Castlevania Dungeon Forums
The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: crisis on October 18, 2010, 11:04:02 PM
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So we have this Zead-like character aiding Gabriel to fulfill his quest, which in the end turns out to be the 3rd Lords of Shadow, "Lord of the Necromancers," death personified yadda yadda.
What I don't understand is why he acts the way he does. When his good half ascended into Heaven, all was left was the corrupt, evil half of his spirit, yet in his monologues he sounds anything but. His betrayal of Gabriel was very abrupt, making all what he said prior absolutely meaningless. In the epilogue, is it just me, or does it seem that he still has some good left in him? He still refers to DracuGabriel as his "old friend," yet he basically denounced their friendship at the end of the game. The way he stares at the Crucifix in the church, even his facial expressions suggests that he's not entirely corrupt. It seems he truly wants to free Gabriel of his curse, which contradicts his emotions at the climax of LoS. Then again, it's been a near-thousand years since they've interacted (presumably), so who knows what could've happened.
Also, I don't remember if this was touched upon, but where/when did he get the Devil Mask? I seem to remember he just randomly was holding it in one scene, never explaining where he got it from..
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His plan the whole time is to get Gabriel to get the god mask, so he can steal it, because according to prophecy, only Gabe can (or one like Gabe).
In the epilogue, he's "helping" Gabe because he requires it. Satan will go after both of them. So Zobek prefers to team up with Gabe before Satan makes Gabe and him, his bitch.
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I agree with Kale.
Zobek was fooled by Satan who left his nearly dead at the end of LOS, so he wants to fight back. When he was told Satan and his minions were about to resurrect, he feared to be a slave of him, so he proposed Dracula to team up to fight Satan together due to his supernatural strengh.
Crisis, I'm not sure about he being Death, like you refer with Zead. Lord of the Necromancers, yes, he calls himself like that, Death, wasn't he talking with Gabriel just before resurrecting the Dragon Skeleton ?
There's a lot of parts surrounded by shadows in the plot (regarding the final scene) but after all it's only a game, who cares about storyline really.
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Considering how easily Satan ass whooped Zobek, couldn't he just have collected the pieces of the God Mask himself?
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Considering how easily Satan ass whooped Zobek, couldn't he just have collected the pieces of the God Mask himself?
For sure ! But if he's doing all and kills the 3 Lords by himself, what's the game ? ^^
That's why I always tell fans to concentrate on games and not storylines which are condammed to be dull in every video game.
Just take a Mario game : Bowser doesn't to be defeated ? He just have to put an big gap between Mario and him, which Mario can't jump because of its size, and he'll be sure to win. Will Nintendo allow it ? Never, of course.
Storyline are just a mean, not the end of all things.
I've played lot of excellent with NO storyline and they remain excellent
I've also played lot of games with deep story but awful to play.
If you just want a story, please watch a movie or read a book.
Games are made to be played, not to be talked.
Is a game fun to be played or not ? Nothing else matters.
(what I say is general dear Nagumo, it's not against you, I think you see my point)
:D
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Considering how easily Satan ass whooped Zobek, couldn't he just have collected the pieces of the God Mask himself?
I thought about that but then my brain started to hurt, so I just left it alone.
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I thought about that but then my brain started to hurt, so I just left it alone.
I'm sure Satan could have killed the 3 lords easily but wouldn't be able to recover the mask, he needed Gabriel for that.
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Yeah Satan isn't someone pure of heart... AT ALL! xD
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Well, he might be pure evil >.>
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(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3057/2367515373_515ff7a325.jpg)
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I've been thinking about Zobek and his hidden agenda. There are obviously several points in the game when it's hinted that Zobek may have more sinister plans in store. However, I never really thought about it until my second play through.
For instance when Zobek says that Carmilla can sense the living, but she cannot sense death also...that was what did it for me lol. Anyways, I'm wondering more about the in-game possibilities.
When the village boy warns Gabriel of Brauner and Zobek says "I'll take care of the boy...", do you think he just killed him as soon as Gabriel was out of sight? I mean, it does seem like Zobek is the most humane and civil of the dark lords, but I still wouldn't put it past him. Also, right before you meet zobek in the village abbey, he says he has to "take care of some things that could spoil our plans". Could he have murdered all those brotherhood knights that he kneels next to? Vampires slayed the whole army...sure, zobek :P
Just some thoughts, yours?
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Storyline are just a mean, not the end of all things.
I've played lot of excellent with NO storyline and they remain excellent
I've also played lot of games with deep story but awful to play.
If you just want a story, please watch a movie or read a book.
What you say is true, however a great story can enhance a game (or save it). Just look at Braid. It was a great game in its own right with some of the cleverest puzzles to be seen outside of Portal, and the story was incredible and greatly enhanced the game.
I think the bigger question isn't why Satan didn't get the mask himself, but why did he even want it? So he could see the world from the eyes of God? Thats kind of pointless.
And if Zobek was being manipulated by Satan, maybe he never wanted to betray Gabriel, but the idea was also created by Satan, but like the rest of his scheme.
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Both Cornell and Carmilla acted civil towards Gabriel when they first met, but that doesn't make them any less evil. It's the same with Zobek, he was just being friendly toward Gabriel to manipulate the situation. I have no doubt that he "took care" of that child by killing him. Since he is the Lord of the Dead, theoretically every time a living thing dies, Zobek's power and influence grows stronger. The Dracolich was reanimated by one of his his generals. Just imagine how much power Zobek gained when Cornell, Malphas, Carmilla, and Baba Yaga were killed. Like dead puppets, he should be able to reanimate their bodies and use their powers as his own. The Lord of Death ultimately wants everything dead. Just because he can banter with Gabe doesn't mean he's not evil.
As for Satan, I think he made the classic villain's mistake of thinking he could use God's own power against him. He didn't understand that the Mask's power is more metaphorical than literal. If you could see what God sees, then you would theoretically reach enlightenment and peace. A perfect understanding of all things. This is why Gabriel saw Marie as alive while he had the mask on, because through God's eyes no one is truly dead. Gabriel was too crushed emotionally to truly understand what he was seeing though. And just like Gabriel couldn't see the truth beyond his sadness, Satan couldn't see the truth beyond his ego.
I personally don't think Gabriel became a Lord of Shadow at the end of the game. The three founders ascended to heaven, each with a piece of the Mask, when they reached enlightenment. But their more base and evil natures were left on Earth and became the Lords of Shadow because evil doesn't go to heaven. Marie tells Gabriel that he has a good heart and is not evil. But when she puts the mask on him, even though he is using it's power, he doesn't understand it and only sees disappointment. Gabriel isn't even split into good and evil halves. But Marie, who is technically Gabriel's better half, does ascend to heaven while holding the mask. Leaving Gabriel cursed to immortality until he makes up for his sins. Which is another reason why I don't think Gabe is a Lord of Shadow. He may be immortal, but he has the ability to redeem his sins. This is something the Lords could never do because they were sin.
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Somewhat unrelated but did anyone notice the green necromantic energy around Frankenstein's abomination the second time you fight it?
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I thought about that but then my brain started to hurt, so I just left it alone.
I doubt the three founding spirits would have sent the mask pieces to Satan the same way they did with Gabriel.
One thing you need to consider is the amount of foreshadowing Zobek gives in his level introductions: if you play the game a second time, the amount of foreshadowing is mindboggling. From things like "plans long dreamed are coming to fruition" to him having "business to attend to" wherever witnesses are left behind, to his comments about Carmilla being unable to feel death close to her (it seems like he's talking about her incoming fate, but he's actually just musing about him being hidden somewhere in the vicinity) and so on.
I don't think Zobek's villanous ends are undermined by his civil tone. Steward did a good job with his voice in the revelation cutscene, because he kept the same tone he had through the whole game but played it in a more amused, playful way - he's some sort of Joker revealing his masterplan there, complete with a "I fooled you all along" voice.
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Hmmmm, so you're saying that the green energy came from Zobek resurrecting the abomination? I don't think that since Zobek wanted Gabriel to succeed so he could kill Carmilla. What purpose would it serve him to try and make more obstacles attack and slow him down?
As for Satan vs. Gabe(Dracul) and Zobek in a sequel, are you serious? If this is where the series is headed then I am getting off the boat now. All we need is for a sequel to have a tag team effort between the two ala LOK: Defiance with Satan being the elder god. Nah, don't want it for a castlevania game. If they drop the castlevania name for the sequel, I would be more inclined to play it. Dracula is the prince of darkness in a castlevania game, not satan.
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It doesn't make any sense when you think about it. But I did see green electricity, the kind necromancers use.
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Hmmmm, so you're saying that the green energy came from Zobek resurrecting the abomination? I don't think that since Zobek wanted Gabriel to succeed so he could kill Carmilla. What purpose would it serve him to try and make more obstacles attack and slow him down?
As for Satan vs. Gabe(Dracul) and Zobek in a sequel, are you serious? If this is where the series is headed then I am getting off the boat now. All we need is for a sequel to have a tag team effort between the two ala LOK: Defiance with Satan being the elder god. Nah, don't want it for a castlevania game. If they drop the castlevania name for the sequel, I would be more inclined to play it. Dracula is the prince of darkness in a castlevania game, not satan.
We're talking about a saga that is over 20 years old, and has seen something like 20 installments made of "dude goes to kill Dracula".
I'm ALL for having a Simon Belmont vs Gabriel von Dracul sequel to LoS. ALL FOR IT. Traditional, same-old Castlevania? I'll be there day one.
But if instead what we get is a Legacy of Kain-Castlevania hybrid, even set in modern day, with the environmental quality LoS introduced and storytelling and atmosphere that can even just get close to Legacy of Kain and an engrossing story to rival MGS... I'll be there day one too.
There's a part of my mind that has this little pornographic fantasy of Kojima falling in love with Castlevania and taking its reins and making it some sort of fantasy Metal Gear Solid, with insanely long cutscenes and centuries-spanning storylines and intrigues and so on. Yes yes I know. It's WRONG. Castlevania is fine as it is.
But imagine Kojima working his stuff in an environment where he can have his characters actually live for centuries, he can have colossal monsters without fake tecnology stunts, where he can use magic instead of nanomachines. Imagine him fleshing out Dracula as well as he did with Big Boss and the Belmonts as well as Snake.
I know, it's wrong, but it's glorious ;D .
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We're talking about a saga that is over 20 years old, and has seen something like 20 installments made of "dude goes to kill Dracula".
I'm ALL for having a Simon Belmont vs Gabriel von Dracul sequel to LoS. ALL FOR IT. Traditional, same-old Castlevania? I'll be there day one.
But if instead what we get is a Legacy of Kain-Castlevania hybrid, even set in modern day, with the environmental quality LoS introduced and storytelling and atmosphere that can even just get close to Legacy of Kain and an engrossing story to rival MGS... I'll be there day one too.
There's a part of my mind that has this little pornographic fantasy of Kojima falling in love with Castlevania and taking its reins and making it some sort of fantasy Metal Gear Solid, with insanely long cutscenes and centuries-spanning storylines and intrigues and so on. Yes yes I know. It's WRONG. Castlevania is fine as it is.
But imagine Kojima working his stuff in an environment where he can have his characters actually live for centuries, he can have colossal monsters without fake tecnology stunts, where he can use magic instead of nanomachines. Imagine him fleshing out Dracula as well as he did with Big Boss and the Belmonts as well as Snake.
I know, it's wrong, but it's glorious ;D .
Big Boss is one of my favorite characters because he's been so fleshed out, you actually give a damn when he gets the shaft. If Kojima could make me love castlevania more than i already do then yes I'll support this.
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What I don't understand is why he acts the way he does. When his good half ascended into Heaven, all was left was the corrupt, evil half of his spirit, yet in his monologues he sounds anything but. His betrayal of Gabriel was very abrupt...
I have to echo what Valtiel said. I didn't think it was abrupt at all, as there was plenty of foreshadowing in the monologues. I could tell early on that Zobek was hiding something. Heck, even before the game came out, that one line in the trailer ("don't you see Gabriel, you can bring her back!") sounded extremely suspect to me. He totally sounds like an evil dude. ;)
About how he got the Devil Mask? I'm also clueless. I was wondering if I missed something obvious? Are we supposed to assume that with Zobek stalking Gabriel for the whole game, that each time a Lord of Shadow was taken down, a second piece came down with each part of the God Mask? And that Gabriel wasn't aware of this, and Zobek scooped up the other pieces?
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There's a part of my mind that has this little pornographic fantasy of Kojima falling in love with Castlevania and taking its reins and making it some sort of fantasy Metal Gear Solid, with insanely long cutscenes and centuries-spanning storylines and intrigues and so on. Yes yes I know. It's WRONG. Castlevania is fine as it is.
But imagine Kojima working his stuff in an environment where he can have his characters actually live for centuries, he can have colossal monsters without fake tecnology stunts, where he can use magic instead of nanomachines. Imagine him fleshing out Dracula as well as he did with Big Boss and the Belmonts as well as Snake.
I know, it's wrong, but it's glorious ;D .
I hope this doesn't happen. I'm a big Metal Gear fan, but there's only so much of Kojima I can tolerate. He seriously lacks restraint when he tells a story, for example (like what he did to The Boss' character in the Peace Walker conversations). And plus, I would want his really long cutscenes and bizarre characters to stay in the Metal Gear series. That's what makes that series what it is...I just don't want his style to bleed over into another established franchise, I guess.
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So this crazy idea just popped into my head regarding Zobek. The final cutscene implies that Gabriel hasn't seen Zobek in a long time, possibly since the necromancer's abyss. Which means the direct sequel may not have Zobek in it. We all know Gabriel's fate and that he has the power of all 3 lords (werewolf, Vampire, and necromancy) so why couldn't he be the one to create the death we know in the sequel? If you read in the bestiary it explains how necromancers are made (Zobek would give them some of his life force similar to how the necromancer boss fights work and that also explains how using some of Zobek's life force Gabriel was able to summon the pillar of light and retrieve the final piece of the mask) so why couldn't Gabriel/Dracula just do the same and make a powerful necromancer to do his bidding ala death in the old series?
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There's a lot of parts surrounded by shadows in the plot (regarding the final scene) but after all it's only a game, who cares about storyline really.
I registered for this site specifically to respond to this comment when I saw it during a google search.
What an ignorant, moronic statement. It's people like you that cause the general lack of respect that the video game industry still has. If you aren't playing because you're interested in the story, ESPECIALLY for this particular game, what the hell are you playing for? This game had boobies and blood, I guess that's what your childish little mind was into. This game was a chore to play but had a terrific story. Seeing a retarded comment like that actually gets my blood boiling. If story doesn't matter, stop playing games like this. You should be playing crap internet flash games that just require you to waste time and click your mouse button if that's how you feel. But then people make some great Flash games, and they have plots too...who cares about storylines, right?
You're an ass. Grow up.
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(http://oi56.tinypic.com/ac8lsx.jpg)
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For sure ! But if he's doing all and kills the 3 Lords by himself, what's the game ? ^^
That's why I always tell fans to concentrate on games and not storylines which are condammed to be dull in every video game.
Just take a Mario game : Bowser doesn't to be defeated ? He just have to put an big gap between Mario and him, which Mario can't jump because of its size, and he'll be sure to win. Will Nintendo allow it ? Never, of course.
Storyline are just a mean, not the end of all things.
I've played lot of excellent with NO storyline and they remain excellent
I've also played lot of games with deep story but awful to play.
If you just want a story, please watch a movie or read a book.
Games are made to be played, not to be talked.
Is a game fun to be played or not ? Nothing else matters.
Video Games are not meant to be played, so much as they are meant to be interacted with. Discussion and contemplation is a form of interaction. The idea that gameplay is the only thing that matters and that it is pointless to talk about games is horrendously counter-productive and eliminates most of the potential that the medium possesses as a tool for storytelling or expression.
It would be ideal for a game to excel in every facet of its being, but that will generally not be the case; for this, the game should be addressed based upon its merits and its ultimate point rather than by what you perceive the definition of "game" to be. (read: pidgeon-holing is bad)
This game was a chore to play but had a terrific story.
you mispelled terrible S:
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but after all it's only a game, who cares about storyline really.
Its because of comments like this that video games are still fighting to be considered an art form and not just childish brain junk food. (EG the reason that there are moronic govt fights over violence and or sex in videogames)
you mispelled terrific S:
And you misspelled misspelled. Also, fixed that typo in "terrific" ;)
I registered for this site specifically to respond to this comment when I saw it during a google search.
What an ignorant, moronic statement. It's people like you that cause the general lack of respect that the video game industry still has. If you aren't playing because you're interested in the story, ESPECIALLY for this particular game, what the hell are you playing for? This game had boobies and blood, I guess that's what your childish little mind was into. This game was a chore to play but had a terrific story. Seeing a retarded comment like that actually gets my blood boiling. If story doesn't matter, stop playing games like this. You should be playing crap internet flash games that just require you to waste time and click your mouse button if that's how you feel. But then people make some great Flash games, and they have plots too...who cares about storylines, right?
You're an ass. Grow up.
(http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac71/Flame-G102/post%20stuff/LTLQ.gif)
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Jeez, people sure get militant about storylines around here, huh?
Yeah, I didn't play LoS for the plot. I played it for the action because, really, that's what Castlevania has always been about. I do appreciate games with brilliant plots, but I don't include LoS (or really any Castlevania) among them. Folks have different priorities; I play games to have a fun time, and when that aspect of the game plays second fiddle to plot, I often come away disappointed unless the plot part of the jig really (and I mean really) holds up. With LoS, I found a sorta-fun-but-flawed action game whose plot, while having high class actors and a better grasp of the English language than its predecessors, wasn't really much better or worse than any other Castlevania plot.
But back on topic. Zobek damn well better be sporting that scythe and all those trappings in the sequel; otherwise, I will be sad.
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Zobek = Dracula?
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I registered for this site specifically to respond to this comment when I saw it during a google search.
What an ignorant, moronic statement. It's people like you that cause the general lack of respect that the video game industry still has. If you aren't playing because you're interested in the story, ESPECIALLY for this particular game, what the hell are you playing for? This game had boobies and blood, I guess that's what your childish little mind was into. This game was a chore to play but had a terrific story. Seeing a retarded comment like that actually gets my blood boiling. If story doesn't matter, stop playing games like this. You should be playing crap internet flash games that just require you to waste time and click your mouse button if that's how you feel. But then people make some great Flash games, and they have plots too...who cares about storylines, right?
You're an ass. Grow up.
A great story can save a mediocre game (Xenogears for instance), but Castlevania 1 for example hardly needed to tell a story at all (guy with whip fights monsters, the end) and is one of the greatest games ever. If you want a great story, Castlevania isn't really where you should be looking. I do play some video games for their stories, but I definitely wouldn't play Castlevania for its story. Go play an RPG or a Team ICO game or something if you care about the plot. Castlevania is more about the atmosphere than anything else.
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I registered for this site specifically to respond to this comment when I saw it during a google search.
What an ignorant, moronic statement. It's people like you that cause the general lack of respect that the video game industry still has. If you aren't playing because you're interested in the story, ESPECIALLY for this particular game, what the hell are you playing for? This game had boobies and blood, I guess that's what your childish little mind was into. This game was a chore to play but had a terrific story. Seeing a retarded comment like that actually gets my blood boiling. If story doesn't matter, stop playing games like this. You should be playing crap internet flash games that just require you to waste time and click your mouse button if that's how you feel. But then people make some great Flash games, and they have plots too...who cares about storylines, right?
You're an ass. Grow up.
LOS doesn't even have a so great story, so I think if we see it in that way, it ends being a pretty retarded game :P
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And you misspelled misspelled.
oops
Also, fixed that typo in "terrific"
heh sorry if I do not appreciate a storyline that has a double I'VE BEEN BEHIND EVERYTHING ALL ALONG reveal within the same cutscene and relishing in every potential cliche they could have applied - yet while simultaneously legitimately attempting a serious, quality storyline. The only potentially interesting concept they had was the idea of the virtuous ascending and leaving behind their "dark" selves; but even that was squandered on "themed" baddies, being slammed down your throat by a miserable execution of the concept.
plus, uh, the confused narrative constantly saying how dark and beautiful gabriel is when the actual character quite clearly goes against that concept (until the last few minutes of the game, which had no build-up beyond that at-the-time meaningless narrative).
ad infinitum
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While I don't deny the bad delivery of Gabriel's transformation, I advocate for the overall storyline, while it's telling was kinda amateur (Understandable, Jericho had a mess of plot - simple yet convulted, it was well delivered though- and then there was scrapland that... let's forget about it, and Blade: Edge of darkness was filled with RPG cliches of the 90's -great game though-) the script was good even beyond videogame standards, the whole "falling from grace" was great, at the beggining gabriel was an epic hero, at the end a devastated man with nothing to lose, and Zobek.. ok we all knew he was bad, but we didn't know he was going to be fried so it was good too ;D
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Yknow... going back to Zobek... playable Zobek would have rocked. I mean like, using his sword rather than a whip.
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Honestly, I think the script can only be justified within video game standards. It can appear good but only because video games have had such a knack for horrible writing in the past; if we put it alongside any measure of quality writing in literature or any other medium it kind of falls flat on its face.
I mean come on, Carmilla actually says "We're not so different, you and I". (i don't remember if it is verbatim, though: it may be slightly altered)
I would really like to provide specific examples here (I remember that narrative about dreaming being terrible, though), but I'm running up against the clock and I really must be reading some Kant right now.
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Also, I don't remember if this was touched upon, but where/when did he get the Devil Mask? I seem to remember he just randomly was holding it in one scene, never explaining where he got it from..
Zobek got the Devil Mask from Satan (the Devil) obviously. 8)
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Wasnt it stated in game as well? I could swear either Zobek or Satan mention it.
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Sure, Satan said it "It was I who granted you with power" or something
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Sure, Satan said it "It was I who granted you with power" or something
Yes, Satan did grant Zobek power, but nothing ever mentions the mask specifically. Maybe the DLC will shed some light on it.
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Well, one stands to reason that if the GOD mask is a heavenly device possibly made by God, or through the ascension of the founders, that the DEVIL mask is made by, yknow, hellspawn and/or the Devil.
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Honestly, I think the script can only be justified within video game standards. It can appear good but only because video games have had such a knack for horrible writing in the past; if we put it alongside any measure of quality writing in literature or any other medium it kind of falls flat on its face.
I mean come on, Carmilla actually says "We're not so different, you and I". (i don't remember if it is verbatim, though: it may be slightly altered)
...I really must be reading some Kant right now.
O.O r u liek mai twin? I'm going through critical theories too. He's a dense bastard, that Kant.
The line you mentioned is parroted again by the Necromancer (awesome though he is oh my god why did he have to die so quickly), and Zobek also says something way too close to "Search your feelings, you know it to be true!"
I'm willing to forgive all of Zobek's melodramatic narrator transgressions if he turns into bonafied Death, because Death voiced by Patrick Stewart would be way too awesome for words.