CV3 US) on these systems as well...
I guess the biggest offense of the clone systems is usually the sound emulation. Then again that probably doesn't matter to most gamers at all...
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So SomaCruz90, how far are you into SCV4?
-X
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He's beaten it. Considering his inactivity, I think he is trying to get Rondo Of Blood now.
As someone who also dislike Belmont Jump Physics, he'll probably want to find Maria at the first opportunity, though she can make it stupid easy.