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The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: Phoenix7786 on February 14, 2013, 05:13:54 PM

Title: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Phoenix7786 on February 14, 2013, 05:13:54 PM
Heya all. I've been playing through all the Castlevania games lately, especially the portable ones. And it seems to me like the Belmonts are the only ones to ever defeat a Dracula that has naturally ressurected (as opposed to being prematurely re-summoned). And even then, the list is small. Simon, Trevor, Christopher, Richter, and Julius seem to be the only ones that fought a full-strength Dracula. Juste's adventure was against a mere shadow of Dracula (and even then Drac was prematurely brought back my Maxim). Sonia fought Drac, but her canonicity is questionable. The Drac that Nathan fought seemed pretty well-rested, but he's neither a Belmont nor canon.
Actually I think Sypha, Grant, and Alucard are the only canonical non-Belmonts to battle a full-power Drac--and even then that was at Trevor's side. We know Julius had some help at the 1999 battle, but no concrete names (aside from Mina's relatives and probably Alucard).
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: crisis on February 14, 2013, 05:25:40 PM
Seems like you answered your own question!
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: K.G. Morder on February 14, 2013, 07:09:48 PM
Pretty much.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Hypocrates on February 14, 2013, 07:11:30 PM
Quincy Morris and company in the Dracula novel.

He's related to the Belmonts, but not a Belmont himself.

That would be the only time, given the 100 year cycle (Though he can reach full power through ritual if prematurely resurrected).

At least as far as my understanding of how his resurrections work goes.

Oh yeah, and the Dracula Nathan fought apparently wasn't full power either, since they were planning on sacrificing Morris Baldwin for that, and were interrupted.

Though now that I think about it...I think they used Brauner's death to resurrect Dracula at full power in PoR?
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: K.G. Morder on February 14, 2013, 07:19:27 PM
Is the novel a fully powered Dracula though? I mean, he starts out as an old man, obviously having been around not having fed well for a long time. he only starts getting younger and shit once he starts feeding off of the likes of the Demeter crew, and Lucy Westenra. Not to mention it wasn't even Vampire Killer that killed him, but a Bowie knife. Dracula's death is actually rather anticlimactic. He just gets stabbed in the heart with Quincy's knife and dies.

Since the novel is part of the Castlevania canon, (although it remains to be seen if the events transpire exactly the same way) i would go as far as to say he is at his weakest in the novel, aside from maybe CV2, where he's far weaker.

Either way however- the Morrises are still of Belmont lineage. They may be far enough that they cannot fully utilize Vampire Killer, but close enough that they still have the strength to defeat Dracula.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: crisis on February 14, 2013, 07:55:03 PM
Upon Dracula's defeat at the hands of Jonathan & Charlotte, he yells "One day my powers will be fully revived!" or something like that, pretty much referring to his imminent return in 1999~

1897 is 100 years after 1797(SotN), so Dracula could have been at full power, but we'll never know for sure since a "Bram Stoker's Castlevania" game will likely take a lot of liberties & "do it's own thing" from the novel, so to speak (side not, he was prematurely resurrected by I Forget His Name in OoE, but the game never confirms the exact year). The PoR Timeline Bonus has an entry for 1897, which says "Quincy Morris, Belmont descendant, keeps Dracula at bay." They could've put "1897-Bram Stoker's Dracula" and left it at that, or "1897-Quincy Morris along with Jonathan Harker & Van Helsing go on a quest to rescue yaddayadda." Instead, they left it somewhat ambiguous.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: X on February 14, 2013, 11:14:00 PM
In my opinion the members of the Belmont clan should be the only ones able to slay Dracula, fully powered or not. I really don't like the idea that anyone who has some sort of power can destroy him. It takes away from what the series is about.

Quote
Is the novel a fully powered Dracula though? I mean, he starts out as an old man, obviously having been around not having fed well for a long time. he only starts getting younger and shit once he starts feeding off of the likes of the Demeter crew, and Lucy Westenra. Not to mention it wasn't even Vampire Killer that killed him, but a Bowie knife. Dracula's death is actually rather anticlimactic. He just gets stabbed in the heart with Quincy's knife and dies.

Quincy was able to kill Dracula without the Vampirekiller because he has the Belmont's mystical blood flowing through him. The Vampirekiller makes killing Dracula much easier however it's not really a necessity unless Dracula's at full strength, and he wasn't in the Dracula novel. However if OoE never happened then the time from SotN (1797) and the novel (1897) would have been exactly 100 years and Dracula would be at his full strength. But Quincy would have still killed Dracula so whether or not a Belmont has the Vampirekiller they are still able to slay Dracula via their mystical blood along with the use of their sub-weapons or whatever they have on-hand.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Nagumo on February 15, 2013, 06:02:34 AM
Quote from: Phoenix7786 on February 14, 2013, 05:13:54 PM
And even then, the list is small. Simon, Trevor, Christopher, Richter, and Julius seem to be the only ones that fought a full-strength Dracula. 

You can scrap Trevor from the list. From Judgment:

Dracula: Ah, my long-lost boy. Well met, my son.
Alucard: This will mark the first time I face you at your full strength.
Dracula: Yes, you were with that wretched Belmont, and I had not reached my
full power.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Thomas Belmont on February 15, 2013, 10:43:58 AM
Quote from: X on February 14, 2013, 11:14:00 PM
In my opinion the members of the Belmont clan should be the only ones able to slay Dracula, fully powered or not. I really don't like the idea that anyone who has some sort of power can destroy him. It takes away from what the series is about.

Totally agree.

Quote from: Nagumo on February 15, 2013, 06:02:34 AM
You can scrap Trevor from the list. From Judgment:

Dracula: Ah, my long-lost boy. Well met, my son.
Alucard: This will mark the first time I face you at your full strength.
Dracula: Yes, you were with that wretched Belmont, and I had not reached my
full power.

No way is Judgement canon. Besides, even if it was, that conversation between Dracula and Alucard would never have happened because either Trevor or Simon, who ever fought him first, would have defeated Alucard.





Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Phoenix7786 on February 15, 2013, 11:19:11 AM
Quote from: X on February 14, 2013, 11:14:00 PM
In my opinion the members of the Belmont clan should be the only ones able to slay Dracula, fully powered or not. I really don't like the idea that anyone who has some sort of power can destroy him. It takes away from what the series is about.

I am that way too. That's what led me to thinking who else has canonically defeated him when he at his full strength besides the Belmonts.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: son_the_vampire on February 15, 2013, 12:26:47 PM
but what about when juste fights phantom drac or whatever... doesnt that mean full power if he is beaten as a ghost and not a vampire??? either way he is always gonna come back
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Phoenix7786 on February 15, 2013, 01:13:55 PM
Maxim had prematurely brought Dracula back for the 2nd time (since Simon did it too), so Dracula barely being able to manifest as a ghost was really good continuity with the lore. Even then though, Juste being a full-fledged Belmont was overkill.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: son_the_vampire on February 15, 2013, 01:25:20 PM
juste is Overkill no matter what. im sure in Harmony of Despair, soma's use would be cut to a fraction!
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Koutei on February 15, 2013, 06:19:17 PM
Quote from: Nagumo on February 15, 2013, 06:02:34 AM
You can scrap Trevor from the list. From Judgment:

Dracula: Ah, my long-lost boy. Well met, my son.
Alucard: This will mark the first time I face you at your full strength.
Dracula: Yes, you were with that wretched Belmont, and I had not reached my
full power.
Since Trevor fought with Dracula, Alucard didn't fight with Dracula.
I guess.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Shiroi Koumori on February 16, 2013, 12:31:43 AM
Quote from: Koutei on February 15, 2013, 06:19:17 PM
Since Trevor fought with Dracula, Alucard didn't fight with Dracula.
I guess.

Alucard was just a support character during CV3. It is still Trevor that fought Dracula for the most part (if Alucard was present in the finale, he would still just be supporting Trevor).
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: TheCruelAngel on February 16, 2013, 01:34:44 AM
If we consider ambiguously canon CV titles, Reinhardt Schneider/Carrie Fernandez defeated a full powered Dracula, since in LoD Dracula absorbed Cornell's power to fully resurrect himself, no?
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Nagumo on February 16, 2013, 04:45:17 AM
Quote from: Thomas Belmont on February 15, 2013, 10:43:58 AM
Besides, even if it was, that conversation between Dracula and Alucard would never have happened because either Trevor or Simon, who ever fought him first, would have defeated Alucard.

I guess Alucard was just sandbagging during CV3 and SotN, with all this talk about him holding back etc. I like Trevor as well but if they say he didn't fight Dracula at full strength, then that's how it is.

Quote from: TheCruelAngel on February 16, 2013, 01:34:44 AM
If we consider ambiguously canon CV titles, Reinhardt Schneider/Carrie Fernandez defeated a full powered Dracula, since in LoD Dracula absorbed Cornell's power to fully resurrect himself, no?

There's also Vampire Hunter and Lady Gunner. Sonia as well, maybe.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: X on February 16, 2013, 09:51:55 AM
Quote
Maxim had prematurely brought Dracula back for the 2nd time (since Simon did it too), so Dracula barely being able to manifest as a ghost was really good continuity with the lore. Even then though, Juste being a full-fledged Belmont was overkill.

Maxim never prematurely brought Dracula back to life. He simply found all the remains which then created a separate entity out from Maxims' dark desires and brought Castlevania back to the Earth realm. This entity is the one who kidnaps Liddy, taunts and fights Juste once prior to the end of the game, and uses the remains at the end of the game to make himself his own body. And there we have the 'Dracula Wraith'. Dracula himself was never in HoD.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Phoenix7786 on February 16, 2013, 11:40:53 AM
Quote from: X on February 16, 2013, 09:51:55 AM
Maxim never prematurely brought Dracula back to life. He simply found all the remains which then created a separate entity out from Maxims' dark desires and brought Castlevania back to the Earth realm. This entity is the one who kidnaps Liddy, taunts and fights Juste once prior to the end of the game, and uses the remains at the end of the game to make himself his own body. And there we have the 'Dracula Wraith'. Dracula himself was never in HoD.

I've got save-states of all the dialogue in HoD but it's going to be too many pics to post. But HoD is really ambiguous. Death and Maxim identify the "evil" Maxim as Dracula, while Evil Maxim identifies himself as some other spirit. Personally, I don't see Death serving someone who isn't Dracula.

Maxim: Ju- Juste...
Juste: Maxim!  Is it the real you?
M: ...  The other one...  So you met him...
J: Yeah...
M :Oh...  Dracula's power is great...  soon he'll swallow me completely.

Here Maxim ID's the power as Dracula, and claims that he will consume Maxim's consciousness.

Juste: Ah, it's you!
Death   : You know a man named...  Maxim, I believe.
J:   And, if I do?
D:   That man...  He's obtained something which contains Lord Dracula's power, has he not?
J:   Could it have something to do with Dracula's relics?
D:   Relics?  I see, then it all adds up.
J:   What do you mean?
D:   Yes, that explains everything.  You have my thanks.  It's so simple...  That man brought forth the castle.
J:   What?  There's no reason Maxim would do such a thing!
D:   Perhaps not at first.  But, if he obtained Lord Dracula's relics, then it's a different story.  Two
   spirits have received Dracula's power, and brought this castle into existence once again.
J:   Two spirits?
D:   At the moment two spirits dwell within Maxim.  There is his own soul...  The other is the evil spirit of
   my lord, Dracula, which came from his relics.
J   That's absurd.
D   Still, I wonder why two castles have materialized...  Dracula's spirit alone should have sought to call
   forth the castle, but...

Here Death corroborates Maxim's tale about the evil spirit belonging to the count.

EM   Oh?  You're still alive, eh?
Juste   Maxim!  No, it's not him.
M   Oh, so you've found me out, then?
J   Who the devil are you?
M   I am myself.  Though, I'm not the same Maxim you know.  I am the desires that were once sealed away in
   this man.  Since he obtained the relics of Dracula, another spirit took form within him.  I am that
   other.  I don't know if he's even aware of me.
J   Is abducting Lydie your work, then?
M   Heh, heh, heh, obviously...  That is of course my doing.  But the fool has lost his memories.
   He doesn't even know where he is right now!  His memories will soon be revived.  If we come to share those,
   the woman will be mine.
J   Bastard!
M   If I perish, your dear friend will die along with me.  Is that all right with you?
J   Damn!
M   You will die here, scum!

Yet here Evil Maxim identifies himself as some latent desire within Maxim, rather than the count. Personally I'm on Maxim and Death's side that the evil spirit is indeed Count Dracula and not Maxim's psyche.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Thomas Belmont on February 16, 2013, 03:29:13 PM
Quote from: Nagumo on February 16, 2013, 04:45:17 AM
I guess Alucard was just sandbagging during CV3 and SotN, with all this talk about him holding back etc. I like Trevor as well but if they say he didn't fight Dracula at full strength, then that's how it is.

There's also Vampire Hunter and Lady Gunner. Sonia as well, maybe.

First of all, I don't even think Iga's parents would consider Judgement canon. Secondly, why the hell would Alucard hold back against Trevor? He didn't know who Trevor was. Alucard gave it his all and Trevor kicked his ass. He even told Trevor that he was surprised that Trevor defeated him.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on February 16, 2013, 08:20:52 PM
Alucard could very easily know who Trevor was by the scent of his blood.
The evidence is shown later in Symphony.

Death seems to have a similar ability though it could be a translation issue
"The scent of  your blood... you're a Belmont!" - Alucard, SotN -
"Halt! The color of your soul... you must be a Belmont!" - Death, HoD -
(translation for 'scent of your blood' and 'color of your soul' is ambiguous but I need a Japanese Linguist to corroborate)

Since Alucard has these powers, and he has met a Belmont before (Sonia Belmont), he could easily know who Trevor was, and even hold back as he did with Sonia.

It can be argued that Alucard holds back but not back enough where he won't put up a fight, similar to how Julius 'holds back' but still puts up a fight against Soma in AoS.
"I'm surprised you beat me. I've been waiting for you" could also be an implication that Alucard did not expect Trevor to have gotten as strong as he had, in his young age (he's not very mature in CVIII yet, he matures in Curse of Darkness, where he is only 23 years old).
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: K.G. Morder on February 17, 2013, 12:25:48 AM
I have absolutely no problem with Death being able to see souls. I mean, he's death. that would be right up his alley of expertise.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Nagumo on February 17, 2013, 03:24:12 AM
Quote from: Thomas Belmont on February 16, 2013, 03:29:13 PM
First of all, I don't even think Iga's parents would consider Judgement canon.

Well, on what do you base that on aside from personal opinion? As far as I know Judgment is meant to tie into the storyline.

Quote from: Thomas Belmont on February 16, 2013, 03:29:13 PM
Secondly, why the hell would Alucard hold back against Trevor? He didn't know who Trevor was. Alucard gave it his all and Trevor kicked his ass. He even told Trevor that he was surprised that Trevor defeated him.

Alucard was looking for an ally who could help him defeat Dracula. He attacked Trevor in order to test his strength.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Attila on February 17, 2013, 03:48:43 AM
Up till now no one knows what happen on Dracula resurrect at Year 1999 when Julius put a full stop on him. Might he gains full strength at end of 20th century?
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on February 17, 2013, 08:24:05 AM
Supposedly he was super powerful in 1999, but was still defeated.
It took an army and a special team of Vampire Hunters, both of light (Yoko, Mina's parents) and dark alignment (Alucard).

And he still wasn't truly defeated.  His method of resurrection and his domain (Castlevania) were sealed.  The former prevented his soul from escaping and resurrecting, a byproduct of which was that he was reborn as Soma Cruz. The latter meant that the Castle itself, the source of his power (Chaos) would be unable to corrupt his reincarnated soul... for a time.

Cut off the source of power and give the soul a fresh start and you get a dude like Soma.  Said dude behaves similar to the OLD Vlad, before Elisabetha died.  If Mina is harmed or dies, however, as it happens in Dawn of Sorrow's non-canon endings, history repeats itself.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: X on February 17, 2013, 10:36:04 AM
Quote
Maxim: Ju- Juste...
Juste: Maxim!  Is it the real you?
M: ...  The other one...  So you met him...
J: Yeah...
M :Oh...  Dracula's power is great...  soon he'll swallow me completely.

Here Maxim ID's the power as Dracula, and claims that he will consume Maxim's consciousness.

Juste: Ah, it's you!
Death   : You know a man named...  Maxim, I believe.
J:   And, if I do?
D:   That man...  He's obtained something which contains Lord Dracula's power, has he not?
J:   Could it have something to do with Dracula's relics?
D:   Relics?  I see, then it all adds up.
J:   What do you mean?
D:   Yes, that explains everything.  You have my thanks.  It's so simple...  That man brought forth the castle.
J:   What?  There's no reason Maxim would do such a thing!
D:   Perhaps not at first.  But, if he obtained Lord Dracula's relics, then it's a different story.  Two
   spirits have received Dracula's power, and brought this castle into existence once again.
J:   Two spirits?
D:   At the moment two spirits dwell within Maxim.  There is his own soul...  The other is the evil spirit of
   my lord, Dracula, which came from his relics.
J   That's absurd.
D   Still, I wonder why two castles have materialized...  Dracula's spirit alone should have sought to call
   forth the castle, but...

Here Death corroborates Maxim's tale about the evil spirit belonging to the count.

EM   Oh?  You're still alive, eh?
Juste   Maxim!  No, it's not him.
M   Oh, so you've found me out, then?
J   Who the devil are you?
M   I am myself.  Though, I'm not the same Maxim you know.  I am the desires that were once sealed away in
   this man.  Since he obtained the relics of Dracula, another spirit took form within him.  I am that
   other.  I don't know if he's even aware of me.
J   Is abducting Lydie your work, then?
M   Heh, heh, heh, obviously...  That is of course my doing.  But the fool has lost his memories.
   He doesn't even know where he is right now!  His memories will soon be revived.  If we come to share those,
   the woman will be mine.
J   Bastard!
M   If I perish, your dear friend will die along with me.  Is that all right with you?
J   Damn!
M   You will die here, scum!

Yet here Evil Maxim identifies himself as some latent desire within Maxim, rather than the count. Personally I'm on Maxim and Death's side that the evil spirit is indeed Count Dracula and not Maxim's psyche.

Is all this of the Japanese script? If so then I guess Dracula really is in the game. But that is not what is mentioned in the American version.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Phoenix7786 on February 17, 2013, 12:36:44 PM
Yeah that's the Japanese script. The Americanized translation is more ambiguous.

Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: darkwzrd4 on February 17, 2013, 02:52:12 PM
Quote from: Phoenix7786 on February 17, 2013, 12:36:44 PM
Yeah that's the Japanese script. The Americanized translation is more ambiguous.
So, once again the translators change just a few sentences and the whole thing gets messed up.  Why can't translators just do straight translations with the only changes made for sake of grammar? This a perfect example.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Thomas Belmont on February 17, 2013, 03:46:33 PM
Quote from: Jorge D. Fuentes on February 16, 2013, 08:20:52 PM
Alucard could very easily know who Trevor was by the scent of his blood.
The evidence is shown later in Symphony.

Death seems to have a similar ability though it could be a translation issue
"The scent of  your blood... you're a Belmont!" - Alucard, SotN -
"Halt! The color of your soul... you must be a Belmont!" - Death, HoD -
(translation for 'scent of your blood' and 'color of your soul' is ambiguous but I need a Japanese Linguist to corroborate)

Since Alucard has these powers, and he has met a Belmont before (Sonia Belmont), he could easily know who Trevor was, and even hold back as he did with Sonia.

It can be argued that Alucard holds back but not back enough where he won't put up a fight, similar to how Julius 'holds back' but still puts up a fight against Soma in AoS.
"I'm surprised you beat me. I've been waiting for you" could also be an implication that Alucard did not expect Trevor to have gotten as strong as he had, in his young age (he's not very mature in CVIII yet, he matures in Curse of Darkness, where he is only 23 years old).


How would Alucard even know what a Belmont smelled like at the time of Dracula's Curse? His first meeting with a Belmont was with Trevor. Legends wasn't even made yet, and it's not even canon. Alucard is just a weaker version of his father. In SotN, he fought a weakened Dracula whose "true form" was him sitting on his throne. He didn't even stand up. If Alucard was able to defeat a fully powered Dracula, he would be the one battling him every hundred years instead of the Belmonts. However, that is not the case.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on February 17, 2013, 04:59:38 PM
Quote from: Phoenix7786 on February 17, 2013, 12:36:44 PM
Yeah that's the Japanese script. The Americanized translation is more ambiguous.



Jesus, dude.  Did you have to take the huge 1080p images and upload 'em as attachments?
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on February 17, 2013, 05:07:41 PM
Quote from: Thomas Belmont on February 17, 2013, 03:46:33 PM

How would Alucard even know what a Belmont smelled like at the time of Dracula's Curse?

Let's for a moment forget the fact that we're all dealing with supernatural possibilities that are implausable in the real world.
Let's also forget for a moment that these worlds, powers, characters, etc. are not set in stone in terms of abilities, etc.

One could, for the sake of argument, say that a being could have a power like Death's power, where one can see/smell/feel/perceive another's power level (especially if it's over9000).
Since it's never explained, anything could be said about it.  It's like saying "Well why couldn't Alucard turn into a Wolf in Castlevania III?" Simply because it wasn't crafted yet.
Similarly, just because it is not crafted, doesn't mean he never had it.

That's the beauty of videogame characters; they're never fully fleshed out.  There isn't a manual out there stating all of Alucard's canon abilities because if there were, then no new abilities could ever be added.  The ambiguity is the entire reason this thread exists, so throwing monkey wrenches into theories is pretty pointless.

Within the realm of possibility, Alucard could easily have such a power.
And within MY continuity, Alucard met Sonia earlier, which would make things even simpler.  You may not like it, and I'm not claiming it to be canon, but it would make the possibility of this ability very easy to conceive.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Phoenix7786 on February 17, 2013, 07:23:28 PM
Quote from: Jorge D. Fuentes on February 17, 2013, 04:59:38 PM
Jesus, dude.  Did you have to take the huge 1080p images and upload 'em as attachments?

Aw shit Jorge I tried putting them in spoilers, but I couldn't get it to work (I don't know forums very well). If they're butchering the bandwidth let me know and I'll remove the pics.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Koutei on February 17, 2013, 07:27:11 PM
Dracula Phantom (Dracula Wraith in overseas version) isn't Dracula. I'm Japanese. I have Japanese version.

Quote from: Jorge D. Fuentes on February 16, 2013, 08:20:52 PM
"The scent of  your blood... you're a Belmont!" - Alucard, SotN -
"Halt! The color of your soul... you must be a Belmont!" - Death, HoD -
I don't think that there is a big mistake in the translation.

Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: crisis on February 17, 2013, 07:47:41 PM
However the character portrait is Dracula, and the way he fights is the way Dracula fights. "but it's not Dracula" doesn't make any sense.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on February 17, 2013, 08:18:32 PM
Yeah I need a bit of an explanation when it comes to Harmony of Dissonance.
Oh, and so the words from SotN and HoD are not similar in JPN dialogue?  Interesting.  I always thought saying "The color of your soul" sounded really really stupid, so I chalked it up to a mistranslation of "The scent of your blood", since I have heard that "blood" and "soul" are similar in that language.  Thanks for correcting, though.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: X on February 17, 2013, 11:25:31 PM
Quote
Dracula Phantom (Dracula Wraith in overseas version) isn't Dracula. I'm Japanese. I have Japanese version.

So even in the Japanese version the Dracula wraith still isn't Dracula, but Maxim's evil side? The Japanese script seems to say otherwise while the English script would support that very notion.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Kale on February 17, 2013, 11:29:27 PM
Just wanted to chime in to say I think it would be stupid if its just limited to the Belmonts. Then it's no longer a humanity then but a specially selected group. Kind of like destiny, ugh...
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: X on February 17, 2013, 11:44:47 PM
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Just wanted to chime in to say I think it would be stupid if its just limited to the Belmonts. Then it's no longer a humanity then but a specially selected group. Kind of like destiny, ugh...

That's exactly what it is. The Belmonts fight for and represent humanity, while Dracula represents the forces of evil that are trying to wipe out humanity. Every videogame has it's chosen hero/heroine and in CV's case it is the Belmont clan. If everyone could go up against the Count and win then CV just isn't CV anymore. And with some of the IGA games this trend is unfortunately happening. If any of these heros/heroines weren't fighting Dracula in their represented titles then I'd have no problems with it. But this is not the case and I personally think IGA is doing this so he can tell his own stories the way he wants at the risk of damaging the series more then it already is. And IGA is not the greatest story teller as he makes the game first then wraps the story around it. That's not how you make a game. The story always comes first.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Kale on February 18, 2013, 12:42:17 AM
It's fine if the Belmonts are just exceptional, and that's why they can beat Dracula. But if it HAS to be the Belmont clan, as opposed to another exceptional person, then that's when I think it's stupid.

I don't and never did like the whole, ONLY this one person can do it. WHY? Unless they have an unduplicatable ability, why only them?

If it's the whip, and the whip only accepts them, that's fine. But to arbitrarily set in stone only a certain person or clan can, I just think it's dumb and limiting, for no good reason.

EDIT: Of course, if it is the whip, something similar should be possible to make down the road.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Shiroi Koumori on February 18, 2013, 01:40:59 AM
I suppose the whip chooses its owner and Belmonts have to go through a ritual in order for the whip to recognize them.

As for the ability of Belmonts to defeat Drac, I suppose it is just their destiny. The light that opposes the darkness.
Why only them? Well, if a lot of people can defeat Drac, then there is no group of heroes that humanity can look up to.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: crisis on February 18, 2013, 05:29:08 AM
The Belmonts were known to be the most adept Vampire Hunters around, so it's expected for them to be the strongest at battling Dracula and his forces. However, as with most things in life, there can be some exceptions, which is where characters like Shanoa and Hector come in. And even with their exceptional abilities, they're still no match for a full-powered Dracula (the games' plot makes sure of this, with Dracula saying stuff like "the ritual, was it not complete?" "my powers have yet to be fully revived," Shanoa using his own power against him and almost dying in the process, Quincy & John's untimely deaths, etc.)

That's the beauty of the series. The Belmonts will always be at the top, there's no debating that, but there's also a handful of other powerful people that are willing to take up the mantle if need be.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: son_the_vampire on February 18, 2013, 05:40:18 AM
Desmond Belmont fought drac at full power... canon or not, i would like to see any other belmont take on Drac via cell phone buttons  :o
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Lelygax on February 18, 2013, 07:45:32 AM
Quote from: son_the_vampire on February 18, 2013, 05:40:18 AM
Desmond Belmont fought drac at full power... canon or not, i would like to see any other belmont take on Drac via cell phone buttons  :o

Simon Belmont from CV1 greets you, they have a plenty of CV1 for cellphones
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Thomas Belmont on February 18, 2013, 08:39:43 AM
Quote from: Jorge D. Fuentes on February 17, 2013, 05:07:41 PM
Let's for a moment forget the fact that we're all dealing with supernatural possibilities that are implausable in the real world.
Let's also forget for a moment that these worlds, powers, characters, etc. are not set in stone in terms of abilities, etc.

One could, for the sake of argument, say that a being could have a power like Death's power, where one can see/smell/feel/perceive another's power level (especially if it's over9000).
Since it's never explained, anything could be said about it.  It's like saying "Well why couldn't Alucard turn into a Wolf in Castlevania III?" Simply because it wasn't crafted yet.
Similarly, just because it is not crafted, doesn't mean he never had it.

That's the beauty of videogame characters; they're never fully fleshed out.  There isn't a manual out there stating all of Alucard's canon abilities because if there were, then no new abilities could ever be added.  The ambiguity is the entire reason this thread exists, so throwing monkey wrenches into theories is pretty pointless.

Within the realm of possibility, Alucard could easily have such a power.
And within MY continuity, Alucard met Sonia earlier, which would make things even simpler.  You may not like it, and I'm not claiming it to be canon, but it would make the possibility of this ability very easy to conceive.

I believe that Alucard used all of his SotN powers in his battle with Trevor and Alucard still got his ass kicked. And let's say, for the sake of argument, that Legends was canon. Trevor would have gotten his powers from both the Belmonts and Alucard/Dracula. He would be unstoppable. It's sad that I have to say this on a Castlevania forum, but no way is anybody in the Castlevania universe a match for a Belmont.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Lelygax on February 18, 2013, 08:56:18 AM
Sure... So why Alucard won against Richter in SOTN? They surely are powerful, but they dont are unbeatable :p
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Thomas Belmont on February 18, 2013, 09:55:34 AM
Quote from: Lelygax on February 18, 2013, 08:56:18 AM
Sure... So why Alucard won against Richter in SOTN? They surely are powerful, but they dont are unbeatable :p

Alucard and Richter never actually fought. Alucard, with Maria's help, destroyed the orb that was controlling Richter. Had they actually fought, Richter would have annihilated him.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: crisis on February 18, 2013, 10:50:19 AM
The real question is, what would happen if a Belmont fought ANOTHER Belmont?? Am not talking about handicapped battles (Chris vs. Soleiyu, Jon vs. Richiter, etc.), 2 full-powered Belmonts in their prime going at it, like Christopher vs. Juste or Simon vs. Richter


The world would explode
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Lelygax on February 18, 2013, 10:54:21 AM
Quote from: crisis on February 18, 2013, 10:50:19 AM
The real question is, what would happen if a Belmont fought ANOTHER Belmont?? Am not talking about handicapped battles (Chris vs. Soleiyu, Jon vs. Richiter, etc.), 2 full-powered Belmonts in their prime going at it, like Christopher vs. Juste or Simon vs. Richter


The world would explode

No, a time rift would open and CV Judgement be created ;)
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: son_the_vampire on February 18, 2013, 11:07:31 AM
Quote from: crisis on February 18, 2013, 10:50:19 AM
The real question is, what would happen if a Belmont fought ANOTHER Belmont?? Am not talking about handicapped battles (Chris vs. Soleiyu, Jon vs. Richiter, etc.), 2 full-powered Belmonts in their prime going at it, like Christopher vs. Juste or Simon vs. Richter


The world would explode
Desmond and Sonia
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Thomas Belmont on February 18, 2013, 11:11:33 AM
Quote from: crisis on February 18, 2013, 10:50:19 AM
The real question is, what would happen if a Belmont fought ANOTHER Belmont?? Am not talking about handicapped battles (Chris vs. Soleiyu, Jon vs. Richiter, etc.), 2 full-powered Belmonts in their prime going at it, like Christopher vs. Juste or Simon vs. Richter


The world would explode

The world would explode from time paradoxes and the uncontrollable awesomeness of two Belmonts, wielding two different Vampire Killers at the same time, while in their prime, before the battle could even take place.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Lelygax on February 18, 2013, 11:19:48 AM
Indiana Jones then would appear and say "Hey, gimme back my whip!" and then he will say "Grahan Jones, Im your father"
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: darkwzrd4 on February 19, 2013, 02:37:44 PM
What I think it is is that the Belmonts are the only humans who can defeat a fully powered Dracula on their own without any side effects.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: X on February 19, 2013, 05:59:13 PM
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When Shanoa fought Dracula, all her glyphs were pretty much useless. Dominous is what allowed her to win and that was created from Dracula's powers.  Plus, if it wasn't for the fact that Albus's soul was absorbed by Shonoa when she absorbed the last piece of Dominous, she would have died from using it. Albus, who was nothing but a spirit trapped within the glyph at that point, allowed himself to be consumed in place of Shanoa so that she wouldn't die.

You forgot to mention that the magical properties of the Belmont blood that Albus extracted for himself was also taken in by Shanoa.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Phoenix7786 on February 19, 2013, 06:31:42 PM
Ooo nice point.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: MKKhanzo on February 27, 2013, 01:08:02 PM
Cornell did fight "Ultimate Dracula"... If that is not a full power form...
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: K.G. Morder on February 27, 2013, 07:57:55 PM
CV64/LoD is also not canon
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Nagumo on February 28, 2013, 01:56:53 AM
Quote from: MKKhanzo on February 27, 2013, 01:08:02 PM
Cornell did fight "Ultimate Dracula"... If that is not a full power form...

Dracula was trying to obtain Cornell's wolf form so that he could be reborn into an even more powerful form, so I don't think LoD Dracula was fighting at full power.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Johnny Alucard on February 28, 2013, 10:33:21 AM
Quote from: Flame on February 27, 2013, 07:57:55 PM
CV64/LoD is also not canon

I thought it was recently added back into the canon along with Circle of the Moon?
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: K.G. Morder on February 28, 2013, 11:38:43 AM
Were they? I don't remember, but I don't think so...
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Johnny Alucard on February 28, 2013, 11:53:29 AM
Yeah, it looks they were from the timeline that came with Portrait of Ruin.

(http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv-por/packaging/timeline-side2.jpg)
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: crisis on February 28, 2013, 12:03:58 PM
They are considered side-stories, "gaiden" games, which is why they don't have descriptions/summaries like all the other canon games/events on that list.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Nagumo on February 28, 2013, 12:57:04 PM
I got to ask IGA a few questions a while back and he told me CotM/64 games were still gaiden. He said they take place in their  own distinct continuities as orginally intented by the developers. The reason why they are on that PoR timeline is just to show in which years they take place in, I think.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Thomas Belmont on March 01, 2013, 09:05:58 PM
At the end of the Bloodlines description it states, "Note from the developer: A secret to explain the reason why a 16th century vampire somehow shows up in the 20th century is now being planned."  I wonder what they had planned.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Shiroi Koumori on March 02, 2013, 01:11:31 AM
Quote from: Thomas Belmont on March 01, 2013, 09:05:58 PM
At the end of the Bloodlines description it states, "Note from the developer: A secret to explain the reason why a 16th century vampire somehow shows up in the 20th century is now being planned."  I wonder what they had planned.

That has to stay with IGA's brain. Unless he returns and gives a good castlevania pitch to Konami, we won't see it.
Title: Re: Are the Belmonts the only ones to defeat Drac at his full strength?
Post by: Nagumo on March 02, 2013, 01:14:00 AM
I'm guessing they were planning a story in which Elizabeth Bartley gets killed off in order to explain why she had to be revived in Bloodlines.