Castlevania Dungeon Forums

The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: Mike Belmont on April 01, 2011, 04:47:11 PM

Title: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: Mike Belmont on April 01, 2011, 04:47:11 PM
[This is my first poll. I hope I did it in a correct manner :)]

---SPOILER ALERT-----
You must have seen Reverie ending to know that Gabriel turns in vampire (maybe not Dracula, yet) to figure out the Dracula's origin in Lords of Shadow. However, if you see LoS epilogue, you must know that Gabriel turns in Dracula some day after LoS.
--------------------------

Having recently seen Lament of Innocence history through cutscenes, I remember how is Dracula's origin, in IGA's LoI. I, personally, prefer that one, because is more close to the Brahm Stoker's Dracula one. I like how Mathias uses all characters in the game to acomplish their mission to become in the powerful vampire. The fact that have a wife named Elizabetha, and she dies, and then he blames God to allow to this happen, is very close to what Dracula's origin must be. The way Leon fight evil through the game to rescue his bethroded, is something to note, too. The only thing that I would like, it's that having a fight with Mathias/Dracula might be awesome. Although, Dracula have not much power at that time.

Now, in the Lords of Shadow's Gabriel/Dracula tale (**********PRESUMABLE SPOILER***********), all we know is that to fight the Forgotten One, he must be powerful enough. Laura offers her powers via blood drinking. That's nice, but I would prefer Laura bites Gabriel, to him to finally turns into a vampire. Laura saids to Gabriel that is necessary to drink all of her blood, to fill his body with all of it. But, will the blood will enter Gabriel's arteries like this? How this event turns himself in somebody like the Dracula all we know? I know that Resurrection must tell us all that, but, this is all that we know related to Dracula's origin in Gabriel's tale.

Maybe neither LoI nor LoS Dracula's origin are good to anyone. But, with Dracula as MAIN antagonist in Castlevania, he deserves an epic origin, isn't?
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: DarkPrinceAlucard on April 01, 2011, 06:28:00 PM
I prefer the LOI origin for the same reason you posted above which is that it more closely followed the Bram Stoker's version of Dracula's origin which I find awesome

LOS's Dracula origin seems pretty darn lame when you compare it to LOI origin story in my honest opinion.
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: cecil-kain on April 01, 2011, 07:01:06 PM
Lords of Shadow is actually giving us a VERY similar Dracula origin, but the details are radically different.  I'm gonna go out on a limb here.  It's a mistake to introduce a Belmont hero before Dracula exists --the Belmont hero should be the RESPONSE to Dracula's arrival.  Imagine if Lords of Shadow had no Belmont --suppose we had played as "Mathias Cronqvist" the whole time?  None of this Belmont=Dracula nonsense.  THEN you introduce the Belmont hero for the sequel....  And to give Lament a little credit...  I loved that Leon and Mathias were comrades in arms before Elizabetha died.  The problem with Lament was that it was Leon's story, when it should have been all about Mathias...  Lords of Shadow fixed that problem by delivering a story from Dracula's point of view.  His actions are soundly motivated, rational, and the emotions driving him are quite authentic --superior character development --and the origin was ultimately far more mature than what we saw in Lament.
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: GuyStarwind on April 01, 2011, 07:47:20 PM
I voted LoI because it got me into Castlevania. Not to mention I like the story origins the best.

However, the real question is where is the Dark Priest violating my mind option?
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: Munchy on April 01, 2011, 08:26:26 PM
I honestly don't like either of the origin stories that much. Both of them are pretty hokey in their own ways and actually share an alarming amount of the "HAHAHA I BETRAYED YOU" plots, down to the protagonists being forced to kill their wives. I liked Dracula far better before he had like fifteen different pseudonyms and tragic backstories.

I will give LoS props for better foreshadowing, and the idea of good/bad halves kinda reminds me of Spirited Away.
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: Mike Belmont on April 01, 2011, 09:09:31 PM
It's a mistake to introduce a Belmont hero before Dracula exists --the Belmont hero should be the RESPONSE to Dracula's arrival.  Imagine if Lords of Shadow had no Belmont --suppose we had played as "Mathias Cronqvist" the whole time?  None of this Belmont=Dracula nonsense.  THEN you introduce the Belmont hero for the sequel....

Totally agree with this. This is one of my mayor complains about LoS. Well, if Gabriel was indeed a Belmont, before turning himself in Dracula, then we have no reason to argue with LoS plot and epilogue. If instead of Gabriel they must put Mathias Cronqvist (after all, Gabriel is a Cronqvist bastard). Mmhh, I have a question. If Gabriel will be the main protagonist of future CVs, will he fight the same baddies? I mean, in classic CVs, the baddies are command by Lord Dracula. Then, will Gabriel/Dracula are going to have new enemies? Or we finally will take control of a true blooded Belmont? If this is right, then why to put a Belmont name character as the protagonist in LoS? Will Kojima´s inspiration takes part in the sequels?

Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: Mike Belmont on April 01, 2011, 09:10:15 PM
I voted LoI because it got me into Castlevania. Not to mention I like the story origins the best.

However, the real question is where is the Dark Priest violating my mind option?

There you have. Jeje, sorry :).
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: justin312 on April 01, 2011, 09:39:41 PM
I, personally, prefer that one (Lament), because is more close to the Brahm Stoker's Dracula one...The fact that have a wife named Elizabetha, and she dies, and then he blames God to allow to this happen, is very close to what Dracula's origin must be.

I prefer the LOI origin for the same reason you posted above which is that it more closely followed the Bram Stoker's version of Dracula's origin which I find awesome

None of that stuff was actually in the Bram Stoker novel.  That stuff about his dead wife Elizabetha, and cursing God, was all added for Francis Ford Coppola's movie so he could make Dracula a sympathetic character and add a romantic sub-plot with Mina (none of that was in the book either).  Bram Stoker did not have an origin story for Dracula in his book.  So you could say that the Lament of Innocence story closely follows Francis Ford Coppola's Dracula, but that's about it.



I honestly don't like either of the origin stories that much. Both of them are pretty hokey in their own ways and actually share an alarming amount of the "HAHAHA I BETRAYED YOU" plots, down to the protagonists being forced to kill their wives. I liked Dracula far better before he had like fifteen different pseudonyms and tragic backstories.

I will give LoS props for better foreshadowing, and the idea of good/bad halves kinda reminds me of Spirited Away.

I agree 100% with this.  If I have to take one, I would pick LoS for the reasons above.  However, I didn't think to much of either story (I found Lament's especially hokey and ham-fisted). 

Also, I would prefer a Dracula origin that actually links the vampire Dracula with the historical Vlad the Impaler (which the book DOES strongly hint at, and stops just short of flat-out stating it).  By making Dracula some other guy who became a vampire 300 years before Vlad was even born, both LoI and LoS completely disassociate the Castlevania Dracula with Vlad the Impaler, which weakens the link to the Stoker book, in my opinion.




Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: Mike Belmont on April 01, 2011, 09:52:58 PM
None of that stuff was actually in the Bram Stoker novel.  That stuff about his dead wife Elizabetha, and cursing God, was all added for Francis Ford Coppola's movie so he could make Dracula a sympathetic character and add a romantic sub-plot with Mina (none of that was in the book either).  Bram Stoker did not have an origin story for Dracula in his book.  So you could say that the Lament of Innocence story closely follows Francis Ford Coppola's Dracula, but that's about it.

Oops. Thanks for the aclaration, pal. I need to read Bram Stoker´s novel completely :P. I have to admit, that I love the movie inspired in the book. I owned the SNES videogame a few years ago, but there´s no need to keep it if I have already SCVIV, CVDX, and Demon´s Crest :D. These are my favorite kind of games.
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: Mr.Bushido on April 01, 2011, 10:33:54 PM
We should wait to Resurrection before start making this polls. We don't know yet how Gabriel turns in Dracula, we only know how he turns into a vampire.
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: Mike Belmont on April 01, 2011, 10:48:15 PM
We should wait to Resurrection before start making this polls. We don't know yet how Gabriel turns in Dracula, we only know how he turns into a vampire.

Maybe you´re right. I based my poll in what we know of Gabriel thanks to Reverie. I´m sure that in Resurrection they will give Gabriel a Dracula´s origin. I hope that MS make the correct decision in explain how did Gabriel turns in Dracula. Maybe Zobek have some kind of participation? Let´s remember that in the LoS´ epilogue they not seems like enemies. Mmhh, let´s wait to Resurrection, then... :(.
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: X on April 01, 2011, 11:01:42 PM
I selected the 3d option which is as close to Bram Stoker's Dracula as I can get. This origin of the CV universe was just fine by me until LoI was produced. Dracula from the novel was a badass evil vampire, just like he was in the CV games. And I know there are a lot of fans out there that prefer that type of Dracula. He wasn't overly complex or emo, he was a badass that wanted to kill you as soon as you stepped into his top-most tower. We need that Dracula to come back.

-X
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: justin312 on April 02, 2011, 12:00:52 AM
Agreed, X.  Dracula is an iconic character, so everyone already has their own ideas of who he is.  Its not like he was some villain like Ganon that was introduced in a video game.  Doing a back-story that provides an "origin" and motivation for what he does was a big mistake, because it alienated some fans who liked the series because they were Dracula fans, and they already had their own ideas on who Dracula is.  It doesn't help that both origin stories are a variation of the same lame "good guy's wife dies, he can't get over it so he somehow becomes the Prince of Darkness" theme.

In my opinion, the best "Dracula origin" game they could possibly make has already been made... except its not a Castlevania game, its Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain.  In that game, you play as a guy who has just been turned into a vampire.  Unlike Mathias, you don't become a vampire by choice and you also don't have command over Death and all other monsters five minutes after first turning to a vampire.  You become more powerful as the game goes on, and you also become more evil.  By the end, you pretty much evolve from fledgling vampire into the Prince of Darkness.  To me, Kain captures the spirit of Dracula becoming Dracula a whole lot better than Mathias Cronquist or Gabriel Belmont ever could. 
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: Munchy on April 02, 2011, 12:23:37 AM
I'll admit I love LoI for some of its hilariously serious deliveries on some of the most insignificant lines ever.

"What can I do with the gathered power?"

Also if anything really needs an origin story, I'd say that would be the Castle itself.
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: GuyStarwind on April 02, 2011, 01:30:12 AM
There you have. Jeje, sorry :).

Thank you. :D
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: Ahasverus on April 02, 2011, 02:42:59 AM
It's too soon, we haven't seen Dracula yet in LoS. (Yeah we technically did but for less than 3 minutes with no clue about him so I dunno)
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: Chernabogue on April 02, 2011, 06:20:03 AM
It's too soon, we haven't seen Dracula yet in LoS. (Yeah we technically did but for less than 3 minutes with no clue about him so I dunno)
Yeah, we don't even know if he is Dracula at that time.
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: JR on April 02, 2011, 08:55:44 AM
From what I've seen so far, LoI. I liked the idea of Cronqvist becoming bitter with God and using immortality to spite him. LoS seems really interesting to me, and it could end in a cool way, but the epilogue also seemed like a Kojima-esque twist for its own sake, and it made the link between the Belmonts and Dracula needlessly incestuous.

Eh, but still, can't wait until Resurrection wraps some things up.
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: VampirehunterB on April 03, 2011, 06:21:04 PM
I'd prefer..no origin explanation at all...just the classic way nes introduced the series for the first time...Dracula simply exists, and the Belmonts kicks his ass..
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: Mike Belmont on June 08, 2011, 10:12:38 PM
Yeah, we don't even know if he is Dracula at that time.

Ok, Gabe is now Dracula, I think. How did he really transform in Dracula?
(click to show/hide)

I have see a similar recent poll, so if nobody wants to continue with this, it´s okay for me. :)
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: Flame on June 09, 2011, 12:14:26 AM
I think Gabe became Dracula t
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: Inccubus on June 09, 2011, 11:04:06 AM
I like the Bram Stoker's Dracula version where he becomes a vampire through sheer force of will.
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: Puwexil on June 09, 2011, 12:19:18 PM
That's like Brauner becoming a vampire because he was really sad.
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: kompwars on June 09, 2011, 07:50:55 PM
Is LoS even canon?
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: thernz on June 09, 2011, 08:07:16 PM
So far it's self-contained in its own canon.
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: Inccubus on June 09, 2011, 09:35:14 PM
That's like Brauner becoming a vampire because he was really sad.

Nah. Becoming a vampire because you're really mad is cooler.
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: Renonsgoods on June 09, 2011, 10:38:13 PM
I think that Bram Stokers version became a vampire because of a form of demonic possession....there was never any mention of his wife's death having anything to do with it in the novel.  People need to stop confusing this character with the romantic slob from the 1992 movie.  The two have little in common.

Personally, I'm not overly fond of either of the Castlevania origin stories for Drac.  Both of them take the character too far from his roots as an evil vampiric monster.  But if I had to choose, I'd likely choose Gabriel's.  Yeah, the majority of his descent was presented only through narration from a third party (IMO they should have done this through an internal monologue like they did in the DLC)...but at least he was present and accounted for throughout the whole of the story.  I never could abide Mathias' entry into the series because he shows up at the two minute warning via a lame "AHA...I'm the REAL villain" plot device (EXACTLY the same way Satan shows up at the end of LoS).  Plus...you don't even get to fight the dude.  Not the resume of a future demonic vampire lord IMO.  Don't get me wrong though.  It played perfectly into the Dracula he eventually became...something of a joke.

As I said, I don't hail Gabriel as "the bestest Dracula EVA" or anything...I'm just picking the lesser of the two evils.  Mathias could've worked out to be a great start to the Dracula legend, but his initial showing was just too flat and implied.  Or maybe I just didn't care for his response to his wife's death.  Mathias loses his wife.....and says "I'm gonna become a vampire to piss God off" (about as epic as a child saying they're gonna refuse to clean their room to piss off their parents).  Gabe loses his wife.....and says "FUCK it all".  Speaking from experience, I can relate to that.
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: crisis on June 09, 2011, 10:48:32 PM
But Dracula shows up the last few minutes in EVERY Castlevania game

If we fought him at the end of LoI then people would say it contradicts CVIII since Trevor was the first to battle him.

The only reason Gabriel chose to become Dracula was because his enemies told him he would. Even after he clearly repents his sins & BEGS God to forgive him, probably a mere hours later he forgets all that & becomes a vampire anyway. That's pretty much it.

Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: thernz on June 09, 2011, 10:54:54 PM
I thought Gabriel just wanted to talk to his wife again.
Then she lies to him and he goes on a globe-trotting quest to save the world, oh, and talk to her again because Zobek said the latter was an added bonus. NICE.

He was more like, "well that was for nothing :-\" than "FUCK it all" after the ordeal imo. Then he became Dracula out of accident because, like, he needed to. Only person around with a high enough power level to save the world and all.
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: DarkPrinceAlucard on June 09, 2011, 11:11:21 PM
The only main reason I need for prefering IGA's origin CV story (LOI) over Cox's (LOS) is that Iga kept the belmont vs dracula story intact and did not pull a asspull such as making a Belmont into Dracula for no apparent reason.

Gab becoming Dracula really just felt forced and out of nowhere.

Belmonts should be seperate from Dracula simple as that.

And by Cox changing that made me really dislike his origin story greatly since I am one of those fans who love the Belmont vs Dracula turmoil and believe that it should never be messed with.
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: Renonsgoods on June 09, 2011, 11:16:25 PM
But Dracula shows up the last few minutes in EVERY Castlevania game

Hey, I'm just putting that out there for all the Mathias lovers out there that like to harp on how lame Satan's appearance at the end of LoS was.  Point is...Mathias' entry onto the stage in LoI was no different.

Quote
If we fought him at the end of LoI then people would say it contradicts CVIII since Trevor was the first to battle him.

Umm, what the hell does that have anything to do with it?  Are you really trying to argue that legions of CV fans would have had a fit if we'd actually gotten a chance to see Leon and Mathias lock swords???  Besides which, he wasn't Dracula yet at that time...so that argument still doesn't hold water.

Quote
The only reason Gabriel chose to become Dracula was because his enemies told him he would. Even after he clearly repents his sins & BEGS God to forgive him, probably a mere hours later he forgets all that & becomes a vampire anyway. That's pretty much it.


Gabe became what he became because of the steps he took leading up to that point.  I don't think he decided to become a dark lord because someone told him that it would be a good idea.  And yea, he tried ONE LAST TIME to be God's good little foot soldier...and repent....but his reward ended up being "Hey, thanks for smiting the Devil for me.......your wife is staying dead though".  Really, is it THAT hard to believe he'd get pissed after that?  Remember, Mathias didn't go on some big trek to somehow bring his wife back from the dead...only to have the whole thing end up being a big FU at the conclusion.  His wife just died, and he goes on some kind of rampage against God for it.  IMO his motivations for being pissed at God and/or the world just weren't as strong as Gabe's precisely because Gabe had the rug yanked out from under him despite all his good work and intentions.

At the end of the day, we're all just arguing a personal preference.  And in reality, all this "Gabe vs Mathias" stuff is really just a "Lament vs Lords" debate.  People who preferred LoI are going to support the Mathias Drac.....people who preferred LoS are going to support Gabriel Drac.  Simple as that...no matter how we dress up the poll questions


[/quote]
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: Flame on June 09, 2011, 11:41:21 PM
Quote
At the end of the day, we're all just arguing a personal preference.  And in reality, all this "Gabe vs Mathias" stuff is really just a "Lament vs Lords" debate.  People who preferred LoI are going to support the Mathias Drac.....people who preferred LoS are going to support Gabriel Drac.  Simple as that...no matter how we dress up the poll questions

/thread
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: Puwexil on June 09, 2011, 11:44:12 PM
People's opinions about video games aligning with their opinions about major characters in said story-intensive video games? Why, I never.
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: crisis on June 10, 2011, 12:08:30 AM
Quote
Are you really trying to argue that legions of CV fans would have had a fit if we'd actually gotten a chance to see Leon and Mathias lock swords???

Sure, because the canon dictates that Trevor was and will always be the first Belmont to battle him. If IGA changed that by making "pretty-boy Leon" the first, there'd be even more of a fracture with how the fans feel about his decisions.

Or do you mean like a friendly spar or something??
 
Quote
Gabe became what he became because of the steps he took leading up to that point.

Same thing can be said for Matthias. He went on a big trek during his fighting in the Crusades in God's favor. When he returned to a dead wife, he took it as a big FU, too. Only difference between the two is we don't get to play this part of his life. So he DID get his rug yanked from underneath him, just in a different fashion.

Quote
At the end of the day, we're all just arguing a personal preference.

omg no shit. that's what forum debating is for!
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: whitedragon_nall on June 10, 2011, 12:30:52 AM
Hey, I'm just putting that out there for all the Mathias lovers out there that like to harp on how lame Satan's appearance at the end of LoS was.  Point is...Mathias' entry onto the stage in LoI was no different.

While what you say is true, we at least knew of Mathias beforehand. He didn't just come out of no where like Satan, unless I missed something mentioning him. I always expected Mathias to show up, but that's because I knew of all the Elisabetha stuff before I played the game. Both Dracula reveals were very predictable to me.

My reasons for liking Mathias over Gabe are, admittedly, a bit shallow. When it comes to villains, I prefer smarter, calculating enemies over enemies that are simply all power.....and Gabe just came off as the "power" type.
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: Renonsgoods on June 10, 2011, 12:39:33 AM
. Both Dracula reveals were very predictable to me.

Same for me.  As I said, picking Gabe over Mathias is mostly a "lesser of two evils" type of thing.  I really didn't care for either as an origin for the king of vampires.  Bram Stoker's version trumps both IMO. I liked Drac alot more when he didn't have an origin in the CV continuity.

Quote
My reasons for liking Mathias over Gabe are, admittedly, a bit shallow. When it comes to villains, I prefer smarter, calculating enemies over enemies that are simply all power.....and Gabe just came off as the "power" type.

I can respect that.
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: Renonsgoods on June 10, 2011, 12:42:26 AM
People's opinions about video games aligning with their opinions about major characters in said story-intensive video games? Why, I never.

Actually, it being the other way around was my point, but I'm glad you got the gist of it.
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: whitedragon_nall on June 10, 2011, 12:49:46 AM
Bram Stoker's version trumps both IMO.

Yes. He kinda creeped me out in the novel...in a VERY good way. He seemed like such a nice guy when Jonathan first moved in, then....well, you know what happens.
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: Renonsgoods on June 10, 2011, 12:59:43 AM
Sure, because the canon dictates that Trevor was and will always be the first Belmont to battle him. If IGA changed that by making "pretty-boy Leon" the first, there'd be even more of a fracture with how the fans feel about his decisions.

Why would having a fight between Leon and Mathias cause a riot amongst CV fans???  Like I said......Mathias was NOT Dracula at that point.  Having him show up, spew his diabolical plot Scooby Doo style, and then run out before Leon could get some satisfaction from him just doesn't lend him any badass credibility IMO.  But as I said, it does stay in holding with the kind of Dracula he eventually turned into...so I guess I can't knock Iga for keeping him in character.

Quote
Or do you mean like a friendly spar or something??

I mean a physical conflict between two former friends turned enemies.  Obviously it wouldn't have been a fight to the death, but having some sort of battle (no matter how short) would have gone a long way towards showing how committed to his plans and beliefs he really was.
 
Quote
Same thing can be said for Matthias. He went on a big trek during his fighting in the Crusades in God's favor. When he returned to a dead wife, he took it as a big FU, too. Only difference between the two is we don't get to play this part of his life. So he DID get his rug yanked from underneath him, just in a different fashion.

That's stretching it a bit I think.  His wife died while he was on duty.  Not quite the same as having someone make you kill your wife without your knowledge, tell you you can bring her back if you retrieve a certain mask, and then have it all be for naught after you've completed your task, piled up a mountain of dead foes, and defeated the Devil.  You can make an argument that Mathias took it just as hard as Gabe after all that, but I'd say that just furthers the point that he was more "emo" than Gabe ever had been.

Quote
omg no shit. that's what forum debating is for!

/smartass retort

Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: Tanatra on June 10, 2011, 01:02:47 AM
At the end of the day, we're all just arguing a personal preference.  And in reality, all this "Gabe vs Mathias" stuff is really just a "Lament vs Lords" debate.  People who preferred LoI are going to support the Mathias Drac.....people who preferred LoS are going to support Gabriel Drac.  Simple as that...no matter how we dress up the poll questions

True, which is why debating such things is a huge waste of time. Seriously you guys, go outside and talk to girls or something.
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: whitedragon_nall on June 10, 2011, 01:15:50 AM
I think the only way we'll solve this is with Castlevania Judgment 2. Only playable characters will be Mathias and Gabe and it'll include an online mode that keeps track of the win/loss ratio between the 2 characters. What do ya say? I think I'm onto something here.
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: Renonsgoods on June 10, 2011, 01:17:46 AM
I think the only way we'll solve this is with Castlevania Judgment 2. Only playable characters will be Mathias and Gabe and it'll include an online mode that keeps track of the win/loss ratio between the 2 characters. What do ya say? I think I'm onto something here.

Pure.....WIN. ;D
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: crisis on June 10, 2011, 01:21:15 AM
Quote
Why would having a fight between Leon and Mathias cause a riot amongst CV fans???

Because we riot about every little thing as it is, from hairstyles to the way a character walks. I'm not necessarily objecting to the idea, it woulda been pretty neat be it gameplay-wise or a cutscene. It's just the fact that IGA wanted to keep Trevor the first to fight him, and I guess I agree with him, which is another reason why Legends was disregarded.

Quote
Not quite the same as having someone make you kill your wife without your knowledge,

Just thought of something, how the hell did Zobek get him to put on the mask in the first place?? I don't think that was ever shown/explained. Just does more to prove the whole "you're just a puppet" thing Gabriel has going on.

Quote
/smartass retort

Oh come on, do you not see the TROLLMEISTER award??  :P


Quote
True, which is why debating such things is a huge waste of time. Seriously you guys, go outside and talk to girls or something.

Nobody's forcing you to sit down and read through our posts.
..or maybe somebody is? Wanna talk about it?
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: Flame on June 10, 2011, 01:28:09 AM
Quote
..or maybe somebody is? Wanna talk about it?

I-It's Shaft... He... violated my mind and forced me to sit here and read posts.
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: Renonsgoods on June 10, 2011, 01:40:09 AM

Just thought of something, how the hell did Zobek get him to put on the mask in the first place?? I don't think that was ever shown/explained. Just does more to prove the whole "you're just a puppet" thing Gabriel has going on.


I don't know either.  It was a horrible and unnecessary plot element IMO.  MS could have done so much better with the plot if they had followed the KISS protocol.  Lots of little things that, if had been done a bit different, could have made the whole story so much better.  After playing Reverie and Resurrection, I'm now in firm belief that ALL the narration should have been done by Gabriel as an internal monologue...rather than by Zobek (which just came off as...wierd...after a while).  It could have given more insight into Gabriel's mental/emotional state throughout the game, instead of us having to extrapolate how all those events were effecting him.  If you're going to have the first Belmont make a descent that leads him to become Dracula....you WANT to make that transformation as transparent to the player as humanly possible.
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: thernz on June 10, 2011, 01:41:36 AM
I bet they only did the narration thing because Patrick Stewart wanted more lines. 8)
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: darkwzrd4 on June 10, 2011, 01:48:28 AM
I don't know either.  It was a horrible and unnecessary plot element IMO.  MS could have done so much better with the plot if they had followed the KISS protocol.  Lots of little things that, if had been done a bit different, could have made the whole story so much better.  After playing Reverie and Resurrection, I'm now in firm belief that ALL the narration should have been done by Gabriel as an internal monologue...rather than by Zobek (which just came off as...wierd...after a while).  It could have given more insight into Gabriel's mental/emotional state throughout the game, instead of us having to extrapolate how all those events were effecting him.  If you're going to have the first Belmont make a descent that leads him to become Dracula....you WANT to make that transformation as transparent to the player as humanly possible.
Yeah, Gabe should have been doing it the whole game.  It would add a lot more depth to his character.  Plus, Zobek doesn't know what's going through Gabe's head.
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: Renonsgoods on June 10, 2011, 02:30:51 AM
I bet they only did the narration thing because Patrick Stewart wanted more lines. 8)

Yea, they definitely wanted to make Stewart a headliner act for this game.  IMO, if they absolutely HAD to have him narrate, they should NOT have had him do it as one of the game's characters.....ESPECIALLY not one that has a villainous destiny within the story arc.  Regardless, having Gabriel do the narration would still have worked loads better. His prologues for the DLC chapters is evidence to this IMO. 
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: Chernabogue on June 10, 2011, 07:37:35 AM
What if is Gabriel's true name, as he decided to change it, was Mathias Cronqvist? That'd be interesting.
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: Munchy on June 10, 2011, 09:19:59 AM
I bet they only did the narration thing because Patrick Stewart wanted more lines. 8)

I'd say it's more that they wanted more lines from him. He was probably the biggest star on the list.

And honestly, he couldn't not have cringed at a lot of what he had to read. Though like with most actors, I like to think that he at least had fun with it.

My main beef with Zobek's character is that being who he is, his weapon should have been a scythe, goddammit.
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: Flame on June 10, 2011, 01:32:51 PM
Quote
Just thought of something, how the hell did Zobek get him to put on the mask in the first place??

Maybe he put it on him while he was sleeping. it's possible. besides, he's this lord of Darkness, he has dark powers that he can no doubt use to influence Gabriel. he could have done any number of things. many including spells and such.
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: X on June 10, 2011, 04:52:13 PM
I-It's Shaft... He... violated my mind and forced me to sit here and read posts.

LOL!

Auugh! You weak-minded fool! -Jabba the Hut
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: Mike Belmont on June 10, 2011, 10:10:55 PM
Oh, that Shaft...

As mentioned in LoI plot, I see that game more Castlevania, ´cause you fight previously with Walter. I mean, you have a Dracula-esque fight, isn´t? Then, the powers of Walter as a vampire passed to Mathias by a stone, am I correct? I have to agree that I prefer a Dracula´s origin like a true vampire: by bitting or being bitting by a vampire, as Gabriel was. But, in LoS means, I simply don´t like that the protagonist turns eventually in the all-Castlevanias main villian. Also, if the last boss in LoS were Dracula, I would accepted as a real CV game. Why? All the 25 years with the same story dictates that. Am I tired of that same plot again and again? No, of course not. Because that´s the essence of Castlevania. And I see the epilogue of LoS as a tipic cliffhanger ending in most of recent Hollywood movies: to ensure a must buy/play sequel.

Maybe Castlevania will follow the same destiny as Megaman/Rockman with all the Battle Network and Star Force games: selling copies only by having the franchise name in it. Poor Megaman :'(.
Title: Re: Which Dracula's origins do you prefer? SPOILER ALERT!!!
Post by: Vampire Killer on June 10, 2011, 10:15:09 PM
Regardless, having Gabriel do the narration would still have worked loads better. His prologues for the DLC chapters is evidence to this IMO. 

Agreed, would have been better to at least switch back and forth now and then. Some intros as Gabe, others as Zobek.


What if is Gabriel's true name, as he decided to change it, was Mathias Cronqvist? That'd be interesting.

HA! It probably is.