Castlevania Dungeon Forums
The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: Archangel on April 17, 2012, 01:41:01 PM
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As of lately, I´ve been thinking about Dracula´s "actions" (if you want to call ´em that) after Symphony.
So, after fighting his son, he finally learned that Lisa wanted him not to hate humans for what they did to her. It seemed like he realized in the end that everything he did so far was a huge mistake, the opposite of what his beloved wife wished for him. Before vanishing, he asks Lisa to forgive him.
It really bugged me. Why would Dracula continue to wage war on humanity knowing this? Even if he´s resurrected by humans with dark intents, there would be the possbility to just go away, do something else with your life (but that would be boring, I know, I know... and out of character?)
And yeah, I think, every game that takes place after SotN seemed to portray a really evil Drac, personality-wise.... hm.. no, that´s not the right word.... but he seems to act different than before (see PoR, OoE, Legacy of Darkness for eample).
So what happenend? I believe after hearing Lisa´s final words, something died within Dracula. Maybe he realised there was no turning back now after all these centuries where he tried to get revenge for his lost wife. Long story short: Dracula went all evil. As in "the dark lord" or something.
I might add that this is just a theory. But I´m curious of what you think about it :)
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I think it's part of his curse; he gained his powers for revenge, but instead got locked in a personal hell. Maybe after SotN the last remmnants of his personality were destroyed because of the shock of discovering he did everything against his wife's dying wish (however, I'd say that's at least partly Al's fault for not telling him sooner). Maybe his mind is reset as he is resurrected because the pain of knowing is too much and he'd rather be a mindless dark lord.
However, I do think that he was rather apologizing to Lisa for being what he is instead of agreeing with her, kind of like how Soma apologizes to Mina for not being able to honor her wish.
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I think it's part of his curse; he gained his powers for revenge, but instead got locked in a personal hell. Maybe after SotN the last remmnants of his personality were destroyed because of the shock of discovering he did everything against his wife's dying wish (however, I'd say that's at least partly Al's fault for not telling him sooner). Maybe his mind is reset as he is resurrected because the pain of knowing is too much and he'd rather be a mindless dark lord.
Yes! That´s the idea I had in mind. :D
However, I do think that he was rather apologizing to Lisa for being what he is instead of agreeing with her, kind of like how Soma apologizes to Mina for not being able to honor her wish.
I see.... that´s a very good point. And it´s kind of cool/sad that history would repeat itself during DoS´ bad ending... but I´m sure that wasn´t intentional.
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Maybe he just wants some rest for his soul but all these danderblasted humans keep reviving him. You'd be pissed off at humans too if they kept waking you up.
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Maybe he just wants some rest for his soul but all these danderblasted humans keep reviving him. You'd be pissed off at humans too if they kept waking you up.
Sounds like Vincent from FFVII.
I'm going to agree with Archangel. From SotN on, he's been less "vengeance for your hypocrisy, murdering an innocent under the pretense of innocence" and more "enslave and slaughter all who oppose me." Methinks it may be a tad more complicated than him simply being devestated and drawn to incite utter chaos.
I'm going to expand a bit on what's already been suggested, and say that once he heard from Al Lisa's last wish, he underwent a total mental breakdown in between his SotN death and his next resurrection. Giving that he knew Lisa and her personality well, seeing as he was deeply in love with her, etc., I would imagine that he had some manner of festering thought that her final wishes were of the forgiving nature. Maybe he had always had some lingering feeling that he was doing everything for naught, but that thought made him realize that he was betraying Lisa and damning her loving nature as her murderers had. With such a horrible and definitely plausible notion in his head, I'd imagine it was either easier for him to continue his conquest against humanity, OR that he blamed them further, for not only killing Lisa in the first place, but also because of that leading him to the unpleasant mindset of his futility, and killed them under that pretense.
Or, since he and Castlevania take on a new appearance with each incarnation, certain memories linger and others fade. Obviously his anger is strong enough to carry on, but he makes no real mention of Al, Lisa, specific Belmonts, in future games. He makes, if I recall correctly, obscure references to them. He, in DXC, says "Belmont, son of Belmont," possibly indicating that he knows the aura of the bloodline, but cannot remember any past incarnations well enough to directly recall them. Or he can, and just chooses not to. In any case, the possibility I'm suggesting is that he retains and loses certain thoughts, memories, grievances, etc., with each death and revival he goes through.
This is a really interesting topic. Good call in putting it up, Archangel.
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He doesn't seemed to remember things that have happened, like in HoD:
(http://www.linnavaanijat.com/img/hey/oivallus.png)
Guess the Abyss plays tricks on his memory.
As for his status as the bad guy, I'm inclined to think he is more like a representative of evil desires instead of being supremely evil himself. He is disgusted with humanity's cruelty and people like Shaft seem to just follow his ideology of the world being evil and in need of a purification.
I like this line from DX Chronicles (4:32):
Castlevania: The Dracula X Chronicles Walkthrough (Stage 8 Good Ending) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFCSqZs1Ons#ws)
Again (or before, since this was pre-SotN), he seems to realize the error of his ways (or is at least fascinated to see that there are innocent, good people like Maria). And then promptly dying, just to go wait in hell for the next time to be brought back. Talk about being cursed.
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So, A-Yty, you're saying that he's merely victim to his own emotions, and truly vile people such as Shaft use their crippled ideologies as an excuse to abuse Dracula's power for what they consider the world's gain?
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Maybe he is a victim of his emotions, I don't know. Either way, I think the evil of men is the actual villain of the story. Out of all his followers, I think Shaft is the only one who actually seemed to understood what Drac/Mathias wants, instead of trying to gain something from resurrecting him. Or maybe that's what all his human resurrecters are thinking, but Shaft's the only one who actually said so.
Drac is kind of like mix of Darth Vader and a bit of Paradise Lost Satan. Getting tricked by his own emotions, damning himself, but unable to break free of the habit that is making his existence miserable.
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I´m glad this theory sparked some interest :D
He doesn't seemed to remember things that have happened, like in HoD:
(http://www.linnavaanijat.com/img/hey/oivallus.png)
Guess the Abyss plays tricks on his memory.
I believe it was stated somewhere that the guy you encounter in HoD isn´t the real Dracula. It´s the evil spirit born from Maxim plus Drac´s remains, that formed some sort of pseudo-dracula. That would explain why he wouldn´t know about a Belmont´s strength. But I´m not entirely sure.
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If that's true (source would be nice), it might not be Mathias/Drac everytime a "dark lord" is resurrected.
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Finally found it.... I guess. Read it on the Castlevania Wiki back then:
The Dracula Wraith is a being born of Dracula Remains and the evil soul that was created inside of Maxim Kischine after he came in contact with the remains. He is the final hidden boss of the game Castlevania: Harmony of Dissonance. He is not actually Dracula himself (he indicates that he has never felt the power of a Belmont before).
http://castlevania.wikia.com/wiki/Dracula_Wraith (http://castlevania.wikia.com/wiki/Dracula_Wraith)
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But that's just an open wiki, isn't it? It's not that I don't agree with that, but apparently it isn't from an official source.
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IGA explained it with the Japanese video game magazine Dengeki PlayStation.
開発者がひもとく「ドラキュラ」の秘密３ 改心後も復活してしまう訳:
PS「月下の夜想曲」で、ドラキュラは改心して滅びていくんですが、そのあとの時代でもなぜか復活しています。
これは魔界に封印された者は、その邪悪な部分だけが増幅されるため、
邪教の信者などが時期を見て復活の儀式を行えば、ドラキュラ本人の意思を伴わずに、邪悪な意思だけが復活するためと思われます。
ただ、いつかはドラキュラにも完全な安息を与えたいと思っています。
http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv-chron/game-media.htm (http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv-chron/game-media.htm)
The Dracula Wraith is a being born of Dracula Remains and the evil soul that was created inside of Maxim Kischine after he came in contact with the remains. He is the final hidden boss of the game Castlevania: Harmony of Dissonance. He is not actually Dracula himself (he indicates that he has never felt the power of a Belmont before).
It is explained by the dialog of the game.
http://www.oocities.org/nec43xkq3/hod/index.html (http://www.oocities.org/nec43xkq3/hod/index.html)
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Dracula went all evil. As in "the dark lord" or something.
Its hard to talk about Dracula's actions without taking into account quality of the games he was in after SOTN.
Any attempt to dissect his character will be mostly futile since in the first games he didn't have any character and after that only few games portray him as something different rather than scarecrow of the final boss (sometimes careless shoehorned into the plot without neccessity).
I personally think that Dracula becoming more straightforward in his actions have more to do with declining plot quality rather than any conscious attempt to "develop / change" his character. After SOTN he was decently presented only in LOI (where he was not Dracula yet) and...that's it. In other games he appeared just to give some small speech about Evil, mock "Dracula-would-be-killer-of-the-day", and promptly die. Not much for a character development I think.
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Most of the inconsistencies in Dracula's personality are because of the different teams and their interpretations of the character. It doesn't help that Iga added his own Draculas into the mix. But if we're going to try and rationalize them down into a canonical reason, I think that Dracula's personality and actions are dictated by the particular circumstance of each game.
Almost every instance Dracula is resurrected, it is done by a person or group for selfish reasons. Then, as Dracula proceeds to carry out his duties, a warrior or group of warriors appear to kill him. He may recognize the Belmont bloodline, but I'm guessing the identities of individual Belmonts is as meaningless to him as a group of ants from the same colony would be to us. I'm guessing most of the non-Belmont characters are even more meaningless. The only character he'd have a true connection with is Alucard. I doubt that Trevor, Grant, and Sypha called a time out for Al and Drac to have a heart to heart in CV3. So when Drac and Al meet in SotN, it's their first chance to actually discuss Lisa's death and Dracula's war on humanity.
The most consistent character trait Dracula has portrayed throughout all the games is his inability to forgive those who wrong him. I think the kinder aspects of his personality could be brought out by Elizabetha/Lisa/Mina, but those traits are buried under his hatred and need for revenge with her deaths. I think he understood Lisa's last wish, but it's no longer within his abilities to fulfill it without her.
We also have to remember that Dracula is also the "Dark Lord", essentially the opposite of God and a representative of Chaos on Earth. When he's summoned or resurrected naturally every century, it's his job to basically usher in the end of the world. If you look at the beginning of these cycles, he was much more resolute in his campaign. Especially compared to the resurrections near the end of his reign, which seemed more about fulfilling his job requirements than actually pushing for the apocalypse. We also know that Dracula is actively preventing Galamoth from becoming the Dark Lord, which would probably be a much worse fate for humanity. Ultimately Mathias is damning his own soul to spare the world a worse fate.
Story-wise, all these points would easily converge in the 1999 battle. Dracula's soul is given the chance of redemption by being reincarnated with Lisa. Castlevania and the direct flow of chaos into the world would be sealed away in the eclipse with the Vampire Killer, this way another creature couldn't take the position of Dark Lord since the seat of his power would be gone. This plan could have easily been conceived and brought together by Alucard over centuries as a way to end the cycle and give his parents' souls the peace they deserve.
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Not pertaining to sotn and off topic somewhat, but It's ironic Danial that you're mentioning Dracula seeing individual belmont members of that clan as insignificant as ants and such, and that other fighter who are belmonts would be probably even less signifigant. In actuality if the game were taken from dracula's real life story document in history(at least from what i've read and remember) The Dynasty family had fought his family for power in that area. I believe from what i read they opposed each other and the two sides(or members of each family fought) soemthing like that. Obviously Dracula's side won. But yeah if what history says is true he was dethroned not once but twice only to gain the throne again. He got imprisoned and manage to get out of it. I think he also had 2 sons or something. And it is not know but speculated that one had to do with his overthrowing at least imprisonment. I read various articles from differnt sites but i am not sure on the history,becuase some of them say diffrent things. I think his father and maybe brother were killed by a Dynasty which is why he hunted down some of their clan members. And yes Grant Dynasty is supposed to represent part of that clan(doubtful any of their names were Grant). I just think the last name spelling is not the same. Also from what i read Drac had a disliking of lazy people(condemned them by death as an example of how not to be), and turks, and yes very ruthless. Also as far as i know the whole van helsing thing or people hunting him down isn't totally accurate. Assasins maybe. But it would more than likely appear he died in battle(beheaded) by turks or a traitor in his own army. Which makes me think that's how they got the idea for Hector. Then again on diffrent sites the stories do vary, but many of the horrific acts do seem to be somewhat similar in nature. I am not exactly sure on the accuracy of what i remember reading,but i do remember making some comparisons to some of konami's storylines realizing some chracters seem to portray or are based off of real life people at that time. Elizabeth bartey was yet another person who's name had been changed somewhat for konami storyline. I believe i read that on wikipedia.
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Not to be mean or anything, but dividing your posts into paragraphs would make them a lot more pleasant to read.
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Honestly, I always thought that his death in Symphony was the true death of Mathias, where everything good and human in him passed on to Heaven. All the Dracula's we see after that are kind of just a lingering sentiment in a physical body; his physical body is possessed by raw power and all the hatred and rage he'd built up over the centuries.
Kind of like the Lords of Shadow, in hindsight. But that's been my opinion for ages.
Basically, there's enough of his old self present to reasonably say it's Dracula, but Mathias (or whatever was left of him) ain't home anymore, having passed on having fulfilled his unfinished business.
With no human influence to check his actions, Dracula's inner-vampire started to run the show 24/7.
In that sense, Alucard might have actually made Dracula even MORE of a monster, if my theory turns out to be correct.
Way to go kiddo.
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Honestly, I always thought that his death in Symphony was the true death of Mathias, where everything good and human in him passed on to Heaven. All the Dracula's we see after that are kind of just a lingering sentiment in a physical body; his physical body is possessed by raw power and all the hatred and rage he'd built up over the centuries.
Kind of like the Lords of Shadow, in hindsight. But that's been my opinion for ages.
Basically, there's enough of his old self present to reasonably say it's Dracula, but Mathias (or whatever was left of him) ain't home anymore, having passed on having fulfilled his unfinished business.
With no human influence to check his actions, Dracula's inner-vampire started to run the show 24/7.
In that sense, Alucard might have actually made Dracula even MORE of a monster, if my theory turns out to be correct.
Way to go kiddo.
U might be on to something. I think that it's the vampire curse that prevents him from changing. There was probably one last vestige of humanity left in him, but when he learned what Lisa's last words were, that last vestige of humanity was finally consumed by the curse. Without that, he became purely evil.
That, or hearing what she said caused a psychotic break. Insanity plus the curse (which is evil in itself) could be what controls his personality after SotN.
And while we are on the subject of Lisa's last words, I would like to discuss how she died. I just can't seem to shake the thought that her dead wasn't so cut an dry. This thought is that someone manipulated the events that lead to her execution. We all know that Dracula's underlings are evil. We also know that Dracula may not have been that evil before her death. He only hated God. Nothing that involved humans. So, could it be possible that someone manipulated the humans to kill Lisa knowing full well the Dracula would thirst from revenge against humanity for her death?
After all, we know from CoD that Issac tricked humans into killing Rosely to provoke Hector to reclaim his powers to pursuit him so that they could have a battle to the death. So, I'll ask again: is it possible that one of Dracula's underlings manipulated humans to provoke Dracula?
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Someone like Death, perhaps? Although he doesn't seem the spiteful evil type (hell, he's the only one who bothers to have an intelligent conversation with Golem), making Drac go on a roaring rampage of revenge means lots of souls for him to harvest (that is if he is indeed the divine being he is believed to be).
Then again, he was his loyal servant even when Mathias was just angry at God. It would somehow be too obvious if Death caused Lisa's death. Galamoth or a rival vampire or maybe even a scheming human whom Mathias had pissed off sounds more like it.
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Honestly, I always thought that his death in Symphony was the true death of Mathias, where everything good and human in him passed on to Heaven. All the Dracula's we see after that are kind of just a lingering sentiment in a physical body; his physical body is possessed by raw power and all the hatred and rage he'd built up over the centuries.
Congratulations good sir, that was exactly what I wanted to read. That´s what I was implying in the beginning... or at least wanted to.
To be honest, while it´s an interesting possibility that Lisa´s death was some sort of scheme by his enemies (or even someone like Death to further his own goals) to emotionally hurt Dracula and send him in a direction they wanted, I personally don´t like it. Imo, after his first defeat in CV3, Dracula slowly became more of a sport of fate. "We people are evil! Dracula, come forth and bring us darkness!" And Dracula is resurrected. At least let him preserve some credit with his initial decisions like hating god for the death of his first wife, then hating humans (an enemy he could punish for real this time) for the death of his second. It was a tragic incident, caused by the stupidity of mankind... it happens all the time.
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Someone like Death, perhaps? Although he doesn't seem the spiteful evil type (hell, he's the only one who bothers to have an intelligent conversation with Golem), making Drac go on a roaring rampage of revenge means lots of souls for him to harvest (that is if he is indeed the divine being he is believed to be).
Then again, he was his loyal servant even when Mathias was just angry at God. It would somehow be too obvious if Death caused Lisa's death. Galamoth or a rival vampire or maybe even a scheming human whom Mathias had pissed off sounds more like it.
I doubt Death would have done such a thing. He's too loyal to Dracula. I was thinking of someone lower in the hierarchy who hates humanity. Perhaps even one of Dracula's human followers who resents society.
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I personally don't think any of Dracula's servants were responsible for Lisa's execution. You have to remember at that time, humanity on the whole was very superstitious. The Church had their Papal armies all over the place, scouring the country for any traces of witches and Heretics. Lisa could have been somewhat careless in her methods of being a doctor and some of the townsfolk could have mistakenly interpreted this as witchcraft. Such an incident like this happened in Salom, Massachusetts. All because some child got spooked she cited an entire riot against the innocent women of Salom. Old or young, it didn't matter, and it only escalated from there. And throughout the whole European witch craze, if someone was accused of being a witch, even without evidence they were as good as dead. Either through torture, life in prison, of executed. It didn't take a demon to get Lisa executed. Just a bunch of fearful people who don't know any better and who were being manipulated through the corruption of the book 'Malleus Maleficarum' by the Holy Roman Empire.
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Doesn't help she was married to a Vampire. A person with dark magical powers who took in all those who shunned God or were shunned by the light.
He only really married again because Lisa reminded him so much of Elizabetha. She was the only light in his life, and while he shared his dark knowledge with those that came to him, he had no particular contempt towards humans, although they might have had contempt for him. Or at least feared him. Since she was a Healer (Women "doctors"? in the 1400's? I don't think so.), something already shrouded in mysticism, they pretty much came to the only obvious conclusion- that she was a heretic and a witch, married to some dark sorceror king, and burned her at the stake.
Also, interesting note, that the year CV3 takes place is the same supposed year of Vlad Dracula's irl death.
Meaning, Vlad the Impaler's historical assassins were Trevor Belmont and his crew. XD
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I started to notice that Dracula's power was getting weaker post SOTN, probably due to the premature resurrection's since he didn't get a proper resurrection till 1999.
Or maybe he was weak enough for Julius and friends to finish him off for good.
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Since she was a Healer (Women "doctors"? in the 1400's? I don't think so.), something already shrouded in mysticism, they pretty much came to the only obvious conclusion- that she was a heretic and a witch, married to some dark sorceror king, and burned her at the stake.
I think that they hide they marriage.
Others already said, that during this time people were very suspicious and, if they knew that Lisa is married to some powerfull sorcerer (and given the times, townsfolk would most likely assumed that he was evil), I think it would be a sure death sentence for her.
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He only really married again because Lisa reminded him so much of Elizabetha.
I don't think she just reminded him of Elizabetha. I think that Elizabetha, Lisa, and Mina are all the same soul reincarnated. They never come right out and say it in the games, but it seems inferred. Especially by the AoS/DoS story lines. There's also a similar theme in Bram Stoker's Dracula.
I also don't think that Lisa and Dracula were ever married. Marriage is a union under God, and I doubt Mathias would be up for that.
Lisa not being married, yet having a child-spawn of evil and also practicing healing magic is plenty to have her condemned. Dracula's minions didn't really need to play any part in it. Although it could be argued that the evil in men's hearts and senseless murder can be ultimately attributed to the force of Chaos, which Dracula eventually ends up serving.
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He's the Dark Lord - Castlevania's Satan. Killing humans and being vengeful is what he does.
On a more serious note (though seriously, you do not need another explanation other than he is the Dark Lord), I believe it is a sort of... for a lack of a better word, habit. After almost a thousand years of slaughtering humans, you can't just simply stop. He doesn't feel guilty about it, but he does realize it's against Liza's wishes.
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I don't think she just reminded him of Elizabetha. I think that Elizabetha, Lisa, and Mina are all the same soul reincarnated. They never come right out and say it in the games, but it seems inferred. Especially by the AoS/DoS story lines. There's also a similar theme in Bram Stoker's Dracula.
I also don't think that Lisa and Dracula were ever married. Marriage is a union under God, and I doubt Mathias would be up for that.
Lisa not being married, yet having a child-spawn of evil and also practicing healing magic is plenty to have her condemned. Dracula's minions didn't really need to play any part in it. Although it could be argued that the evil in men's hearts and senseless murder can be ultimately attributed to the force of Chaos, which Dracula eventually ends up serving.
Since when did she practice magic? She simple used herbs to ease the suffering of the sick. Did she actually cure anyone? We don't know. We do know that she was at least doing something other than praying. From what I understand, what she did was similar to what modern day nurses and doctors do for terminally ill patients (ease their pain and make them as comfortable as possible).
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Honestly, I always thought that his death in Symphony was the true death of Mathias, where everything good and human in him passed on to Heaven. All the Dracula's we see after that are kind of just a lingering sentiment in a physical body; his physical body is possessed by raw power and all the hatred and rage he'd built up over the centuries.
Kind of like the Lords of Shadow, in hindsight. But that's been my opinion for ages.
Basically, there's enough of his old self present to reasonably say it's Dracula, but Mathias (or whatever was left of him) ain't home anymore, having passed on having fulfilled his unfinished business.
With no human influence to check his actions, Dracula's inner-vampire started to run the show 24/7.
In that sense, Alucard might have actually made Dracula even MORE of a monster, if my theory turns out to be correct.
Way to go kiddo.
I quite like this theory and it makes sense in hindsight. So basically Dracula shed his soul, what little there was left of and he became the personification of evil (Satan). I like this.
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Meh. Dracula is not one being. He takes many forms of existence, like his castle The over-romanticized Dracula of SotN is but one of them.
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Meh. Dracula is not one being. He takes many forms of existence, like his castle The over-romanticized Dracula of SotN is but one of them.
Sure, yeah. But that's not what's being pondered here. Mentioning the Drac & Lisa affair is not just an interpretation (like whether or not Drac has a widow's peak or a goatee). It's the biggest part of his vampire life history.
I never got why some people refer to the SotN Drac as romanticized or whatnot. It's not like he goes on long monologues about how much he loved her. Just a couple of lines to tell the player that her murder is the reason he's the big bad.
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Since when did she practice magic? She simple used herbs to ease the suffering of the sick. Did she actually cure anyone? We don't know. We do know that she was at least doing something other than praying. From what I understand, what she did was similar to what modern day nurses and doctors do for terminally ill patients (ease their pain and make them as comfortable as possible).
Sorry, should have made that more clear in my post. I don't think Lisa actually used magic. I meant that her accusers would have seen her use of herbs and basic science to heal people as magic.
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Sorry, should have made that more clear in my post. I don't think Lisa actually used magic. I meant that her accusers would have seen her use of herbs and basic science to heal people as magic.
This is exactly how people back in that time would have perceived magic, yes. It's a real shame though...
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Not really to do anything with the discussion, but to show how powerfull can be Dracula.
Castlevania OOE : Demonic Maggido and Infinity HP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6PtfuA34Cw#)
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I beleive Dracula always was that powerfull, its just that he rarely used his power for anything other than his traditional "teleport-and-fireball" sequence.
Another thanks for developers creativity, I guess.