Castlevania Dungeon Forums
The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: darkwzrd4 on November 11, 2012, 10:37:15 AM
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As anyone of us knows, in CV4 you could whip in 8 directions. Yet, even though it wasn't the last 2D sidescrolling CV, it is the only game with that function. It was so useful, but didn't take away the challenge of the game. So, why was this feature only used once?
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I like how that feature is unique to only SCVIV but I wouldn't mind to see it return one day, hopefully in "Super Castlevania V"
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Well, Harmony of despair also had the multi direction whip via Julius, not sure of the DS titles though that have Julius in it (as far as I know, I don't think so).
But in terms of the difficulty not changing, suppose that's subjective from person to person. The whips for some players eliminated the usage of subs altogether, just because it can pretty much reach where you need to hit most of the time. I personally wouldn't mind seeing another multidirectional whip user in the future.
To be honest, I'd just be happy to see another 2d CV again, but that's just me
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As anyone of us knows, in CV4 you could whip in 8 directions. Yet, even though it wasn't the last 2D sidescrolling CV, it is the only game with that function. It was so useful, but didn't take away the challenge of the game. So, why was this feature only used once?
I think they thought it did take away the challenge, which was why it was removed. Bloodlines also offered multi-directional attacks for Eric and for John as long as he was in the air, but Simon in Castlevania IV still has the most mobile whip.
I do wish it would come back in full glory again. I think James Rolfe summed it up best when he was reviewing them as himself, and not his nerd persona.
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PoR had it, I think.
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I'll be finishing up my OoE playthrough and onto PoR so I'll be able to confirm that for sure :) I'm fairly positive Jonathan can at least diagonally down while he's airborne, and I remember a whip that would track enemies (Nebula whip I think).
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I don't know, but I want it back. We need more games like IV, I personally find swinging with the whip fun and satisfying.
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I'll be finishing up my OoE playthrough and onto PoR so I'll be able to confirm that for sure :) I'm fairly positive Jonathan can at least diagonally down while he's airborne, and I remember a whip that would track enemies (Nebula whip I think).
Ah yes, that's only airborne. And yeah, the Nebula whip is longer and tracks enemies. ;)
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In PoR, with the exception of Nebula, the whip is only multi-directional when dangling. With the Nebula, it tracks enemy movements to a degree but is slower and the enemies usually can avoid it.
Simply put, it's no where near as good as the multi-directional usage of SCV4. While the whip was able to hit in all directions, it's range had limits. Even though some people argue that this eliminates the need for sub-weapons like the axe, it doesn't because the axe can hit farther. Let's not for get that the Boomerang (Cross) goes all the way to the edge of the screen and can hit multiple times.
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This will sum up all thy answers.
Sequelitis - Super Castlevania 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww_PjqYQi5E#ws)
But to further discuss on it, this is one of the reason people slowly regressed away from the franchise (Outside Japan). Imagine a game where the developers fix all the game's problem such as player handicap/controls, therefore making the perfect game and then, BOOM! Dracula X, in which you get the problems it's predecessor fixed. I know that the controls were purposely designated to be unforgiving because they don't want you to rush through and plan yourself throughout the game carefully, but come on. SCVIV was praised because of these changes. Of course, I will criticize SCVIV because these additions did make the game alot easier but like Egoraptor said, if you're going to change the player mechanics, you can't use the same level design, you'll need to add new level layout and new gameplay mechanics as well. That's what they should have done for RoB/DX. Keep the new mechanics, but add new challenges to keep the player on their feet. Make the player find good use of the sub-weapons and acknowledge their importance. Make the walls thicker so I don't kill the skeletons by whipping up through the wall rather than fighting them face to face. Change da game, not da playa!
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But in terms of the difficulty not changing, suppose that's subjective from person to person. The whips for some players eliminated the usage of subs altogether, just because it can pretty much reach where you need to hit most of the time. I personally wouldn't mind seeing another multidirectional whip user in the future.
I disagree with that. Subweapons were very useful in many situations in SCV4. And level design, especially in the last levels, was rather unforgivable.
Overall game was still challenging, thanks to creative level design. In comparision ROB was rather mediocre in that aspect, while compencating for its approach with a lot of content.
I think 8-directional whip was never used, because you need very talented designers to make it work properly and design levels, that still would be challenging. It's much easier to design levels when your character is heavily handicapped.
Overall, I am agree with this:
But to further discuss on it, this is one of the reason people slowly regressed away from the franchise (Outside Japan). Imagine a game where the developers fix all the game's problem such as player handicap/controls, therefore making the perfect game and then, BOOM! Dracula X, in which you get the problems it's predecessor fixed. I know that the controls were purposely designated to be unforgiving because they don't want you to rush through and plan yourself throughout the game carefully, but come on. SCVIV was praised because of these changes. Of course, I will criticize SCVIV because these additions did make the game alot easier but like Egoraptor said, if you're going to change the player mechanics, you can't use the same level design, you'll need to add new level layout and new gameplay mechanics as well. That's what they should have done for RoB/DX. Keep the new mechanics, but add new challenges to keep the player on their feet. Make the player find good use of the sub-weapons and acknowledge their importance. Make the walls thicker so I don't kill the skeletons by whipping up through the wall rather than fighting them face to face. Change da game, not da playa!
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I will criticize SCVIV because these additions did make the game alot easier but like Egoraptor said, if you're going to change the player mechanics, you can't use the same level design, you'll need to add new level layout and new gameplay mechanics as well. That's what they should have done for RoB/DX. Keep the new mechanics, but add new challenges to keep the player on their feet. Make the player find good use of the sub-weapons and acknowledge their importance. Make the walls thicker so I don't kill the skeletons by whipping up through the wall rather than fighting them face to face. Change da game, not da playa!
This. Instead of abandoning this mechanic, Konami should have changed up the level design to force you to use the whip and sub-weapons in new ways. In other words, instead of having levels that are straight forward where you just had to get to the end and defeat the boss, design the levels to force strategic use of your arsenal to navigate and survive. Imagine how great classicvania would have become if with every new game built upon what was new in previous games.
For example, if CV4 had 8 directional whipping, CV5 would have level design that required it and sub-weapons to navigate as well as simply survive. The game after that would build on that and in a number of years, especially with the development of 3D, the N64 and eventually PS2 titles would have been much more epic and maybe we would have gotten a PS3 title that wasn't LoS and used the original CV Mythos.
I think 8-directional whip was never used, because you need very talented designers to make it work properly and design levels, that still would be challenging. It's much easier to design levels when your character is heavily handicapped.
This is the problem. Instead of building one something with real potential, the company cheaped out and made something that was easier to create. What a cop out!!! This is what turns off the community of fans. It's not surprising that a lot of fans jumped ship to the metriodvanias when they came out. For all the sh*t metroidvanias most get for being SotN clones, at least each new game had a different combat system.
Subweapons were very useful in many situations in SCV4. And level design, especially in the last levels, was rather unforgivable. Overall game was still challenging, thanks to creative level design. In comparision ROB was rather mediocre in that aspect, while compencating for its approach with a lot of content.
And, I agree with Sumac. Those last levels of CV were unforgivable. You needed a lot of skill and sub weapons, when you had them, to beat each stage. That is what the future of Classicvania should have been.
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I've always thought it's the reason that SCV4 is by far the easiest of the ClassicVanias. Great game, but it only took me a day or three to beat it from the first time I played it.
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I disagree with that. Subweapons were very useful in many situations in SCV4. And level design, especially in the last levels, was rather unforgivable.
Overall game was still challenging, thanks to creative level design. In comparision ROB was rather mediocre in that aspect, while compencating for its approach with a lot of content.
I think 8-directional whip was never used, because you need very talented designers to make it work properly and design levels, that still would be challenging. It's much easier to design levels when your character is heavily handicapped.
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Like I said, the difficulty was subjective, along with the usage of the subweapons. Some found the difficulty still requiring the subs to make it through, others, not so much. So both you and me find ourselves on the former, but other players are on the latter. The whip can pretty much reach where the subs can hit, like above you or below you. It's not like the games that require the subs to compensate for where you can't hit, and that's very well reflected from the traditional CVs (along with ROB onwards).
In a way, the level design was designed for the controls they were given. Since they deemed the multidirectional whip to make the game too easy (instead of designing the levels and enemies more around its usage), the following CVs went back to square one then tried building up to multidirection whipping again. So I can guess that ROB's level design was to reflect the controls it was given. Mediocre as it may be, it reflected the extent of its controls well for me.
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In PoR, with the exception of Nebula, the whip is only multi-directional when dangling. With the Nebula, it tracks enemy movements to a degree but is slower and the enemies usually can avoid it.
Simply put, it's no where near as good as the multi-directional usage of SCV4. While the whip was able to hit in all directions, it's range had limits. Even though some people argue that this eliminates the need for sub-weapons like the axe, it doesn't because the axe can hit farther. Let's not for get that the Boomerang (Cross) goes all the way to the edge of the screen and can hit multiple times.
I wouldn't say it negates the need for sub-weapons completely. However, in combination with the larger character sprite and the longer length of the whip itself it most assuredly does greatly diminish the utility of the sub-weapons given that you can easily reach most targets and do more damage than any single sub-weapon can. The problem in SCV4 was that they made the whip much more fun, but left the sub-weapons the way they were and didn't even scale them up the way Simon and Vampire Killer were.
Subsequently, in CVB & CVC they decided to stunt the whip instead of bringing the sub-weapons up to a comparable level. This decision by the designers makes some sense in that it's easier and faster to simply go back to the existing physics and making some different tweaks instead of redesigning all the sub-weapons. Cost effective, but lazy IMO.
In my own fangame, I'm bringing back the 8-way whip because I'm keeping the original NES proportions. Without the overwhelming reach of the larger sprites in later games the 8-way whip will still be fun to use with a smaller impact on the utility of the sub-weapons. In addition I'm going to give the whip an important nerf to compensate for the greater range of motion you get. Specifically, I think preventing the whip from striking through walls while allowing some of the sub-weapons to have this function will balance things out greatly. Some other ideas I've considered are; making the knives smaller and faster; allowing the holy water's flame to last a little longer; making the axe the only sub-weapon that can phase through walls; and limiting the range of the cross while maintaining it's multi-hit pause at the end of it's flight path.
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I thought that the 8 way directional whip would have followed every Castlevania after Super Castlevania 4 and that it was not present in the first Castlevania games on the NES due to the limitations. I've only just came back to the Castlevania games and am slightly let down that you say this feature never made another appearance because it was a really good one. It makes it seem so unrealistic that you can't hit diagonally. But hey, the lack of this feature didn't ruin the first few games so I guess it can't of ruined any since. Still the question remains, why would they not have brought it back at least once?
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People keep forgetting they DID bring it back, with Julius in Harmony of Despair. He has multi-directional whipping, the only character in the game that does.
But I feel that the way SCVIV was made is what makes it unique, kinda like the DSS Card System makes CotM unique in it's own way, the Spellbook fusion in HoD, etc.
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It's not surprising that a lot of fans jumped ship to the metriodvanias when they came out. For all the sh*t metroidvanias most get for being SotN clones, at least each new game had a different combat system.
I think it was a bit different. The stream of "metroidvanias" started only after several years after SOTN and there were several games in between SOTN and COTM. Sadly, after SOTN there simply wasn't much alternative - CV64 was questionable in many eyes and Legends were outright mediocre. So, it was choice between staying with series supporting "metroidvanias" or abandoning it alltogether.
Also, I disagree with "metroidvanias" having different battle systems. In my eyes, all "metroidvanias" are very similar to each other and the only major difference were the subsystems introduced in games.
The whip can pretty much reach where the subs can hit
I disagree with this. Whip can not reach for the other end of the screen, for example.
People keep forgetting they DID bring it back, with Julius in Harmony of Despair. He has multi-directional whipping, the only character in the game that does.
It's a bit too late for that.
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I'll be finishing up my OoE playthrough and onto PoR so I'll be able to confirm that for sure :) I'm fairly positive Jonathan can at least diagonally down while he's airborne, and I remember a whip that would track enemies (Nebula whip I think).
That's all that Jonathan can do once he acquires the whip relic from Wind. He can only whip down diagonally. And while Julius can whip in 8 different directions in HoD sadly it was the wrong game for that to happen.
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It's a bit too late for that.
That's like saying "it's too late for them to release another classicvania," yet we got Adventure ReBirth in 2009.
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Still, cardinal whipping broke mechanics. They were having issues with broken mechanics in the metroidvanias too that they tried to fix in OoE.
And, like, I know CV ain't really all that realistic anyway, but just how viable is whipping diagonally upward, let alone straight up? I mean, especially straight up. I can see diagonal whipping, though... That's totally doable. Used to do it all the time as a kid.
And the NES was more than capable of handling it, they just chose to not use their CHR slots efficiently enough. If Konami really wanted to and really tried, they could have implemented cardinal whipping in CV1, CV2 or CV3.
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Yeah look what they did with Contra 1. That let you shoot in damn near any direction, and that was with guns no less (although you DID die in one hit the principle is that the NES could indeed handle 8 way attacks).
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And it's not like Super Castlevania IV was dead easy. If you never played a Castlevania game, you still died in the game, the bosses were not that easy either. The game was not a "cakewalk" because of these mechanics. But it was probably the first castlevania where people tended not to rage quit and blame the controls for being "bad". If it weren't for save states in the emulator, I would never even try to finish the NES games. I mean there was so much potential in those games and they were fun, really. But, most people are not hardcore when it comes to "know the game better than you know the controls" and dodge the axe knights and medusa heads without attacking the medusa heads and add the second knight and still not attacking the knights and reach death unscathed. If frustration was the cost of having fun in those classic games, then you were probably not down for the challenge. I wonder that of all the castlevania games sold on NES, what is the percentage of people actually finishing those games to people who threw the cartridge out the window? Super Castlevania IV was the only classicvania that I finished without the save states and that game was "challenging" rather than "frustrating" and that is the best classic Castlevania out there for me. RoB was much better than DX just because of that last boss with Dracula in DX, it changed the way I looked at the game, otherwise the game was fantastic, had better graphics than RoB and I still respected that game despite being a butchered port. But the final boss comparison was just a turn off for me. There was no reason for them to add pits on a boss that involved players to die in their 6-9 times to fight Dracula on his first form alone but then you add the pits making you want to not even face the challenge.
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They probably figured they would have a hard time as time went on, in designing more and more levels based around multi directional whipping, not to mention that when you have a whip that hits all directions, even if it does not make sub weapons obsolete, you are still less likely to use them to say, hit something right above you. Or diagonally up from you.
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After hacking through CV3 for the past year or so, I can say honestly that it's not that hard. It's hardly "NES hard". I can get farther in CV3 than I ever could in Contra, even when I played CV3 for the very first time 15 years ago when I bought it for $10 used. I played it a few times, got frustrated, and gave up on it. But I still got past the first few stages. I never got past stage 2 in Contra. And nowadays I can reach Dracula's Castle without using any save states.
Furthermore, CV3 had passwords, so it's tons easier than CV1. And CV2 was mostly just hard cuz of vagueness. I've never once thought CV3's controls were bad. People that rant about classicvanias' controls are just shitty gamers. CV1 and CV3 handle very well. If you're going to bitch about CV's controls, then bitch moreso about Bionic Commando's. You couldn't even jump in that game! Yet I still beat it -- over and over. Now it doesn't want to boot up because I think I damaged the contacts. :(
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People that rant about classicvanias' controls are just shitty gamers.
Sorry, but that's like saying "everyone who doesn't like NES graphics are stupid". It doesn't make sense and sounds fanboish.
All NES CVs had some troubles with controls. CV3 had the least of them. As for CV1 and CV2 - they had rather questionable physics, when it came to jumping. And moving speed was also low.
I completed Contra in a week and Super C in 2 days, when my parents bought me those games. And it was more than 20 years ago. I beat those games on the past week and lost approx 2 lives in both. NES Contras (including Force) are much, much easier than any Castlevania title. Especially CV3.
That's like saying "it's too late for them to release another classicvania," yet we got Adventure ReBirth in 2009.
It's too late because reintroducing this mechanic doesn't affect anything in the long run nowadays. If SCV4 was followed with at least two games, that had multidirectional whipping, it could siginificantly change evolution of the series. Nowadays, it's just a throwback to oddness of the past and nothing more. I suppose, you can understand this point.
Still, cardinal whipping broke mechanics.
No.
SCV4 was well tuned for a game that introduced such change. It maybe was a bit easier, but it was far from broken. You want broken mechanics? Use Alucard's spells in SOTN or Maria's Dragon in NITM.
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After hacking through CV3 for the past year or so, I can say honestly that it's not that hard. It's hardly "NES hard". I can get farther in CV3 than I ever could in Contra, even when I played CV3 for the very first time 15 years ago when I bought it for $10 used. I played it a few times, got frustrated, and gave up on it. But I still got past the first few stages. I never got past stage 2 in Contra. And nowadays I can reach Dracula's Castle without using any save states.
That's not to say that one is necessarily harder than the other, though. I've been through both NES Contras without losing a life (only once each, but still), yet CVIII is a pretty challenging game for me.
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So then the argument stands as such: if you suck at NES CV, you'll probably blame the controls. If you suck at NES Contra, you'll probably blame all the bullets. I have no problem at all with movement in any Castlevania game. To this day I still have issues with Contra games. So I still stand by what I said to a lesser extent: if you think NES CV games had crappy controls, you just suck at NES CV games.
Now the Gameboy CV games. Oh god, those did and still do make me just turn the games off after 5 minutes.
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The only GB CV I can't stomach is the first one. I beat it just for the sake of completion and that was more agonizing than rectal suppositories.
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Reading all these comments, they make no sense to me. Why? Because people tend to compare today's games with games of the past. I can only remember my self back then, when a game was coming out saying, wow, i really need to get that game and the controls for each game, it was about the same, small differences. Has anyone played batman returns for the game boy? Now that's what i call shit controls and ridiculously difficulty. Still back then, i was able after many tries, to be able to finish it without losing a single life, even on hard.
Yes, i agree that most of the past games they were having stiff controls, but that was something that was adding some more challenge. Now almost everything it's made to be easy to play, for all the people, challenging games in our days, are almost non existent and when one game tries to bring back the old difficulty, all the people are starting to bitching about that game and how hard it is.
Even to this day, i am able to finish in less than 10 minutes kung fu master for game boy, even on hard without losing a single life. For me it's all about practice. Nintendo offers even the help button for those that can't past a stage or boss, having the cpu do all the work for them.
Also don't forget from were all games come from: Pong.
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Actually, all games come from Thomas T. Goldsmith Jr.'s CRT Amusement Device. Just sayin'. :P
What I don't get is the refusal to acknowledge that cardinal whipping in SCV4 does factually negate some of the need for the sub-weapons. Yes, there are still a few situations here and there where you need the extra reach, but you cannot argue that they aren't far less than in any other CV game. Look at Bloodlines. Is there any argument to be made that they couldn't have used the exact same proportions as SCV4 on the Genesis? Of course not. There was a conscious choice by the designers to limit the features introduced in SCV4 for good reasons. If anything, Bloodlines should have become the new norm for future Belmonts.
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v119/c0mbat/676D9929-7B1F-4A54-9A42-E8BBFBA866C5-6571-0000021168AFEDAE.jpg)
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So I still stand by what I said to a lesser extent: if you think NES CV games had crappy controls, you just suck at NES CV games.
I hope that wasn't directed at me, because...I've completed all NES CVs on one life this year. I wouldn't be able to do it, if I sucked at'em.
By the same margin, I could say that if you suck at Contra...well, you can figure out the rest. ;D
What I don't get is the refusal to acknowledge that cardinal whipping in SCV4 does factually negate some of the need for the sub-weapons.
It could have been improved, with more advanced level design. Post-SCV4 took an easier approach.
If anything, Bloodlines should have become the new norm for future Belmonts.
There are few things that distinguishes CVB from previous games. The only three major things are John's ability to whip diagonally up and use whip for jumping over gaps and Super Subweapon attacks. I am not counting Eric abilites, since he has unique weapon, that was never used before and after CVB.
By the way, John's ability to use whip to jump over gaps was also never used in the series, except for in LOI, as far as I know. Basically CV always forced primitive level design, by cutting all innovations away.
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Level design isn't really destined to be primitive just because of distilled mechanics. Most examples of good emergent gameplay stem from simpler systems too. I mean, it's not a game, but Conway's Game of Life is pretty much the epitome of this principle.
The clock tower levels in Castlevania also show how much you can do without the need of extraneous mechanics.
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Original Zelda had shitty controls compared to today's games. I think Commando had crappy controls, even on the arcade version. And like I said, Bionic COmmando's control was pure shit, but I loved that game to death (*sniffles* R.I.P. my widdle cawtwidge...). I will agree CV3 handles slightly better than CV1, but I don't see that much of a difference. Trevor handles much like Simon and the same moves I learned with Trevor I can apply to Simon to get farther. So sorry, I still don't see what all the complaining about CV's controls are about. If people are bitching about an attack delay, that's just silly. If the complaints are about not being able to move while in air, that' just fucked up stupid shit only idiots ever complain about. If the complaints are about Simon and Trevor only moving 1 pixel per step, news flash: most enemies only move 1 pixel as well. The enemies that actually move considerably faster relative to Simon/Trevor are few and far between. Moving more than 1 pixel at a time makes collision detection much more difficult, hence the trend in Game Maker to make 1-pixel movement engines instead of using GM's built-in functions.
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Hmm... Ok, I'd better rephrase from what I said earlier, the whip doesn't need the subs to hit certain enemies. Sure, certain subs can reach farther, but its not like you can't get up a bit closer and use the whip instead either. No matter what enemy they threw at you, the whip is efficient enough to take them out, the subs only made it a bit convenient to approach them in some cases.
As far as I could tell, there's very few situations in which the game makes it feel like you really need a sub to get past a section. Other retro CVs make it feel like a choice between life or death if you don't have a certain sub with you at all times because hitting them with your whip would be either too tedious or difficult to do. Inccubus' point is pretty much says this though xD
improvements to stage design to emphasize the controls or perhaps boosting the subs to a degree, whichever option would have benefited SCV4 overall. The game is still fun, but the subs take a back seat in its need to be used is all.
To go along with what thernz has said, level design can be as elaborate as one can make it, as long as the controls can keep up with what the level throws at the player. Indeed it is restricted to a degree by the controls (don't think many like controls that make things more difficult than it needs to be), but levels can be creative yet complement the controls it is given. It just rides on the designers and how well they make the stages.
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If character have simple and limited abilities, there is no point to make very elaborate level design.
If people are bitching about an attack delay, that's just silly. If the complaints are about not being able to move while in air, that' just fucked up stupid shit only idiots ever complain about.
Just say outright, that people who have complaints about controls in CV games are idiots and that's that. :rollseyes:
In reality there are bad things about CVs controls and they do exist no matter how much amount of sugarcoating or nostalgia you throw over them. Stiffness, slowness. Clumsy jumps, often not very adequate hitboxes. It's not that critical to the game, however, all this make controling characters harder, then they really should be. An example that goes beyond just "stiff controls" is CVA. This is a game where bad controls is the main enemy of the player. Creative level design that clash with engine problems and aforementioned bad controls - doesn't help.
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Hit boxes? Did you seriously complain about hit boxes? ... ... Ok, may have been a problem in CV1 and CV2, but it was definitely cleaned up by CV3. CV3 has some of the most forgiving collision detection I've ever seen in a game then and now. And only in CV2 did it ever feel slow to me. Jumps were far from clumsy. Konami gave a LOT of leeway in the jumping. You can jump from your heels and land on your tiptoes in CV games. Seriously, what is it about CV's mechanics that make jumping clumsy? The controls were far more forgiving for Simon and Trevor than they were for, say, the whip or bone-tossing skeletons. Those poor bastards were actually programmed to overshoot a ledge even when they visibly land on it after a jump. The one single feature of CV's controls I'll readily grant anyone is the stairs, since Konami programmed Trevor and Simon to move at half speed on stairs (makes sense, though) and rendered them uncontrollable until the climbing animation ended. That was the only clunky feature I ever noticed in an NES CV game. ... Ok, I've also vocalized my complaint about requiring left/right to be held down first when A is pressed or pressing them both at the exact same time without fail; but to make that aspect of jumping more lenient, Konami would have had to sacrifice even more speed with extraneous code, so I can forgive that.
As I've said for the GB ones, that's a whole different story (I think Legends I liked the most control-wise for the GB ones). Adventure's just straight up turned me off of the GB series.
And I"m not sugarcoating with nostalgia. CV2, maybe. CVA I loathe, so definitely not sugarcoating that. CV2 was the one that got me into the series. I played CV1 on the COmmodore and was like "ooh CV on Commodore!" I never played CV1 on the NES until I was in college. I bought CV3 and played it for the very first time after that. I never even knew about it -- I went to the store looking for CV2 and all they had was CV3 so I was like, "why the hell not." Like I said, I played a few times then abandoned it. Everything I say about CV3 and parts of CV1 are based on month after month of studying CV3's code and playing through stages over and over and over and over and over. Handles just as well as Mega Man, imho. If i was going to sugarcoat anything, it'd be Ninja Gaiden 2. But I have a love-hate relationship with that series: I love it so much but fucking hate the games because they're so fucking annoyingly hard for me. And God help you if you jump onto a wall with no ladder.