Topic: What ever happened to the 8 directional whipping?

[darkwzrd4]

As anyone of us knows, in CV4 you could whip in 8 directions.  Yet, even though it wasn't the last 2D sidescrolling CV, it is the only game with that function.  It was so useful, but didn't take away the challenge of the game.  So, why was this feature only used once? 

[crisis]

I like how that feature is unique to only SCVIV but I wouldn't mind to see it return one day, hopefully in "Super Castlevania V"

[Kusanagi]

Well, Harmony of despair also had the multi direction whip via Julius, not sure of the DS titles though that have Julius in it (as far as I know, I don't think so).

But in terms of the difficulty not changing, suppose that's subjective from person to person. The whips for some players eliminated the usage of subs altogether, just because it can pretty much reach where you need to hit most of the time. I personally wouldn't mind seeing another multidirectional whip user in the future.

To be honest, I'd just be happy to see another 2d CV again, but that's just me

[Phoenix7786]

As anyone of us knows, in CV4 you could whip in 8 directions.  Yet, even though it wasn't the last 2D sidescrolling CV, it is the only game with that function.  It was so useful, but didn't take away the challenge of the game.  So, why was this feature only used once?

I think they thought it did take away the challenge, which was why it was removed. Bloodlines also offered multi-directional attacks for Eric and for John as long as he was in the air, but Simon in Castlevania IV still has the most mobile whip.

I do wish it would come back in full glory again. I think James Rolfe summed it up best when he was reviewing them as himself, and not his nerd persona.

[Chernabogue]

PoR had it, I think.

[Phoenix7786]

I'll be finishing up my OoE playthrough and onto PoR so I'll be able to confirm that for sure I'm fairly positive Jonathan can at least diagonally down while he's airborne, and I remember a whip that would track enemies (Nebula whip I think).

[Dremn]

I don't know, but I want it back. We need more games like IV, I personally find swinging with the whip fun and satisfying.

[Chernabogue]

I'll be finishing up my OoE playthrough and onto PoR so I'll be able to confirm that for sure I'm fairly positive Jonathan can at least diagonally down while he's airborne, and I remember a whip that would track enemies (Nebula whip I think).

Ah yes, that's only airborne. And yeah, the Nebula whip is longer and tracks enemies.

[darkwzrd4]

In PoR, with the exception of Nebula, the whip is only multi-directional when dangling.  With the Nebula, it tracks enemy movements to a degree but is slower and the enemies usually can avoid it.
Simply put, it's no where near as good as the multi-directional usage of SCV4.  While the whip was able to hit in all directions, it's range had limits.  Even though some people argue that this eliminates the need for sub-weapons like the axe, it doesn't because the axe can hit farther.  Let's not for get that the Boomerang (Cross) goes all the way to the edge of the screen and can hit multiple times.

[Zetheraxza]

This will sum up all thy answers.

Sequelitis - Super Castlevania 4

But to further discuss on it, this is one of the reason people slowly regressed away from the franchise (Outside Japan). Imagine a game where the developers fix all the game's problem such as player handicap/controls, therefore making the perfect game and then, BOOM! Dracula X, in which you get the problems it's predecessor fixed. I know that the controls were purposely designated to be unforgiving because they don't want you to rush through and plan yourself throughout the game carefully, but come on. SCVIV was praised because of these changes. Of course, I will criticize SCVIV because these additions did make the game alot easier but like Egoraptor said, if you're going to change the player mechanics, you can't use the same level design, you'll need to add new level layout and new gameplay mechanics as well. That's what they should have done for RoB/DX. Keep the new mechanics, but add new challenges to keep the player on their feet. Make the player find good use of the sub-weapons and acknowledge their importance. Make the walls thicker so I don't kill the skeletons by whipping up through the wall rather than fighting them face to face. Change da game, not da playa!

[Sumac]

But in terms of the difficulty not changing, suppose that's subjective from person to person. The whips for some players eliminated the usage of subs altogether, just because it can pretty much reach where you need to hit most of the time. I personally wouldn't mind seeing another multidirectional whip user in the future.

I disagree with that. Subweapons were very useful in many situations in SCV4. And level design, especially in the last levels, was rather unforgivable.
Overall game was still challenging, thanks to creative level design. In comparision ROB was rather mediocre in that aspect, while compencating for its approach with a lot of content.

I think 8-directional whip was never used, because you need very talented designers to make it work properly and design levels, that still would be challenging. It's much easier to design levels when your character is heavily handicapped.

Overall, I am agree with this:

But to further discuss on it, this is one of the reason people slowly regressed away from the franchise (Outside Japan). Imagine a game where the developers fix all the game's problem such as player handicap/controls, therefore making the perfect game and then, BOOM! Dracula X, in which you get the problems it's predecessor fixed. I know that the controls were purposely designated to be unforgiving because they don't want you to rush through and plan yourself throughout the game carefully, but come on. SCVIV was praised because of these changes. Of course, I will criticize SCVIV because these additions did make the game alot easier but like Egoraptor said, if you're going to change the player mechanics, you can't use the same level design, you'll need to add new level layout and new gameplay mechanics as well. That's what they should have done for RoB/DX. Keep the new mechanics, but add new challenges to keep the player on their feet. Make the player find good use of the sub-weapons and acknowledge their importance. Make the walls thicker so I don't kill the skeletons by whipping up through the wall rather than fighting them face to face. Change da game, not da playa!

[darkwzrd4]

I will criticize SCVIV because these additions did make the game alot easier but like Egoraptor said, if you're going to change the player mechanics, you can't use the same level design, you'll need to add new level layout and new gameplay mechanics as well. That's what they should have done for RoB/DX. Keep the new mechanics, but add new challenges to keep the player on their feet. Make the player find good use of the sub-weapons and acknowledge their importance. Make the walls thicker so I don't kill the skeletons by whipping up through the wall rather than fighting them face to face. Change da game, not da playa!

This. Instead of abandoning this mechanic, Konami should have changed up the level design to force you to use the whip and sub-weapons in new ways.  In other words, instead of having levels that are straight forward where you just had to get to the end and defeat the boss, design the levels to force strategic use of your arsenal to navigate and survive.  Imagine how great classicvania would have become if with every new game built upon what was new in previous games.
For example, if CV4 had 8 directional whipping, CV5 would have level design that required it and sub-weapons to navigate as well as simply survive. The game after that would build on that and in a number of years, especially with the development of 3D, the N64 and eventually PS2 titles would have been much more epic and maybe we would have gotten a PS3 title that wasn't LoS and used the original CV Mythos.

I think 8-directional whip was never used, because you need very talented designers to make it work properly and design levels, that still would be challenging. It's much easier to design levels when your character is heavily handicapped.

This is the problem.  Instead of building one something with real potential, the company cheaped out and made something that was easier to create.  What a cop out!!!  This is what turns off the community of fans.  It's not surprising that a lot of fans jumped ship to the metriodvanias when they came out.  For all the sh*t metroidvanias most get for being SotN clones, at least each new game had a different combat system.

Subweapons were very useful in many situations in SCV4. And level design, especially in the last levels, was rather unforgivable. Overall game was still challenging, thanks to creative level design. In comparision ROB was rather mediocre in that aspect, while compencating for its approach with a lot of content.

And, I agree with Sumac.  Those last levels of CV were unforgivable.  You needed a lot of skill and sub weapons, when you had them, to beat each stage.  That is what the future of Classicvania should have been.

[Ratty]

I've always thought it's the reason that SCV4 is by far the easiest of the ClassicVanias. Great game, but it only took me a day or three to beat it from the first time I played it.

[Kusanagi]

I disagree with that. Subweapons were very useful in many situations in SCV4. And level design, especially in the last levels, was rather unforgivable.
Overall game was still challenging, thanks to creative level design. In comparision ROB was rather mediocre in that aspect, while compencating for its approach with a lot of content.

I think 8-directional whip was never used, because you need very talented designers to make it work properly and design levels, that still would be challenging. It's much easier to design levels when your character is heavily handicapped.

...

Like I said, the difficulty was subjective, along with the usage of the subweapons. Some found the difficulty still requiring the subs to make it through, others, not so much. So both you and me find ourselves on the former, but other players are on the latter. The whip can pretty much reach where the subs can hit, like above you or below you. It's not like the games that require the subs to compensate for where you can't hit, and that's very well reflected from the traditional CVs (along with ROB onwards).

In a way, the level design was designed for the controls they were given. Since they deemed the multidirectional whip to make the game too easy (instead of designing the levels and enemies more around its usage), the following CVs went back to square one then tried building up to multidirection whipping again. So I can guess that ROB's level design was to reflect the controls it was given. Mediocre as it may be, it reflected the extent of its controls well for me.

[Inccubus]

In PoR, with the exception of Nebula, the whip is only multi-directional when dangling.  With the Nebula, it tracks enemy movements to a degree but is slower and the enemies usually can avoid it.
Simply put, it's no where near as good as the multi-directional usage of SCV4.  While the whip was able to hit in all directions, it's range had limits.  Even though some people argue that this eliminates the need for sub-weapons like the axe, it doesn't because the axe can hit farther.  Let's not for get that the Boomerang (Cross) goes all the way to the edge of the screen and can hit multiple times.

I wouldn't say it negates the need for sub-weapons completely. However, in combination with the larger character sprite and the longer length of the whip itself it most assuredly does greatly diminish the utility of the sub-weapons given that you can easily reach most targets and do more damage than any single sub-weapon can. The problem in SCV4 was that they made the whip much more fun, but left the sub-weapons the way they were and didn't even scale them up the way Simon and Vampire Killer were.
Subsequently, in CVB & CVC they decided to stunt the whip instead of bringing the sub-weapons up to a comparable level. This decision by the designers makes some sense in that it's easier and faster to simply go back to the existing physics and making some different tweaks instead of redesigning all the sub-weapons. Cost effective, but lazy IMO.
In my own fangame, I'm bringing back the 8-way whip because I'm keeping the original NES proportions. Without the overwhelming reach of the larger sprites in later games the 8-way whip will still be fun to use with a smaller impact on the utility of the sub-weapons. In addition I'm going to give the whip an important nerf to compensate for the greater range of motion you get. Specifically, I think preventing the whip from striking through walls while allowing some of the sub-weapons to have this function will balance things out greatly. Some other ideas I've considered are; making the knives smaller and faster; allowing the holy water's flame to last a little longer; making the axe the only sub-weapon that can phase through walls; and limiting the range of the cross while maintaining it's multi-hit pause at the end of it's flight path.