Castlevania Dungeon Forums
The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: Dracula9 on December 29, 2013, 10:25:31 PM
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Sorry in advance if this is a noob question or a question that's been asked before, but the plot of Haunted Castle is relevant to what answers I may or may not receive for this question.
Now, obviously, when Drac dies, he dies. I don't really care where he goes after that, but I'm curious as to what he does while there. Does his soul simply linger, unconscious, until his next resurrection? With his friendship to Death being what it is, does he hang out with the guy in the realm of souls or something (on that note, what the fuck exactly is supposed to happen when you kill Death? I mean, I know you're only killing his physical vessel but the guy's essence obviously goes SOMEWHERE afterward.)?
The short and semi-spoiling version would be; is it possible/believable for Dracula to be conscious between resurrections, and potentially have time to plan and scheme while in the void?
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I think it would be awesome for an inverted Castlevania series that chronicles the struggles in Hell that Dracula goes through to make it back to the world of the living.
I would like to think that it takes a lot for him to make it back.
He probably is meant to be asleep, or something. But I think the idea of him fighting his way back to the world of living is bad ass.
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Well, I'm actually trying to expand his motives for kidnapping Serena, if that helps.
And while I totally agree that that would be awesome as hell (snicker), I think that Dracula's reached the point to where the door greeter to Hell just kind of gives him a "hey, welcome back, how long you visiting this time?"
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I think Dracula kidnaps Selena to make her one of his brides. It's a pretty basic Dracula plot device. You could expand on that in any number of ways, but the simple reason of Dracula wanting some loving is pretty good too. After all, the vampire is a sexual monster, in a way.
As far as Death goes, I'm not sure what happens when he is defeated. I think the answer is that he loses his powers for a time in the physical world. But I think a better answer would be that Death is the name of the role for the Grim Reaper. When Death is defeated or dies, then a new skeleton demon is appointed to the role of the Grim Reaper. I like that idea best.
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At the end of Curse of Darkness, Dracula tells Hector that despite his soul "returning to the Abyss, the curse will not be lifted." The Abyss is most likely Hell, and personally, I believe whenever he is killed he just remains dormant there until he regains his power. And as dormant, I mean most likely in a half-conscious "sleep state" while all the other demons and souls are being tortured. just my opinion
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The sleep-state idea I'm pretty partial too, myself, crisis. But do you think he would be able to think in that state, or would it just be a perpetual hibernation of sorts?
As for my "why," Montoya, I'm going to give Dracula the motive of trying to ensure that Simon has no bride with which to continue his bloodline for another generation. I don't know if I'll include any sexual nature to it yet. I might allude to Elisabetha/Lisa at some point, but that's another discussion.
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I'm not sure that makes sense though because it's not like Selena is the only woman Simon can impregnate. Simon is a pimp. The only way to stop his bloodline would be to either kill Simon, or castrate him.
It makes more sense for him to use her as bate to lure Simon to him, but then, Simon is after him anyways...
To me, Dracula must be taking her for more selfish reasons. He must want her for himself.
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How is that nonsensical? You've got to remember the times they lived in then. The Belmonts were already outcast by society for their abilities (so the idea that Simon managed to get a sanctioned marriage is somewhat shocking); and even if that falls through, it still was a time when one couldn't really just go around knocking any woman one wanted to up and calling it a day(nevermind the obvious fact that Simon Belmont can impregnate a woman by staring at her). Not without being horribly reprimanded and punished for it, at least. And given the amounts of training the Belmonts would undoubtedly need to keep their strength, stamina, and abilities top-notch would take some degree of time. Of course, they wouldn't ALWAYS be on "Dracula-hunt" mode, but they couldn't afford to get lazy and loaf around in the event some asshat in a hood felt like bringing the big man back early. So time for training is surely a given. And there's also the love factor. We never got much backstory for Simon and Serena, but I think it would be fair to assume they loved one another.
And of course removing half of what's needed for conception won't totally prevent the bloodline from continuing. Dracula would kidnap Serena to lure Simon to the Castle, and in the event Simon got too strong and ran the chance of defeating him again, he could still kill Serena and stall the bloodline at least a little longer. Or Turn her and pit the former lovers against one another in combat. Either of those is appealing.
As for Dracula wanting Serena for himself...that's where the allusions to his former lovers comes into play.
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I think the way to make this idea make bullet proof sense is to make Selena pregnant with Simon's baby. Maybe Simon doesn't know, maybe even Selena doesn't know. But Dracula would be able to sense a little heart beating in her body. That could be a cool twist you could reveal at the end of the game.
It's your plot, I'm sure it will be good with whatever you plan to do. But that's what I would do.
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That's actually a really good idea, Montoya. I'm going to see if I can incorporate it, I love it.
Yeah, I know. But I want to write a plot that makes sense in the accepted canon and will make sense. If I wanted to just make entirely my own thing it wouldn't be much but self-sufficient fanservice. I want to make sure that what I write is believable within the official plot.
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But do you think he would be able to think in that state, or would it just be a perpetual hibernation of sorts?
Hmm.. well, it's apparent Dracula can still be aware of who he is even centuries after he's been slain. But when in "The Abyss," is he capable of thought, as in, plotting what he'll do when he inevitably revives? I would assume so, but only to a certain extent; if him being in "perpetual hibernation" is true, his thoughts may only be fleeting images or ideas, unable to coherantly string them together. When he's in the physical plane, however, he has a much better grasp on "himself" and his ideology. It's really hard to say, because Dracula is no longer human, hasn't been for quite some time, so who knows how his internal thought patterns work. I dunno, that's just my theory on what happens lol. It's really just one of the many mysterious of this beloved series.
Another theory is that he's also capable of using avatars, possessing individuals on the earthly plane and planting his own ideas in their minds so they can carry out, or using their own ideas to his benefit. When he does this, his visions become much clearer, however, while in the Abyss, they remain "clouded." dunno lol
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So, in your sense, he's mentally more of a literal living series of emotions and raw thoughts when in Hell, and when possessing someone he becomes able to think more clearly? That's not too bad of an idea.
Though, I feel like he has more of a similar situation to Satan in Dante's Inferno (the game), in that he's pretty much fully conscious and sentient, but has only a fraction of his full power at his disposal, and is physically sealed for the time between resurrections.
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It seems to be alluded to many times in the series (though who knows how much of this could be chalked up to imprecise translation) that Dracula, like his evil corrupting power, is merely dissipated upon defeat rather than truly destroyed. It normally takes 100 years for this power to coalesce but evil humans may speed up the process. Also as we saw with Soma and possibly Malus, a host is needed at least some of the time, someone born with the ability to be infused with the dark lord's power, but retaining their own personality until this happens. So it would seem that a piece(s) of Dracula's soul is reincarnated in one or more (remember Dawn of Sorrow?) people while his power collects. The two must be brought together, probably with a maiden sacrifice as we see at the start of many games, for Dracula to be reborn. Until then he and his power are dormant.
Hm, perhaps the blood sacrifice is only required when he's awoken early? I can't recall exactly which games feature it in the opening just now, or where they all fit on the timeline.
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The only two I can think of off the top of my head are Rondo and Chronicles/X68 (though, this one has a heart being crushed, would that still qualify since the victim is not sacrificed while still alive?) I think those are both early resurrections.
I suppose the dissipation of his power makes sense, but what happens to his soul? He may lose his memories over time with each resurrection, but Dracula typically retains the same general attitude. I don't want to divulge into the theory that he's just a puppet of Chaos (mostly because I think that that theory's retarded), but surely his soul goes somewhere, right? Unless his soul splits apart with the dissipation of his power and reforms not entirely perfectly (that would explain his memory loss, certainly)...that makes a strange amount of sense, actually.
Hm, how much of a stretch would it be, then, to have a human worshipper make the scheme to kidnap Serena and end the bloodline so Dracula can reign unchecked? Then, once Drac's back in the saddle, have his own personal attachments and fragmented memories get involved with that plan?
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The only two I can think of off the top of my head are Rondo and Chronicles/X68 (though, this one has a heart being crushed, would that still qualify since the victim is not sacrificed while still alive?) I think those are both early resurrections.
I suppose the dissipation of his power makes sense, but what happens to his soul? He may lose his memories over time with each resurrection, but Dracula typically retains the same general attitude. I don't want to divulge into the theory that he's just a puppet of Chaos (mostly because I think that that theory's retarded), but surely his soul goes somewhere, right? Unless his soul splits apart with the dissipation of his power and reforms not entirely perfectly (that would explain his memory loss, certainly)...that makes a strange amount of sense, actually.
Hm, how much of a stretch would it be, then, to have a human worshipper make the scheme to kidnap Serena and end the bloodline so Dracula can reign unchecked? Then, once Drac's back in the saddle, have his own personal attachments and fragmented memories get involved with that plan?
You see, I always though that this "memory" thing has to do with the vessel. He always needs a vessel unless his body is intact (that's why his appearance changes, I believe). Thus his own memories gets mixed with the vessel. I guess it fits with you last statement. But I also have another hypothesis...
Dracula is basically a being made of three parts: His raw dark power, his body and his mind/will.
Dracula's main power comes from the darkness inside men's hearts. When he "dies", his body is destroyed and separated in smaller parts (his remains), his dark power disperses itself in the form of darkness and infects people (Like a curse, for instance), just so it can slowly fester on their hopes and finally enable himself to return, and his "mind" or "will" is retained inside Chaos, and the disappearing Castle.
"Dracula" is despair given embodiment. When this previously dissipated darkness has finally festered on humans and grown big enough (and influenced worshippers of darkness/people/ambient in the process), humans/worshippers make a ritual that sacrifices three of the specific demons' souls said to compose his "dominance", (Succubus, Flame Demon, Giant Bat). The ritual fuses these souls with Dracula's remains and gives them an united body, then the body calls for the accumulated darkness to possess it, and that is Dracula's power under the dominance that is the body. When the body is complete, given physical form and power, it calls for the Castle to reappear, and Dracula's "will" awakens from inside it and finds the body prepared for him. Just then, Dracula is finally complete.
Mind you that this "dissipated darkness" has no "will" of it's own. It just does it's thing, influencing people, eating at their souls, making them curious about the dark arts. What makes Dracula's "will" or "mind" is in his Castle. Without Dracula's mind to control it, this darkness will simply corrupt everything without discrimination and control.
Summarizing: "Dracula" is the culmination of human despair given embodiment through the three demon's souls working as catalizers to "materialize" his body. His conscient mind is binded to the castle, and awakened when his body is ready. Let's say that Dracula's will is "housed" within Chaos, only to be returned to a body when there is one. Dracula's will can also possess another body if the situation calls for it (CoD), but his power will be lacking.
I think that it would also explain how Dracula's power got divided to the Dark Lord Candidates, and why Soma is "Soma", and not "Dracula", and why he is slowly turning into Dracula the longer he is inside the Castle. It's like the "will" of Dracula is fighting Soma's "will". That's why Soma needs to fight Chaos at the end. The body for Dracula's will is ready, but it is already occupied by Soma's will/mind.He has the power of Dominance, which enables him to control that massive flow of darkness which is Dracula's main power battery, but he doesn't have Dracula's "mind".
Also explains how the bad ending of DoS works: Soma turned into the "idea" that is Dracula, the embodiment of despair, by losing control of Dominance (allowing it to possess his body), but since Dracula's "will" was finally sealed for good, he is not "Dracula" per se, but possesses the ability to "channel' all that darkness that composes a being that the original Dracula is, a Dark Lord. Remember how Dmitrii mentions that to be a Dark Lord, all you need is the Dominance?
This is my hypothesis, people. All in all, no, Dracula's "will" doesn't think when he's dead. It stays dormant inside Chaos until a new body with ginormous concentrations of darkness generated by humans calls for him.
EDIT: About Death, I just though of something. What if Death is the manifestation of Dracula's inherent mortality given form? Imagine that every living thing has a "death" inherent to it. Every living thing dies, right? Imagine that Dracula found a way through his ritual to "exorcise" the mortality inherent to him, thus granting him eternal life and returning cycles. He effectivelly removed his death from his mortal existence. Since his "death" was not part of his being anymore, it was given a physical manifestation that is the Death we know! That explains why Death is so close to him. It is Dracula's death doing his bidding in materialized form. Death is a part of Dracula. Also, when Death is defeated, you're not defeating the universal concept of death, you're defeating the one aspect of Dracula that made him mortal in the first place. That's also why Death is always trying to ressurrect Dracula. He needs to "kill" it's original "owner", but since Dracula found a way to expunge his own mortality, Death is also stuck in a never ending cycle. He wants to ressurrect Dracula to kill him, but when he's alive, he cannot take him.
Dracula effectivelly enslaved his own Death!
I think it'd also explain why Death in the Sorrow games is mindlessly trying to kill Soma. Soma doesn't have the "will" of Dracula, but has his Dominance, making him Dracula, or a Dark Lord Candidate in essence. Thus, Death doesn't "connect" to the will of this essence. Death will just try to kill Soma because he is "Soma having Dracula's power but not his mind", or the mind that originally separated it's existence from it's own mortality.
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He probably spends his time thinking of depraved ways to seduce the love interest of whichever Belmont defeated him last and convert her into one of his vile underlings as twisted form of revenge.
And then he writes fanfics about it.
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The way I always understood it, Dracula revives two ways: 1) after 100 years, his body regenerate and his power builds allowing him to resurrect on his own; 2) his minions/worshipers gather his physical remains and make a human sacrifices over them; 3) Dracula's soul is summoned and enters someone with with dark powers connected to him (example: Issac in CoD) and thus that person becomes his vessel.
Regarding the Sorrow games, Soma is that literal reincarnation of Dracula. The others such as Dimitri and Dario from DoS were merely born at the exact moment in which Dracula was destroyed in 1999, thus they received some of his power. The same goes for Graham from AoS. If anything they were meant to be his servants and perhaps his vessels if he needed them to be. But, Soma was literally Dracula reincarnated. He just chose not to embrace the darkness and become what he was in his previous life.
As for why Death attacks Soma in AoS and DoS, I don't know. Assuming that it's cannon, in the novel, it's pretty clear that Death knows that Soma is his master reincarnated. If I remember correctly, Death even asks Soma to return to the castle and be his master once again.
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Yeah the only ones I can recall with the sacrifice are x68/Chronicles, Rondo and the N64 games. Guess those must be the only ones with it. All early resurrections? Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
He probably spends his time thinking of depraved ways to seduce the love interest of whichever Belmont defeated him last and convert her into one of his vile underlings as twisted form of revenge.
And then he writes fanfics about it.
Wait a second... Super Waffle spelled backwards is Elffaw Repus, SW is the reincarnation of Dracula!
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The way I always understood it, Dracula revives two ways: 1) after 100 years, his body regenerate and his power builds allowing him to resurrect on his own; 2) his minions/worshipers gather his physical remains and make a human sacrifices over them; 3) Dracula's soul is summoned and enters someone with with dark powers connected to him (example: Issac in CoD) and thus that person becomes his vessel.
Regarding the Sorrow games, Soma is the literal reincarnation of Dracula. The others such as Dimitri and Dario from DoS were merely born at the exact moment in which Dracula was destroyed in 1999, thus they received some of his power. The same goes for Graham from AoS. If anything they were meant to be his servants and perhaps his vessels if he needed them to be. But, Soma was literally Dracula reincarnated. He just chose not to embrace the darkness and become what he was in his previous life.
As for why Death attacks Soma in AoS and DoS, I don't know. Assuming that it's cannon, in the novel, it's pretty clear that Death knows that Soma is his master reincarnated. If I remember correctly, Death even asks Soma to return to the castle and be his master once again.
I agree with this. Soma is Dracula reincarnated. Simple, and not complicated. How he became Soma must have had something to do with the sealing of Castlevania into the eclipse. Although Demetri and Dario have some of Dracula's abilities that's all they have. It's got nothing to do with Soma's soul as the soul itself cannot be displaced into more then one person. The soul just doesn't work that way. As for Graham, I have yet to see what kind of powers he has naturally. They only time you see him with any abilities is during the scene with him stabbing Yoko. So I doubt he was born with it but he acquired it just before the confrontation with Yoko. And Yoko said herself that Graham has absorbed some of the castle's power so It's obvious from that perspective that he didn't have any prior to coming to Castlevania. If anything he believed himself Dracula because of his being born at the same exact time Dracula perished. A egocentric, self-absorbed obsession if you will. Otherwise he'd be nothing without that belief.
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Graham, Dimitri, and Dario were all born at the exact moment that Dracula was destroyed in 1999 and for some reason received some power. It is also possible that all the children born at that exact moment also received some power. We just don't know. We only know about these three.
When Yoko said that he absorbed the castle's power, she meant just that. He got to the throne room where he absorbed it. Simple as that. Anyone can absorb the castle's power if they get to the throne room assuming no one already has it. Or, at least that's how I understand it.
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Graham, Dimitri, and Dario were all born at the exact moment that Dracula was destroyed in 1999 and for some reason received some power. It is also possible that all the children born at that exact moment also received some power. We just don't know. We only know about these three.
When Yoko said that he absorbed the castle's power, she meant just that. He got to the throne room where he absorbed it. Simple as that. Anyone can absorb the castle's power if they get to the throne room assuming no one already has it. Or, at least that's how I understand it.
It's funny, I found out that there was a avg of 4.3 people born on the same second (based on 370,000, the average born daily), meaning that there is up to 2 more Dark lord Candidates that we'll probably never see.
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It's funny, I found out that there was a avg of 4.3 people born on the same second (based on 370,000, the average born daily), meaning that there is up to 2 more Dark lord Candidates that we'll probably never see.
That's probably for the best. DoS wasn't a very good story to begin with and I highly doubt that IGA could have told a better one if a game sequel to DoS was made. It should have all ended with AoS.
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That's probably for the best. DoS wasn't a very good story to begin with and I highly doubt that IGA could have told a better one if a game sequel to DoS was made. It should have all ended with AoS.
DoS was driven by the gimmicks first and story last.
There won't be a game sequel for DoS since IGA's out of the picture.
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DoS was driven by the gimmicks first and story last.
There won't be a game sequel for DoS since IGA's out of the picture.
Every Igavania is gimmicks first and story last. That's his MO. If there is a sequel to DoS, let's hope that someone other than IGA does it. And, I completely agree that it should have ended with AoS. DoS was just an excuse to reuse Soma in a game.
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Though, I feel like he has more of a similar situation to Satan in Dante's Inferno (the game), in that he's pretty much fully conscious and sentient, but has only a fraction of his full power at his disposal, and is physically sealed for the time between resurrections.
I was going to give this example. Thanks. :)
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Every Igavania is gimmicks first and story last. That's his MO. If there is a sequel to DoS, let's hope that someone other than IGA does it. And, I completely agree that it should have ended with AoS. DoS was just an excuse to reuse Soma in a game.
Hey, I'm pretty satisfied with DoS as it is. Granted, its plot and art design were absolutely awful, but the game nailed just about everything else -- and it's probably one of the best-remembered Igavanias after Symphony. Poor narrative isn't enough of a reason to wish it out of the picture.
I'm not sure what you mean by "gimmicks", either. I've heard this said on another topic, but I'm not exactly convinced. With the exception of DoS, and PoR if you stretch it, IGA's plots have always been perfectly decent.
On topic:
I'm not exactly sure why a dead Dracula should be doing anything in the first place. In my world, at least, death severely limits those kind of opportunities...
Of course, if you're particularly imaginative, you could certainly imagine Dracula's soul wandering in the underworld... But that's about all I can see.
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Either that or he could be stuck in limbo. Not being able to move, talk, interact or just not being able to do anything period. Then when he's finally brought back to life he remembers his time in limbo and gets more pissed about it every single time he's killed and goes back there.
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I'm not exactly sure why a dead Dracula should be doing anything in the first place. In my world, at least, death severely limits those kind of opportunities...
Exactly. Your world. Not his. Dracula isn't human, remember? He's infused with entropy and Chaos and has his own personal soul reaper at his beck and call. The rules that apply to us don't apply to him. My whole theory is that Dracula's mind (not his will, I do differentiate) can't just remain totally dormant for the timespan simply because of how powerful the guy is. That's why I made the reference to Satan in Dante's Inferno (on that note, no prob, Chernabogue. I was wondering if anyone else would think of it.). I just can't wrap my head around a creature that basically amounts of Chaos and despair embodied (ugh, DMC2 memories, go away), fueled by the darkness in the hearts of mankind (something that never truly disappears) would just...go to sleep.
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Hell being a vacation for him doesn't make sense because it eliminates his motivation for wanting to stay in the world of the living. And I think the hibernation idea works, but it's just boring.
I still like the idea of Hell being a torturous place for Dracula. I like the idea of him wanting to avoid being sent back there at all costs. I also like the idea of Dracula having to fight his way back to the world of the living. I think there's so much missed opportunity there for a game or games where you play as Dracula to fight your way back to the natural world.
This doesn't seem to be something that is very elaborated on in Castlevania. That's another reason why I think there is so much potential there.
Am I the only one who thinks this is a missed opportunity for CV games where you play as Dracula?
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If you think about it, Aria was pretty much exactly that, Montoya, only a little more metaphorical given that you're an avatar of Dracula.
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This is a really good question. I would say he probably just enters a deep sleep. He's already undead and Death is his servant. I think when death is beaten, he's not necessarily sent to Hell, as much as he is dismissed to being powerless in this world for a certain number of years against his enemies, like the Belmonts and can't really attack and try to end ones life before fate unless their time is up on earth. Dracula though just probably retreats to a deep hibernation as a way of building his strength and the whole being killed and resurrection thing could just be a distraction to the Belmonts. (and other foes of Dracula)
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He plays banjo in his coffin ;D. Seriously I have no idea. Maybe he travels inside Chaos, or Hell, waiting for the time to come back. Then he meets old Death and they start planning Dracy's ressurection.
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He reads his suscribtion to Vogue so when ressurfacing he appears with the lastest haircut and fashion outfits of the season.
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No, he reads and re-reads "THE COMPLETE IDIOTS GUIDE TO BEING AN EVIL VAMPIRE LORD" and "BEING AN EVIL VAMPIRE LORD FOR DUMMIES". And, that's why he always loses. Those books were written by idiots.
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Yeah I always thought he went and hung out in Hell for a little while till he could come back to the physical world.
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He will go to purgatory with Light Yagami, and probably takes Carmilla with him.
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He reads his suscribtion to Vogue so when ressurfacing he appears with the lastest haircut and fashion outfits of the season.
No, he reads and re-reads "THE COMPLETE IDIOTS GUIDE TO BEING AN EVIL VAMPIRE LORD" and "BEING AN EVIL VAMPIRE LORD FOR DUMMIES". And, that's why he always loses. Those books were written by idiots.
He plays banjo in his coffin ;D.
I love you guys, lol.
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He plays banjo in his coffin ;D.
LOL! I wonder if hick Dracula plays this tune;
Earthworm Jim Music SNES - Andy Asteroids (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1baU2coDOg#)