Castlevania Dungeon Forums

The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => Hardcore Gaming 101 => Topic started by: Ratty on March 08, 2013, 08:15:50 AM

Title: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Ratty on March 08, 2013, 08:15:50 AM
Well the much discussed, lauded and maligned feminist web series on video games by Anita Sarkeesian has arrived.

Damsel in Distress: Part 1 - Tropes vs Women in Video Games (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6p5AZp7r_Q#ws)

I notice that she uses a clip from Legacy of Darkness as an example of the "helpless woman in distress", but fails to mention the female protagonist in that game.
The video is neither offensive or groundbreaking imo, but future episodes could prove to be interesting. Hopefully she will acknowledge the long (if not particularly deep) history of female protagonists in games. Alis Landale/Alisa Landeel from the first Phantasy Star game comes to mind, along with Samus of course.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Lelygax on March 08, 2013, 09:01:00 AM
Im waiting for Metroid, Valis, Alisia Dragon and a plenty more, like X-Men, Street Fighter 2, Xena, Resident Evil, etc. I want to see if she will "omit" things, like games or franchises. By what I've seen so far, she seems pretty honest and will not do that type of thing, but lets see.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Kale on March 08, 2013, 09:41:56 AM
I hate feminists. They are all retarded. Their solution to a Patriarchal Society is a Matriarchal Society.

They aren't about fairness, just flipping the side of the coin. And many feminists do just that, mention the parts where they are "abused" or "underrated" yet completely ignoring the parts where they aren't because of their agenda. So, fuck em!
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Ratty on March 08, 2013, 10:13:27 AM
I hate feminists. They are all retarded. Their solution to a Patriarchal Society is a Matriarchal Society.

They aren't about fairness, just flipping the side of the coin. And many feminists do just that, mention the parts where they are "abused" or "underrated" yet completely ignoring the parts where they aren't because of their agenda. So, fuck em!

Well, that's a very broad statement and while it applies to some people who call themselves feminists it ignores the different movements and perspectives within feminism itself. While you can find some truly ignorant and bewilderingly bigoted people under the banner of feminism, not all feminists are men-hating, and many do want to approach gender equality rather than a matriarchy. I try not to prejudge people who call themselves feminists for this reason.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: C Belmont on March 08, 2013, 10:39:49 AM
Quote
I notice that she uses a clip from Legacy of Darkness as an example of the "helpless woman in distress", but fails to mention the female protagonist in that game.
Quote
m waiting for Metroid, Valis, Alisia Dragon and a plenty more, like X-Men, Street Fighter 2, Xena, Resident Evil, etc. I want to see if she will "omit" things, like games or franchises
You know if she does bring up any more positive female characters in videogames they will probably be accompanied by a "but..."
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Mooning Freddy on March 08, 2013, 10:57:48 AM
Happy May 8th women and girls of the Dungeon!  ;D

That is an interesting analysis of the Damsel-in-distress story in many classic games.

As for Samus, oh hell I can really have a good feminist analysis right there. Oh yeah. A big, strong, costumed bounty hunter revealed to be a woman at the very end. That is something feminists would go crazy about. 
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Ratty on March 08, 2013, 10:59:50 AM
You know if she does bring up any more positive female characters in videogames they will probably be accompanied by a "but..."

Well yeah that's part of competent critical analysis, you acknowledge the good and thoroughly examine the bad. Part of video games becoming more important to mainstream culture is that they're also more important artifacts for examination and discussion. Now just like movies and books, popular games say things about society at large, and those things aren't always pretty. Which leads us to ask where these unfortunate ideas or perceptions came from and why they're popular.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Laina on March 08, 2013, 11:22:14 AM
Speaking of femi-nazis & sensible ladies actually out for equality, has anyone ever heard of or seen the work of a certain woman going by girlwriteswhat on youtube?

I'm a sexy woman, so stop objectifying me! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-N9daqANcw#)


Also Typhon Blue:

Hamster Bites # 1 : Bullshit I Don't Have To Believe To Support Human Rights (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHVw2DK_x2g#ws)


Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on March 08, 2013, 12:28:14 PM
Quote from: Kale on Yesterday at 06:41:56 AM (http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php?topic=5844.msg126417#msg126417)
I hate feminists. They are all retarded. Their solution to a Patriarchal Society is a Matriarchal Society.

They aren't about fairness, just flipping the side of the coin. And many feminists do just that, mention the parts where they are "abused" or "underrated" yet completely ignoring the parts where they aren't because of their agenda. So, fuck em!


We're not all that way.
In fact, there's a story that very channel is doing on just that: the Straw Feminist... you know, the ones that fall into extremism.
#6 The Straw Feminist (Tropes vs. Women) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnJxqRLg9x0#ws)
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: TheouAegis on March 08, 2013, 03:53:23 PM
That damsels in video game distress video was stupid, ignorant crap until she got to the point about escaping. We really don't get to see the damsels try to escape. But then, she makes it sound like in every game the damsel would be able to escape on her own if the game was true to life. Funny, I don't recall many "missing woman" reports ending on a happy note. And those cases in which the abductee does escape is usually by way of waiting for the abductor to fall asleep, go out for groceries, or go to work. Not very epic.

And the first thing that came to my mind when she mentioned the damsel in distress trope is she's just jealous because she knows no guy would ever risk his life to try to save her from a fire-breathing turtle.

And the Dinosaur Planet issue just demonstrated what everyone already knows: Shigeru is a prick. :D


In the other vid, she mentions women "generally" don't lie about sexual assault. Subtle, but she just admitted that they do lie about it and there are court records showing women have admitted to faking rape just to get money or something as petty as attention.

And I still like that joke where Sarah Silverman is walking down the street and passes a guy. When he simply walks past her and doesn't try to rape her, she gets pissed off and even more insecure than she was when she saw the guy approaching, wondering what was wrong with her that would make him not want to rape her -- maybe he's gay.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on March 08, 2013, 04:14:41 PM
Wow, someone is guilty of male prejudice.

Actually, though the original article talks about the core Mario games, in which Peach is indeed the damsel in distress, when one plays the side-story Mario games, one can clearly see Peach's point of view on a lot of things, and she actually manages to get a lot done.

In Paper Mario, she gets ahold of the only star able to grant small wishes, and slowly, aids Mario from afar.  She gets to evade her captors in order to get things done.
In Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door, she has a more prevalent role, though she was still kidnapped at first (that was an army after her).  She is able to outsmart her guards and get stuff done around the base where she's kidnapped (she sneaks around again).

I don't think it paints you in a good light, TheouAegis, to insult the woman in the video.  I also disagree, I don't think she's jealous of videogame characters.  This is why I think you're guilty of too much Male Privilege.

Not sure about Miyamoto being a prick, but I am sure that he's not as progressive as some people think, and is probably still clinging to some japanese old-world 'values' and as such, the trope becomes more apparent.

Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Kale on March 08, 2013, 04:44:26 PM
Well, that's a very broad statement and while it applies to some people who call themselves feminists it ignores the different movements and perspectives within feminism itself. While you can find some truly ignorant and bewilderingly bigoted people under the banner of feminism, not all feminists are men-hating, and many do want to approach gender equality rather than a matriarchy. I try not to prejudge people who call themselves feminists for this reason.

They're not all that way.
In fact, there's a story that very channel is doing on just that: the Straw Feminist... you know, the ones that fall into extremism.
#6 The Straw Feminist (Tropes vs. Women) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnJxqRLg9x0#ws)

Eh..., obviously, I don't think that of all women, like that. But from what I've seen, pretty much all of the ones who claim to be feminists are like that.

And don't get me wrong, any idiot who claims the reverse, is just as bad. But it's more rare, since so many guys are .... painfully aware that women are viewed in a different light. Probably because we came from a purely patriarchal society, where men used to beat women, and nothing was thought of it.

Jokes aside, of course. I don't mind sexist jokes, against either side, if it's intended as one.

EDIT: And wow, did I miss a bunch of posts... seems like my browser loaded up a cached version.

EDIT2: @Laina. That's a better word for it. Femi-nazi! That's probably the word I should've used. And the first vid you post is one I don't mind. She seems like a sensible smart woman.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: X on March 08, 2013, 04:44:53 PM
Quote
In Paper Mario, she gets ahold of the only star able to grant small wishes, and slowly, aids Mario from afar.  She gets to evade her captors in order to get things done.
In Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door, she has a more prevalent role, though she was still kidnapped at first (that was an army after her).  She is able to outsmart her guards and get stuff done around the base where she's kidnapped (she sneaks around again).

Jorge, you left out two other games that gave Princess peach the spotlight. Super Princess Peach for the DS and Super Mario Bros 2 US. And believe it or not guys humanity used to function on a Matriarchal way of life before the pendulum shifted the other way. There is also historical and archeological evidence supporting the facts that prior to the rise of the Patriarchal way of life, things like wars and strife almost never happened. But now they are commonplace, happening an almost daily basis. But I'd be much happier living in a world of equality and it's something everyone needs to work towards.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: TheouAegis on March 08, 2013, 04:54:52 PM
Miyamoto never was progressive socially. He's too old-fashioned. I think he just has a twisted sense of humor sometimes.

Ok Jorge, ball's in your court. Post as many examples as you can find of women being abducted and escaping on their own. Let's be fair: post examples of men too. I don't mean in video games and movies or TV shows, I mean in real life. An abductee is usually damned lucky to even still be alive. Most of the time, a police officer or military squad saves the person. Yes, video games often make it seem so easy to escape, but no one would play the game if you had to sit there for 32 hours waiting for your abductor let his guard down. I've often played games that start with you trying to escape and have literally blurted out at the TV, "That would never happen in real life!" The damsel-in-distress in video games, except for a few cases, is always the ideal -- the guy shows up to defeat the villain and save the girl. Would girl in video no.1 rather have the game show the girl slap the guy, lock herself in her room shooting heroin, then slice her wrists open? That might pass in a N.A.R.C. sequel, but not in Mario.

And she showed Irene from Ninja Gaiden in that video! Irene's not a damsel in distress capable of saving herself! She only had a gun! Guns don't do shit to demons in Ninja Gaiden, you need a flippin' sword and fire jutsu.

The girl in the last video posted essentially argues that Hollywood created feminism. Feminists created it. Hollywood only shows what the writers see. I see those girls in the vids and they talk exactly like the Hollywood feminists. The Hollywood extreme feminist I never have approved of is the buzz-cut or butch feminist. That's a dyke, not a feminist.  If she said, "Hollywood makes all feminists out to be dykes," I'd agree with that.

And I didn't insult anyone, I criticized her looks. Girl 1 is ugly in a flannel shirt. Who the fuck even wears flannel these days? That's a lumberjack's outfit. Girl or guy, flannel is a fashion faux pas.


@X: You can't count Super Mario Bros. 2/Mario US. The girl in video 1 was spot on with that and I knew she'd bring it up. Peach was an after-thought. They had to fill in the 4th character slot and Peach was their only option. Excluding the 4th character would have been too much work. And technically that wasn't Peach, it was Mario dreaming about her.


If Rush Limbaugh coined Feminazi, I'd believe it. That guy's an idiot. I tried watching his show when he was on TV in my college days and I couldn't stand listening to him. Should change his name to Bullroarer Rush. A feminazi is a girl that thinks women are equal to men and should all work together for the benefit of the whole country by waging war against Jews. For Rush to even throw out the word "Nazi" discredits him completely.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Mooning Freddy on March 08, 2013, 05:29:38 PM
As I already said, the video really made me think. The damsel in distress plot in gaming was so overused it makes you think whether those plots actually make the wife / girlfriend appear like stolen property of the hero that he needs to recover, being the knight on white horse and all.

At least Symphony of the Night strays from the path with Maria coming to rescue Richter. Take that, feminists!  ;D

Also, this.

Female Armor Sucks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTGh0EMmMC8#noexternalembed-ws)
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on March 08, 2013, 05:30:33 PM
I believe you have missed the point, TheouAegis.
Quote from: TheouAegis on Today at 01:54:52 PM (http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php?topic=5844.msg126448#msg126448)
Miyamoto never was progressive socially. He's too old-fashioned. I think he just has a twisted sense of humor sometimes.

Ok Jorge, ball's in your court. Post as many examples as you can find of women being abducted and escaping on their own. Let's be fair: post examples of men too. I don't mean in video games and movies or TV shows, I mean in real life. An abductee is usually damned lucky to even still be alive. Most of the time, a police officer or military squad saves the person. Yes, video games often make it seem so easy to escape, but no one would play the game if you had to sit there for 32 hours waiting for your abductor let his guard down. I've often played games that start with you trying to escape and have literally blurted out at the TV, "That would never happen in real life!" The damsel-in-distress in video games, except for a few cases, is always the ideal -- the guy shows up to defeat the villain and save the girl. Would girl in video no.1 rather have the game show the girl slap the guy, lock herself in her room shooting heroin, then slice her wrists open? That might pass in a N.A.R.C. sequel, but not in Mario.


Normally I don't counterpoint with quotes, but with such a complex reply, I think it's warranted.

On the point above, the reason I say you missed the point entirely is not because kidnapping/abduction doesn't happen, but rather because it is perceived to happen primarily to women in the media (by media, I mean the portrayal of said event in books, games, movies, etc.).  And when it does happen, the women in said media become objectified; their plot essentially ends and it becomes the drive for the hero to continue his quest.  Did you even watch the video?  Women become the prize to be won.  They hardly ever do anything afterwards.  Their role in the story can be summed up in a blurb "your princess is in another castle".

However, when it happens to men in games (again, showcased in the video), men's role becomes active; it becomes a quest to break out.  Happens in Metal Gear, Illusion of Gaia, and other games.  The male character is an active character, while the woman becomes a passive afterthought.  And this shouldn't be.

To pretend that it doesn't happen, or to say 'well that's the way it is' or 'well that's realistic', is to turn a blind eye to the portrayal.
Quote
And she showed Irene from Ninja Gaiden in that video! Irene's not a damsel in distress capable of saving herself! She only had a gun! Guns don't do shit to demons in Ninja Gaiden, you need a flippin' sword and fire jutsu.


Again, missed point.  Fantastical scenario aside, the role of the woman becomes the prize to be won.  Like the first video shows... it's no longer about her.  The woman has become 'the ball' in a basketball game between the hero and the villain, to be sought after and be the hero's until the next plot abduction happens.  Rarely ever does the scenario get flipped.
Quote
The girl in the last video posted essentially argues that Hollywood created feminism. Feminists created it. Hollywood only shows what the writers see. I see those girls in the vids and they talk exactly like the Hollywood feminists. The Hollywood extreme feminist I never have approved of is the buzz-cut or butch feminist. That's a dyke, not a feminist.  If she said, "Hollywood makes all feminists out to be dykes," I'd agree with that.


"Hollywood only shows what the writers see".
Exactly.  The writers are perpetuating the trope, rather than going past it.
I am hoping that within my lifetime this problem is overcome.
Quote
And I didn't insult anyone, I criticized her looks. Girl 1 is ugly in a flannel shirt. Who the fuck even wears flannel these days? That's a lumberjack's outfit. Girl or guy, flannel is a fashion faux pas.


You criticized her looks... in an insulting way.  And in doing so, you are invoking a fallacy that what she says has no merit because of her looks, and that the only reason she's even speaking out is because she's jealous or bitter that no one would rescue her.  That would be the Ad Hominem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem) fallacy; Attacking the traits of an opponent as a means to invalidate their arguments.

...which paints you in a very bad light and did not need to be said, to illustrate your point. 
Quote
If Rush Limbaugh coined Feminazi, I'd believe it. That guy's an idiot. I tried watching his show when he was on TV in my college days and I couldn't stand listening to him. Should change his name to Bullroarer Rush. A feminazi is a girl that thinks women are equal to men and should all work together for the benefit of the whole country by waging war against Jews. For Rush to even throw out the word "Nazi" discredits him completely.


I don't even know how to respond to this part.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Abnormal Freak on March 08, 2013, 05:47:57 PM
I'll just leave these here:

http://youtu.be/p6gLmcS3-NI (http://youtu.be/p6gLmcS3-NI)

http://youtu.be/LpFk5F-S_hI (http://youtu.be/LpFk5F-S_hI)

Everything about this woman screams "obnoxious twat" to me. Not that this warrants the verbal abuse and threats of violence she received, but it's kind of cute the way she uses those reactions to "further her point," instead of addressing any critical analysis of her "work."

I won't bother watching her videos.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on March 08, 2013, 09:38:48 PM
Everything about this woman screams "obnoxious twat" to me. Not that this warrants the verbal abuse and threats of violence she received, but it's kind of cute the way she uses those reactions to "further her point," instead of addressing any critical analysis of her "work."

The same could be said of all Youtube vlogs.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Lelygax on March 08, 2013, 09:48:56 PM
The same could be said of all Youtube vlogs.
Your words are empty as your soul. Mankind ill doesnt need a savior such as you.

LOL
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on March 08, 2013, 09:56:11 PM
What is a VLOG!
A miserable little pile of opinions.

But enough talk, Have At You! :P
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: TheouAegis on March 08, 2013, 10:02:09 PM
"Ow! It's pinching!"

"Oomph! Right in the shiny part!"

That was funny.


No one has ever said the girl NEVER fights back. It's just not shown that the girl fights back. Not that tit happens all that much very effectively in real life. Maybe it's a lesson for kids, too: If you ever get abducted, don't fight back, wait for a hero to come save you. I'm saying I acknowledge that abductions happen to just about anyone. And I told you too that a game where a guy busts out of captivity more easily than it is to break into a bunker has always been a peeve of mine. I always thought a prison break should have been near the final level of a game because it's harder to break out than it is to break in.

Of course women are objects, as are guys. Do you have substance? Does she have substance? Yes to both, so everyone's an object. You can sell a guy and you can sell a girl because they are both objects. Girls aren't simple abstract thoughts that supposedly created the world with a blink of an eye and wriggle of the nose. Every person is an object and every person has a value. At least the damsels-in-distress in video games are shown to have worth.

Does everyone here simply want a video game that's more realistic where a girl gets kidnapped and the protagonist says, "Someone please save my girlfriend for me!"? Or maybe a game where the guy gets abducted and the female protagonist says, "Screw that loser. If he can't fend for  himself, I don't want anything more to do with him. Look at me, I can do better than him and everyone knows it."?
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Phoenix7786 on March 08, 2013, 10:08:02 PM
Wow, someone is guilty of male prejudice.

Actually, though the original article talks about the core Mario games, in which Peach is indeed the damsel in distress, when one plays the side-story Mario games, one can clearly see Peach's point of view on a lot of things, and she actually manages to get a lot done.

Or how in Super Mario RPG she is fully playable, and without a doubt the best healer in the game.

Honestly look at how much ass Sheva kicks in RE5. Chris and her are mutually beneficial to one another, are equally helpful to one another, and even save each other's lives. She is definitely no damsel in distress.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Lelygax on March 08, 2013, 10:38:59 PM
No one has ever said the girl NEVER fights back. It's just not shown that the girl fights back. Not that tit happens all that much very effectively in real life.

Not that tit happens all that much very effectively in real life.

xD

Also I dont see kids arquing like "Hey, they kidnapped this kid in this game" or a dog "Woof! Woof dog Kwoofnap woof woof game!". We needed a motivation in the story that is to save someone that we love, someone that is important for us, its cool how the great masses finds ever something to nitpick, Its like racism, we need and want equally rights and treatments, but in Brazil they did a LOT of laws to benefit only black people and a LOT of laws to benefit only womans. So I ask you, where is the equally things in there? Its like the politicians do a half-done law and says "hey, lets do that so they stop protesting, that should make they shut up and forget the main point", and guess what? Its working until now and no one seems to notice that. Why? Because they didn't want to lose their benefits! I doesnt know if in the rest of the world its like that too, but atleast here it how it happens.

 A woman beat a man? Haha what a pathetic man.
 A man beat a woman?  Coward!
 A black guy uses racism? We need to shut up.
 A white man uses racism? We need to go to jail.

Im not talking about right or wrong, but I really doesnt see what part of this is equal. Its only unfair and while they dont turn this world in a real equality instead of a "fabricated" one, we will still argue more and more for a thing that isn't even equal since the beggining. No, I dont want to beat womans and Im not a racist, but I've seen a plenty of people abusing from this special benefits to prejudice innocent persons, its rare but still happens.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Abnormal Freak on March 08, 2013, 10:51:36 PM
The same could be said of all Youtube vlogs.

How many "vloggers" attempt to do a so-called critical analysis on a subject based on their own thesis, which gains almost $200,000 in Kickstarter donations for research and a series of videos to be made on the matter? ($200k that I doubt she would have gotten had she not played the victim card after the 4chan morons stepped in.) This isn't just some vlogger; she's out to make a mighty big point and wanting others to either think like her or feel guilty for having different ideas. This ain't the humbleness of a boogie2988, et al.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Lelygax on March 08, 2013, 11:07:30 PM
What?! She wants money? All that money?! It sounds like oportunism to me, I thought that she only wanted some "likes" and "retweets". I liked her video, but that isn't cool.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: TheouAegis on March 08, 2013, 11:16:14 PM
@Lelygax in reply 2 posts up
That's a case of politicians bending to one "political party". That's just plain bad politics, not the fault of the Equal Rights Movement. The real kicker is people who are for Equal Rights for blacks aren't always for Equal Rights for gays or Equal Rights for Women. Rather, it's broken down into subgroups who all find one thing in common:

Black Gay Supporters
Black Straight Male supporters
Black Male Supporters
Black Straight supporters
Black Female supporters
Black Straight Female supporters
Black Gay Female SUpporters
Black Gay Supporters
White Gay Supporters
White Female Supporters
Gay Female Supporters
...And so on

There are some people out there that are fully for equal rights, but I think most people don't actually believe in full equal rights. Even if you found someone that's entirely in favor of equal rights for blacks, Hispanics, Asians, indians, whites, men and women, gays and lesbians, transgendered and bisexual, bestial and zoophilial, etc. etc., they'd probably still be pro-My Country and anti-Their Country. People will always be opposed to equal rights for SOMEONE because if everyone gets equal rights, then they won't get special rights and that's just not fair.

A rights extremist though would never be happy with a middle ground and would never agree to meet at a median. Those people do exist and they are the ones represented by Hollywood. If the soft-spoken fems want to erase that stereotype, they'll need to silence the more outspoken extremists.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Lelygax on March 08, 2013, 11:33:17 PM
People will always be opposed to equal rights for SOMEONE because if everyone gets equal rights, then they won't get special rights and that's just not fair.

And thats the problem, to me the only cases of special rights that are fair are for people with advanced age, pregnants, people with babies and people with some kind of disease.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Ratty on March 09, 2013, 12:04:38 AM
Everything about this woman screams "obnoxious twat" to me. Not that this warrants the verbal abuse and threats of violence she received, but it's kind of cute the way she uses those reactions to "further her point," instead of addressing any critical analysis of her "work."

I won't bother watching her videos.

I'm here to listen to and judge her thoughts on video games based on their own merits, not her personal life or history. EDIT: Though reading your post below apparently she's a sex-negative feminist which is very unfortunate and backward, but we'll see if and how this colors her commentary on women in video games outside of straight porn titles.

What?! She wants money? All that money?! It sounds like oportunism to me, I thought that she only wanted some "likes" and "retweets". I liked her video, but that isn't cool.

When she announced her video series many gamers assumed since she was a feminist that all she was going to do would be bash video games.
They bitched and moaned so loudly that she would dare to have an opinion on games that thousands of people heard about it who never would have otherwise. And when she set up a kickstarter to fund the series (for expenses like buying the video games to play for research, and those fancy intro animations) she got way more money than anyone expected. She was sort of a minor celebrity for a while as a result, she even did a TED Talk, all because a bunch of anons couldn't stand her having free speech and wanted to troll her into silence.

No one has ever said the girl NEVER fights back. It's just not shown that the girl fights back.

If it's not shown or mentioned then it's not part of the story. And it all becomes about the male hero's journey, not hers. The problem isn't that this happens, it's that it happens SO MUCH that in games women are usually interchangeable with inanimate objects rather than real characters.

Not that tit happens all that much very effectively in real life. Maybe it's a lesson for kids, too: If you ever get abducted, don't fight back, wait for a hero to come save you. I'm saying I acknowledge that abductions happen to just about anyone.

Yes they happen to just about everyone. Then why it is it that 99.9% of the time when someone in a game is abducted it's a female who has to be saved by a male? So that she might as well be inanimate stolen goods. Meanwhile if a man is kidnapped in a story he is almost always shown to at least try to escape.

Of course women are objects, as are guys. Do you have substance? Does she have substance? ...At least the damsels-in-distress in video games are shown to have worth.
And what is the worth they are shown to have? A brilliant personality, are they strong, smart, resourceful? No, they sit there quietly and look pretty waiting for men to rescue them. Now just try to remember you've seen a male character portrayed with those qualities that you would call "positive".

Does everyone here simply want a video game that's more realistic where a girl gets kidnapped and the protagonist says, "Someone please save my girlfriend for me!"? Or maybe a game where the guy gets abducted and the female protagonist says, "Screw that loser. If he can't fend for  himself, I don't want anything more to do with him. Look at me, I can do better than him and everyone knows it."?

Since it's equally unlikely for a man as a woman to go out and fight an army by themselves to rescue someone, why can't we have more strong female characters out fighting to save their loved ones? The females in the Streets of Rage and Final Fight series worked as well as the men, so why are such characters so rare in video games at large? (And why did the girls have to wait for sequels to get introduced?)

And I didn't insult anyone, I criticized her looks. Girl 1 is ugly in a flannel shirt. Who the fuck even wears flannel these days? That's a lumberjack's outfit. Girl or guy, flannel is a fashion faux pas.

Jorge already addressed most of what I was going to respond to in that post but wow, I just have to say this disturbs me a little bit. Her looks have no bearing on her argument at all, would you talk about her voice it was audio only? And the real question- would you question the validity of a man's views on video games based on whether he was wearing a plaid shirt or not?

PS- https://www.google.com/search?q=girl+chews+through+ropes+escapes+news (https://www.google.com/search?q=girl+chews+through+ropes+escapes+news)
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Abnormal Freak on March 09, 2013, 12:07:33 AM
What?! She wants money? All that money?! It sounds like oportunism to me, I thought that she only wanted some "likes" and "retweets". I liked her video, but that isn't cool.

I goofed; in my head I remembered around $198,000 but of her $6,000 goal, she raised $152,922 more for a grand total of $158,922. And she missed her deadline for the first video by like six months or something, lol.

Nearly $160k is certainly a lot of money, though. Is she using it all for research, and what is this research: buying loads of video games to play and say they're all sexist? (Regardless of the fact that the aforementioned Legacy of Darkness apparently shown in a video has a female protagonist in addition to its damsel in distress at the beginning.)

I found this to be a fascinating read:

http://www.kentaiblog.com/2013/03/the-sarkeesian-apocalypse-is-nigh.html (http://www.kentaiblog.com/2013/03/the-sarkeesian-apocalypse-is-nigh.html)
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Lelygax on March 09, 2013, 12:32:56 AM
Its hilarious, a bunch of people really needing money in the world and they donate that amount for this?! The donator doesnt even asked for that much. Im disgusted. Thats one of these stories thats better doesnt know about, but now that I already read this the harm has already been made. Why they have thrown so many money away if she only asked for $6,000? I could even understand if she really needed that amount, but she doesnt. Also research about old games could be done totally for free, unless they are extremely obscure and not in english.

edit: found this on the commentaries from Abnormal Freak's link

Anita Sarkeesian Part 1: The College Graduate (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6gLmcS3-NI#ws)

Anita Sarkeesian Part 2: Burqa Beach Party (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpFk5F-S_hI#ws)

I will watch it now. So I dont know the exact content of these videos yet. Only that it talks about this girl.

edit2: By what I've seen for now, its a bit intrusive.

Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Ratty on March 09, 2013, 01:24:27 AM
Its hilarious, a bunch of people really needing money in the world and they donate that amount for this?! The donator doesnt even asked for that much. Im disgusted. Thats one of these stories thats better doesnt know about, but now that I already read this the harm has already been made. Why they have thrown so many money away if she only asked for $6,000? I could even understand if she really needed that amount, but she doesnt. Also research about old games could be done totally for free, unless they are extremely obscure and not in english.

Well, she apparently used the extra money to extend the series from a 5 to a 13 episode one, and to create a college course curriculum.
You can see her take on it in her TEDtalk.
Anita Sarkeesian at TEDxWomen 2012 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZAxwsg9J9Q#ws)
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on March 09, 2013, 03:14:00 AM
LET'S PLAY SOME BINGO!
Let's read this thread again, and see how many of these examples show up.  Maybe have a shot of your favorite booze for each time it comes up.
If you complete a line, congrats, this thread is full of male privilege! But don't fret, you'll be too drunk to give a shit.

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-ZUnS0gwKjO4%2FTtfjaRvnz4I%2FAAAAAAAAAO4%2FnWm03R-6m_c%2Fs1600%2FBingo.jpg&hash=5f7de86ce3c0c49ae51c8d1c74b9d9a5953b03a1)
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Neobelmont on March 09, 2013, 03:17:03 AM
LET'S PLAY SOME BINGO!
Let's read this thread again, and see how many of these examples show up.  Maybe have a shot of your favorite booze for each time it comes up.
If you complete a line, congrats, this thread is full of male privilege! But don't fret, you'll be too drunk to give a shit.

(click to show/hide)
[/spoiler]

I'm taking a break from my political science and this is too much made me laugh which one am I, I wonder?

Hmm in the end I do not care I just wanna play awesome games  :P
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on March 09, 2013, 03:26:33 AM
That would make you either B2 or O5. ;)
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: VladCT on March 09, 2013, 03:38:14 AM
I, erm... Can I just sit there...way over there, in the nuclear bunker? :-X
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Gunlord on March 09, 2013, 03:39:55 AM
Jorgey-sama, art thou a feminist? :(
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Neobelmont on March 09, 2013, 03:41:03 AM
As I already said, the video really made me think. The damsel in distress plot in gaming was so overused it makes you think whether those plots actually make the wife / girlfriend appear like stolen property of the hero that he needs to recover, being the knight on white horse and all.

At least Symphony of the Night strays from the path with Maria coming to rescue Richter. Take that, feminists!  ;D

Also, this.

Female Armor Sucks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTGh0EMmMC8#noexternalembed-ws)

Minerva's armor is awesome


(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.advancedanime.com%2Fpictures%2Ffe191.jpg&hash=6ef6be3afc66a34de57dfffaf7c3b8293241ce6e)


Fire emblem women are again beautiful and strong
 

That would make you either B2 or O5. ;)

I have never really thought about feminism in games or feminism at all.

But that g5 black/nerdy/girlfriendless is funny as well since I'm that as well just (minus the feelings and gay part)  :P
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Ratty on March 09, 2013, 04:16:59 AM
Jim Sterling made his blog post about the first  "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" as a parody of "The Call of Cthulhu":
"A voice so horrifically unassuming. Arguments so disturbingly uncontroversial. This was a product of something cosmically beyond our pitiful grasp. We are as insects, facing the infinite. Please let me forget."
http://www.destructoid.com/the-call-of-sarkeesian-248138.phtml (http://www.destructoid.com/the-call-of-sarkeesian-248138.phtml)

Lol

I also generally agree with his earlier assessment of the controversy surrounding this series and Ms. Sarkeesian herself.
Jimquisition: Anita Sarkeesian - The Monster Gamers Created (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MxANWWhpMs#ws)
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on March 09, 2013, 04:18:50 AM
Quote from: Gunlord on Today at 12:39:55 AM (http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php?topic=5844.msg126520#msg126520)
Jorgey-sama, art thou a feminist? :(

I am.

I guess it's not that I'm a feminist, but rather because I'm a hispanic straight male, I have felt my share of stereotypes and feel that we as a society should overcome these.  Hispanics may not get much until later but I can at least help by being outspoken about the gender issues in the media with regards to women and minorities.

The hispanics' time will not happen in the USA for some time.  We're still strawberry-picking brown people who are stealing jobs... at least to the more outspoken prejudicial people.

Basically, if you're a white male, you will generally have an easier mode in life than the other types of people/races.  And that should change.

PLEASE START YOUR LIFE.  PICK A CHARACTER.
GENDER/RACE/ORIENTATION:

Male/White/Straight = Easy Mode
Male/White/Gay = Normal Mode
Male/Minority/Straight = Normal Mode
Male/Minority/Gay = Hard Mode
Female/White/Straight = Normal Mode
Female/White/Gay = Hard Mode
Female/Minority/Straight = Hard Mode
Female/Minority/Gay = Viciously Hard Mode

...and this is not counting all the little nuances, like 'neighborhood/area', 'genre of sexuality (gay/lesbian/transexual/etc.).  This is a rather gross extreme oversimplification.  Please forgive me for it, but it's how I feel life is, generally.

Refusing to acknowledge that this is a problem and that, while it's nice to believe and strive for equality, the harsh reality is that we're not equal (at least not yet), leads to essentially turning a blind eye to the issue.  I hope to some day live in a world where there is more equality, but it's probably just a dream of mine.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Gunlord on March 09, 2013, 04:43:44 AM
Hmm...well, I don't necessarily share your views, but I respect them for being well thought-out, Jorgey-dono. However, I will say that while social equality is not necessarily a zero-sum game, the many groups you mention are not necessarily allied either, and in some cases have competing interests. The "oppressive" group of white straight males at the top of the "kyriarchy" is not the only only one with negative stereotypes of the others. For instance, many lesbian "radical feminists" dislike transgendered people, particularly male to females, for not being truly female. There is a history of racial strife between different racial minorities; black-Hispanic relations have not always or invariably been positive, and within the Asian community there are fractions due to their history in Asia (Secret Asian Man did a very funny comic about this, but I can't find it right now, alas ;_; ).

Social equality may be an admirable goal--at least to you, which is understandable coming from your background. Still, keep in mind that others may not share your dream for equally valid reasons, and that it may have a price...one that might not be paid only by those at the top of the social pyramid.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Ratty on March 09, 2013, 05:05:44 AM
I hope to some day live in a world where there is more equality, but it's probably just a dream of mine.

Not so, just look at John Lenon's "Imagine". Equality is a dream that has resonated with millions, myself included. But you are a feminist insofar as you want equal rights and opportunities for women. Personally I think gender, race sexuality and religion are all distractions from and scapegoats for economic inequality which is the true source of most of the suffering you talk about. But it's only through open discussion that understanding and education can flow for our continued improvement as a species.

Social equality may be an admirable goal--at least to you, which is understandable coming from your background.

I have a hard time imagining someone who wasn't just trying to hold onto their own privilege to whom it wouldn't be an admirable goal.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Gunlord on March 09, 2013, 05:15:44 AM
someone who wasn't just trying to hold onto their own privilege

That would be every person on Earth, Ratty. We are all "privileged" in some way. A female minority lesbian is still better off than a female minority lesbian who's blind, who's still more "privileged" than a female minority lesbian who's blind and deaf, and so on, and so forth.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on March 09, 2013, 05:32:13 AM
I don't... think that's what privilege is.

Privilege refers to the unearned advantages or rights granted to a group solely on the basis of them being that group, but usually denied to aren't, coupled with an ignorance/blind-eye to the existence of said advantages and denials.

I did say that my little chart was a gross oversimplification and even commented that there are many subcategories within, many of which may tweak the state of things.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Ratty on March 09, 2013, 05:37:53 AM
That would be every person on Earth, Ratty. We are all "privileged" in some way. A female minority lesbian is still better off than a female minority lesbian who's blind, who's still more "privileged" than a female minority lesbian who's blind and deaf, and so on, and so forth.

"Priviledged" in this context is not the same as an advantage or disadvantage based on something like birth defects (which are outside of human control) but an unfair advantage which is bestowed by society based on factors which have no direct bearing on a person's ability to do something more or less competently than someone else. And I suspect you understand this. Nobody is talking about a "Harrison Bergeron" scenario here*, but about fair and equal pay for equal work, equal respect and equal opportunities based on the merits of the individual rather than circumstances brought about by happenstance such as place of birth, race/sexuality/gender etc.

*Well I guess you are but none of the rest of us are.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on March 09, 2013, 05:47:54 AM
^What he said.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Gunlord on March 09, 2013, 06:10:09 AM
Quote
but about fair and equal pay for equal work, equal respect and equal opportunities based on the merits of the individual rather than circumstances brought about by happenstance such as place of birth, race/sexuality/gender etc.

'Tis a fair point, and one I've heard before, but so long as humans are humans I don't believe "unearned" privilege will ever disappear. Human beings are irrational--not invariably so (I would hope we here at the CVD are exceptions, after all) but generally so, I think it is fair to say. As much as they would like to pretend otherwise, even subconsciously, people judge others based on characteristics which are apparently irrelevant. Not just race/gender/sexuality but even things like height! There have been several studies which show that tall people make more money generally, even when you wouldn't expect it (see http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/Careers/02/02/cb.tall.people/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/Careers/02/02/cb.tall.people/index.html)). So long as our hindbrains influence our behavior, consciously or not, I have little hope 'unearned' privilege will ever be a thing of the past--I suppose we can try to fight it, but I consider our prospects of success low.

It seems I'm a pessimistic prunyuu today...:/
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Super Waffle on March 09, 2013, 06:14:58 AM
Quote
We're going to be critical of porn because porn is bad.
Quote
So let's JUMP INTO damsels in distress.
freud.jpg


So how does my corruption fiction work into your theory?  Huh, lady with stupid earrings who thinks she's all psychoanalytically big and bad because she made a YouTube video?  You can't really say Sophia was DISEMPOWERED when she was given the ability to blow up a planet, now can you?
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Gunlord on March 09, 2013, 07:18:45 AM
Your corruption fiction empowers Lil' Gunlord, if you know what I mean *_*
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Abnormal Freak on March 09, 2013, 08:26:03 AM
I'm just curious where this talk of feminism applies to a series like No More Heroes and what Sarkeesian's feelz would be on the subject? Because one of the driving focuses of Travis Touchdown's is to get some hot, tasty poon by being the best assassin there is. It's satirical but it also relishes in the idea; it's not as if SUDA51 throws in this bonerworthy female character that he sexualizes at every turn and pretends to be above it all, yet it's still rife with comedy and satire. So how does one approach that? Is such a game or story "bad"? Does it objectify women? Does it sow and further propagate this so-called sexism? Does real life really have a big bearing on media entertainment and vice versa, shaping the outlook one has for fellow human beings? Can stuff that would perhaps be wrong IRL be acceptable in fiction given the fact it's not real? Can art be allowed to venture in whatever territory it pleases without being consumed by the all-destroying disease of political correctness? Or are y'all just a buncha La Blue Girl-hatin' ninnies? >:O

:p

I'm genuinely curious. Because games ARE escapism. I'm all for more female leads who aren't overly sexualized (one could argue that the inherent beauty in women makes taking the sex appeal away impossible, but...), who are strong and smart, etc. But I'm also for not waving fingers saying "This is bad" and "Things need to change to better understand our hoomanitee."
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Lelygax on March 09, 2013, 08:40:12 AM
We will know if she is really doing his homework and not only using this money for another things if she mentions Time Gal, since she mentioned Dragon's Lair, maybe she will mention this game too. Im talking about this specific game because its a little obscure but features a girl as the main protagonist, also its a old game.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Ratty on March 09, 2013, 10:10:29 AM
Does real life really have a big bearing on media entertainment and vice versa, shaping the outlook one has for fellow human beings? Can stuff that would perhaps be wrong IRL be acceptable in fiction given the fact it's not real? Can art be allowed to venture in whatever territory it pleases without being consumed by the all-destroying disease of political correctness? Or are y'all just a buncha La Blue Girl-hatin' ninnies? >:O

Sarkeesian attempts to address this question within the first minute of the video. Quote "Remember that it's both possible, and even necessary, to simultaneously enjoy media while also being critical of it's more problematic or pernicious aspects."

Escapism and massively popular entertainment have a lot to tell us about popularly held desires, fears and beliefs in a wide range of areas.
The fact that these works are popular demonstrates that their ideas resonate with a large audience and help further shape and solidify the views in the public at large. Regardless of how "serious" authors intend their works to be, the way the works affect their audience speaks volumes about said audience. Particularly when it comes to commercial products like AAA games which are researched and focus grouped to appeal to the largest non-casual game buying demographic. And obviously do appeal to this group if they're successful.

You can say "It's just a game/book/movie etc." but if you're afraid of your favorite pieces of media being examined it stands to reason that, consciously or unconsciously, you're afraid there might be something wrong with them. Or more to the point, that the employed tropes and the messages they convey might shine a light on something unpleasant in your own views or tastes.

It's not about trying to be "politically correct", it's about trying to understand what we believe, or desperately want to believe, why we believe these things, and what affect these beliefs have on us and the world at large. You improve yourself and society best by first recognizing and understanding your own faults.

Here's a pretty good article briefly looking at a few examples of disturbing female-fearing imagery in popular games and their possible causes from a male perspective. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_259/7705-Vaginophobia (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_259/7705-Vaginophobia)

'Tis a fair point, and one I've heard before, but so long as humans are humans I don't believe "unearned" privilege will ever disappear. Human beings are irrational--not invariably so (I would hope we here at the CVD are exceptions, after all) but generally so, I think it is fair to say. As much as they would like to pretend otherwise, even subconsciously, people judge others based on characteristics which are apparently irrelevant. Not just race/gender/sexuality but even things like height! There have been several studies which show that tall people make more money generally, even when you wouldn't expect it (see http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/Careers/02/02/cb.tall.people/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/Careers/02/02/cb.tall.people/index.html)). So long as our hindbrains influence our behavior, consciously or not, I have little hope 'unearned' privilege will ever be a thing of the past--I suppose we can try to fight it, but I consider our prospects of success low.

Perhaps, but that's no reason to stop struggling for improvement in the hope that one day humankind will be able to overcome harmful instinct with technical advances and a greater understanding of his (or her!) own nature. Trying to make life better for all in the meantime.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Mooning Freddy on March 09, 2013, 12:10:12 PM
I wonder whether you can, for instance, try to analyze Japanese culture by studying Japanese anime and hentai.
I remember I had a conversation with a girl who said that there's this thing in Japan that Japanese girls always behave shy and passive during intercourse, to the point where they're always acting like they don't want it.
It sounds very, very disturbing from the Western point of view, but perhaps the Japanese conservative culture makes women who behave that way more desirable in the male's perspective.  :P
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Ratty on March 09, 2013, 12:37:31 PM
I wonder whether you can, for instance, try to analyze Japanese culture by studying Japanese anime and hentai.

You can, but you'll need to know a lot about the history, social and environmental pressures of the country to do it really properly. Which is why this sort of analysis is probably best used to examine one's own culture in most cases. It's easier to distance yourself from your analysis with other cultures but (especially for ones you have no direct experience with) it's also easier to make overbroad or false assumptions. And after all if your ultimate goal is to start discussions to get people reflecting and thinking critically to improve society, that's something that has to happen between the people within the society in question.

I remember I had a conversation with a girl who said that there's this thing in Japan that Japanese girls always behave shy and passive during intercourse, to the point where they're always acting like they don't want it.
It sounds very, very disturbing from the Western point of view, but perhaps the Japanese conservative culture makes women who behave that way more desirable in the male's perspective.  :P

Japan has been self-rated as one of the most misogynistic 1st world countries, having never lived there I can't speak to the truth of falsehood of this but I can say that there's obviously a LOT of anxiety about social roles and identity there, it's natural to assume this extends to gender roles.

We're talking about a historically isolated and insular country, dealing with the clash of very conservative traditionalist values running head-on into a highly connected, high tech modern reality. Struggling with increasing feelings of isolation as the importance of traditional blood familial relationships wanes, and dealing with the easy to see if hard to define effects of America's victory then long occupation following WW2. It's not difficult to see why "traditionally submissive" and virginal women would be seen as desirable. A man who is unsure of his importance or place in the world might find her as a sort of anchor to assure himself of his masculine potency and master of the house/breadwinner role.

It reminds me of the recent fad I heard is going on there. http://travel.cnn.com/tokyo/life/tokyo-dentist-offers-make-your-teeth-look-worse-035816 (http://travel.cnn.com/tokyo/life/tokyo-dentist-offers-make-your-teeth-look-worse-035816) Where women have cosmetic surgery to make their teeth look more crooked, possibly to appear more "girl next door" cute and approachable.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Laina on March 09, 2013, 01:02:37 PM
It's called yaeba. They've always considered it cute, not exactly sure why. One theory is that it appears "youthful" because it's reminiscent of a kid whose adult teeth haven't fully grown in yet & are still trying to fit in with little tiny baby teeth, hence the overlap.

http://www.tofugu.com/2012/04/25/why-crooked-teeth-are-straight-up-beautiful-in-japan/ (http://www.tofugu.com/2012/04/25/why-crooked-teeth-are-straight-up-beautiful-in-japan/)

Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Mooning Freddy on March 09, 2013, 04:15:18 PM
Samus Meets With Her Agent (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8NM1IgDMvI#ws)
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Abnormal Freak on March 09, 2013, 04:42:09 PM
You can say "It's just a game/book/movie etc." but if you're afraid of your favorite pieces of media being examined it stands to reason that, consciously or unconsciously, you're afraid there might be something wrong with them. Or more to the point, that the employed tropes and the messages they convey might shine a light on something unpleasant in your own views or tastes.

It's not that I care if somebody says that my tastes and worldviews (which don't often match up; honestly, "what you enjoy is an extension of yourself" doesn't ring true) are "bad" or what have you, it's that a person like Sarkeesian usually doesn't bring this kind of attention to something without a grander scheme of wanting to do away with such a thing. She obviously hates the portrayal of women in video games and wishes for change. It's not a challenge of one's desires that gets people's feathers riled up; it's a threat that perhaps someday, certain things will be deemed inappropriate and not allowed in the art medium of video games, which will get pummeled considering its relatively young age and its perception as children's entertainment first and foremost, and because weak-minded people are too eager to follow along with such a crusade.

And I'm saying that art should be allowed to exist without pressure (or worse, LAW, should it ever get that far--and we know all too well that there are many politicians who'd like to regulate video games) to steer it a certain way and dumb it down because a group of folks don't like boobies in video games. If all they wanna do is try to encourage developers to create more strong female leads, I'm cool with that, but what I've seen of Sarkeesian, she comes across as very damning.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on March 09, 2013, 05:21:57 PM
I'm pretty sure that's not what she means to portray.  I don't know where you're getting that from, considering the words said in the preface.
I don't see this agenda you're seeing.  What I am seeing, however, is personal paranoia.

And, again, why do people continuously miss this quote from her?: ""Remember that it's both possible, and even necessary, to simultaneously enjoy media while also being critical of it's more problematic or pernicious aspects."

So you can enjoy NMH while at the same time being critical of what it's doing.  I own the game.  I own many games where this happens.  The point is moot.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Abnormal Freak on March 09, 2013, 05:37:17 PM
That's just trying to shame one aspect of the game calling it unacceptable. Me, I like the over-the-top sex and violence of SUDA51 games. Why should it be necessary to be critical of certain aspects as if the sexualization of female characters in NMH is bad? That's what it sounds to me that you're saying: enjoy the game but shun the "bad stuff." (Correct me if I'm reading your post wrong.) Even though that stuff is so inherently wrapped up in the whole viewpoint and focus of the game (to the point where the PS3 remake has a "sexy girls' costume" mode and Japanese pre-orderes were shipped out with an almost-adult-only partial nudie book) that it doesn't make sense to enjoy only the rest of it. Do you shut your eyes during all the phone conversations in NMH2 where Sylvia Christel is being ogled up and down in a first-person view with loads of jigglage and leggage? :p
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on March 09, 2013, 05:48:50 PM
Yes.
You are reading my post wrong.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: TheouAegis on March 09, 2013, 08:41:29 PM
How do we even know some of these damsels in distress aren't really the architects of their own abduction? Double Dragon probably wasn't staged -- that's violent. I mean, Peach is constantly getting abducted by Bowser. Why? Bowser's not obviously doing anything to her -- she's always hamming it up ("Oh, Mariooooo~~!"), is always in impeccable condition when Mario saves her... It's not like Bowser actually ever endangers her. I think she's just trying to get Mario to stop sitting around the house eating spaghetti all day. And hey, there are a lot of clogged pipes in the Mushroom Kingdom, so maybe she's trying to get him off his butt and out there unclogging the sewer system.


Also, in response to the link Ratty posted about Vaginophobia, one of the people quoted in it said
Quote
"If you watch any horror movies, like if you watch the Aliens series, the chances are whatever is horrible has to do with vaginas, pregnancy, childbirth, wet stuff. It's just all there."
...
Aliens was about PENISES! Yes, it was a very sexualized horror, but it was about PENISES. The xenomorphs were giant penises with legs. No, I'm not making that up. The facehugger was about fellatio. The alien bursting out of the gut, sure that's a bit vaginophobic maybe, but 75% of the aliens were about PENISES until the queen was introduced.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Abnormal Freak on March 09, 2013, 09:43:01 PM
Personally I find most of the phallic/yonic readings into horror movies fucking absurd and faux-intellectual bullshit.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Ratty on March 10, 2013, 12:04:50 AM
It's not that I care if somebody says that my tastes and worldviews (which don't often match up; honestly, "what you enjoy is an extension of yourself" doesn't ring true) are "bad" or what have you, it's that a person like Sarkeesian usually doesn't bring this kind of attention to something without a grander scheme of wanting to do away with such a thing. She obviously hates the portrayal of women in video games and wishes for change. It's not a challenge of one's desires that gets people's feathers riled up; it's a threat that perhaps someday, certain things will be deemed inappropriate and not allowed in the art medium of video games, which will get pummeled considering its relatively young age and its perception as children's entertainment first and foremost, and because weak-minded people are too eager to follow along with such a crusade.

And I'm saying that art should be allowed to exist without pressure (or worse, LAW, should it ever get that far--and we know all too well that there are many politicians who'd like to regulate video games) to steer it a certain way and dumb it down because a group of folks don't like boobies in video games. If all they wanna do is try to encourage developers to create more strong female leads, I'm cool with that, but what I've seen of Sarkeesian, she comes across as very damning.

Well, I can't speak for her but since she is apparently a sex-negative feminist you may be pretty close there. Personally I abhor censorship and think it's never the solution, it just makes some people feel better while actually making the problem worse. This goes for games, movies, anything. Let's use porn as a good and well-worn example - While some people who call themselves feminists want to censor porn and state absurd ties to it and increased violence against women as fact without any proof, I'm a more "sex-positive" feminist. Rape porn, like all porn, only exists because there's a market for it, you won't understand why that kink/market exists if you just ban it. And if you outlaw it it will only drive the market underground and deregulate it, making it more likely that *actual* rapes might occur in production. While also adding the allure of the forbidden to people who might otherwise not care. As long as no one is being hurt or taken advantage of (which some sex-negative feminists will stupidly claim always happens with porn) the answer is not to repress but to explore, understand and even celebrate one's sexual urges. Because they're a part of human biology that isn't going to go away, and needs to be respected and understood. This applies to other less primal urges and artistic expressions as well.

I'd like to note again (Since I'm not sure if I did or did clearly before, I've made way more responses to this thread than I had imagined I would before the second video lol) I'm not trying to defend Sarkeesian's opinions themselves so much as the right she like anyone has to state them, and the worthiness of video games for serious critical analysis.
My girlfriend, who is a much better and much bigger gamer than I (she's actually the one who got me into gaming) listed a lot of complaints she had with Sarkeesian's analysis yesterday that had never occurred to me in my acceptance of the first video as shallow. Unfortunately she did this when I was too sleepy to make another post XD since she doesn't have an account here but I find her points to be very valid I'll lay them out in her own words below.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Valerie's Critiques of Tropes Vs. Women in Video Games #1

To start with, personally I think the kickstarter was unnecessary since her first video is barely passable as a sophomore thesis. Moviebob did a far better job discussing female characters in video games. And he did it because he felt like it, not because he had 160k worth of motivation.

(EDIT: I had forgotten about this video until I saw imbedded in AB's link below, I think this might be the one Valerie was thinking of.)
Game OverThinker V2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iNs5iG2h34#)
The Big Picture: Tropes vs. MovieBob (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfY_yzw_-yw#ws)
That's my biggest issue with the series, she did not need 160K to produce what she did.

She has thus far failed to cover the full spectrum of video games and the ones she covered seem to suggest that she did not do the prerequisite research.
I mean come on, nintendo games have been discussed in depth and analyzed to hell and back, there is nothing she could say that could possibly add to it.
A majority of this first video is making up a definition to stack the argument in her favour and then heaping negative connotations on said definition. Which I find to be pretty dishonest. She mentioned the original Donkey Kong game to be inspired by King Kong and tries to extend this to include all Mario games when it is very obvious that most Mario games from Super Mario Bros onward are very much based on Japanese folklore.

She talks about how the damsel in distress trope is an easy narrative tool dating back to ancient times and yet fails to talk about how it relates to the hero’s journey in the monomyth theory. I find it funny how she completely failed to mention stories like Joan of Arc or Esther from the Christian old testament
or ...Xena warrior princess surprisingly enough.

And then there's Borderlands and its sequel, where Sirens have a messianic quality to them, possessing arcane powers, and built up to have the ability to decide the fate of a planet. And Sirens can only be female. But even just talking about Nintendo (in which case it should have been Tropes vs. Women in Nintendo Games) she conveniently forgets to mention Samus Aran who does not fit into her definition.

And the way she tries to spin the whole Dinosaur Planet into Starfox Adventures thing is very specious. Nintendo moved to merge the idea with the Starfox universe because it was most likely safer to use the Starfox brand. New IPs were a very difficult thing to make successful even then. As for Krystal being trapped in a crystal, there has to be some method of introducing the character without her stealing the show from Fox McCloud. I noticed she objected to the decision to make Krystal more appealing in design from the original concept. She did so simply by saying in essence "sexy = pandering to male desires = objectification" this, is of course, is ignoring the fact that Krystal's original design really looked out of place as she seemed to be cut out of an early disney's inkblot style cartoon. And there are very few people who find that kind of character design appealing (In terms of "Buy me!" attention grabbers) anymore.

To add insult to injury, she disabled comments in the youtube video, mentioning that people are free to mirror and discuss the video elsewhere. Which tells me that she's afraid of having to read valid scrutiny being thrown at her work. Because if she tries to play it off as just another hater, or tries to censor it, you can bet your ass that there are many people willing to snapshot that shit.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also found a lot of valid criticisms in this tumblr post
http://diarrheaworldstarhiphop.tumblr.com/post/44889478674/she-makes-good-points-and-is-right-in-her-analysis (http://diarrheaworldstarhiphop.tumblr.com/post/44889478674/she-makes-good-points-and-is-right-in-her-analysis)

Fools and their kickstarter donation money I guess. Again, glad that this is causing discussion and debate, but she's not the ideal person to generate it.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Gunlord on March 10, 2013, 01:25:44 AM
Your girlfriend is intelligent (and assumedly beautiful) ratty-sama :D :D
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: TheouAegis on March 10, 2013, 01:50:52 AM
Personally I find most of the phallic/yonic readings into horror movies fucking absurd and faux-intellectual bullshit.

Arguing that Aliens is vaginophobic is bullshit, I agree; but the horror series really is sexual in nature. The Xenomorphs were initially phallic beings. The adult Xenomorph's head, maw, and -- to an extent -- tail were all phallic in nature and intent (H.G. Giger's artwork). Aside from the Queen, the only aspect of them that was feminine was the chestburster stage, and that I think had less to do with vaginophobia and more to do with "What the fuck is this thing growing inside of me?!?!"
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Laina on March 10, 2013, 03:11:02 AM
Anyone else find it a little funny that no actual ladies have weighed in on this yet? I mean, I've just been posting explanations if yaeba & 2 videos that were medium grade relevant to the core topic.

I have opinions on it, sure, but to be perfectly honest I just don't feel like taking the time to organize & type them all out here on a smartphone (laptop isn't accessible at the moment). In a nutshell though, I agree that Sarkeesian isn't the authority on this that she'd like us & herself to believe she is. As Ratty's gf said, why would you make college sophomore thesis grade video if you had close to $160,000 under your belt? I know it's gonna be a series, but damn-you holding out for celebrity cameos or something? The material's been done to death too. Oh, and she actually flubbed up by making some claims & critiques about Bayonetta before fully understanding the game-needless to say, that video got pulled without much of a peep.

She's absolutely entitled to speak her mind & I'd defend that right with everything in me, for anyone who was being threatened with censorship & silence. I have that same right however & I'm using it to say that I don't care for Ms. Sarkeesian & her ways. Of course I'm not denying that she's made a few points-but that doesn't mean I can't use what little brains I've been blessed with to pick through her material & call attention to what I find doesn't quite add up.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Abnormal Freak on March 10, 2013, 03:49:57 AM
Arguing that Aliens is vaginophobic is bullshit, I agree; but the horror series really is sexual in nature. The Xenomorphs were initially phallic beings. The adult Xenomorph's head, maw, and -- to an extent -- tail were all phallic in nature and intent (H.G. Giger's artwork). Aside from the Queen, the only aspect of them that was feminine was the chestburster stage, and that I think had less to do with vaginophobia and more to do with "What the fuck is this thing growing inside of me?!?!"

Well, yeah, Giger's a glorious loon, but how many artists working in horror movies have that kind of vision? I'm expressing dislike mostly for how the no-no parts critique applies to slasher films: knife is a penis, virginal survival girl empowers herself with the penis in the end, blah blah blah bullshit. That explanation only works in Behind the Mask: The Rise of Leslie Vernon because it's a smart comedy, faux-documentary bent on deconstructing the slasher formula.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Neobelmont on March 10, 2013, 03:53:43 AM
Wait a minute a knife is a penis I do not get the connection because if it is that's one heck of a short one.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Abnormal Freak on March 10, 2013, 04:11:43 AM
Something akin to a butcher's knife, mostly.

I'm sure there's some crap someone's thought up about the kitchen knife as a home appliance and that's somehow related to women in these movies as well.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Neobelmont on March 10, 2013, 04:14:59 AM
Something akin to a butcher's knife, mostly.

I'm sure there's some crap someone's thought up about the kitchen knife as a home appliance and that's somehow related to women in these movies as well.

And this is where I cannot for the life of me, see a connection. I just cannot.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Ratty on March 10, 2013, 04:15:32 AM
Your girlfriend is intelligent (and assumedly beautiful) ratty-sama :D :D

Yes she is both of those things :3. I'm a very lucky man <3.

Well, yeah, Giger's a glorious loon, but how many artists working in horror movies have that kind of vision? I'm expressing dislike mostly for how the no-no parts critique applies to slasher films: knife is a penis, virginal survival girl empowers herself with the penis in the end, blah blah blah bullshit. That explanation only works in Behind the Mask: The Rise of Leslie Vernon because it's a smart comedy, faux-documentary bent on deconstructing the slasher formula.

It's kind of hard to argue sex isn't a part of it though. Especially when in slasher movies after a woman shows her breasts/has sex she's usually killed soon if not immediately afterward. Sure the real-world explanation for this is probably director/producers not wanting to pay the actress for a longer shoot after she's "filled her primary purpose" of titillating the audience. But how about some specific examples -

Norman Bates killed women to whom he was sexually attracted out of a weird guilt complex over his dead mother, and the slashers who followed him took similar courses. Micheal Myers kills his sister after she has sex and is still topless. Decades later going on a rampage primarily targeting promiscuous teenagers. Jason drowned as a result of inattentive promiscuous teenagers and as a result follows in his mothers footsteps to kill same. And it's been about a decade since I've seen a Nightmare on Elmstreet movie but if I recall he was at least an implied molester as well as murderer before and after his death. Whether you buy the specific example of giant-knife-as-penis metaphor or not, these iconic characters and many of their imitators are literally products of sexual dysfunction.

This phenomena has been recognized by the horror film community itself for decades. Long time horror and drive-in movie critic Joe Bob Briggs (real name John Bloom) codified it as the second of the "3 B's" of B-movies in his drive-in oath of "Blood, Breasts and Beasts" and listed it in his satirical essential rules to make a horror movie (http://www.joebobbriggs.com/index.php?/how-to-make-a-horror-film-the-essential-rules.html) list of cliches.

Anyone else find it a little funny that no actual ladies have weighed in on this yet? I mean, I've just been posting explanations if yaeba & 2 videos that were medium grade relevant to the core topic.

I have opinions on it, sure, but to be perfectly honest I just don't feel like taking the time to organize & type them all out here on a smartphone (laptop isn't accessible at the moment). In a nutshell though, I agree that Sarkeesian isn't the authority on this that she'd like us & herself to believe she is. As Ratty's gf said, why would you make college sophomore thesis grade video if you had close to $160,000 under your belt? I know it's gonna be a series, but damn-you holding out for celebrity cameos or something? The material's been done to death too. Oh, and she actually flubbed up by making some claims & critiques about Bayonetta before fully understanding the game-needless to say, that video got pulled without much of a peep.

She's absolutely entitled to speak her mind & I'd defend that right with everything in me, for anyone who was being threatened with censorship & silence. I have that same right however & I'm using it to say that I don't care for Ms. Sarkeesian & her ways. Of course I'm not denying that she's made a few points-but that doesn't mean I can't use what little brains I've been blessed with to pick through her material & call attention to what I find doesn't quite add up.

Good point, I guess that just highlights how small the female population on this board is.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Neobelmont on March 10, 2013, 04:48:07 AM

It's kind of hard to argue sex isn't a part of it though. Especially when in slasher movies after a woman shows her breasts/has sex she's usually killed soon if not immediately afterward. Sure the real-world explanation for this is probably director/producers not wanting to pay the actress for a longer shoot after she's "filled her primary purpose" of titillating the audience. But how about some specific examples -

Norman Bates killed women to whom he was sexually attracted out of a weird guilt complex over his dead mother, and the slashers who followed him took similar courses. Micheal Myers kills his sister after she has sex and is still topless. Decades later going on a rampage primarily targeting promiscuous teenagers. Jason drowned as a result of inattentive promiscuous teenagers and as a result follows in his mothers footsteps to kill same. And it's been about a decade since I've seen a Nightmare on Elmstreet movie but if I recall he was at least an implied molester as well as murderer before and after his death. Whether you buy the specific example of giant-knife-as-penis metaphor or not, these iconic characters and many of their imitators are literally products of sexual dysfunction.

This phenomena has been recognized by the horror film community itself for decades. Long time horror and drive-in movie critic Joe Bob Briggs (real name John Bloom) codified it as the second of the "3 B's" of B-movies in his drive-in oath of "Blood, Breasts and Beasts" and listed it in his satirical essential rules to make a horror movie (http://www.joebobbriggs.com/index.php?/how-to-make-a-horror-film-the-essential-rules.html) list of cliches.



This get's boring after awhile you kind of know what's going to happen hence the cliches and stuff but there has to be one where it completely turns the whole perceived notion of how a horror movie should be at least in our generation but I doubt it or maybe there are independent horror films maybe psychological ?

Not the biggest horror fan in the world which is very odd seeing as how my pops watches channels like sci-fi and chiller. 
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Mooning Freddy on March 10, 2013, 04:52:08 AM
Movie Bob's remark about male video game characters depicted as extremely muscular to attract male audience is a good point.
The fact is that women are probably not all attracted to big men- but man are. It's all an ego thing. Bodybuilding is a very masculine sport- while probably few women are attracted to men who are incredibly, almost frightfully muscular, most men would be jealous of them. Why? Because that's how men think they should look. It has nothing to do with what women think about it.  The real bodybuilders would tell you that: they don't do it for the women, they do it because it makes them feel good about themselves.   
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Lelygax on March 10, 2013, 04:58:03 AM
Good point, I guess that just highlights how small the female population on this board is.
Maybe if you guys stops talking about vaginas and penises it can change... >.>
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Ratty on March 10, 2013, 05:07:08 AM
This get's boring after awhile you kind of know what's going to happen hence the cliches and stuff but there has to be one where it completely turns the whole perceived notion of how a horror movie should be at least in our generation but I doubt it or maybe there are independent horror films maybe psychological ?

Not the biggest horror fan in the world which is very odd seeing as how my pops watches channels like sci-fi and chiller.

Oh the horror genre is a very diverse one, but the "promiscuous girls get killed" and "lone, usually virginal female survivor" tropes are big in the slasher sub-genre. Especially in the 80s when that sub-genre was hugely popular. The formula got mixed up a little during the short, awful self-aware slasher revival of the 90s that followed the success of "Scream" but it's usually fairly rigid. Something "Scream" itself commented on in a "ironically pointing it out" 90s kind of way.

I'd like to step in and say that I love horror movies and have since I was a little kid. Though mostly I like old monster movies rather than more recent gore-fests that's a matter of personal taste. Horror films are a great cathartic outlet and way to explore social boundaries, and sometimes you just wanna see a guy in a monster suite. I'm not trying to condemn the genre/films (or their fans) here, just to examine them and the messages they send.

Maybe if you guys stops talking about vaginas and penises it can change... >.>

Eh I don't think this particular topic is turning away too many women Lely ;P
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Abnormal Freak on March 10, 2013, 05:14:25 AM
Maybe if you guys stops talking about vaginas and penises it can change... >.>

Nebar!!!!

And Ratty, sex is definitely ingrained in the horror film (to the point where I ask, "Why?" My favorite horror movie, Carpenter's The Thing, has none of that stuff—unless... oh no... Has someone thought up such an explanation???); I just don't think the very specific phallic imagery and such is very convincing. Promiscuous teens killed in slashers, though, sure.




Also, thought I'd post this follow-up to the blog post I linked earlier:

www.kentaiblog.com/2013/03/no-comment-sarkeesian.html (http://www.kentaiblog.com/2013/03/no-comment-sarkeesian.html)
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Neobelmont on March 10, 2013, 05:29:24 AM
Oh the horror genre is a very diverse one, but the "promiscuous girls get killed" and "lone, usually virginal female survivor" tropes are big in the slasher sub-genre. Especially in the 80s when that sub-genre was hugely popular. The formula got mixed up a little during the short, awful self-aware slasher revival of the 90s that followed the success of "Scream" but it's usually fairly rigid. Something "Scream" itself commented on in a "ironically pointing it out" 90s kind of way.

I'd like to step in and say that I love horror movies and have since I was a little kid (though mostly I like old monster movies rather than more recent gore-fests that's a matter of personal taste) I'm not trying to condemn them here, just to examine them and the messages they send.

Eh I don't think this particular topic is turning away too many women Lely ;P

Yeah even if I do not watch the most horror I tend to like the classics, massive amounts of blood is not necessary to invoke fear, even with the vast genre I tend to not watch them  :(  . But I tend to like some of the classic like the seventh seal I watched it along time ago and have not completed it yet but it was good. I guess I like thematically induced stories instead of pure gory stuff.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Ratty on March 10, 2013, 05:50:15 AM
Also, thought I'd post this follow-up to the blog post I linked earlier:

www.kentaiblog.com/2013/03/no-comment-sarkeesian.html (http://www.kentaiblog.com/2013/03/no-comment-sarkeesian.html)

Another thought provoking post from that blog, good stuff. It's really too bad that Sarkeesian has decided to abstain from the dialog she claims to want to participate in, instead just turning it into a carefully crafted lecture to support her own views. This could damage the discourse in the gaming community at large and just reinforce stereotypes of feminists, while simply splitting the opinions into two camps instead of actually causing introspection and discussion.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Laina on March 10, 2013, 02:25:50 PM
Another thought provoking post from that blog, good stuff. It's really too bad that Sarkeesian has decided to abstain from the dialog she claims to want to participate in, instead just turning it into a carefully crafted lecture to support her own views. This could damage the discourse in the gaming community at large and just reinforce stereotypes of feminists, while simply splitting the opinions into two camps instead of actually causing introspection and discussion.

Word.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on March 10, 2013, 02:39:52 PM
I love "The Cabin In The Woods" 'cuz it turns all those tropes upside down by deconstructing 'em.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: X on March 10, 2013, 05:01:21 PM
I have to give it to Bob. Those two videos were done exceptionally well and really drove home what everyone's trying to say, especially when he talks about God in the first video. I haven't watched what's-her-name's vids, but now I don't think I really want to. I'm all for feminism so long as it's not fascist orientated. Isaac Asimov, aside from being a prolific sci-fi writer was also a feminist and a strong supporter of women.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Laina on March 10, 2013, 05:06:23 PM
I have to give it to Bob. Those two videos were done exceptionally well and really drove home what everyone's trying to say, especially when he talks about God in the first video. I haven't watched what's-her-name's vids, but now I don't think I really want to. I'm all for feminism so long as it's not fascist orientated. Isaac Asimov, aside from being a prolific sci-fi writer was also a feminist and a strong supporter of women.

You're really not missing anything. And I didn't know that about Mr. Asimov. I'm learning! Yay!
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Gunlord on March 10, 2013, 09:39:46 PM
To be fair, not allowing comments on her videos is one thing I can't blame Ms. Sarkeesian too much for. Youtube comments are almost always horribad.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Lelygax on March 10, 2013, 10:09:36 PM
Yeah, it is, but when its a debate and she have been received donations, she should let it open. How the persons that donated can give their feedback and say what they think if she did that? She even disabled the option for rate her video Gunlord. :(
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Pfil on March 11, 2013, 12:39:06 AM
I love "The Cabin In The Woods" 'cuz it turns all those tropes upside down by deconstructing 'em.
That is one of the most original horror movies I've seen in years. It's fantastic!
And Chris Hemsworth must be Hollywood's hottest property right now.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: TheouAegis on March 11, 2013, 03:04:47 AM
The knife as a phallus -- I was expecting that to come up.

Yes, it's small, but the analogy of a bladed object to a phallus is almost as old as that of spears and pillars. It's a, um, anthropology thing, or something. The basic idea is this: Anything that's long and round or that can pierce is phallic in nature (makes you wonder about all those warmongers and gun collectors out there). A spear is obvious enough, but it also follows from that theory that a sword is phallic as well and in turn any type of blade. Now, slashing with a blade isn't very phallic, but stabbing is and all too often a sword or blade is depicted as being thrust into someone. Phallic nature. Consider the legend of how Japan came to be (no pun intended). Izunagi thrust his sword into the ocean repeatedly, turning up foam and that foam became the islands of Japan. Hell, just the description sounds sexual. Consider the legend of Michael guarding Eden. He's a giant, flaming sword. Personally, I think that's the story of the first STD. Think about it. Anyway, if you look at a lot of myths and legends, especially creation myths, if you replace objects in them with penises or vaginas, they start to make some sense. In the case of the slasher flick, it's a bit of a reversal. Life is created through sex; life, or rather peace and happiness, is destroyed through sex. Whether you agree with it or not, that's just what the idea is.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Ratty on March 15, 2013, 04:53:31 PM
So this happened.
Feminism versus FACTS (RE Damsel in distress) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJeX6F-Q63I#ws)

For those not familiar with Thunderf00t he is one of the most popular "youtube atheists" who started springing up about 5 years or so ago with a little under 170,000 subscribers.

He's also an Islamaphobe and ethnocentrist who has demonstrated more than once that he has no qualifications to talk about social science, or even that he recognizes the validity of the social sciences. Thus we have the long rant in the video above where he mixes a discussion of recurring messages in popular culture with criticisms of real world actions. I. e. the whole part about Doctors "objectifying" patients and that caring about a loved one in real life should be criticized. (Though I wouldn't be surprised if you found a crackpot academic somewhere who would agree with that.) It's too bad that he does this on the cusp of making the valid observation that limited memory space/time constraints contributed to the widespread use of the Damsel in Distress as an instantly understandable and compelling set-up for a game.

He does make a good point about Double Dragon Neon though, which I didn't know. Interpreting strength strictly to mean physical strength might be a little nitpicky, but eh. He's popular enough that I won't be surprised if this video influences a lot of gamer's thinking on this subject.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Lelygax on March 15, 2013, 06:53:06 PM
I never heard of this guy but I agree with him except the fact he have been a little harsh with some responses.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Inccubus on March 16, 2013, 04:30:39 AM
Wow. Just wow. This chick has no credibility with me at all. And before anyone says anything, I am a feminist in so far as I believe in gender equality.
Yes, I called her a chick. I like that word and I don't get the negative connotation people have for it.
Oh, and her research failed to mention the two games Zelda starred in on the CD-i. Yeah, they were shitty games, but at least they exist. Surprised no one mentioned them. And I'm flabbergasted she made no mention of Metroid.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Kale on March 16, 2013, 12:59:08 PM
She obviously has an agenda, and common sense will interfere with it. Of course she wouldn't mention them!
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Lelygax on March 16, 2013, 01:03:03 PM
Hey hey hey Inccubus, I believe in gender equality and she doesnt have credibility with me too, but wait. Its part 1, we need to watch part 2 to really know what she is reserving for it, because if you watch all the video you can clearly see that she doesnt used Super Princess Peach but mentioned and said that she is reserving it for talk later.

 While I dislike the fact that she asked for money that she simply didn't needed for these videos and the fact that she tries to be a sensasionalist girl elevating everything to deranged levels, I atleast still want to see what she has reserved to part 2. Maybe she should have some real points in this.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: TheouAegis on March 16, 2013, 05:19:00 PM
"Chick" is a suitable term for girls. They start off so little and cute and fuzzy and have such cute voices. Then they get older, poop out dinner during the prime of their life, start to stink, peck your eyes out, and make you want to hack off their heads so you can watch their bodies flail about for fun.

Ha ha ha! Just kidding. I watched video of a decapitated chicken and it made me queasy. I don't like anything being decapitated.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Lelygax on March 16, 2013, 05:22:52 PM
Johnny Cage Triple Decapitation - Mortal Kombat 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GG-Xj8Ly-bo#)
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: TheouAegis on March 16, 2013, 05:30:39 PM
HOW IS THAT EVEN POSSIBLE?!?!

I liked Mortal Kombat. It was too pixelated for me to have qualms with the violence.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Lelygax on March 16, 2013, 05:33:30 PM
Its possible because..... lizards recover faster? YEAH sure, that is the cause lol
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Inccubus on March 16, 2013, 08:19:26 PM
+1 for the lolz.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Kale on March 16, 2013, 08:44:52 PM
Johnny Cage Triple Decapitation - Mortal Kombat 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GG-Xj8Ly-bo#)

>.>

Wrong thread! This isn't the one about logic. =/
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Lelygax on March 16, 2013, 08:53:59 PM
I know, but he mentioned decapitation. Thanks Inccubus.
Also the real reason to this fatality be this way is because of a glitch in MK 1 in that if you could do the move fast enough, you could remove another head. They found it to be hilarious and turned it in a real fatality, only that this time you could decapitate 3 times instead of 1 + 1 glitch head. The history behind Ermac and Blaze are almost the same thing, fanbase elevated them to a higher level because of speculation and great interest.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Gunlord on March 17, 2013, 01:41:32 AM
Has Anita-sama released ep. 2 yet?
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Laina on March 17, 2013, 02:55:19 AM
Gunlord, I just wanna say I think it's wonderful that you've taken an interest in human affairs like this, especially seeing as how you're a magic talking cat. Are you like Myau, the Musk Cat from Phantasy Star? That's how I imagine you anyway. If so, kudos on your thumbless typing skills.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Abnormal Freak on March 17, 2013, 05:01:26 AM
He could be one of those mutant freak cats with an extra peripheral toe on each paw that looks like a thumb.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Laina on March 17, 2013, 05:13:42 AM
He could be one of those mutant freak cats with an extra peripheral toe on each paw that looks like a thumb.

You mean polydactyl? Those're rad. I hope he's like a Cabbit too though-google that shit.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Shiroi Koumori on March 17, 2013, 09:16:36 AM
cabbits are cute but, Gunlord reminds me of this.

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffrizzlesworld.files.wordpress.com%2F2011%2F02%2Fcomputer-cat.jpg%3Fw%3D500&hash=b39312c9922427ec4daf1ba90db0eb06c6290c6d)
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Abnormal Freak on March 17, 2013, 09:36:20 AM
prunmeowz
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Kale on March 17, 2013, 01:27:26 PM
Just watched the vid you posted, Ratty.

That was good. Can't find anything to disagree with.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on March 17, 2013, 03:08:43 PM
I don't agree with most of what the guy in Ratty's posted video says, because he seems to be missing the point.
Comically, most people who have a beef with this woman's video are also missing the point.

While I do not agree with some of the points she makes, there is an overly large amount of objectifying in the videogame culture.
We can argue about why, though we already know the answer to most of that question (videogaming started out as a guy's thing, developers are guys, most of the audience has a teenager's mindset, etc. etc.).

Thing is, things don't have to be this way.
I have always thought of the videogame people as... 'better' than the rest of the populace.  The geeks, if you will, should have a higher level of intellect than the jocks (if we're going by my 80's high school metaphor).

However, the responses to the videos make me think that geeks, at least geeks these day and age, as just as threatened by the things a woman has to say, and would like their media presented in nice familiar situations with no real change.

There are many games which have very empowering female roles, where the female characters don't fall into the tropes (note that I say trope and not cliche... though in JPN games, it's often cliche's).

But there should be more, because ever so slowly, everyone should be able to enjoy games, not just 15-40yr old men, without feeling left out.

Here is a list off the top of my head of characters who are quite empowering:

-Chell (Portal):
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-vtPn1f9s1Zc%2FT-VpWBD03VI%2FAAAAAAAABlE%2FTYKXbkiwnzA%2Fs1600%2Fportal_2_chell_large.1298515317.jpg&hash=f86d1dae8b8b0353dadc2479061ebacf4fa84ecf)

There is no backstory for her until you either play more of Portal 2 or read the comic.
She is, essentially, subverting the damsel in distress trope, although in a controlled environment (since the game is essentially 'testing' how far she can go before the Portal rooms kill her anyway).

-Sharla (Xenoblade Chronicles)

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg215.imageshack.us%2Fimg215%2F9190%2Fsharla.jpg&hash=722a099fc1ddcc4de03fbcff10837ee6e7401c93)
Sharla's fiance is taken during a raid on her colony and we do not get any news of what happened to him until way later in the game.
Her role in the story essentially flips the damsel role on its head, as she's looking for him and we don't know what happened to him.  But she's not a protagonist since it's an RPG.  She is part of the protagonist's crew though.
Also, throughout her story, her little brother is the one kidnapped, and she goes with the crew to rescue him.  That's a little different so it's nice.

-Katia (Lost Kingdoms)

Lost Kingdoms is a FromSoftware title for the Gamecube.  The first (there was a sequel, both starring women) has as the main character, Katia.  Katia uses cards to battle and transform into things in order to clear the game.  It's a real-time battle/action game, so she has to figure out proper placement in order to unleash her cards.

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hardgamers.com%2Fimages%2Flostkingdoms%2FKeyart_katia5.jpg&hash=2aab53ecb82385aeaaa15c7ee010349699807302)

Katia is the only one with the power to save her kingdom.  Once she picks up enough cards, she's quite capable.  She's a protagonist. :D

-The Chrono Trigger Gals (Chrono Trigger)
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgamemories.files.wordpress.com%2F2011%2F10%2Fchrono-trigger.jpg&hash=f9a4d78269e3ab25280c5fcd9ebbf72ed4ca8d91)

Marle: Although Marle is 'erased from existence' (is that the same as Damsel in Distress?) throughout the early chapters of Chrono Trigger, once Chrono is DEAAAAAAD, the rest of the crew have to go and find a way to revive him... so essentially the scenario is reversed.  Marle appears to have the most to gain from this as it is implied that she's a love interest.

Lucca:  Lucca actually goes to rescue Crono when HE is jailed in Guardia Castle prison.  Although you don't see her do the 'rescuing' because you're attempting to escape on your own, if Crono dawdles for too long in the castle prison, eventually Lucca is the one that breaks him out.
Most people when they play won't see a lot of this happen, though.  Most will have Crono escape and Lucca will mention, when she meets him just before the Dragon Tank battle, that she came to the castle to bust him out, but it looks like he did just fine on his own.  Then they join forces and take down the Dragon Tank.

Ayla: Ayla is the leader of her village, because she 'is the strongest' (with a 9999 attack at higher levels, it's definitely true).  And the trope is flipped over when Kino, the more passive in that relationship, is the one being kidnapped.  And she (and the crew) go and rescue him and the villagers.

That's all I can think of, right now.
And yeah, I purposely chose not to add Samus Aran or the other usual suspects.

---------------

The problem isn't that the trope is happening in videogames... the problem is that the trope is WIDELY used in videogames and is seldom averted or subverted or deconstructed.
Seems to me, that the whole thing is just "Lazy storywriters who need to give the protagonist a reason to go out and do their thing".
Until videogame storytelling evolves beyond the usual tree-dialogue, we will see lazy storytelling falling back on the tropes because it's the easy comfortable thing that will move the most units.

The things below need to change:
"The key demographic for videogames are males 13-40" -like I said, make games for outside that demographic.  Everyone should be able to enjoy videogames.  Yes, the 'bread and butter' audience is male but that shouldn't stop the niche markets, indie developers, and small studios from making something that will evolve the medium.

"Women want just fashion design games and cooking games and games with kitties and puppies" -no, women want all games, because women want the same thing men want.  Pigeon-holing what a woman wants from a game can be seen as a form of prejudice; there are many women who want to fill you with bulletholes in Call of Duty games.  This is tied to a social 'gender roles' backwards mentality that's still being shoveled down people's throats even these days.

"Plotlines that empower women don't sell as many units" -make the games anyway.  This is where indie game development can evolve the medium.  Big companies care mostly about the bottom line so it is unlikely that they will pioneer this, but I have hopes that smaller studios will invest in things that will further the medium.

"What's the problem with some tits and ass?  They're all polygons anyway!" -not necessarily.  Just like a painting is 'just pigmented oils on canvas', etc. it's not what these things are... but what they represent.  I'm a straight male and I love a good-looking woman, as well as a good-looking representation of a woman (a piece of art, a well-drawn character, or a great 3D model of a character), but these things aren't necessarily what represent the female populace right now, not the way videogames portray them (damsel in distress, big-titty-bouncing fighter, magical pixie helper girl, etc.).  You need strong positive characters that rival those of, say, Gordon Freeman (a role which I guess Chell from Portal can fulfill) and the like.

I had more to say but it's all escaping me. :P
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Gunlord on March 17, 2013, 05:03:24 PM
Sorry guys, I still look exactly like this:

ennui 2 - なんだか退屈2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08OaJIskeJo#ws)

That said, Jorgey-sama, while it would take a while for me to respond to the rest of your post, I have to disagree with this:

Quote
I have always thought of the videogame people as... 'better' than the rest of the populace.  The geeks, if you will, should have a higher level of intellect than the jocks (if we're going by my 80's high school metaphor).

It would be nice if this were true, considering we're gamers ourselves, but even since the 'early days' of gaming, when it was just a 'geek' thing rather than mainstream, I doubt we were ever morally superior in any meaningful sense. Intellectually superior? *Maybe,* since, as you said, computer gaming might attract a more cerebral sort of people. On the other hand, there's no reason "jocks" wouldn't appreciate sports games or action games either, remember. However, in moral terms, well, there's always been an ugly underbelly to the gaming scene, and misogyny has been just one part of it.

For instance, gamers have fought over the silliest things, with fervor matching that of religious or political partisans--I remember a friendship in elementary school foundering because I liked the SNES while he liked the Genesis. Misogyny *and* cultural insensitivity have often gone hand in hand in the olden days as well; "Custer's Revenge," which, as I'm sure most of you have heard of by now, was a porn game for the Atari (!!!) where you played General Custer raping a Native American woman. Needless to say, my own experiences in various video game fandoms have not convinced me we are superior to anyone else. Again, as I'm sure a few of you know, there have been some very weird people in the Fire Emblem fandom ("Tedius Zanarukando" hasn't been seen for years but he remains an in-joke with some of my friends to this day). Heck, I love you guys at the CVD and other CV forums dearly (as I hope you know, prunyuu~) but from what I understand of this forum's history, we've had lots of dramu and stuff over the years as well.

Thus, given how gamers truly aren't much better than the population at large, at least morally or culturally, it doesn't surprise me that the "gaming community" would still hold many 'misogynistic' views, at least if you perceive such views as wrong or deleterious.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Dark Nemesis on March 17, 2013, 07:19:05 PM
Quote
Sorry guys, I still look exactly like this:

ennui 2 - なんだか退屈2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08OaJIskeJo#ws)


No you don't, you are just teasing with us and our brain, but it want affect me.......(entering into deep yoga meditation)
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: X on March 17, 2013, 11:22:02 PM
Quote
No you don't, you are just teasing with us and our brain, but it want affect me.......(entering into deep yoga meditation)

admit it, Gunlord broke you.

"Who's a cute kitty? You are, yes you are."  :D
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Lelygax on March 18, 2013, 01:26:40 AM
LIES, that is Gunlord's real appearence:
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages4.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F17400000%2FALF-alf-17409676-1365-1024.jpg&hash=61bbc10c8725735b7c5d7b63642d1a8f49b00af2)

Just look at Gunlord sig and you will know that this is the truth. :P
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Kale on March 18, 2013, 01:36:52 AM
I don't agree with most of what the guy in Ratty's posted video says, because he seems to be missing the point.
Comically, most people who have a beef with this woman's video are also missing the point.

I think you miss the point of the video, and people like me, who do have a beef with her video. The point is, if you are going to claim research, and defend your claim, you shouldn't be doing such a half ass job, or ignoring part of the game to push your agenda.

Of course there are objectifying of women in games, there are objectifying of men in games. I bet, for sure, EVERYONE does it subconsciously, if not consciously. They do so by judging looks, what they have to bring to the table in a relationship (of any kind, not just between a man and a woman, love, etc.)

The video Ratty puts up does bring up stuff from what the tropes lady did not bother to bring in. Not even an acknowledgement to refute. She clearly panders to those like her, and tries to stir conversation with stupidity. She succeeded. Even if, it's not on the actual subject, but more on how she sucks at what she seems to esteems herself on.
"Plotlines that empower women don't sell as many units" -make the games anyway.  This is where indie game development can evolve the medium.  Big companies care mostly about the bottom line so it is unlikely that they will pioneer this, but I have hopes that smaller studios will invest in things that will further the medium.

No. I don't get this at all. People will make games because of one of two reasons. To make money, and to make it because they want to. The vid Ratty put up also has this in the video, where he brings up the fact that if she wants more games to uproot feminist games for the public, do so by example. Make the game, and get a base to market to. That will draw more attention to it and bring more people to make games for it.

How do you think game genre's has avid fans for them? There was a game that showed them how good it could be. Castlevania, it was a mix of myths and people liked it. The games were fun, and attracted us to sites like this one.

And the trope lady also talks about women being the weaker sex... They are, it's been proven by science. So it's not a myth, and she just flat out lies. Sure, a woman can be extremely strong and beat up most men. I have ZERO doubt of that. Why? American Gladiators. Some of the women on there, would utterly destroy me, as well as most men. But they won't beat a guy who's trained himself the same as the woman.


EDIT: HAHAHA, I didn't know that cat had another vid. So hilarious.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on March 18, 2013, 01:49:17 AM
Quote from: Kale on Today at 11:36:52 PM (http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php?topic=5844.msg127965#msg127965)
I think you miss the point of the video, and people like me, who do have a beef with her video. The point is, if you are going to claim research, and defend your claim, you shouldn't be doing such a half ass job, or ignoring part of the game to push your agenda.
I can agree with that.  However, she has succeeded in that she has us talking about it, even if there were more than a few parts of the video which show some lack of objectivity on her behalf.
Quote
Of course there are objectifying of women in games, there are objectifying of men in games. I bet, for sure, EVERYONE does it subconsciously, if not consciously. They do so by judging looks, what they have to bring to the table in a relationship (of any kind, not just between a man and a woman, love, etc.)

It should be better.  And it happens far more with women than with men because it's easy.
Quote
The video Ratty puts up does bring up stuff from what the tropes lady did not bother to bring in. Not even an acknowledgement to refute. She clearly panders to those like her, and tries to stir conversation with stupidity. She succeeded. Even if, it's not on the actual subject, but more on how she sucks at what she seems to esteems herself on.
As I said, I disagree with MOST of what that guy said.  The few things he said that I agree with is that she's pandering.  But at least there's now an 8-page thread talking about this.  Talking is how we get better.  So whether you agree or disagree with what she or he have to say, the fact that we're having a dialogue is a good thing.
Quote
No. I don't get this at all. People will make games because of one of two reasons. To make money, and to make it because they want to. The vid Ratty put up also has this in the video, where he brings up the fact that if she wants more games to uproot feminist games for the public, do so by example. Make the game, and get a base to market to. That will draw more attention to it and bring more people to make games for it.
I'm not sure she's a game programmer.  However, if she gets enough funding, she could hire a small indie game company to do just that.  So I hope she keeps getting funding, then. :)
Quote
And the trope lady also talks about women being the weaker sex... They are, it's been proven by science. So it's not a myth, and she just flat out lies. Sure, a woman can be extremely strong and beat up most men. I have ZERO doubt of that. Why? American Gladiators. Some of the women on there, would utterly destroy me, as well as most men. But they won't beat a guy who's trained himself the same as the woman.

Where's that bingo chart again?  Ah yes... B5.
I don't think a woman in the real world has any bearing on what a woman in the videogame world can or cannot do.  In the videogame land of superhuman feats, magic and stats, breaking the norm should not be a problem.  So... moot point?
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Kale on March 18, 2013, 02:18:34 AM
Where's that bingo chart again?  Ah yes... B5.
I don't think a woman in the real world has any bearing on what a woman in the videogame world can or cannot do.  In the videogame land of superhuman feats, magic and stats, breaking the norm should not be a problem.  So... moot point?

Moot paint, it may be, but she was the first one to bring it up. Much like in trials, you shouldn't be able to bring up a point then discard it right after. It just makes that point invalid, and the person seem stupid. I only brought it up because of that. Not that I personally care if it did or not, though I do like realism in games (to a point, the physical weakness is usually not one I would care to be in a video game.)

What irks me, and a lot mind you, is that this woman actually managed to get funding for being so ill informed, and with doing such poor research. I just think it's retarded.

She should've used the money she gained in her kick starter to make a game, rather than use it on whatever it is she used it on. Because she obviously didn't use much to make the videos or research for it.
As I said, I disagree with MOST of what that guy said.  The few things he said that I agree with is that she's pandering.  But at least there's now an 8-page thread talking about this.  Talking is how we get better.  So whether you agree or disagree with what she or he have to say, the fact that we're having a dialogue is a good thing.

Well, Jorge... I can't discern which part of the most you disagree with, and which part of the little that you do. So I just have to reply with negatives in mind, since it's most that you disagree with.  :P
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Inccubus on March 18, 2013, 02:32:00 AM
You mean polydactyl? Those're rad. I hope he's like a Cabbit too though-google that shit.

I <3 Cabbits! Ryo-Ohki rulz!! (no google)
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on March 18, 2013, 02:44:37 AM
MOOT PAINT!
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Laina on March 18, 2013, 02:50:23 AM
I <3 Cabbits! Ryo-Ohki rulz!! (no google)

...I <3 you, sir. I <3 you.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Inccubus on March 18, 2013, 03:25:05 AM
...I <3 you, sir. I <3 you.

 ;D


Quote
this chick's Damsel in Distress video + Jorge's thing about games don't have to be this way in this day and age

I thought her argument came off as out of proportion to the situation.
Yes, it is a male dominated industry and there's room for more female empowered roles. I think things have been slowly improving over the years starting with Samus Aran.
Maybe it's because I have never thought of people as objects under any circumstances ever, but I don't instantly think that because a female is getting rescued in a game that they are a prize to be won or that they are helpless and need a male to rescue them. Objectification of people simply doesn't fit in my head. I was taught better than that.
And for the record I don't recall any instances of a hero in a game truly objectifying a kidnap victim. Most games that I know of are pretty clear about the hero's motives. Mario doesn't save Peach because she's weak and helpless and needs a man to come to her rescue. He does it because it's the right thing to do. And the series as a whole shows that because Mario has come to the rescue of Pauline, Peach, Daisy, Luigi, Yoshi, the Toads, Rosalina, and countless others. To use Super Mario Bros. as an example of misogynistic objectification of women is patently absurd. Where was Grand Theft Auto in all of this? For gods sakes, you heal your HP by way of hookers in that game.
Furthermore, you can't argue against objectification of women without also arguing against objectification of men. Only arguing one side of that is in and of itself divisive and almost equally as ignorant as the alleged objectification itself. If you want to say that we should be better than something in this day and age how about being better than to frame arguments in an "us vs. them" fashion to begin with?
The point this Anita is trying to make is that the "Damsel in Distress' trope is inherently misogynistic and therefore wrong. However, all of her examples are of antagonists objectifying women and protagonists doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do. In no way do any of her examples show the player's avatars implicitly objectifying the kidnap victim and if she had bothered to research the back stories of the mostly older games they would show the implicitly selfless motivations of the protagonists. None of that information is delved into and, therefore, her argument has no lacks the credence for misogyny than it could have.
Finally, while you can say that the video succeeded because we're talking about the issue it does so in what is, frankly, the most disingenuous way of doing so. It's no better than the tasteless SMB3 spoof PETA did to bring attention tanooki. It's a very incendiary and irresponsible way to bring attention to a subject. And in this day and age we should be able to have adult conversations about real problems without all the sensationalist bullshit. We're should be better than that.


Also...
Dale Cooper is my co-pilot

Just noticed this. :)
And for the record, Dale Cooper is my role model. However, I don't know if I would have run into the lodge without a little bit more "protection" at the end.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: C Belmont on March 18, 2013, 05:15:52 AM
Expecting her to make a game that empowers women is a little ridiculous in my opinion even with all the money she has recieved.
But she could atleast try analysing & promoting a few positive portrayals instead of focusing on damning all the bad ones in existence. She has 12 or so videos lined up and guess how many are dedicated to positive portrayals of women in videogames? one! one single video!.
 
So by the end of her web series everyone should be well informed on whats wrong with how women are portrayed in videogames and the various crimes we men have comitted against women but they won't know squat about why all the good ones in existence work so well at empowering women.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Abnormal Freak on March 18, 2013, 06:49:52 AM
I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU GUYS

and I'm sure I'll be called "sexist" or "misogynistic" by Sarkeesian and her ilk for saying this

but strictly physically speaking, Sarkeesian's videos make me really wanna make out with her 'cos I think she's puuuurdy. :B
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Gunlord on March 18, 2013, 07:36:01 AM
I'm certain I'll be called more misogynistic and sexist than you, because I honestly don't think she's very good looking at all. :p That said, we should judge her on the merits of her argument, not whether or not she's good looking. I should actually sit down and watch the video sometime...
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Inccubus on March 18, 2013, 12:29:38 PM
Expecting her to make a game that empowers women is a little ridiculous in my opinion even with all the money she has recieved.

I disagree. I think that not only would that do more for her cause, but she generated more than enough in the kickstarter to publish an indie game. But then again, the game probably would have had ended up with misandristic implications.


But she could atleast try analysing & promoting a few positive portrayals instead of focusing on damning all the bad ones in existence. She has 12 or so videos lined up and guess how many are dedicated to positive portrayals of women in videogames? one! one single video!.
 
So by the end of her web series everyone should be well informed on whats wrong with how women are portrayed in videogames and the various crimes we men have comitted against women but they won't know squat about why all the good ones in existence work so well at empowering women.

I agree.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: TheouAegis on March 19, 2013, 04:18:21 AM
Ennui kitty!!!!

*knows what ennui means*


One of the other problems with Sarkeesian's damsel vid is she basically is saying misogyny and the objectification of women is what makes video games sell, what makes the boys and deluded men want to play them. That's pure crap. I didn't play Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario Bros. 3 because I wanted to save Peach. Hell, I didn't even know she existed until the little mushroom dude told me she was in another castle. I didn't play Final Fantasy Adventure because I wanted to be the big man and rescue Poison Ivy's great-great-great-grandmother from Vandol. I didn't play the Zelda games because I wanted to rescue a princess. The princesses are just there to drive a hastily thrown-together story to drive the gameplay forward. I didn't play Super Metroid because I knew Samus was a girl. I hacked it to see the ending, sure, but didn't play it because of that.

And where does Kid Icarus Uprising fall into this? I mean, it's a damsel-in-distress story, but the damsel is a goddess and you're just one of her angels. Either way, did kids play it because they wanted to rescue Palutena? No, they played it because it looked like a fun game. That's why people buy and play games -- because they look fun! Sarkeesian and Jorge can complain about the bad messages games send all they want, but don't push the blame on the gamers. They play the games because they look fun, not because they have a damsel in distress unless said damsel has a high polygon count and is practically naked.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on March 19, 2013, 08:58:56 AM
Whoa there, cowboy.

Do not lump me together with her.  Although I agree with a lot of what she says, I don't place full blame on gamers.  And, as people have clearly stated, her research has fundamental flaws and she's definitely lost some objectivity with some of the things she said.

As I said before, I mostly blame lazy storywriters and game producers. 

For a storywriter, It's EASY to use that trope.  The princess becomes the horde of bananas we gotta get back.  If you can replace a character with an equally-beloved pile of bananas, your storywriting needs work.  Mario games are totally guilty of this.  They're still great games, though. ;)

And it's easy to say, as a producer, something like "Well let's look at the demographic.  Hmmm... 18-35 year old males?  Research shows they like guns, tits, and blood.  If you want a game to sell make it have these three things.  What have you got for a plot?  Oh, that again?  Well just put something that'll make the game sell, will ya?" in a Cave Johnson voice.

Kid Icarus Uprising doesn't have its entire driving point as that trope (though it does happen more than halfway through the game). 

People really need to read all of what I type, and not just every sentence that grinds their gears.

I go back to the original statement that it's perfectly fine to enjoy a game, while at the same time being critical of the aspects of society that it portrays... or something.  I can't quote 'cuz it's quite a few pages back, blah.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: PyramidHead on March 19, 2013, 10:05:36 AM
Actually I'm tired of saving princesses in video games.. If the game has a great story (like Final Fantasy 9), may be it's not a big problem (besides, Dagger wasn't a damsel in distress). But usually it's: brave "cliche" who explores mysterious "cliche" in order to save another big "cliche", and for that he must collect 7 artifacts - magical stones of immortal "cliches". And of course our brave savior must also find an ancient sword forged by ancient civilization of Cliche. And finally the princess... beautiful maiden who automatically fells in love with the brave cliche.

But overall I don't think that showing women as "weak and fragile" is wrong. I like weak women. I feel an instant urge to protect them - that's just natural for me. And without that, I would feel like my life doesn't have meaning. And developers (who are usually men) knows that fact.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Kale on March 19, 2013, 10:59:29 AM
Actually I'm tired of saving princesses in video games..

I'm not... I'm tired of crappy stories. Sorry CV, but you do tend to have them too. And Rondo had both!

It's not the actual idea of saving princess, its just that there is rarely any variance than the usual. Play Xenogears. That's one where its' interesting and the female is kind of all powerful... but so is the male.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Pfil on March 19, 2013, 05:38:58 PM
Rondo of Blood...
The interesting thing there is that I can play with a female character and actually rescue another female characters!
That's not very cliche in my opinion, even though my female character was rescued in the first place. It's a nice twist to the usual cliche.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: TheouAegis on March 19, 2013, 11:50:55 PM
Fire Emblem Awakening
Invade a kingdom to save the exalt (your sister) from public execution. She kills herself anyway.

Zombies Ate My Neighbors
Can play as Julie and run around rescuing bouncy teen cheerleaders.

Meh. I prefer tactical games anyway, but they're typically full of cliches too. Evil empire invades your land. Mad sorcerer threatens the peace. Three-headed ancient dragon has awoken. Pits of hell open and the world is full of demons. Only our brave band of warriors can save the world!  Although girls are almost always mages or archers. At least Fire Emblem let you have girl knights. ... Ok so they're pretty weak, but whatever that's how it should be. I tried to love SUlly, really I did; but Stahl just had her beat out on so many levels. Point is, cliches and tropes are just human nature. Feminists complaining about damsels in distress is just as cliche. Cliches stopped me from playing lots of RPGs over the years, but for a platformer, who the fuck really cares? You don't play them for the story.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Gunlord on March 19, 2013, 11:54:28 PM
The girl knights are actually pretty good in Fire Emblem, actually. Ayra (and her daughter, Lakche) in Fire Emblem 4 are pretty much indisputably the most powerful units you can get, surpassed only by Sety and Julia with the Naga tome.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Lelygax on March 20, 2013, 12:02:01 AM
You can play with a girl since FF II too.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on March 20, 2013, 02:43:53 AM
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.wikia.com%2Ffinalfantasy%2Fimages%2Farchive%2F7%2F7e%2F20100705234845%21Agrias.jpg&hash=390241755f491f322db4501406122c159a4c73f5)

Final Fantasy Tactics' Agrias character is pretty awesome as well.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: X on March 20, 2013, 03:10:20 PM
Quote
Ok so they're pretty weak, but whatever that's how it should be.

No that's not how knights (female knights or any knight) is supposed to be. When you wear a suit of steel or iron armor and wield heavy weaponry almost all day, everyday, you will gain stamina and put on lots of muscle. Women are no exception to this reality as they are human just like men. And just like men they will gain stamina and muscle mass doing hard knight training for years. Will they be naturally weaker then men with all those years of training? Hell no! They'll be heavy-hitters who can cleave off body parts and cave a person's skull in due to their excessive and hard training regiment. They will be just as strong as men, though there are some women who have been known to exceed in strength over men so the opposite is true too. But many video game designers don't realize this reality and it shows in their games. So I dare you TheouAegis to walk up to a strong woman and tell her she's weak.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Kale on March 20, 2013, 06:26:50 PM
Rondo of Blood...
The interesting thing there is that I can play with a female character and actually rescue another female characters!
That's not very cliche in my opinion, even though my female character was rescued in the first place. It's a nice twist to the usual cliche.

That's true, but Rondo did really have one of the most cliches in there, the aforementioned Damsel in Distress and the Save the world story line. Aside from that, there isn't much that push it away from that except Maria and the fact that the remake (possibly the old one as well, but i never played the old one completely through) that Annette can change, if you're a failure. Spoiler Alert. >.>

I'm not saying it's a huge piece of crap, but it really did have the 2 most used cliches ever.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Lelygax on March 20, 2013, 06:49:39 PM
Typing "Spoiler Alert" after the spoiler doesnt help in anything, thats why we have a spoiler tag :P
And no, Annete doesnt change in the classic Rondo of Blood. Only in SNES Dracula X and in Dracula X Chronicles for PSP.

Also the Damsel in Distress thing doesnt happen like in the other games, simply because you dont need to save anyone to proceed or end the game, its not mandatory. So if someone think that its wrong to save people, he can just ignore everyone and end the game. (Less in DXC, since you need to save Annete, but yuou can ignore Maria)
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Super Waffle on March 20, 2013, 08:46:28 PM
Anita-sama
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv177%2Ftenshousouhazan%2F13503130780233.jpg&hash=b54fead373a50ba4e2542e010b0f23a9ca8238f4)
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Lilfut on March 20, 2013, 10:42:34 PM
Do you know what the problem is in analyzing the themes and biases in Mario?

Mario is not about the story.

That's not to say it doesn't have one, but I don't buy a new Mario game to find out about the next step in the Mario saga. And the Mario games that do have worthwhile stories don't include the Damsel trope as much anyway - Peach is one of the best party members in SMRPG, she shows her capability in both Paper Mario RPG games, and she is one of the Chosen Heroes (or whatever they called them - it's been a while) in Super Paper Mario. I haven't played the M&L games so that might not be as true there, but my point still stands. Analyzing the thought that went into a Mario storyline is a futile endeavor because no thought went into it.

Just my two cents.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Lelygax on March 20, 2013, 11:02:11 PM
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv177%2Ftenshousouhazan%2F13503130780233.jpg&hash=b54fead373a50ba4e2542e010b0f23a9ca8238f4)
Source or no more tentacles for you.
(click to show/hide)


Do you know what the problem is in analyzing the themes and biases in Mario?

Mario is not about the story.

That's not to say it doesn't have one, but I don't buy a new Mario game to find out about the next step in the Mario saga. And the Mario games that do have worthwhile stories don't include the Damsel trope as much anyway - Peach is one of the best party members in SMRPG, she shows her capability in both Paper Mario RPG games, and she is one of the Chosen Heroes (or whatever they called them - it's been a while) in Super Paper Mario. I haven't played the M&L games so that might not be as true there, but my point still stands. Analyzing the thought that went into a Mario storyline is a futile endeavor because no thought went into it.

Just my two cents.

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcommunity.us.playstation.com%2Ft5%2Fimage%2Fserverpage%2Fimage-id%2F24571i280BA891F21321DE%2Fimage-size%2Foriginal%3Fv%3Dmpbl-1%26amp%3Bpx%3D-1&hash=f5afad8707d50b3d12e0a11845cd2ee80296b3b9)

Can you show us some evidence?
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Super Waffle on March 21, 2013, 12:07:35 AM
Source or no more tentacles for you.

Yayoi Kise from Smile Precure.

I've written fanfics about her.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: TheouAegis on March 21, 2013, 01:13:16 AM
Another game that empowers women... kinda: Power Instinct

THE BOSSES ARE WOMEN

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F24.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_m5nf7rTyST1rstxq9o1_400.jpg&hash=928a63946ab64775109dac3ad3e6054d8b6712c0)
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F24.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_m52by2z1yu1qed4mgo1_500.jpg&hash=32ae76ec970718b3a277b6444e2f35adc02606d9)

How do feminists feel about stories like in Ju-On? Where sure, the women are abused or killed, but then they get their revenge and kill people and scare the piss out of guys that meet up with them? I think that's kinda empowering.  That reminds me too of that Fatal Frame series too. Female leads (and antagonists). Feminists need to highlight the games that demonstrate what they want, not just continually bash games that don't conform to their agenda.

Ok, let's turn this thread into a Games That Empower Women thread!

Power Instinct
Fatal Frame
Metroid
Pokemon... in a way
Fire Emblem
Final Fantasy Tactics
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: C Belmont on March 21, 2013, 02:14:39 AM
How about:
Monster World IV
Giana sisters
Beyond good and evil
Valkyrie Profile
& Odin Sphere
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Kale on March 21, 2013, 03:51:40 AM
Inverse Logic!

Valkyrie Profile - Shows that a woman is only good and strong if they work for a man, Lenneth for Lucian and Freya for Odin.
Odin Sphere - Shows that even strong women are weak. Gwendolyn as powerful as she is, is taken and forced to marry against her will, and given away as an object.
Fatal Frame - Shows that women are too stupid to realize that ghosts are not real.
Metroid - Shows that a woman's only good as a mother in the end. Samus takes in the alien.
Pokemon - Female characters second to the main male character. It's only recently that this isn't the case! Feminism for the win!! woo and yadda yadda yadda
Final Fantasy Tactics - Damsel in distress. Agrias is useless and lets the princess get captured. Agrias relies on Ramza to try to save her. Ovelia, and Alma both get captured. Teta is captured and killed, and abandoned like an object.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: VladCT on March 21, 2013, 04:31:00 AM
Welp, time to drop a package I have no idea what's inside...
Arcana Heart. :-X
Yeah, they're all practically moeblobs, but they can kick your ass six ways to Sunday.
Though as I said, I have no idea about the story, and consequently, how empowering they really are to women.

By the way, what do you think will happen if we make a satirical game that stars a Mary-Sue as the protagonist?
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Neobelmont on March 21, 2013, 05:22:19 AM

Ok, let's turn this thread into a Games That Empower Women thread!

Fire Emblem


Like I already said not only do the women in FE have beauty but, good character as well.

I remember in fire emblem 7 in one chapter in Lyn's story she was denied help from a lord because of her sacaean blood . Yeah she was hurt  but she trucked along and saved her granddad in the end, Point is Lyn is awesome. Not only that she is perhaps the first VG girl I had a big crush on. carrie was nothing compared to her  :P


(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F24.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_m83o8ubaYx1rbcoebo1_400.jpg&hash=54160ccb2da6fc359850d7f8dda93be16a31f4b8)


Inverse Logic!

Valkyrie Profile - Shows that a woman is only good and strong if they work for a man, Lenneth for Lucian and Freya for Odin.
Metroid - Shows that a woman's only good as a mother in the end. Samus takes in the alien.



As for a man making a woman relevant or a woman only good for being a mother is 50/50. She compliments me and I compliment her were kind of one and the same we have that synergy to do incredible things .



After all it takes two to tango

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F25.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_maatiy87Iy1rw1ztjo1_500.jpg&hash=d7e614244e0728752e4bfd9fc6e387c073b47b01)


Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Kale on March 21, 2013, 10:38:56 AM
As for a man making a woman relevant or a woman only good for being a mother is 50/50. She compliments me and I compliment her were kind of one and the same we have that synergy to do incredible things .


What? Regular Logic?! That has no place in this!
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Lilfut on March 21, 2013, 01:22:23 PM
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcommunity.us.playstation.com%2Ft5%2Fimage%2Fserverpage%2Fimage-id%2F24571i280BA891F21321DE%2Fimage-size%2Foriginal%3Fv%3Dmpbl-1%26amp%3Bpx%3D-1&hash=f5afad8707d50b3d12e0a11845cd2ee80296b3b9)

Can you show us some evidence?

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.court-records.net%2Frips%2Fbubble-%28ani%29takethat.gif&hash=156522305c9f6d7b3ef3525d94e4eb8a5599c77f)

According to this interview with Shigeru Miyamoto (http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2012/09/24/miyamoto-tezuka-interview.aspx), Miyamoto does not concern himself with the character's roles in the story that much. He says the various characters take on different roles corresponding to the specific game! Though Peach is often the victim, that is only because no other character can fill the role as well!
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: VladCT on March 21, 2013, 01:27:29 PM
Though Peach is often the victim, that is only because no other character can fill the role as well!
I'm not going to shout objection, but them femmies would certainly jump at the chance.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Lilfut on March 21, 2013, 01:29:04 PM
I'm not going to shout objection, but them femmies would certainly jump at the chance.

Can you give an example of a male character that currently exists in Mario canon who would have the right balance of political power and helplessness?
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: VladCT on March 21, 2013, 01:33:56 PM
If I were them, I would certainly be saying "well make up a new guy then!"
A somewhat frail old king would be rather ideal...wait, that'd cause an all-out war instead.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Lelygax on March 21, 2013, 01:49:53 PM
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages3.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20100412212744%2Faceattorney%2Fimages%2F6%2F66%2FObjection.jpg&hash=bf9a27f40f576b732bc3f9f53f59821c169b5ebf)

Its seems about the "story" for me...

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2Fa%2Fa6%2FMario%27s_Time_Machine_SNES.jpg&hash=42dc22c7e6544e46371d834ef1af4da0a8d2e8cb)





If I were them, I would certainly be saying "well make up a new guy then!"
A somewhat frail old king would be rather ideal...wait, that'd cause an all-out war instead.

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20120927162538%2Fnintendo%2Fen%2Fimages%2F4%2F44%2FPrince_Peasley_Art_%28Superstar_Saga%29.png&hash=1af031432d787afd8aaa5428be8354adb127bb15)
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Inccubus on March 21, 2013, 04:19:35 PM
Has anyone mentioned how a lot of this is all open to interpretations and is pretty much all subjective to a large degree?  :P
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Lelygax on March 21, 2013, 05:49:56 PM
We know.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Gunlord on March 21, 2013, 06:05:40 PM
You know, since all the women in this thread (including the FE ones) are all good-looking, feminists would probably say they're all just there to attract the "male gaze." I wouldn't count on them being satisfied until there's a game where every single character is a fat, unattractive "person of color" who's also a genderqueer, autistic otherkin. Argh :p
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Neobelmont on March 21, 2013, 06:24:01 PM
You know, since all the women in this thread (including the FE ones) are all good-looking, feminists would probably say they're all just there to attract the "male gaze." I wouldn't count on them being satisfied until there's a game where every single character is a fat, unattractive "person of color" who's also a genderqueer, autistic otherkin. Argh :p

Not nintendo's fault they make girls like Lyn and Lilina  :P These two are are in my top three( not just because of their looks but because of their character I like Lyn because she's strong,and Lilina while I have not played 6 I do know somethings and from that I like her). But can I ask you all something from it seems that feminists seem to never be happy or overbloat one small detail to turn it being on ridiculous.

What? Regular Logic?! That has no place in this!
Not going to lie I do not get some of the things feminists( I have never really went into this topic at all) are trying to prove(and some examples seem to be crazy). But I'll stick to what I'm saying.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: VladCT on March 21, 2013, 09:40:20 PM
Not going to lie I do not get some of the things feminists( I have never really went into this topic at all) are trying to prove(and some examples seem to be crazy). But I'll stick to what I'm saying.
Sometimes I think the more extreme ones just want to rule over men with an iron fist. :-\
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Lelygax on March 21, 2013, 10:08:53 PM
Urban amazons, anyone?
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Lilfut on March 21, 2013, 10:14:21 PM
Spoiler alert: they're actually middle-class suburban white girls who hate that this generation is short on real problems - no great wars or anything - so they do this to feel like they're accomplishing something.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on March 21, 2013, 11:57:40 PM
You know, since all the women in this thread (including the FE ones) are all good-looking, feminists would probably say they're all just there to attract the "male gaze." I wouldn't count on them being satisfied until there's a game where every single character is a fat, unattractive "person of color" who's also a genderqueer, autistic otherkin. Argh :p

Not all feminists are like this.
Why do I feel like I'm being attacked or lumped/pigeonholed along with the crazier ones?
I would just like a little more equality here and there. I don't think it's too much to ask.



What, now I'm going to be talked about left and right because I'm for equal rights for all?

I actually applaud Nintendo.
Plus Fire Emblem has a slew of character of so many types, it's kinda great. :D

Also, not every one of 'em is eye candy, but it doesn't matter because they're capable.
I have this chick in my party all the time.
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_m2my29fq7j1qgb7dc.png&hash=4ffbc9d09281d4c66ac3d5b2569e498128435cd7)

And this one too:
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.wikia.nocookie.net%2Ffireemblem%2Fimages%2Fthumb%2F2%2F2b%2FDorothy.JPG%2F250px-Dorothy.JPG&hash=eab427bf325330e90484ff17e6d0930a86eedfff)

Also, LOL Prince Peasley!

Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: VladCT on March 22, 2013, 12:10:24 AM
I don't think any of us were directly addressing you, unless stated otherwise. We were mostly talking about the more extreme feminists, which you're not.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Gunlord on March 22, 2013, 12:26:56 AM
+1 to VladCT. You're a lot smarter than most of the other feminists I've seen, Jorgey, so don't take what I'm saying to be against you personally. *purrs at you contentedly*
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Neobelmont on March 22, 2013, 01:25:42 AM
Not all feminists are like this.
Why do I feel like I'm being attacked or lumped/pigeonholed along with the crazier ones?
I would just like a little more equality here and there. I don't think it's too much to ask.



What, now I'm going to be talked about left and right because I'm for equal rights for all?

I actually applaud Nintendo.
Plus Fire Emblem has a slew of character of so many types, it's kinda great. :D

Also, not every one of 'em is eye candy, but it doesn't matter because they're capable.
I have this chick in my party all the time.
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_m2my29fq7j1qgb7dc.png&hash=4ffbc9d09281d4c66ac3d5b2569e498128435cd7)

And this one too:
(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.wikia.nocookie.net%2Ffireemblem%2Fimages%2Fthumb%2F2%2F2b%2FDorothy.JPG%2F250px-Dorothy.JPG&hash=eab427bf325330e90484ff17e6d0930a86eedfff)

Also, LOL Prince Peasley!

Doroth from fe6 and meg from RD.

I'm not attacking anyone I just don't have a complete understanding of feminists and from the sound of it there are some over the top ones  with crazy reasoning.

Also you forgot vaida  :P

(https://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages3.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20080828003045%2Ffireemblem%2Fimages%2F5%2F53%2FTh_vaida.jpg&hash=bac6281d687838aca5c9324f2424854c1eac25b7)
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on March 22, 2013, 02:04:54 AM
Actually there isn't anything particularly wrong with any of these women.
What I like is that they represents different types of women, not just 'slender weak chick'.

Well, I suppose from my perspective, we scroll back a few pages when someone asked me if I am a feminist and I say 'yea' and why.
And then we scroll to now where it's all "I hate all these feminists who do this that and the other".  But when I question it, you guys say "Not you though.  I'm talking about those OTHER feminists.  You know the type.  **insert some stereotype about feminists**

So of course I will leer at you 'cuz either
1. you think all feminists are obsessed crazy people, which by proxy, says I am crazy and obsessed.
or
2. you do not really understand the term.

Both of these things, I find disturbing.

It's akin to saying "Man I hate that black people do this that and the other... not you though, you're alright.  I'm talking about those OTHER black people.  YOU KNOW THE TYPE **insert horrible stereotype about black people here**".

At least, to me.

Or, like asking someone if they're muslim and when that person says 'yes', then a few pages later hearing some stuff like 'man I hate the way muslims do this and that and the other and are so extreme... not you though, you're alright.  I'm talking about those OTHER muslims... you know the type! **insert horrible stereotype about muslims**"

So of course, I will raise an eyebrow when I read these statements.
Not for nothing but you guys are beginning to sound as such.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Lelygax on March 22, 2013, 02:18:14 AM
 It seems that you are misunderstanding some things, atleast I am talking of people that are obsessed with something and tries to push it in everything that they see at their front.

 So its not "1." or "2.", its 3. "People that are extremist, not because of what they defend or because of what they are, but because of the way that they act".
 We are only talking about feminists right now because the topic is about that.

 I've seen people like that saying that "video games are the culprit of it", "video games are the culprit of that", when the real culprit is the person that did it. I dont see people talking about this in movies and receiving the same attention and it simply happens this way because the majority of people know more about movies than games, they use this ignorance to manipulate the great masses in thinking that video games are bad, like they did with witches in the past (Im not talking about this lady now, its a example).
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Neobelmont on March 22, 2013, 02:21:29 AM
Actually there isn't anything particularly wrong with any of these women.
What I like is that they represents different types of women, not just 'slender weak chick'.

Well, I suppose from my perspective, we scroll back a few pages when someone asked me if I am a feminist and I say 'yea' and why.
And then we scroll to now where it's all "I hate all these feminists who do this that and the other".  But when I question it, you guys say "Not you though.  I'm talking about those OTHER feminists.  You know the type.  **insert some stereotype about feminists**

So of course I will leer at you 'cuz either
1. you think all feminists are obsessed crazy people, which by proxy, says I am crazy and obsessed.
or
2. you do not really understand the term.

Both of these things, I find disturbing.

It's akin to saying "Man I hate that black people do this that and the other... not you though, you're alright.  I'm talking about those OTHER black people.  YOU KNOW THE TYPE **insert horrible stereotype about black people here**".

At least, to me.

Or, like asking someone if they're muslim and when that person says 'yes', then a few pages later hearing some stuff like 'man I hate the way muslims do this and that and the other and are so extreme... not you though, you're alright.  I'm talking about those OTHER muslims... you know the type! **insert horrible stereotype about muslims**"

So of course, I will raise an eyebrow when I read these statements.
Not for nothing but you guys are beginning to sound as such.

 I've never really been in a topic like this so I'm getting some experience.  I think you're the first feminist I've had some form of contact with. I'm not speaking for anyone just my self and trying to understand and state some of the stuff I believe in.  Guess you never really know till you have the pleasure of speaking with one face to face. Typing gets you only so far.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Neobelmont on March 22, 2013, 02:25:30 AM
It seems that you are misunderstanding some things, atleast I am talking of people that are obsessed with something and tries to push it in everything that they see at their front. So its not 1 or 2, its 3 - "People that are extremist, not because of what they defend or because of what they are, but because of the way that they act". We are only talking about feminists right now because the topic is about that.

Taking certain things overboard happens with alot of things. Hmm sometimes when things are put a certain way some may not want to hear what that individual wants to say so you got to approach it carfully making sure not to offend or doing anything that might dissuade someone. Hmm it's very though maybe I should go into a speech or debate class.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Lelygax on March 22, 2013, 02:28:47 AM
They have debate classes? Nice to know since I didn't knew until now, thanks. xD
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: VladCT on March 22, 2013, 02:32:24 AM
Well this is a very sensitive topic, even asking how to correctly differentiate between equal-rights activists and outright "urban amazons" could very well end up offending the one you don't mean to. I suppose it really is a matter of eloquence.
As for the stereotype issue, I think it's a matter of self-association. I mean, I don't get that offended at the worse stereotypes of whatever group I might be a part of, as those traits don't describe who I am as an individual.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Neobelmont on March 22, 2013, 02:35:07 AM
They have debate classes? Nice to know since I didn't knew until now, thanks. xD

or clubs(I recall this as a club in high school) I have to ask my political science teacher about that. I'm foggy on that actually. I want to say that there is sorry if that was misinforming  :(

Speech I do know about was talking to a girl a two days ago about that.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Neobelmont on March 22, 2013, 02:36:59 AM
Well this is a very sensitive topic, even asking how to correctly differentiate between equal-rights activists and outright "urban amazons" could very well end up offending the one you don't mean to. I suppose it really is a matter of eloquence.

I may not know about awhole lot about this topic, but damn tred softly and carry a big stick, because things can get out of hand real quickly. I remember in my english class the one before 101. We were talking about race and the boarder in california and man things got hella heated. Edit:
  some sounded racist when they did not mean to some people felt like they were attacked and attacked others man it's coming back to me. Again got to be careful about how one enters a situation.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on March 22, 2013, 02:41:58 AM
I think the issue here is generalizing and painting people with a really wide brush.
Such acts are met with some pushback, especially when you're the one being hit with said brush.

I'm not offended.  I certainly haven't been an activist about it.  But by the very definition of the word, I am a feminist.  I'm not a 'straw feminist' (which is what seems to be the feminist 'caricature' that's being talked about here, also called 'feminazi' or 'straw feminist', like in the 2nd video the woman in the thread talks about).  However, I am somewhat concerned about the lack of knowledge about this from some of the people here.

I'm certainly not the type that refuses to call the manhole cover and wants to rename it 'person-hole cover'.  That's just stupid. :P
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Gunlord on March 22, 2013, 02:43:36 AM
The problem is, Jorgey-sama, that every group (be it racial, religious, or whatever) has extremists the rest of them would like to keep away from. My parents are a good example of this. They're Muslim, and if you were to tell them, "you're not like *those* crazy Muslims," they'd probably agree. This is because they're lax Sunni Muslims who have little in common with...shall we say, harsher Wahabis or even the Shias (Sunnis represent the majority of Muslims, but Shias are the second largest denomination IIRC, and big in Iran). You could tell a black fella he's not like that other black dude...and if the other black dude is the "Rent is Too Damn High" guy, he might agree (XD XD).

That said, it's nice to believe that feminism is "just" about gender equality. However, at the risk of being an impertinent prunyuu, I would question whether or not *you* understand the term if you believe that. Now, I understand that this thread is just about Anita's videos rather than feminism in general, so if you think I'm going too far off-topic I'll drop the subject. I also consider you a friend, and I quite genuinely respect you. Despite all this, many of us here--not just me, but other posters as well, and I hope you have some degree of respect for all of us, or at least our intellects--seem to be fairly leery of a large subset of feminism, and perhaps feminism in general. I think at least a few of us have legitimate reasons for disliking feminism as a whole, to the extent that we'd be surprised at seeing a cool guy like you adhere to the ideology. Before feeling like we're attacking you, we might have some legitimate reasons for feeling as we do, if you'd care to hear them.

Again, though, only if you want to. I think I shall watch Anita's video right now, so we can talk about that if you want.

<_<

>_>

*mews*
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Neobelmont on March 22, 2013, 02:47:27 AM
I think the issue here is generalizing and painting people with a really wide brush.
Such acts are met with some pushback, especially when you're the one being hit with said brush.

I'm not offended.  I certainly haven't been an activist about it.  But by the very definition of the word, I am a feminist.  I'm not a 'straw feminist' (which is what seems to be the feminist 'caricature' that's being talked about here, also called 'feminazi' or 'straw feminist', like in the 2nd video the woman in the thread talks about).  However, I am somewhat concerned about the lack of knowledge about this from some of the people here.

I'm certainly not the type that refuses to call the manhole cover and wants to rename it 'person-hole cover'.  That's just stupid. :P

Well you do not have to worry about me because I am lacking in this area and am trying to learn somewhat. Something like internation affairs and government(my information is locked but once I reread it comes back) like political science 2 and us government(poli 1) I would fare somewhat better. There is so much that it takes years to try and understand "everything".


The problem is, Jorgey-sama, that every group (be it racial, religious, or whatever) has extremists the rest of them would like to keep away from. My parents are a good example of this. They're Muslim, and if you were to tell them, "you're not like *those* crazy Muslims," they'd probably agree. This is because they're lax Sunni Muslims who have little in common with...shall we say, harsher Wahabis or even the Shias (Sunnis represent the majority of Muslims, but Shias are the second largest denomination IIRC, and big in Iran). You could tell a black fella he's not like that other black dude...and if the other black dude is the "Rent is Too Damn High" guy, he might agree (XD XD).

That said, it's nice to believe that feminism is "just" about gender equality. However, at the risk of being an impertinent prunyuu, I would question whether or not *you* understand the term if you believe that. Now, I understand that this thread is just about Anita's videos rather than feminism in general, so if you think I'm going too far off-topic I'll drop the subject. I also consider you a friend, and I quite genuinely respect you. Despite all this, many of us here--not just me, but other posters as well, and I hope you have some degree of respect for all of us, or at least our intellects--seem to be fairly leery of a large subset of feminism, and perhaps feminism in general. I think at least a few of us have legitimate reasons for disliking feminism as a whole, to the extent that we'd be surprised at seeing a cool guy like you adhere to the ideology. Before feeling like we're attacking you, we might have some legitimate reasons for feeling as we do, if you'd care to hear them.

Again, though, only if you want to. I think I shall watch Anita's video right now, so we can talk about that if you want.

<_<

>_>

*mews*

Can...can I pet you and rub your head?
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Lelygax on March 22, 2013, 02:52:14 AM
*pats Gunlord* Nipaah~

Yeah, maybe its better to return to the main topic of this... topic.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Jorge D. Fuentes on March 22, 2013, 03:04:52 AM
"That said, it's nice to believe that feminism is "just" about gender equality...."  Let me stop you right there.

Feminism: the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes "  Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Feminism: the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men."  Dictionary.com
Feminism: the advocacy of women’s rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men." oxforddictionaries.com
Feminism: Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes." thefreedictionary.com
Feminism: The advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men."  The Google definition of the term.

^I support these definitions.  I don't think it gets any easier to understand than that.
I believe that the sexes should have equal rights.

Perhaps there are other people who tack on other definitions or define the term with some other connotations and caveats.  That's them.
By the very definition of the term as described above, since I support this, I am a feminist.

And if there are other people who support the theories on those definitions above, then they too, are feminists.  They may not be activist feminists holding up signs outside places of government, etc. but that doesn't stop it from being any more true.


Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Neobelmont on March 22, 2013, 03:16:55 AM
"That said, it's nice to believe that feminism is "just" about gender equality...."  Let me stop you right there.

Feminism: the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes "  Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Feminism: the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men."  Dictionary.com
Feminism: the advocacy of women’s rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men." oxforddictionaries.com
Feminism: Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes." thefreedictionary.com
Feminism: The advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men."  The Google definition of the term.

^I support these definitions.  I don't think it gets any easier to understand than that.
I believe that the sexes should have equal rights.

Perhaps there are other people who tack on other definitions or define the term with some other connotations and caveats.  That's them.
By the very definition of the term as described above, since I support this, I am a feminist.

And if there are other people who support the theories on those definitions above, then they too, are feminists.  They may not be activist feminists holding up signs outside places of government, etc. but that doesn't stop it from being any more true.

yep it does not get any more easy than that. That part I knew, but yeah as far as communicating and having my hands a bit dirty I got absolute zero exp. But it's really no different than equal right's in the end in my opinion. Just pure equality. But I will say I'll still act old fashioned like open a door, but were paying 50/50 for dinner if it comes down to it.  ;)
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Gunlord on March 22, 2013, 04:06:16 AM
*rolls over for a belly-rub*

That said, I watched the video. It wasn't as bad as I thought it'd be. I actually learned a couple of things, like how Miyamoto worked on a game called Sheriff. The presentation was also competent and professional, though given the money Ms. Sarkeesian made I expected better. It's also nice she demonstrates familiarity with many classic games; not just Muriu and Zaldu but our own beloved Castlevania, Ghosts and Goblins, etc.

I can concede this, but still find her video uninteresting--not even bad, but just uninteresting, which is an even harsher criticism coming from me--by noting that she fails to do one very important thing:

Tell the viewer what he or she is supposed to do about all this.

Yes, Ms. Sarkeesian, we can admit the stereotypes buttressed by the "damsel in distress" trope are pernicious, at least if we assume the differences between men and women are "socially constructed" (which is a very generous assumption, but let's not get into that now). We can even agree that it's "lazy storytelling." However, the inevitable question arises: What, Ms. Sarkeesian, would you consider to be a better story, particularly for children's games (as Mario is)? You have no suggestions? Not even any examples of games "doing it right?" Considering we've had Metroid since the 80s--and more recent entries such as Mirror's Edge, too--I find this hard to believe. Would it really have been so hard to cite a few of these examples as proof games *can* do better? Why did you simply dedicate the better part of twenty-three minutes and thirty-five seconds to essentially nothing but negativity? Yes, you have the nice little anecdote about Dinosaur Planet, but even that is used as a negative example (Krystal's show was stolen by Fox). Why not look at games with strong female protagonists that actually were released? It may be true, as you said, to look at even things we love with a critical eye and examine their "problematic" aspects. But a skilled critic observes the good as well as the bad, and finding a problem should involve finding a solution too. I waited for over twenty minutes and saw none of that, so I came away bored.

Perhaps it may be that there are no positive examples Ms. Sarkeesian could find. That beggars belief, but once again, I will accept that assumption for the purposes of argument. Yet I still come away from her video unsatisfied and uninterested. If the trope she described truly is so terrible and socially regressive, what does she want us to do about it? She does nothing in the entire video besides tell us the trope's history and why it's bad; this is fairly banal if you already accept her premises and certainly not worth all the money she was given. I would have been much more intrigued had she addressed the viewer--indirectly, preferably, but even directly would have been nice, though graceless. Tell us what we can do to fight the trope. Buy videogames involving Strong Heroines who are Subjects, not Objects? Develop our own videogames where Strong Heroines are Subjects, not Objects? Complain to Big Devs until they start making videogames where Strong Heroines are Subjects, not Objects? All three are plausible, though I much prefer the first two methods. Yet she doesn't name a single one--or any other, for that matter.

And thus, after watching the whole thing, Gunlord-kun will regard her video disinterestedly, likely regard her future videos with equal disinterest, and find something much more engaging to do--namely, wandering off to his fellow Dungeonites for more headpats and scritchies.

Mew.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Shiroi Koumori on March 22, 2013, 04:33:21 AM
@Neobelmont: A speech/debate class is great for your degree.

@Gunlord: コチョコチョ *koochie-koochie koo* Here have some canned tuna.

Feminism such a big overlapping theory with loads of subclasses...
So choose your pick.

Types of Feminism (really long pile of data)
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: X on March 22, 2013, 04:31:11 PM
Quote
Separatist feminism: Advocates separation from men, physically, emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually. Argues for women-only spaces, large and small, including lesbian separatist living communities, women-only music festivals, and consciousness-raising groups. Often emphasizes healing and connection between women that male-patriarchal spaces prohibit. Sometimes promotes spelling “women” as “womyn” in order to remove “men” from the word “women.”

I find this one to be most concerning. Both Women and men were created equally by a Mother and Father God. The blueprint for women came from mother God (Azna) while the blueprint for men came from Father God (Om). And just like them, we were meant to be together. I don't like the idea of an all-women's club and I already hate the idea of the all-boys club. Deliberate segregation of the two sexes is crap. We were all meant to be together. It is the universal truth about humanity that unfortunately many have tried to either deny or destroy. In the end, we all drift towards one another. There's just no avoiding it in any way, shape or form. It's inherent in all of us, even the loners (like me). There's no deprogramming the divine truth out of us, it's impossible.
Title: Re: "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" Launches
Post by: Lelygax on March 22, 2013, 05:58:38 PM
Gunlord, we need to wait for part 2, she is holding all the positive things on purpose, you can see that when she cites Super Princess Peach. But yeah, its kinda boring, you deserve milk and a nap for enduring this until the end.

*puts milk to Gun-kun drink*

Shiroi Koumori, bravo! That is a great help to clear the things here.