Castlevania Dungeon Forums
The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: cecil-kain on October 27, 2011, 10:47:14 AM
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A couple days ago, I made an announcement in the Fan Stuff section. Operation: Akumajo is considering a Teaser Trailer for the Demon Castle War --you can view that discussion here -- http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php/topic,4232.0.html (http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php/topic,4232.0.html)
During the course of the discussion, questions were raised about how the Morrises should fit into the Demon Castle War. There's no canon answer, so we're drifting into fan fiction one way or the other --but there are a couple of pertinent facts.
--Canon--
-The Belmonts are not allowed to touch the Vampire Killer until 1999
-Julius is 19 years old and uses the Vampire Killer to battle Dracula.
-Jonathan is 73 years old (if he's still alive)
-Alucard spent years searching for a way to end Dracula's resurrection rite...
-Alucard is also present for the Demon Castle War --has a relationship with the Hakubas
-The Hakuba Priest (Mina's Father) conducts a ritual to seal the Castle within the Eclipse
-St Germain will be present (its unknown if he can interfere or merely observe)
-Some Military Action takes place involving soldiers, lieutenants, and modern weapons
-Julius loses his memory and the Vampire Killer is left in the Castle when the battle is over.
--Real World Reference--
-Nostrodamus' Quatrain 72 gives July 1999 as when "The Great King of Terror" arrives
-The Solar Eclipse occured in Europe on August 11, 1999.
Amongst the many mysteries that we've already beaten to death over the years... We need to consider what the Belmonts were up to the last couple centuries. Was their tradition maintained with any training whatsoever? How would they train throughout the generations without their signature weapon? Jonathan made an interesting point in PoR --about how the Belmonts are *legendary* Does anyone believe in them anymore? Or are they just an old fairy tale like Camelot or Robin Hood? Is Julius groomed all his life to battle Dracula, or is it thrown on his lap? How do the Belmonts finally break their silence and surface --and at what time? How do the Morrises fit into all of this? What do you think?
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Keep the Morris clan out of this.
Let Julius start out as the powerful badass vampire hunter with the VK in hand.
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I don't think they should use a Morris character. They should prevent trying to cram to much stuff into this story. But a brief mention and some expository dialogue are always neat, of course.
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I don't think they should use a Morris character. They should prevent trying to cram to much stuff into this story. But a brief mention and some expository dialogue are always neat, of course.
Agreed. If the game is ever made, Julius should start with the whip. However, the opening scene should be something that explains why the Belmonts couldn't use the whip and what they were doing all that time.
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There are various grammar errors in your post cecil-kain tsk tsk, we are professionals here
T'would be cool if they had Jules start with the leather whip, then attain upgrades for the Morningstar version, even the "Bullet Tip" (Christopher's Soul in the jap version) should be included right thernz?
I'm pretty sure Jonathan won't be in it, he'll be too old and actually I'm quite offended you would compare him to a legendary icon such as Ben Kenobi >:/
Morris rivalry would harken back to Hugh Baldwin's attitude, which may or may not be a good or bad thing to some people.
In OoE there are some references to House Belmont, I suggest cecil-kain boot up his DS and read the encyclopedia b/c there might be some tidbits you haven't considered. I recall a grandmother Belmont ancestor talking about her experiences as a vampire hunter.
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No Morris's needed just provide some back story about how Julius got the Vampire Killer back.
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There are various grammar errors in your post cecil-kain tsk tsk, we are professionals here
T'would be cool if they had Jules start with the leather whip, then attain upgrades for the Morningstar version, even the "Bullet Tip" (Christopher's Soul in the jap version) should be included right thernz?
I'm pretty sure Jonathan won't be in it, he'll be too old and actually I'm quite offended you would compare him to a legendary icon such as Ben Kenobi >:/
Morris rivalry would harken back to Hugh Baldwin's attitude, which may or may not be a good or bad thing to some people.
In OoE there are some references to House Belmont, I suggest cecil-kain boot up his DS and read the encyclopedia b/c there might be some tidbits you haven't considered. I recall a grandmother Belmont ancestor talking about her experiences as a vampire hunter.
Dammit! I usually fix the worst of my grammar before anyone notices. Oh well...
And yes. You're absolutely right. The old woman in Wygol tells a story about her vampire-hunting grandfather... She was reminiscing about training by a small chapel as I recall, and I had forgotten about it... :-[ Still that was only a couple generations after Richter...
Hmmm --these results are surprising...
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yeah, the Morris Clan should be explained in the backstory, but don't need a prominent role. i'd like to imagine that there was a "quiet before the storm" in the decades just prior to 1999, so the Morris family weren't needed and were reluctant to use the whip and have their lifespan limited. but at the same time, everyone was gearing up for the the known date of Dracula's arrival. maybe Alucard had the whip just prior to handing it off to the Belmonts? he should probably fuse it with the Alucard Spear in order to power it up for the Belmonts.
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Arikado can't touch the Holy Whip
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The Morris Family Surpassed the ancient Belmonts in every way.
on top of that Julius has a high chance of not knowing anything from the Belmont Clan since they couldn't fight for so long.
Its logical since Morris' role is Extreme in the Castle War.
Most likely Morris will be an Obi wan to Julius since Johnathan is hell more experienced, must like the Juste to Ritcher deal.
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Arikado can't touch the Holy Whip
does it really say that somewhere? Alucard uses things like Holy Water and grand crosses in Symphony of the Night. i doubt he could or should actually use it, but i don't see any reason he couldn't hold onto it for a little while. in my fanficcy universe (that' i'm making up right now), Richter gave Alucard the whip on his deathbed, and then Alucard went off in search for someone who'd actually be able to put it to some use.
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h-how do you figure the Morris', any Morris is better than any of the classic Belmonts
also, it's very likely Jonathan died just a few years after PoR, since he unlocked VK's full power and it drains the health of a non-Belmont.
@Reinhart,
Well, just for the fact that the whip is the "bane of the children of the night," Genya being Vlad's son and Dracula being the king of the children of the night. And it knocks Alucard on his ass every time Richiter hits him in Symphony.
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Alucard uses things like Holy Water and grand crosses in Symphony of the Night.
This is actually a very good point.
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Well we know the whip, containign Sarah's soul, IS sentient to a certain extent. Leon feels rage from the whip, It has a "memory" of the Belmonts who have used it, and upon the defeat of the Chaos within Castle Dracula, the Chaos that game Dracula his powers, Julius feels as if the whip got weaker or something, as if Sarah is relieved that the one responsible for her situation is finally defeated for good.
all because It hurts Alucard with hly power doesnt exactly mean he cant touch it. He isnt going to be freaking USING it, that WOULD be impossible. But he can probably hold onto it. Im certain the Whip would recognize him as the one who has been the Belmont's greatest aid since the battle against Dracula started with Trevor.
And yeah, he CAN use Holy water, Crosses and other manner of holy things, and lets keep in mind he is a Dhampir. All the powers of a vampire, but with none of their weaknesses. He also isn't evil.
also, it's very likely Jonathan died just a few years after PoR, since he unlocked VK's full power and it drains the health of a non-Belmont.
i thought the reason it killed Morris Sr. was because he HADNT unlocked its full power? As in, he did it wrong, or accessed it's full power without defeating the whip's memory? without "proving" himself to the whip?
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Well why are there chapels in a demon castle? It doesn't make sense.
A vampire or half vampire holding onto Vampire Killer doesn't make any sense.
Alucardo wouldn't want or need to hold onto it anyway.
Alucardo created the Alucard Spear to compliment the power of the VK, that doesn't mean he was in possession of it at any time.
Besides, we know Richiter passes it off to a Morris family member anyway so to argue otherwise is a moot point NEXT QUESTION PLZ
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We were simply discussing the matter. No harm in it. What's your rush?
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i thought the reason it killed Morris Sr. was because he HADNT unlocked its full power? As in, he did it wrong, or accessed it's full power without defeating the whip's memory? without "proving" himself to the whip?
No.
It killed him because he continued to use it alot AFTER he defeated Dracula.
He did unlock the true power of the VK but the drawback is that a Morris will die the longer they use the weapon.
This is all confirmed in POR.
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Actually to be more precise, I think it was said that even after John defeated Dracula, his wounds wouldn't heal since the VK was sucking his vitality throughout the course of the game (Jonathan also hints that "grandfather succumbed to the whip, too"). Don't think there was any indication that he continued to fight monsters after the conclusion of Bloodlines, since he must have been pretty exhausted.
Jonathan also held resentment towards his father since he wouldn't teach him how to unlock VK's true power (b/c he already knew what would happen, John seen his father Quincy die b/c of the whip, he knew he would one day suffer the same fate, so he wanted to spare his son the same fate)
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I wonder how literal the prophesy was. It said that Dracula would rise in 1999 and that the Belmonts should not touch the whip until then. Does that mean that Julius wouldn't have possession of it until 1999? If that's the case, maybe it wouldn't be good to have him getting the whip as part of the backstory, but it should start with it instead.
ok, i'm gonna get fan ficcy again. what if the Belmonts simply lost their memory of who they were? maybe someone cast a spell on them voluntarily so that they wouldn't get involved. then, maybe one person (again, I'm thinking Alucard), kind of kept an eye on them from generation to generation, and when 1999 came, "pop" gave a totally clueless and unprepared Julius the whip and just said "I know you can do it, its in your blood, boy". sounds a little cliche, but might fit. and it'd be full of more Belmont memory loss issues.
oh, and it kinda fits with the Wygol village. you have all these Belmont descendants who forgot where they came from, and yet, even still, manage to come together as if drawn by fate.
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Well, it would help to know precisely why the Belmont family gave up the whip for so long. We were never told specifically. All that was said is that they can't touch the whip until 1999. Nothing more. All we know is that some time after SotN, the Belmont family disappeared and that other heroes showed up to protect humanity. Then the Morris family shows up with the VK until 1999 when Julius Belmont appears wielding the VK and, with help, destroys Dracula once and for all.
It was thought that the Alucard game we saw a trailer to would explain that, but that game doesn't seem to be in the works anymore. It's the biggest mystery in the series.
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I would Imagine the Belmonts continuing to hunt down the supernatural, but without Vampire Killer. Therefore, once they had honed their skills to the point where they didnt even need it, they would be all the more powerful once they DID get it back.
I also still think Richter's going nuts was another part of the reason. Mental and spiritual strengthening.
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h-how do you figure the Morris', any Morris is better than any of the classic Belmonts
Well, it's actually very simple, John Morris Achieved a form of the whip that surpassed that of the Chain form, Pure Holy Light.
no other Castlevania Character could achieve that, and especially a Belmont.
Also, his ability to simply swing on any cieling and 6-way Arial Whip swing.
Jonathan Knew his role was vital in the war, his role simply was to teach Julius all he can because at that point Jonathan was a weapons master.
the only question that needs to be answered is when Does Akuma teach Julius that groovy technique now known as Omnima Vanitas
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they need to turn this into a shonen anime and spend the first season training Julius. j/k.
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I chose option 3. Julius should have a teacher to learn from and a Morris would fit the bill since he/she is giving the whip to the latest Belmont. It would allow for the conclusion of the Morris family and reignite the tale of the Belmont family. But it should be a game intro thing rather then happening throughout the game itself. I also chose option 3 due to the fact that Jonathon is a seventy year old man and wouldn't be able to coach a young Julius in combat. A son or daughter of Jonathon Morris would be the perfect candidate as an instructor as they would both be physically fit to spar with one another.
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I can't imagine a huge role for the Morris clan in this game outside of its patriarch approaching Julius and saying, "Please take this whip, it keeps killing our family."
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I can't imagine a huge role for the Morris clan in this game outside of its patriarch approaching Julius and saying, "Please take this whip, it keeps killing our family."
LOL!! This would make a really fun comic strip! Something like you'd see in Far Side.
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I also chose option 3 due to the fact that Jonathon is a seventy year old man and wouldn't be able to coach a young Julius in combat.
If a seventy year old Asian man with a long white beard can teach young martial artists and swordsmen how to fight in the movies, why couldn't a seventy year old Morris teach a Belmont how to fight? I will admit, the idea of seeing a 70 year old Jonathan in this role isn't that appealing.
Maybe all the Belmonts in the Whip's Memory could teach Julius the basics of fighting? Maybe those little skill cubes found throughout the game could actually be items that jog the Whip's Memory how to use a technique used by a past Belmont and then gets passed to Julius. The first one encountered could have a cut scene showing a Belmont teaching Julius the technique, but the rest of them would just have the name of Belmont that the skill is learned from appear briefly.
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If a seventy year old Asian man with a long white beard can teach young martial artists and swordsmen how to fight in the movies, why couldn't a seventy year old Morris teach a Belmont how to fight? I will admit, the idea of seeing a 70 year old Jonathan in this role isn't that appealing.
Doh! I'd forgotten about that :-[ My bad.
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Thank-you to all that participated in this poll. It seems most of you want to see a Morris involved, but the specifics are not entirely certain. 40% of you want to see a mentor --with one half favoring the elderly Jonathan --and the other half leaning toward a younger Morris character. Personally, I have a hard time believing the actual game would bring the 73 year old Jonathan into a War zone, but that's just my opinion --I'll share these results with the my colleagues and we'll see how the trailer concept develops...
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I'd also personally put in modern war clips rather then use ones from WWII. That was something that kinda bugged me about the first trailer.
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I'd also personally put in modern war clips rather then use ones from WWII. That was something that kinda bugged me about the first trailer.
Agreed.
I actually have 3 people developing their own video concepts independently as part of the creative process. When all 3 are finished, the plan is to review their work to see what everyone brings to the table. At that point, if someone's work is miles ahead --I'll probably put that person in charge of the video's production --with the other 2 providing additional support. When a consensus is reached about the concept, I'll write the script, and try to bring additional artists on board to help the producer realize their vision to the fullest. Meanwhile, I have Claimh Solais scouting for the voice talent.
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Here's my thoughts:
I think the Obi-Wan idea could be good, let's say Jonathon gets wiser and more mature in his older years. Or if he died early, maybe Charlotte is still around and gives the whip and teaches Julius some magic as well.
I also like the playable character idea, it could be Jonathon's son or grandson. He wouldn't use the Vampire Killer whip, but could still use other whips since they trained in that style, and other things like swords spears and kunais of course.
Maybe Jonathon could even be the new whip's memory, and you have to defeat him to get the Vampire Killer.
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The Whip's memory doesnt work that way.
It remembers the last BELMONT to use the whip. ANd Julius wouldnt need to do that either.
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The Whip's memory doesnt work that way.
It remembers the last BELMONT to use the whip. ANd Julius wouldnt need to do that either.
What he said ^^^
Belmonts actually get the whip with no strings or rituals attached.
While none belmonts like the Morris clan have to not only fight a uber powerful vampire killer, they also can not use the whip to much after unlocking its true power or they will die as explained in POR.
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a Morris must defeat the last Belmont found in the Whip's Memory, but that doesn't mean that the whip only remembers the last Belmont, does it? and i'm not talking about trying to defeat the whip's memory. it's more of a personal interaction with it. i think of the Greatest Five attack as being an extension of the Whip's Memory of five warriors. well, that's my take on it anyways, it could be wrong. or maybe Greatest Five is actually summoning the Belmonts Spirits instead? Albus was able to exist for a limited time in our world through the power of the whip. Maybe Belmonts' souls will not rest until Dracula is defeated for good, and thus reside in the whip? but i'll just put a speculation disclaimer on all the above statements. all that aside, i would definitely like to have the feeling that all the past Belmonts are involved in the battle somehow, even if it's just cheering Julius on from heaven as he prepares to strike the final blow.
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PoR says that the whip has a memory of the last male Belmont to use it. Because the whip is intimately tied with the Belmonts- the Founding Belmont's fiance is at it's core after all. A willing vampire sacrifice between a vampire and a Belmont, both of whom trusted each other completely. That allows the whip special power against vampires. But I imagine due to the specific circumstances of it's creation, only a Belmont is truly "trusted" by the whip. anyone else has to defeat the memory of the previous Belmont to use it to "gain it's trust and full power"
The Greatest 5 attack refers to the Greatest 5 Belmonts. Leon, Trevor, Simon, Juste, and Richter.
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and to add by studying patterns,
using Canon-only logic, I've come up with these conclusions
The Vampire Killer's Power can only be trusted to a male of Belmont decent, the amount of decent depends on need of ritual (example, Morris did, but Rienhardt didn't)
Granted that the Spirit of the whip is a female, it kinda makes sense, plus male Belmont brobaly only inherit the supernatural strength and abilities.
The Belnades clan and decent is the reverse, only Females inherit the magical abilities, with the exception of Juste being the only Belmont to inherit both Belmont and Belnades traits.
Unlike the Belmonts, Belnades Power doesn't seem to weaken as the dencent blood deludes (Charolette being REALLY Strong with magic)
the Lecarde Clan, I presume being decedent from Renards (Maria side) seem to have both males and females inherit the powers of their ancestors.
Their true Origin is yet to be known
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Here's my thoughts:
I think the Obi-Wan idea could be good, let's say Jonathon gets wiser and more mature in his older years. Or if he died early, maybe Charlotte is still around and gives the whip and teaches Julius some magic as well.
I also like the playable character idea, it could be Jonathon's son or grandson. He wouldn't use the Vampire Killer whip, but could still use other whips since they trained in that style, and other things like swords spears and kunais of course.
Maybe Jonathon could even be the new whip's memory, and you have to defeat him to get the Vampire Killer.
If Morris were to be playable, I'd like to see him wielding the Alucard spear --which Eric bequeathed to Jonathan...
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that could be cool. i think the need for the spear would have disappeared after the whip returned to the Belmont clan, but it could still work. poor Stella though, maybe she would've inherited it if her father hadn't lost hope about her becoming human again. maybe Jonathan gave it back to her?
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Why would a Morris use the lecarde spear? it was made for Lecarde use. Rather- the Alucard Spear was made for Ricardo use. the Morrises are only stand in Belmonts. They are meant to use the Vampire Killer until it is time to give it to the next Belmont heir for 99. Considering Eric had daughters, they can use the spear, or pass it on to one of their children.
Speaking of which, id love to see a Lecarde descendant in the battle of 99, using the spear.
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and to add by studying patterns,
using Canon-only logic, I've come up with these conclusions
The Vampire Killer's Power can only be trusted to a male of Belmont decent, the amount of decent depends on need of ritual (example, Morris did, but Rienhardt didn't)
Granted that the Spirit of the whip is a female, it kinda makes sense, plus male Belmont brobaly only inherit the supernatural strength and abilities.
The Belnades clan and decent is the reverse, only Females inherit the magical abilities, with the exception of Juste being the only Belmont to inherit both Belmont and Belnades traits.
Unlike the Belmonts, Belnades Power doesn't seem to weaken as the dencent blood deludes (Charolette being REALLY Strong with magic)
the Lecarde Clan, I presume being decedent from Renards (Maria side) seem to have both males and females inherit the powers of their ancestors.
Their true Origin is yet to be known
I don't think that Charlotte is a Belnades. At least, there is nothing that says she is. She is just Jonathon's partner and friend.
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I don't think that Charlotte is a Belnades. At least, there is nothing that says she is. She is just Jonathon's partner and friend.
I have to agree since I've yet to see any evidence linking her to the Belnades family. If anything Charlotte is nothing more then a local sorceress whom gained a popular reputation across the country via her magical abilities.
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Nintendo Power Issue #204 (June 2006)
According to Koji Igarashi, Charlotte's family is somehow related to the Fernandez (Belnades) Clan.
http://castlevania.wikia.com/wiki/Charlotte_Aulin (http://castlevania.wikia.com/wiki/Charlotte_Aulin)
What somehow related?
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Nintendo Power Issue #204 (June 2006)
According to Koji Igarashi, Charlotte's family is somehow related to the Fernandez (Belnades) Clan.
http://castlevania.wikia.com/wiki/Charlotte_Aulin (http://castlevania.wikia.com/wiki/Charlotte_Aulin)
What somehow related?
Yeah they're being extremely vague on that one. On a side-thought wile reading the wiki page, I didn't like what they mentioned about Grant having feelings for Sypha. Another love triangle? Really guys?? Come on! That s**t's been done to death and makes for poor story-telling too. Grant would have no time for feelings towards her due to his even stronger feelings of revenge against Dracula. Yeah as you can guess I despise love triangles :P Anyways; Charlotte being a relative of the Belnades clan...I don't think so. Not with such a lack of evidence to even attempt to back up IGA's claim.
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I think Jonathan (wiser and not killed by the VK) and Charlotte (who COULD be the mother/grand-mother of the Belnades 1999 descendant) would play a role in the DCW. Jon would give the whip to Julius, the last Belmont, and then, with Charlotte, they could totally be mentors, like Wind, and let people like Alucard, Julius and others fight Dracula and his army. (Blockbuster-style :p)
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I would like to see young Hammer Dynasty (might as well be his last name)
Contravania! (like vamprotector)