Castlevania Dungeon Forums
The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: KaZudra on March 28, 2014, 10:30:01 AM
-
The Vampire Killer's Origin's on LoI clearly aren't exactly holy...
The VK origininally started as an Alchemy whip, then transformed by the sacrifice of a willing, tainted soul. Over the years (even pre-LoI) the VK has changed shape and element to the wielder's most fit usage, while this is most likely just game logic of upgrades, I'd say could the Vampire Killer be a creature of chaos like Castlevania?
What we know,
- It is the bane of all creatures of the night
- It's origins are very similar to Dracula involving alchemy and tragic lovers
- It has killed John Morris to use it's full potential
- It's transformed from leather to chain, pure holy light, a sword, shoots fireballs, becomes fire enchanted, and much more over time
- It "remembers" the last Belmont who wielded it
- Julius hid this powerful thing in the Castle itself, in a solar eclipse, AND along with it the memories of 1999 itself all in effort to kill Dracula for good but why go through so much trouble?
My theory is this, Vampire Killer is a creature of chaos, but designed to destroy other creatures of chaos. The favoritism of the Belmont clan is most likely Sara's love for Leon and his children, changes properties to become more efficient to the wielder to become the best weapon for the job, every job.
Thoughts, anyone?
-
It has killed John Morris to use it's full potential
It didn't kill John Morris because he used it to its full potential but because he used it too much. Jonathan was able to wield in PoR after the Lecarde sisters 'unlocked' it without draining his life because he only used it at the very end, and presumably dropped it after that.
It's transformed from leather to chain, pure holy light, a sword, shoots fireballs, becomes fire enchanted, and much more over time
The art just handwaves the whole 'leather to chain' bit by always having it appear as a leather whip. I mean even in DXC and PoR where it's always a chain whip, the art (and opening video in PoR) show it as a leather whip. I think Rondo was the only one where it's always depicted as a chain. I'm surprised nobody ever asked IGA why the whip 'evolves' in the games lore-wise.
But the concept that it's a creature of chaos unto itself is an interesting thought. Fight fire with fire, as they say.
-
Post-SotN game always refer to it as the "Holy Whip" though, don't they?
-
I think all the different upgrades to the whip of alchemy in LoI were to explain it's ability to shift forms, and some of the more extreme forms like we saw in CotM aren't really canon to the same timeline. Though they could probably be just as easily explained away as the whip growing and changing in power over time.
Also the reason that it was harmful to John Morris and Jonathan as I understand is that they're not full Belmonts. Perhaps Sara's soul protects Leon's direct descendants from the ill effects of the whip (brought on largely by her own vampiric taint?) but at a certain point Leon's bloodline is too thin for this to work really effectively. I expect this is something that would have been explored more fully if we had gotten a proper Julius Belmont game.
-
Two words: Poltergeist King!
(http://i.gyazo.com/f5beeb2c353f7abae6e16f54b16fa836.png)
-
Creature of Chaos? No. But it is a whip that is dark in its origin, and like somethings (and people) with that come from darkness, it isn't necessarily evil. Just look of Alucard. He is dark in nature, but not evil. As for the whip being holy, I have to say that it is a vampiric weapon that is effective against vampires and all related to them. Sort of like fighting fire with fire. Its vampiric nature also accounts for draining the life from all non-Belmonts who wield its full power. And, as some of you know, my position is that after the ritual that completed the VK, Leon became part vampire and all of his descendants are as well. Thus, making them immune to the side effects. It's also why the Belmonts can't swim and why they are the strongest vampire hunters. Again, fighting fire with fire. And, before you say "but they use holy power", I'll say this: anyone can wield holy power with the right items. Hell, in SotN, Alucard can wield holy weapons and he's half-vampire.
-
Two words: Poltergeist King!
(http://i.gyazo.com/f5beeb2c353f7abae6e16f54b16fa836.png)
So Rinaldo was the Poltergeist King?
GirlChan in Paradise - That Explains Everything! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBJZwYpHUBo#)
Creature of Chaos? No. But it is a whip that is dark in its origin, and like somethings (and people) with that come from darkness, it isn't necessarily evil. Just look of Alucard. He is dark in nature, but not evil. As for the whip being holy, I have to say that it is a vampiric weapon that is effective against vampires and all related to them. Sort of like fighting fire with fire. Its vampiric nature also accounts for draining the life from all non-Belmonts who wield its full power. And, as some of you know, my position is that after the ritual that completed the VK, Leon became part vampire and all of his descendants are as well. Thus, making them immune to the side effects. It's also why the Belmonts can't swim and why they are the strongest vampire hunters. Again, fighting fire with fire. And, before you say "but they use holy power", I'll say this: anyone can wield holy power with the right items. Hell, in SotN, Alucard can wield holy weapons and he's half-vampire.
Interesting theory, it would account for their apparent immunity to lycanthropy and other supernatural afflictions that would stop most mortals.
-
I would love a 3-D CV with exactly that: a fully upgradable/customizable Vampire Killer with different forms letting you adapt to different combat situations.
Post-SotN game always refer to it as the "Holy Whip" though, don't they?
I forgot who said that, Vincent Dorin or Barlowe maybe, but this can be chalked up to them not being aware of the VK's origins and so assuming it was some kind of holy weapon.
-
it is a holy weapon tho
Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia [Intro] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5R4vpa9yHs4#)
-
I always viewed the vampire killer (sacred whip) as a weapon of holy origin. However, it's easy to see that there are conflicting messages.
-
Creature of Chaos? No. But it is a whip that is dark in its origin, and like somethings (and people) with that come from darkness, it isn't necessarily evil. Just look of Alucard. He is dark in nature, but not evil. As for the whip being holy, I have to say that it is a vampiric weapon that is effective against vampires and all related to them. Sort of like fighting fire with fire. Its vampiric nature also accounts for draining the life from all non-Belmonts who wield its full power. And, as some of you know, my position is that after the ritual that completed the VK, Leon became part vampire and all of his descendants are as well. Thus, making them immune to the side effects. It's also why the Belmonts can't swim and why they are the strongest vampire hunters. Again, fighting fire with fire. And, before you say "but they use holy power", I'll say this: anyone can wield holy power with the right items. Hell, in SotN, Alucard can wield holy weapons and he's half-vampire.
The whole point of legends not being canon is because the Belmont bloodline is not part vampiric. The whip required a tainted soul which trusted Leon to become the VK, if Leon was tainted the process would not have worked. Rinaldo told Leon something on the lines that his bloodline was special and the whip took to Leon more than himself.
Secondly, vampirism can be cured through magic, one example - POR; Sanctuary which cures Vincent, and the Twins.
Julius Belmont can swim btw
-
Julius Belmont can swim btw
Cuz he is that awesome. hehehe.
I still consider the Vampire Killer as holy.
-
Well, Pre-LoI the Vampire Killer is a holy Relic. Now post-LoI The whip is still Holy, but it is a creature of chaos.
Plus Dark and Holy don't dictate good or Evil, Tons of Churches today use Holy for their own Dark intentions
-
Tons of Churches today use Holy for their own Dark intentions
This was very well said. This is far worse than just being open about it.
-
This was very well said. This is far worse than just being open about it.
This takes me back to playing Alundra. Underneath the church floor was a statue of Melzas (the Demon King) good times.... :p
-
This takes me back to playing Alundra. Underneath the church floor was a statue of Melzas (the Demon King) good times.... :p
I had never played this one before so you forced me to google it. Developed by matrix software? Interesting ;) I also took the time to read the storyline. That is also, VERY interesting. Guy on the cover looks like a cross between Simon Belmont from captain n and Link from the legend of Zelda, lol.
For some reason this thread reminded me of the difference between Castlevania and haunted Castle. In the games intro the first thing Dracula does is blow up the cross on top of the church. The final boss fight is against Dracula, but he shows up as an angel before he shows who he really is.. Also worth mentioning.. The cross sub-weapon in this game is really a cross. As for the main weapon? Sword, whip, chain flail with a spiked mace ball on the end. No mention of a vampire killer that i can see. But the theme clearly depicts the struggle between good and evil. This can be easily seen with the discovery of holy symbols in the hands of the hero and the angel Satan who reveals himself as Dracula. I have seen emulated versions that did away with this and just introduce Dracula.
Also worth mentioning is how screwed up the Wikipedia entry is for this game. It introduces haunted Castle, but quickly directs you to the story and development of Castlevania nes. Very strange.
-
Unless you're referring to a version of Haunted Castle I've never seen, Dracula doesn't appear as an angel. It's one of the Harpies from stage 3:
(http://i.gyazo.com/6dce4bd62f375b3cedac2769fba8e3ec.png)
-
Unless you're referring to a version of Haunted Castle I've never seen, Dracula doesn't appear as an angel. It's one of the Harpies from stage 3:
(http://i.gyazo.com/6dce4bd62f375b3cedac2769fba8e3ec.png)
From a technical point of view, you are correct. However im afraid that there is some symbolism here that may be lost on you. The use of a man with long hair and wings was not an accident. The entire classical story of Dracula is centered around a very religious man that fought in gods name and was in very high standing. (Just like another figure) That man turned on god and vowed to forever curse his name and rebel against him by defying death itself. Among other activities.. Sounds like the story of somebody else, does it not?
(http://i59.tinypic.com/9pz31j.jpg)Thats satan, not a harpie ;D I guess next you will say that's not the symbol of Wicca. Triquetra
-
If Konami wanted to imply such a theme, they could have simply created an angelic sprite distinct from the Harpy. CV draws heavily on ancient vampire folklore, and that Harpy is the classic image of a vampiric entity. It is not a male with long hair, it is a female vampiric spirit with wings and the feet of a bird. That image is far older than any biblical conception of what the Devil looked like, regardless of the fact that ancient ideas of what evil spirits looked like were eventually absorbed into Christianity as it spread through Europe.
-
Your missing the point. Let me start with all the ways your correct.
Yes, the harpie is an ancient mythical creature. Yes, it's a female monster. Yes, it's older than Christianity. And yes, Christianity did absorb massive amounts of pagan dates, symbolism, etc and so on. Even the symbol of the sun was adopted into the religion even though it represents pagan sun worship.
Here are the things i think your overlooking.
The original OLD versions of Castlevania were based on the classic story of Dracula. The story of Dracula is ALL ABOUT Christianity and the battle between satan and God. Watch Bram stokers Dracula dude. Why would they make a new sprite to represent an angel, when what they are trying to depict is already so similar to what they wanted? Answer: They wouldn't. They just figured people would know the story of Dracula after like 100 years of books and movies and understand the concept. This is the kind of thing they did in almost all games back in those days. The reuse of sprites where they could was very common.
Here is your question pointed back at you. If they were going to pick a random monster to use to represent Dracula as he enters the boss fight, why would they not have picked a bat? Answer: Because the symbolism they were going for was a lot stronger than that.
-
You both make valid points imo. What I will say is that I don't believe anything is accidental in this world. Inevitably symbols themselves will mean different things for different people.
Imo, the harpy was picked because they wanted a creature that could fly so the gamer wouldn't know they were fighting Dracula until he materialised. However, In context a bat would be more appropriate..
This is where I believe Morning star has a valid point, because I've played Haunted Castle, at the start of the game Dracula kidnaps the protagonist's bride. Hence, there's no element of surprise anymore, the gamer already knows who they're going to fight. If anything this just informs me that the creators did their research, I don't believe the harpy was chosen by chance. I'd be more inclined to believe they reused the harpy sprite (in this scenario) because they were too cheap to create another sprite. (Lucifer is said to have been beautiful, androgynous even. So maybe boobs aren't going that astray) It's the same reason why in the original SFII, both Ryu and Ken's sprites are in essence the same, everything is about cost.
Morning Star, speaking of context one thing I will say is when it come to Bram Stoker's Dracula, never watch the film, always read the book. The film is more a love story, and although good for its time I don't believe personally that it's a great adaptation of the classic.
-
I'm not implying that the original story of Dracula, as written by Bram Stoker, was not about good vs. evil, devil vs. god. It certainly was. I was just saying that's not an angel in that game, but you can read it that way if you want. Also, the 1992 movie "Bram Stoker's Dracula" may have been pretty close to the book, but, the 1992 movie invented its own explanation of why Dracula turned into a vampire, and has been copied since. The whole, deeply religious man, but fallen, then curses God thing. The novel never explains how or why he became a vampire. The thing is, Haunted Castle came out before the 1992 film. You're trying to read a message about Dracula that was invented in 1992 back into a video game made in the late 1980s, as if the makers had somehow seen that film.
-
Quit derailing the topic guys. If you want to swap conspiracy theories make your own thread, don't hijack others.
-
Alright, fair enough. The topic did get derailed. But I wasn't promoting secret meanings or conspiracy theories. I was trying to say the opposite, that it's a game based on horror motifs, and not to read too deep into it.
-
Alright, fair enough. The topic did get derailed. But I wasn't promoting secret meanings or conspiracy theories. I was trying to say the opposite, that it's a game based on horror motifs, and not to read too deep into it.
Yeah just don't want to have to lock another topic for serious derailment like last time. I will clarify one of your points though just because I really like quoting this one passage in Dracula about his origin.
The novel never explains how or why he became a vampire. The thing is, Haunted Castle came out before the 1992 film. You're trying to read a message about Dracula that was invented in 1992 back into a video game made in the late 1980s, as if the makers had somehow seen that film.
It doesn't explain but it does hint.
"I have asked my friend Arminius, of Buda-Pesth University, to make his record; and, from all the means that are, he tell me of what he has been. He must, indeed, have been that Voivode Dracula who won his name against the Turk, over the great river on the very frontier of Turkey-land. If it be so, then was he no common man; for in that time, and for centuries after, he was spoken of as the cleverest and the most cunning, as well as the bravest of the sons of the ‘land beyond the forest.’ That mighty brain and that iron resolution went with him to his grave, and are even now arrayed against us. The Draculas were, says Arminius, a great and noble race, though now and again were scions who were held by their coevals to have had dealings with the Evil One. They learned his secrets in the Scholomance, amongst the mountains over Lake Hermanstadt, where the devil claims the tenth scholar as his due. In the records are such words as ‘stregoica’—witch, ‘ordog,’ and ‘pokol’—Satan and hell; and in one manuscript this very Dracula is spoken of as ‘wampyr,’ which we all understand too well. There have been from the loins of this very one great men and good women, and their graves make sacred the earth where alone this foulness can dwell. For it is not the least of its terrors that this evil thing is rooted deep in all good; in soil barren of holy memories it cannot rest.” ( http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/345 (http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/345) )
Dracula apparently became a vampire by studying at the Scholomance, either voluntarily or because he wound up being a 10th student and thus claimed by the devil.
-
I had forgotten about the explicit mention of Drac being into Black Magic in the novel. And in medieval times, that sure was a practice that made you a likely candidate for a vampire. Looking at it like that, that hint in the novel could have very well been an inspiration for the reason Drac is a vampire found in "Legends" and "Dracula's Curse."
-
I think all the different upgrades to the whip of alchemy in LoI were to explain it's ability to shift forms, and some of the more extreme forms like we saw in CotM aren't really canon to the same timeline. Though they could probably be just as easily explained away as the whip growing and changing in power over time.
Also the reason that it was harmful to John Morris and Jonathan as I understand is that they're not full Belmonts. Perhaps Sara's soul protects Leon's direct descendants from the ill effects of the whip (brought on largely by her own vampiric taint?) but at a certain point Leon's bloodline is too thin for this to work really effectively. I expect this is something that would have been explored more fully if we had gotten a proper Julius Belmont game.
If you think about it, just the Alchemy Whip upgrades into the Vampire Killer, the elemental Whips are more like different whips you find during your quest.
-
If you think about it, just the Alchemy Whip upgrades into the Vampire Killer, the elemental Whips are more like different whips you find during your quest.
Oh yeah that's true (I really need to replay LoI, I've only beaten it once but it's a lot of fun once you're past the House of Sacred Remains) but I wonder if that was due to a quirk of translation or a last minute change in development? It seems like a logical combining of game mechanics with lore building to have the whip infused with ice power from an ice elemental etc.
-
If I remember correctly, if you read the descriptions of the three elemental whips in LoI, they say: "fire/ice/lightning element added to the Whip of Alchemy." So, the there is really only one whip in LoI. It's just that the whip is equipped with the three elementals and that the VK is just an upgrade of the basic Whip of Alchemy.
-
That's the way i remember it as well.