Castlevania Dungeon Forums
The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: Renonsgoods on May 21, 2011, 05:01:06 PM
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In the wake of all the feedback I've been reading on various forums (both positive and negative) in response to the arrival of LoS, I've been pondering whether an entirely new approach should be taken with this series moving forward. It's obvious that, for the most part, the original timeline has become over-mined...and a reboot is inevitably going to alienate alot of the core franchise fans. Perhaps it's time Konami consider handling Castlevania in the same way that Nintendo has handled the Legend of Zelda series in the past....each episode being it's own self-contained reimagining of the core legend. While there would still be a place for sequels and prequels, it would remove the burden on the dev team to try and make a story that fits into a pre-determined series of events. It would also remove the burden on the dev team to create a story that has to lend itself to future titles in order to be an accepted part of the franchise.
Another big reason I bring this up is because lately I've been thinking about how diluted the character of Dracula as a villain has become because of all the shenanigans that have gone on throughout the whole of this series. He's become something of a running gag, someone that the player really can't take seriously because we all know that he's just going to get resurrected AGAIN about 10 years after we put him down. Hell, he doesn't even get a chance to reach full power before coming back into the world to cause mayhem. It's almost a given that he won't be at the top of his potential when we stroll into his lavishly decorated thrown room. What kind of villain does that make him?
I'd like to see a new tale written for this franchise that really puts a spotlight on him as a truly masterful, monstrous foe. A title that acts as a sort of microcosm of the entire Castlevania series...taking its best elements, ideas, and characters...and fusing them into a single, concise game. I want a CV game that feels like it has a beginning, middle, and end...with Dracula's rise as a dark lord being the prologue, and his demise at the hero's hands being the conclusion (as in.....NO more resurrections afterwards). I'd like to see a Dracula that isn't some moody bloke from the 11th century, but one that is a creative mixture of the historical Dracula, the Bram Stoker legend, and CV's most famous end boss. Give him some presence in the course of the game's plot...something more than to just be a glorified final obstacle for the player to overcome. I'm not saying that the storytelling has to become as dominate within the game as MGS, but we really need a story that better defines Dracula as a great villain...and makes players anticipate their inevitable battle with him come game's end. This is something that I just don't feel that any of the 3D Vanias, to date, has managed to do (and in a sense, neither have many of the 2D titles).
I don't know. I guess I'm just tired of the half-baked plots and superficial characters. I'm not concerned about the future of the 2D series, as it has a well established formula that isn't hard to build on (plus the stories in those games are of little consequence to the gameplay). But if this series is to blaze forward into the HD gaming future, it needs a fair bit more creativity thrown at it. I think all four of the 3D titles have done some great things individually, but at the same time all have have featured blatant weaknesses that lent them to deserved criticisms. There just appears to be too much "market research" going on here and not enough artistic license. It just seems that Castlevania is slowly falling victim to the corporate machine...whether it's telling the game devs what standards they have to adhere to, or telling them that they AREN'T allowed to do anything similar to what has been done in the past. I just have to wonder if the beancounters at Konami understand that it IS possible to produce a top-shelf 3D Vania project that fully honors its heritage without having to sacrifice creativity.
Just my thoughts here, guys. Not looking to start any flame wars or arguments. 8)
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You make a lot of good points, and I think this is for the best. The tension of one person versus an overwhelming, famous evil is what should be emphasized. As an aside, I think that CV64/LoD did some of that character building with Dracula in a way, having your progress tracked by other vampires or Death, and how he appears and taunts you in level 2 (the "miserable worm" line, etc).
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While I'm hesitant to admit it, you do have a point. The LoS story seemed a bit weak and the old cannon is a mess as far as the story goes. Between adding new games and removing some older ones from the cannon, it just doesn't come off as a cohesive story. Then again, that's the price for extending a story for more than 20 years and not creating it in order.
I do agree that a new approach is needed. The series doesn't even have to be that long and there can be more than one just make sure that each alternate CV series has something that distinguishes it from the others. Also, if this is going to be the case, the overall story should be written first and then the games can be made. In other words, start with the beginning (Dracula's rise to power), next have the middle (likely the origin of the Belmonts), and finally have the conclusion (the Belmonts invading the castle and destroying Dracula).
The problem with the old cannon is that individuals like IGA would come up with an idea for a game first and then find a way to shoehorn it into the series, which is a little counter intuitive to me.
This is just my opinion of course.
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Perhaps it's time Konami consider handling Castlevania in the same way that Nintendo has handled the Legend of Zelda series in the past....each episode being it's own self-contained reimagining of the core legend
I've always thought that the early Castlevania games already had an approach very similar to the legend of Zelda. Each game was a self contained episode of the Belmont clan’s legendary battle against Dracula, just like each Zelda game is another episode of Link's battle against evil which spans several lifetimes.
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I agree on the handling of Dracula in the old timeline, they basically turned him into a childrens chewtoy (hell he was basically BEATEN by children.)
I wanna see Dracula become a total monster, no more sitting in the top tower's watching his monster's get effortlessly massacared by a man with a whip. I wanna see him fly down and take a little baby boy from a village and impale him on a pike and show a Belmont as an example to not fuck with him (too far?)
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First of all, the new CV should be 2D. Beautiful graphics, Ayami Kojima`s art for promotion, music in the same style as past games (possibly Michiru Yamane). For the approach, I would say that Ecclesia handled it very well. It was epic and it had sadness in it. Dracula should hurt someone close to the main hero, do much evil etc., not just appear to say things, agreed. The game must have no humor and jokes, like POR and DOS had. That kills the game`s mood. I would very much like the 1999 game with Julius. If it is as good as Ecclesia, it would be enough for me. I don`t expect miracles. I love CV as it was..Symphony, Aria, Harmony..if it is in that style, with a new good story, nice graphics/art and enjoyable music, I will be more than satisfied.
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I'm not even sure if I want to see IGA stuff once again, but I would really like to see someone do something that's good. I'm kind of interested in seeing what he can do with another serious entry (meaning no fighting games or download games), because I really do love Order of Ecclesia.
As far as how to handle the timeline... I don't know. I think Castlevania's specific chronology is one of the hallmarks of the series and one of the fascinating points about it. I understand there is so much stuff now that it can sort of be hard to keep up or take seriously, but there is also something to be said for not rebooting the series after 20 plus years. I always had respect for Green Lantern comic books because ever since 1959, the series has never, EVER been restarted, at least not to where the history is wiped out and the story begins again. But yeah, I understand all the baggage that comes along with something like that, and I know that Castlevania is a much less open ended thing, so it's much easier to write yourself in a corner.
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I agree Renonsgoods. CV needs to be made anew without all the nonsense that IGA threw in there. It needs a badass Dracula (Vlad III type and not the Mathias pussy), new Belmonts (Both male AND female lead roles), etc.
-X
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I don't know how you'd choose the word "pussy" to summarize Mathias' character. He's a ruthless master manipulator out to defy God. What a fucking pussy.
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I agree Renonsgoods. CV needs to be made anew without all the nonsense that IGA threw in there. It needs a badass Dracula (Vlad III type and not the Mathias pussy), new Belmonts (Both male AND female lead roles), etc.
-X
Well uh
http://images.wikia.com/castlevania/images/8/84/OoE_Dracula.JPG (http://images.wikia.com/castlevania/images/8/84/OoE_Dracula.JPG)
How is this not badass?
Unless you mean we need to stick with angsty Dracula hiding in a church in downtown New York City. I feel ridiculous just writing that sentence.
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Box art does not a badass Dracula character make. My point is that in the realm of the 3D titles, Dracula needs to be something more than just a posterboy for evil. He needs to BE evil. He can't just show up at the two minute warning and generate the whole of his "badassness" by spewing a few ham-fisted lines just prior to the final battle. That stuff works fine for the 2D titles...it does not fly for the 3D ones. I want him to be an underlying presence throughout much of the game...a constant reminder to the player of why he/she is bothering to make this bloody trek through a dark keep to put this monster in the ground. IMO, there's not much difference between being "angsty" and "running ones mouth without a whole lot to back it up". Both traits could be used to describe the Dracula that we've been plagued with since the SotN days.
And sorry, but I still think it's a terrible idea to drag the character of Dracula away from his roots. I can't stand it when movies or games try to establish him as something that predates the historical or Bram Stoker version. The idea of planting his origins as something completely different back during the 11th century is something that LoI and LoS both got wrong as far as I'm concerned. It just felt like a very artificial move made purely to try and make room for additional tales in the timeline. Why can't Drac just be the very notorious Impaler of Transylvanian fame? The idea of such a man gaining access to immense, demonic powers sounds loads better than a simple holy crusader fallen from grace that gains lots of power via some random powerful artifact.
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...you do realize Dracula started jawboning during his bishonen Rondo of Blood appearance, right?
There wasn't really anything highly intimidating about Dracula in any of the earlier CV titles other than the fact he was the final boss and thus the hardest unless you're considering Simon's Quest. To say that Dracula has to be hardcore for the sake of being gritty and raw misses the point entirely. It's like when people reminisce about the good ol' mature days of Castlevania, until you actually sit down and play it. You don't play CV1, nod to yourself, and think "yes. this homage to monster-mash is a mature game for mature gamers."
Dracula has never displayed 'evil-ness' in the entire series other than being a cartoony villain with cartoon-like schemes, like the rest of the monster cast. The series started out as a loving nod to Hammer Horror films and their inherent goofiness.
The closest Dracula has ever come to displaying 'true' evil was in CVIII, when he went from Dracula to a dictator who also happened to be Dracula. In fact, it was SotN and the other games that tried to flesh him out more so he wasn't just The Final Boss who occasionally engaged in cartoon schemes like conquering the world or kidnapping damsels like Annette or Simon's wife in Haunted Castle. Were they silly? Sure, and they were continuing the tradition. Castlevania has always been a tongue-in-cheek series. Wishing for a raw and adult and mature Dracula would certainly be a change of pace, because - before and after SotN- we never had that before.
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Or maybe CV Dracula pretended to be Vlad III during CVIII...
Besides that, I think the connection between Stoker's Dracula and Vlad III is mostly name-only at most. There are references, but they're just vague pseudo-historical flair. You know, considering that Stoker renamed the vampire to Dracula after reading a book that had his name.
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Well, understand...I'm addressing this series' direction so far as the 3D titles are concerned. I'm well aware of how inconsequential these proceedings are in regards to the 2d titles of both the past and the future. You are very much correct that Castlevania started out as little more than a lighthearted ode to classical monster flicks of yesteryear. And like I said, that direction suits the 2D style games very much. But in order for this franchise to successfully move forward in the 3D realm it's going to have to take itself more seriously than the older 2D games did. It's going to have to have a much better fleshed out villain. It's going to have to have a plot that intrigues without feeling overdone or overly derivative. Castlevania has to evolve in order to make it work well in the next gen crowd. That doesn't necessarily mean throwing out everything that made it work to begin with (quite the opposite actually), but it does mean finding new ways of using those basic elements so that they work appropriately within the scope of a modern third person action-platformer.
So, yea. We didn't need a scary Drac for, say, CVIII or SotN...but I think we DO need one for a top notch next gen Castlevania. And even if we don't NEED such a Dracula......wouldn't you want one (as opposed to a cliched cartoon character in an evening suit)?
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And sorry, but I still think it's a terrible idea to drag the character of Dracula away from his roots. I can't stand it when movies or games try to establish him as something that predates the historical or Bram Stoker version. The idea of planting his origins as something completely different back during the 11th century is something that LoI and LoS both got wrong as far as I'm concerned. It just felt like a very artificial move made purely to try and make room for additional tales in the timeline. Why can't Drac just be the very notorious Impaler of Transylvanian fame? The idea of such a man gaining access to immense, demonic powers sounds loads better than a simple holy crusader fallen from grace that gains lots of power via some random powerful artifact.
Completely agree here.
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Thernz already pointed out that Bram Stoker's Dracula had a very loose connection to Vlad the Impaler. As in, they were both Romanian. That was about it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlad_the_Impaler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlad_the_Impaler)
I mean if you were going to have a historically accurate Vlad, Renonsgoods, you're not going to have Castlevania. You're going to have an Ottoman Wars simulator. The entire deal with Vlad and blood was just the myth that he soaked his bread in the blood of his impaled enemies to gloat at them. Besides the myth, Vlad was just an Orthodox Christian prince battling against Mehmed II's attempts to expand the Ottoman Empire deeper into Eastern Europe.
I mean that'd be cool, if this was the Total War series.
How do you gain access to immense, demonic power? Beyond living the bloody life of a warrior in medieval times, there wasn't anything really demonic about Vlad. He was, after all, a Christian. I highly doubt you get demonic power from establishing monasteries and improving agricultural output among the peasantry. Do you become 'evil' after you level up by killing so many Turks?
Or we can have Bram Stoker's hardcore, love-sick allegory for feeling guilty about sex.
And that's certainly not very gritty!
Anyways, to suggest that Castlevania needs to take itself seriously if it wants to be successful in 3D really doesn't make any sense. Look how successful grim, serious DMC2 was compared to the campy DMC1 or DMC3. Serious Dante in Serious Sequel nearly offed the franchise by the second game. People wanted the pizza-eating, "FLOCK OFF FEATHER-FACE" Dante, and DMC1 and 3 are regarded as some of the finest 3D action games today. The first one certainly rendered LoI hollow.
Castlevania really isn't God of War with its blood and admittedly unaware corny plot. Castlevania shouldn't have to imitate other 3D action games and desperately try to whore itself out to Rated M for Mature people. A successful series is built upon its own merits; namely how fun it is, not by how much gore it has or how seriously it takes itself.
If Castlevania is going to have a successful life in 3D, it needs to be fun. It needs to be addicting. It needs to be designed well. If Castlevania fulfills those criteria, then that will be a successful 3D game.
However, if Castlevania made another nod to Nosferatu (besides Count Olrox) by giving Dracula his repulsive characteristics rather than a romantic, gentlemanly count, then that'd be a great start to a more threatening Dracula. On the flip side, you could also wind up with naked blue Dracula from the comics.
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I don't think a Nosferatu look fits Dracula very much. : (
Ecclesia had it right. Dracula is gentlemanly and endearing at first, but when he loses his cool, he shows his demonic side. Maybe if this happens sooner and his face also goes demonic (a la Chronicles), it would be even better.
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Dracula needs to be arrogant but at the same time, well mannered. In other words, a lot like how he was in OoE. He was a gentleman and was actually toying with Shanoa. He is a "noble" after all. He should be calm yet evil. And, if his opponent starts to get the upper hand, he should be like: "Well, your skilled, but you still far from capable at defeating me. Allow me to show you what I am truly capable of." At this point, he would start using stronger attacks. Also, he should stop with the old teleport/fireball routine. He needs to move around more without teleporting and possibly use a weapon like a sword. Whether armed or not, he needs to move faster.
I mean of all the Dracula fights in the series, the second phase of the OoE battle was my favorite. He walked around, grabbed you, and summoned both wolves and bats. It the most challenging fight without him transforming. Phase one of a Dracula battle should be like that and then he transforms in phase two. This would make the Dracula battle more challenging and a lot more fun.
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What the ultimate Dracula battle would be like, ideally....
Just like Dark Wizard said, the first form of OoE Dracula we fight, but with a mix of some of his attacks from PoR, like when he closes his cape then releases a ton of blasts in the air. You try to jump over him & he swings at you. After about 7 minutes of rigorous battle, he get serious & advances towards you, like in OoE, except his techniques are a lot more deadly (he can even use his "Soul Steal" technique). Summoning wolves, swarms of bats, ya know? If Belmont manages to survive this round, he then says "playtime is over" and absorbs an enormous amount of dark energy, transforming into a giant bat demon, but not too big (the room will still be present). I like the idea of Drac using an "instant kill," except something more difficult to avoid than his PoR "smash you with by batwings" maneuver. He will summon demons occasionally, just like he does in Symphony, and sometimes he will even kill them to drink their blood & replenish his health. Once Belmont overcomes this series of attacks, he transforms AGAIN, only this time the entire room changes like the Symphony vortex or the CotM dimension and Dracula shows his most demonic form yet, something the size of Menace except it'll look more like a Dragon.
This entire battle will take almost a half an hour to finish. ;D
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What the ultimate Dracula battle would be like, ideally....
Just like Dark Wizard said, the first form of OoE Dracula we fight, but with a mix of some of his attacks from PoR, like when he closes his cape then releases a ton of blasts in the air. You try to jump over him & he swings at you. After about 7 minutes of rigorous battle, he get serious & advances towards you, like in OoE, except his techniques are a lot more deadly (he can even use his "Soul Steal" technique). Summoning wolves, swarms of bats, ya know? If Belmont manages to survive this round, he then says "playtime is over" and absorbs an enormous amount of dark energy, transforming into a giant bat demon, but not too big (the room will still be present). I like the idea of Drac using an "instant kill," except something more difficult to avoid than his PoR "smash you with by batwings" maneuver. He will summon demons occasionally, just like he does in Symphony, and sometimes he will even kill them to drink their blood & replenish his health. Once Belmont overcomes this series of attacks, he transforms AGAIN, only this time the entire room changes like the Symphony vortex or the CotM dimension and Dracula shows his most demonic form yet, something the size of Menace except it'll look more like a Dragon.
This entire battle will take almost a half an hour to finish. ;D
That would be EPIC and if the 1999 game is ever made, that is how the final battle should be.
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IPerhaps it's time Konami consider handling Castlevania in the same way that Nintendo has handled the Legend of Zelda series in the past....each episode being it's own self-contained reimagining of the core legend. While there would still be a place for sequels and prequels, it would remove the burden on the dev team to try and make a story that fits into a pre-determined series of events.
Don't know if anyone mentioned this before, but... I've done a lot of research into the Legend of Zelda and each episode is most definitely not a reimagining. Miyamoto has been quoted as stating that there is a master timeline for the series. Thus meaning that each Legend of Zelda game does, in fact place, the burden on the dev team. However, don't think of it so much as to force the story to fit the pre-determined series of events, but rather the burden is simply not to contradict what has already been established in said timeline.
It would also remove the burden on the dev team to create a story that has to lend itself to future titles in order to be an accepted part of the franchise.
I don't think they worry about this, rather it is the next team that has to deal with what was established by the previous team and the original timeline document that was previously developed.
But at any rate, back on topic. The idea you present is an interesting one, but I think it would better fit a game based on Bram Stoker's novel than a Castlevania game. Having constant titles with no ties what-so-ever to the previous one makes it difficult to weave a coherent story in an action-adventure series that is inherently short in comparison to the average RPG or full-on adventure game like LoZ. But, you know, the early games in the series were not so unlike the LoZ approach with different generations of heroes tied only by their heritage and their foe. It's just that they didn't have much plot to do anything with back then. It was when all this plot started seeping in that anyone even cared about continuity and story development. And the developers found themselves with no idea what to do to tie in the old and the new. In the end a reboot was a good idea, but what we got was a completely different game with castlevania stuff shoehorned in. I really think they should have let Cox remake CV1 and be done with it... without any input from Hideo Kojima.
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Thernz already pointed out that Bram Stoker's Dracula had a very loose connection to Vlad the Impaler. As in, they were both Romanian. That was about it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlad_the_Impaler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlad_the_Impaler)
I mean if you were going to have a historically accurate Vlad, Renonsgoods, you're not going to have Castlevania. You're going to have an Ottoman Wars simulator. The entire deal with Vlad and blood was just the myth that he soaked his bread in the blood of his impaled enemies to gloat at them. Besides the myth, Vlad was just an Orthodox Christian prince battling against Mehmed II's attempts to expand the Ottoman Empire deeper into Eastern Europe.
I don't believe I ever said I wanted CV's Drac to be the historical Drac. What I said was that I'd like to see a Dracula that is a creative mixture of the historical Drac, Bram Stoker's Drac, and CV's Drac. A creative blend. I just don't want him to be some ancient guy from long ago that just happens to end up with the name Dracula.
How do you gain access to immense, demonic power? Beyond living the bloody life of a warrior in medieval times, there wasn't anything really demonic about Vlad. He was, after all, a Christian. I highly doubt you get demonic power from establishing monasteries and improving agricultural output among the peasantry. Do you become 'evil' after you level up by killing so many Turks?
Perhaps one could gain such dark powers by becoming such a destructive, obsessive tyrant that it gets the attention of demonic forces. Imagine what the devil or his ilk could teach you if they thought you had potential. ;) Sure sounds alot cooler than becoming an all powerful vampire cuz you snagged a magic jewel with some dead guy's soul stuck in it. That'd work great......if this were Indiana Jones.
Anyways, to suggest that Castlevania needs to take itself seriously if it wants to be successful in 3D really doesn't make any sense. Look how successful grim, serious DMC2 was compared to the campy DMC1 or DMC3. Serious Dante in Serious Sequel nearly offed the franchise by the second game. People wanted the pizza-eating, "FLOCK OFF FEATHER-FACE" Dante, and DMC1 and 3 are regarded as some of the finest 3D action games today. The first one certainly rendered LoI hollow.
I'll agree with you on DMC, but I don't care to see the silly Jonathan Morris antics being portrayed in full 3D HD glory. I don't mind the camp for the 2D games. I just don't want it for the 3D ones. This series is ripe for the making of a great, dark, gothic 3D action-platformer. Making the hero a wise-cracking cartoon character that has to fight a digital Bela Lugosi just doesn't sound like a recipe for success to me. A great 3d Castlevania should be equally capable of satisfying old fans and capturing new ones.
Castlevania really isn't God of War with its blood and admittedly unaware corny plot. Castlevania shouldn't have to imitate other 3D action games and desperately try to whore itself out to Rated M for Mature people. A successful series is built upon its own merits; namely how fun it is, not by how much gore it has or how seriously it takes itself.
I whole heartedly agree that it doesn't need to imitate anyone else nor be M rated just for the sake of gaining audience. But implying that it can't have blood, be dark, or do some things that other games have done before (but hopefully better) is equally unnecessary. Like you said, if the game is well done and fun to play...none of these elements will be to its demerit.
If Castlevania is going to have a successful life in 3D, it needs to be fun. It needs to be addicting. It needs to be designed well. If Castlevania fulfills those criteria, then that will be a successful 3D game.
I fully agree.
However, if Castlevania made another nod to Nosferatu (besides Count Olrox) by giving Dracula his repulsive characteristics rather than a romantic, gentlemanly count, then that'd be a great start to a more threatening Dracula. On the flip side, you could also wind up with naked blue Dracula from the comics.
I think there's plenty of room for something that fullfills both your and my criteria for a good Dracula villain. And I'm sure it can be done without having to resort to mutated space vampires. If people can accept a Dracula that got his start as a moody fallen knight stealing a magic stone from a powerful vampire, I'm sure they find room to love a Dracula that is a sadistic, evil tyrant that then became an all powerful vampire via an alliance with demonic forces. Besides, as we all know...Dracula has always had two faces...sometimes even three. ;) In the end, I just want a Dracula that commands respect and fear, and not just cuz he can be cordial in polite conversation.
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Don't know if anyone mentioned this before, but... I've done a lot of research into the Legend of Zelda and each episode is most definitely not a reimagining. Miyamoto has been quoted as stating that there is a master timeline for the series.
I seem to remember an article for an interview with Miyamoto way back in the early 90's where he stated that each Zelda was meant to be its own distinct legend...not the sequel of the game that came before it. It's for this reason that I believe the Zelda timeline is a more recently developed marketing ploy. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong....doesn't change the concept I'm after.
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Or we can have Bram Stoker's hardcore, love-sick allegory for feeling guilty about sex.
This was the 1994 movie. Not Bram Stoker's novel. The whole love theme was nothing more then Hollywood spin-doctoring. The Dracula from the book is a lot more hardcore then he was on film and almost, if not exactly matches the real life Vlad III. While it's true that there is much propaganda surrounding Vlad, he was a butcher and a hero. A hero to his people and a butcher to his enemies and those who broke the laws of Romania. Here's an interesting fact I recently discovered. Romania had a lot of impoverished people so Vlad invited them all for a banquet feast. He then promptly locked them all in the dining hall and set it ablaze, killing all and thus ending poverty. Nice Vlad, real smooth :P
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Perhaps one could gain such dark powers by becoming such a destructive, obsessive tyrant that it gets the attention of demonic forces. Imagine what the devil or his ilk could teach you if they thought you had potential. Sure sounds alot cooler than becoming an all powerful vampire cuz you snagged a magic jewel with some dead guy's soul stuck in it. That'd work great......if this were Indiana Jones.
So you prefer "i'm an evil bastard because i am, now i am Dracula thanks to Satan" as opposed to "i followed God's will but felt betrayed, now i will become Dracula and be a evil bastard"
To each his own, I guess.
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I seem to remember an article for an interview with Miyamoto way back in the early 90's where he stated that each Zelda was meant to be its own distinct legend...not the sequel of the game that came before it. It's for this reason that I believe the Zelda timeline is a more recently developed marketing ploy. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong....doesn't change the concept I'm after.
I remember that from when I was doing my research too. He had a later interview where he contradicts/retcons himself and states that there is a timeline. Besides that there are plenty of instances in the games themselves where earlier events are referenced. The new game coming out is specifically stated to be the earliest story on the timeline and will explain how the original ancestral Link comes to Hyrule and how the master sword is created. Wind Waker/Phantom Hourglass/Spirit Tracks are also specifically stated to be an alternate timeline caused by the events of Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask. They are most assuredly not retellings of the same legend.
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So you prefer "i'm an evil bastard because i am, now i am Dracula thanks to Satan" as opposed to "i followed God's will but felt betrayed, now i will become Dracula and be a evil bastard"
I am saying that I prefer a Dracula NOT inspired by Francis Ford Coppola's work. So, yes, I am saying that I prefer a Dracula that is a real monster, rather than one who is a tragic hero with a legitimate beef with God.
I remember that from when I was doing my research too. He had a later interview where he contradicts/retcons himself and states that there is a timeline. Besides that there are plenty of instances in the games themselves where earlier events are referenced. The new game coming out is specifically stated to be the earliest story on the timeline and will explain how the original ancestral Link comes to Hyrule and how the master sword is created. Wind Waker/Phantom Hourglass/Spirit Tracks are also specifically stated to be an alternate timeline caused by the events of Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask. They are most assuredly not retellings of the same legend.
Well like I said, the basic re-telling concept (which apparently the older Zelda's were meant to have) is what I'm after here, whether it still applies to the latter LoZ titles or not.
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I'm not sure what the problem is. Dracula shows a lot of traits with Vlad Tepes. He impalms people, and he was a warlord of some sorts before becoming evil in CVIII. What more is there to his character?
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A new approach needed for this series?
This.
http://2ch.jpn21.net/Imgboard/01/data/img20110525020505.jpg (http://2ch.jpn21.net/Imgboard/01/data/img20110525020505.jpg)
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This.
http://2ch.jpn21.net/Imgboard/01/data/img20110525020505.jpg (http://2ch.jpn21.net/Imgboard/01/data/img20110525020505.jpg)
Aaaahhhhh....now this is what i want to see as E3 reveal!!!
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http://2ch.jpn21.net/Imgboard/01/data/img20110525020505.jpg (http://2ch.jpn21.net/Imgboard/01/data/img20110525020505.jpg)
How would you like all your fans here...to know...that you wear a diaper...on your head!
-X
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Yknow, its funny that people say they want a new approach, but when they get something like Lords of Shadow, they complain.
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Just because it's a new approach doesn't mean it's the 'right' new approach.
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Just because it's a new approach doesn't mean it's the 'right' new approach.
That's really a matter of opinion.
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That's really a matter of opinion.
Indeed it is.
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Indeed it is.
Well it sounded awfully factual
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Well it sounded awfully factual
Didn't mean for it come across that way. It was a post made by me, therefore making it my opinion.
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Yknow, its funny that people say they want a new approach, but when they get something like Lords of Shadow, they complain.
I agree with this statement more than you'd think (given the topic of my thread). Too many CV fans like to complain about the way things are, but they immediately bitch whenever someone wants to change it. In a way, I think this thread really is just a response to all the moaning that has been going on over the new reboot...and the rigid opinions on how things should not change so much as the series goes forward. I understand that this series has to evolve if it wants to stay relevant enough to continue being marketable to Konami. Which means that things can't always stay exactly as they were in the glory days of the 2D titles. I actually think that LoS was a step in the right direction overall (my discontentment with the Dracula origins aside). It definitely needs some finetuning as far as some of the mechanical elements are concerned (QTE's, platforming, etc.), but the combat was sound and the environs were magnificent. The main thing the LoS series needs to make it stellar is an injection of some more traditional CV elements (characters, creatures, sub-weapons...). The recipe was great, it was just missing a few key ingredients (unlike LoI, which had alot of great CV ingredients...but a very poor game recipe).
P.S. Everything you just read...is my opinion. ;D
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way i see it, people say new approach. they get LoS which is a radically different approach, and they complain it isnt gothic enough.
So basically, they DONT want a new approach, they want the same thing. they want kojima artwork and aesthetic.
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You just hit the nail on the head. It's the driving force behind most of the detractors I've received in this thread. They don't want new, fresh, or evolved......they want CV1 or Rondo with 3D graphics.
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It's hard to call LoS a proper evolution of the classic style, given it's highly derivative approach
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P.S. Everything you just read...is my opinion. ;D
You don't HAVE to state it's your opinion. It's a given that, since it's coming from you, it's your opinion. See, talking about change, this sort of thing is the result of bad change. Remember there was a time when you could openly state your opinion and people KNEW it was your opinion? You had freedom to speak without constantly saying, "In my opinion...". Now, when ever someone takes an opinion the wrong way, they have to go on a rant regarding how it's JUST an opinion, not fact, blah blah blah. Just because you have change doesn't mean it's an evolved sort of change. Sometimes change de-evolves and limits thinking more than it was before. That's why change is a two edged sword, change CAN be good, but not all change IS good.
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It's hard to call LoS a proper evolution of the classic style, given it's highly derivative approach
I totally agree. Not to mention all of Cox's banter about how the game was supposed to be inspired by CV1/SCV4. The end product was nothing like either game except exclusively in that the core concept he came up with is similar.
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It's hard to call LoS a proper evolution of the classic style, given it's highly derivative approach
Well that's open to one's own interpretation. I might find Brink to be ridiculously derivative....someone else might think of it as "the future of shooters". I never said LoS was perfect. It does need some work for it to be a great 3D iteration of the franchise. But I still think it's a step in the right direction (given the direction the 3D games were going in previously). I'll put it this way: LoS turned out promising enough for me to give a possible sequel the benefit of the doubt. MS did enough good things with that game that a follow up could be phenomenal if the desired tweaks are made to the formula.
But as far as it being a linear action platformer featuring a hero with a chain weapon tearing through hordes of mythical creatures...then yea, I'd consider it a decent evolution of the classic style. Whether or not it's a proper one is a matter of opinion. But I should digress here, as I never intended for this to end up being yet another discussion of the failings or merits of Lords of Shadow. My topic here is what would be the ideal way for Konami to handle the 3D titles moving forward...and what kind of Dracula villain we'd like to see in those games. I already concede that what we wish for here is likely not going to be mirrored by the headmasters in Japan. But it's nice to brainstorm every once in a while.
You don't HAVE to state it's your opinion.
lol I know. That statement was meant as a jab towards the exchange that preceded my post. ;)
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yes, the series needs a new approach and I agree that LoS was a step in the right direction. The graphics were top notch and the main weapon was a chain whip. Plus, we go some swinging with the whip like in CV4. Not to mention that we got two of the original sub-weapons (dagger and holy water). Combat was rich and gave players some real options in terms of the variety of moves Gabriel had.
That being said, this approach still needs work. Combat shouldn't be shouldn't be limited to arena conditions and QTEs should be done away with. Not to mention that the current method of climbing all over titan bosses destroying magic seals to defeat them should be changed.
I know that this topic isn't about LoS, but it truly is a step in the right direction and instead of complaining about it, we should simply discuss what we think and hope that Konami and MS revise the LoS approach in a way we like. Remember, when taking a new approach, the first product done with the new approach is never perfect. This formula will likely need to be reworked several times before we are satisfied. And by the time that happens, fans will be calling for another new approach.
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LoS did SOME things right, I won't argue with that, but IGA's 3D-vanias and N64-Vanias also had some things THEY did right. Personally, unless we get a game that does everything right, it won't feel like the true "next step in CV evolution". What Cox and MS should've done was, take notes at what worked for the other two types of 3D CVs. It's really what IGA should've done with his 3D games too. It's something I fail why it isn't one of the more obvious of choices. When trying to conduct a study of what works and what doesn't, why don't these guys review some of the features? They have all the means to do so. They can conduct polls of what players liked of the N64-vanias and IGA-3Dvanias. It's kinda like the whole "conflicting story" bits. Unless they are making a major reboot, there's no reason for stories to conflict with each other. If I write a sequel to an existing game, I'm going to sure as hell do my research on the original game to make sure I don't look like a douche and fuck up with the details. I'd owe that much to the fans. Tossing in contradicting bits is just overall lazy. ;)
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I agree about dumping the more gimmicky crap like the Titans, QTEs, shimmying, and arena combat.
There should be more solid, thoughtful platforming, and definitely take ques from what the earlier 3D titles did right.
Above all they need to be more creative and not rely on every gimmick that every other game tried.
I think they should try to weave a few Castlevania stories for a while before going back to the Satan thing. I never really liked the Satan angle to begin with. Hell I don't even like that they used the name Satan. If they are trying to refer to God's adversary they should have called him Lucifer. Satan is a completely different character in the bible. But at any rate, they didn't really need to involve Satanifer in it. They could have left Zobek as the sole manipulator who eventually becomes one with Death and eventually is enslaved by Gabeula after his fall from grace. Right now there's too much sympathy for Gabeula for him to be an effective ultimate evil for the Belmonts to face. The main thing with Drac's character is his hatred of God. Gabe doesn't seem to really have that at all. In short, screw Kojima and his convoluted stories. There's nothing wrong with a more straight forward tale with just a few twists.
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Here's my template for a great 3D Castlevania:
Legacy of Darkness...level design, platforming style, and atmosphere
Lament of Innocence...boss fights and sub-weapon system
Curse of Darkness...equipment and loot system, entertaining cinematics
Lords of Shadow...overall character/environment art and detail, whip combat system
Add a decent but not overdone plot, a Dracula villain worthy of your apprehension, and a solid score consisting of some great arrangements of all the great CV tracks. Hit enter...burn disc...print money. 8)
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Here's my template for a great 3D Castlevania:
Legacy of Darkness...level design, platforming style, and atmosphere
Lament of Innocence...boss fights and sub-weapon system
Curse of Darkness...equipment and loot system, entertaining cinematics
Lords of Shadow...overall character/environment art and detail, whip combat system
Add a decent but not overdone plot, a Dracula villain worthy of your apprehension, and a solid score consisting of some great arrangements of all the great CV tracks. Hit enter...burn disc...print money. 8)
I agree with this.
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Here's my template for a great 3D Castlevania:
Legacy of Darkness...level design, platforming style, and atmosphere
Lament of Innocence...boss fights and sub-weapon system
Curse of Darkness...equipment and loot system, entertaining cinematics
Lords of Shadow...overall character/environment art and detail, whip combat system
Add a decent but not overdone plot, a Dracula villain worthy of your apprehension, and a solid score consisting of some great arrangements of all the great CV tracks. Hit enter...burn disc...print money. 8)
This looks like a great formula to me.
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I would be satisfied with a 2D game with higher budget than these last ones... I mean, look at this game here (Bloodrayne):
BloodRayne: Betrayal - Debut Trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNUxbVtni4g#ws)
Shit looks marvelous.
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I'd love to see a full glory, made from scratch 2D title on the consoles as much as the next Castlevaniac, but we just as soon face it: Konami doesn't care. The 2D games are pretty much doomed to handheld systems for the foreseeable future. Harmony of Despair and Rebirth show quite clearly how much they are willing to invest in a home console 2D title.
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I'd love to see a full glory, made from scratch 2D title on the consoles as much as the next Castlevaniac, but we just as soon face it: Konami doesn't care. The 2D games are pretty much doomed to handheld systems for the foreseeable future. Harmony of Despair and Rebirth show quite clearly how much they are willing to invest in a home console 2D title.
I agree. Adventure ReBirth has some recycled sprites used throughout the game and that tells me that Konami doesn't really care enough to put the effort into it's production budget. Things are no longer like they were back in the 80's. During that time, Konami would've been ripe with new programmers and artist just waiting to get their hands dirty. There wouldn't have been worries about budget cuts or ratings, etc. Back then they gave us awesome games and we were delighted to play them. Now... they're no different then Wall Street :P The innocence of the creators has been murdered by greed of profit.
-X
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"Perhaps the same can be said of all religions..."
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Yknow, its funny that people say they want a new approach, but when they get something like Lords of Shadow, they complain.
It's hard to please everyone.
I know lots of people liked Lords of Shadow and the other lot hated it. So, the question is: "What should game developers do to please both sides?"
I personally would love to see a new 3D Igavania.
Overall, Symphony of the Night had addicting gameplay with its numerous equipment and relics. I replayed that game so many times, each time I play it differently, right now, I am challenging the naked Alucard mode [no equipment / relics]. I also love the platforming of SoTN.
I also thought Lament of Innocence was a great game, save for the camera, why Konami decided to take away camera control is beyond me. I loved Walter's castle so much, the atmosphere is just magical.
And there's Lords of Shadow, no matter how much I hated Gabriel, I have to say, the puzzles in that game is pretty solid.
So my ideal game would probably have tons of items and relics for me to play with, SoTN-esque platforming, and a depressing castle for me to explore in with LoS-esque puzzles. Oh and a merchant that is actually IN the castle, with his location that is easy to remember. I found myself visiting the Master Librarian and Hammer the most during my CV playthroughs.
Last but not least, bring back the Ayami Kojima and Michiru Yamane team and I will die happy.
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I've said it before, but I think LoS could benefit from a sequel with a Transylvania-roaming non linear aspect like a 3D Simon's Quest. Having to backtrack when the game is hugely linear is a pain in the ass (See Ultimate Ghosts 'n' Goblins). And there are also my other quibbles which I'm sure other readers have engraved into their skulls by now (QTEs, boring wall shimmying and completely unimaginative music). If those main issues were fixed I'd have enjoyed the game far more. (For God's sake, Araujo, listen to some Stravinsky or Debussy or something.)
I just hope MercurySteam is willing to listen to constructive criticism, building on the good stuff they had and not just writing off LoS haters as people who "don't get it" like Cox did with an early review that gave it a 7. Now I know the feeling when someone criticizes something that's essentially your baby, but c'mon, 7 isn't that bad. Would you prefer someone who didn't play past the first level and slapped on a 3, like the now-infamous God Hand review?
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Truthfully, it's a foregone conclusion that no matter what one does in making a 3D Castlevania...there's going to be core fans that are going to hate it. Whether it's because it doesn't meet their expectations or simply because it isn't their favorite CV from back in the day dragged into the third dimension. Better to follow one's own vision and see it through than to try and design by committee to try and maximize the target audience. That's the kind of thing beancounters do (you know, the ones that are rotting the gaming industry). There's a number of ideas I'd implement if I were to produce a 3D Vania that I KNOW would irk the crap out of a number of people here...but that wouldn't stop me from using them. You don't compromise artistic vision for fear of what a few purists on the internet are going to think.
Ultimately, if a long time fan doesn't like what's become of the 3D iterations of their favorite franchise, there's always the traditional 2D titles for them to stay involved with. And if THAT isn't good enough, games like Rondo, SCV4, and SotN still exist. No new Castlevania...no matter how horrible it turns out...can make the old favorites go away where you'll never be able to play them again. Most of the complainers here seem to prefer the classics to the newer games anyways, so I doubt the emotional damage of games like LoS is all that profound when it's all said and done.
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I agree about dumping the more gimmicky crap like the Titans, QTEs, shimmying, and arena combat.
There should be more solid, thoughtful platforming, and definitely take ques from what the earlier 3D titles did right.
Above all they need to be more creative and not rely on every gimmick that every other game tried.
I think they should try to weave a few Castlevania stories for a while before going back to the Satan thing. I never really liked the Satan angle to begin with. Hell I don't even like that they used the name Satan. If they are trying to refer to God's adversary they should have called him Lucifer. Satan is a completely different character in the bible. But at any rate, they didn't really need to involve Satanifer in it. They could have left Zobek as the sole manipulator who eventually becomes one with Death and eventually is enslaved by Gabeula after his fall from grace. Right now there's too much sympathy for Gabeula for him to be an effective ultimate evil for the Belmonts to face. The main thing with Drac's character is his hatred of God. Gabe doesn't seem to really have that at all. In short, screw Kojima and his convoluted stories. There's nothing wrong with a more straight forward tale with just a few twists.
I suppose this is the main thing I disliked about LoS: the story. Don't get me wrong, I didn't mind certain parts but the entire thing with Satan and the way it was handled--it had more of a Dante's Inferno storyline nod with slight varivation on how the hero got from point A to point B, but the core elements are still the same in the end (which is already arguably bad considering the gameplay seemed to borrow aspects from other great 3D titles instead of trying to branch out and try it's own thing.) Then there was the entire thing with Gabe being Dracula...I don't mind him being sympathetic (that's what I liked about Mathias and his hatred of God at feeling betrayed) but honestly, he seems to have absolutely no edge to him as an evil Dark Lord at all. I didn't get the vibe at all, not even when he was presented in modern day New York (and I'll openly admit, I'm not a big fan of that either. Not that it's in modern time but that Satan is seemingly becoming the new main bad guy and Dracula is some tragic hero instead of a tragic individual that became an evil bastard) ...I wasn't a fan of it.
Coupled with, as I mentioned, game play/gimmicks from other popular 3d titles, by the end, it felt more like something reminiscent to Castlevania by name and few mentionable things, such as names (and even then, it was a strong departure from any past portrayal from said characters) from past games slightly shoehorned in for the sake of things, which was why I wasn't too fond of the game.
I wouldn't mind a change to Dracula's lore from what's been established--I like the fallen knight with a grudge against God just as much as an evil tyrant of a war lord that makes a deal with the devil, as long as it's done well and as long as the core concept of him being a truly evil, even horrific threat that needs to be vanished for the sake of all humanity is still intact, which, silly story or not, the past CV games have tried to convey in one way or another, in every game where he is the primary villain. I don't need an older CV game in 3D: I don't mind change, I don't mind the series evolving. I just want a game that would literally incorporate various elements, both gameplay and storyline wise, from the previous games, weaving what works together, and adding new elements to add a flourish, which is what I feel like in large part, LoS really didn't do. (Though it did have some good ideas.)
Personally, I rather like your idea Renonsgoods.
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I actually liked the change of pace LoS brought. It was a very nice twist to the entire series in general, and makes you think "makes sense why the belmont's are linked to Dracula and are so powerful". I wish I had a recording of my face the first time i saw the ending, "OOOHHH SNAP!!!!!" lmao!
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just a small musing on LoS reactions before it came out as opposed to when it came out.
* "Lords of Shadow" teaser trailer comes out, not yet named Castlevania. "oooh reminds me of Castlevania!! looks cool!"
*Screenshots surface. Now named Castlevania LoS, as a re-boot. "Looks awesome to play! in fact almost reminds me of classicvania..."
*More trailers come out. "this looks pretty epic! might be the epic-est castlevania yet!"
*game comes out. "BAAAAWWW NOTHING LIKE CASTLEVANIA."
Jesus Christ I swear, The fanbase...
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Well, that's your interpretation. For me, my curiosity was piqued by the initial teaser, because it featured superficial similarities to Castlevania, mainly CV2 (praying at a church, aflame chain whip, dude in red armour). Even then, I wasn't hot on the generic fantasy troll that appeared towards the end, which really was the first indication that something was off. Also note how there's no music aside from some pulse-simulating drum booms, again leaving the direction Araujo eventually took as a mystery. The more information was let out, the more disillusioned I became with the game, basically.
So for me, if I was ever excited about Lords, or clamoring for it to be really and actually and truly called Castlevania, it was in the early stages of the project, when the promise of what it could be kept me going, before the reality brought me down to mere apathy at best.
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Deceptive trailers and marketing lead us to believe it would be a great Castlevania game. I don't think you can blame us for being excited, and then let down.
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Well it sounded awfully factual
It's a fact that a new approach may not be the right new approach. It's opinion on whether the new approach, a la LoS, is the right new approach.
LoS was fun, but far cry from what I was hoping for.
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I think it would be a good idea to re-evaluate Lords of Shadow's Dracula now that Resurrection has come out. Gabriel has finished becoming Dracula by that point and he is truly terrifying. Sure, he's tired of existence after 1000+ years in the final cut scene of the main game, but the power he has when he completes his transformation and the mindset he has fallen into speaks volumes about the type of villain he will be in any games set between 1022 and 20XX.
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How about another shitty 3D title to make us appreciate another execellent 2D hand-held one.
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How about another shitty 3D title to make us appreciate another execellent 2D hand-held one.
The problem is that this requires Konami making another 2D handheld one.
:(
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The problem is that this requires Konami making another 2D handheld one.
:(
the problem is you have no idea what i'm saying
shit 3D one year > then 2D the next
STUPID REPLY
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwebservice.imagesauce.net%2Fimage%2F755618%2F400x.jpg&hash=45ac7b9944d0521e60b234ab84f61911)
Y U NO UNDERSTAND!?!
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Maybe he's implying we already have LoS for the 3D title.
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Maybe he's implying we already have LoS for the 3D title.
STUPID REPLY
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwebservice.imagesauce.net%2Fimage%2F755618%2F400x.jpg&hash=45ac7b9944d0521e60b234ab84f61911)
Y U NO UNDERSTAND!?!
:rollseyes:
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Don't bother responding. That guy is banned. ;)
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Exactly why I did! ;D He can read it over and over without a chance to reply, then wallow in self pity. Though I guess he can try coming back as an alt or something.
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To just get banned again?
I guess there are enough neckbeards with no life to actually bother to do so.
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Don't bother responding. That guy is banned. ;)
Capcan?
Bout time. Thank goodness.
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I agree, I've always thought one of Castlevania's weak points was the story development. They introduce you cool, interesting characters but never do more than scratch the surface when it comes to develop them appropriately.
In my opinion each one of the old school Castlevanias is a potential plot twist that could be developed in a small series of games so we get to play with one character for two or three games with a well explained and detailed story as well as a conclusion for the main protagonist. And then moving on to a new character.
While each human character would grow with the passing of a few games, it also would be cool to see how Dracula grows but during the entire series, just to give the player a reminder of his immortal condition his story should come across the life of every other character (with no resurrections but one long life) through the different eras of human history, until he finally meets his end.
That would bring an interesting depth to the timeline of the series and a long life to it as well.
However there are so many good approaches to consider, this is merely one and probably not even one of the best.
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/\/\/\ I'm in agreement with you. I always thought one good direction for the 3DVanias to go would be for them to serve as a platform for retelling the original 2D titles in a more fleshed out way. Imagine a 3DVania remake of Simon's Quest, Dracula's Curse, or Rondo of Blood. Good stuff.
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I agree, I've always thought one of Castlevania's weak points was the story development. They introduce you cool, interesting characters but never do more than scratch the surface when it comes to develop them appropriately.
We all would love a Demon Castle Wars in 1999 game, Konami. Just do it!
And I personally would love to see a Pre-Lament of Innocence game starring Joachim rebelling against Walter. <--- Please provide with a controllable camera and more movesets.
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Castlevania Kart
Follow Simon and his friends as they engage in wacky go-kart hijinks through the halls of Dracula's castle.
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Castlevania Kart
Follow Simon and his friends as they engage in wacky go-kart hijinks through the halls of Dracula's castle.
reminds me of Konami Krazy Racers, and that's a great game. Dracula and Gray Fox are my favs
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reminds me of Konami Krazy Racers, and that's a great game. Dracula and Gray Fox are my favs
Yea I thought the same thing.
Maybe a Castlevania racers game would not be such a bad idea.
Maybe have it similar to Mortal Kombat Armeggedon where it is merely just a fun minigame you unlock in the actual maingame.
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Id play it. Would be fun seeing Castlevania mechanics and subweapons and such adapted to kart use.
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Gray Fox
What's the guy from Oblivion doing in a Konami game?
Or is it a different Gray Fox?
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Julius: *drives future car* Yeehaw!
Leon, Trevor, Cristopher, Soleiyu, Simon, Juste and Richter:
WTF? That's cheating!
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What's the guy from Oblivion doing in a Konami game?
Or is it a different Gray Fox?
He's referring to Gray Fox from the Meal Gear series.
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Oh, right. That silver-haired guy Raiden bears an uncanny resemblance to but they never bother specifying why.
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Oh, right. That silver-haired guy Raiden bears an uncanny resemblance to but they never bother specifying why.
Yeah Grey Fox looks like that now but used to look a lot different when Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake came out.
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Oh, right. That silver-haired guy Raiden bears an uncanny resemblance to but they never bother specifying why.
Probably has something to do with nanomachines. Everything in Metal Gear has something to do with nanomachines.
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i complety agree with you in the sense that we need a new spin on things and, a 3D game may just be that new spin.