Castlevania Dungeon Forums
The Castlevania Dungeon Forums => General Castlevania Discussion => Topic started by: AlexCalvo on April 18, 2016, 02:38:28 PM
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Mistranslation is kind of a given for any series that started out in the NES days or earlier. Castlevania has it's fair share, the two most glaring for me are Orlock being mangled into Olrox, and Cthulhu being accidentally swapped with Malachi, and this sticking for the rest of is appearances.
Less offensive examples include Carrie being a Fernandes rather than a Belnades, and the Lecarde family not being the Ricardo family. Where you guys stand on these and other mistranslations? What do you consider to be the "correct" version, and most importantly, Orlock or Olrox?
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Even though I dislike them (not so much, but I do), I'll not change how I call the characters because this became established in a time where we had no way to know if these were mistranslations. Word spread and the characters became known as they are, mistranslation and all.
However I'll not chastise those who decide to go for the japanese originals.
PS: I can't see Trevor as Ralph. It's too much for my feeble mind.
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I used to care a lot more when I had more free time to look into this stuff, now I can take it or leave it. It seems inevitable and a bit of a shame that translators are given poetic license so much that they can change things like that.
The amount of times I've argued something to find out from others that the original English source material was wrong used to really piss me off, these days I just think that the English versions of games pretty much have to exist within their own canon of mistranslation, or going easier let's call it "The lore explained in a different way".
Orlock makes more sense, Olrox sounds cooler.
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Indeed, Orlox does sound cooler...
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Bloody Scholar engaging SCHOLARLY MODE
Trevor is a Welsh name that derives from "trefmawr" which means "Big Village". With so many Germanic and Slavic names in the Castlevania canon, the presence of a Welsh name seems rather out of place. However, his name in the Japanese script, Ralph, is more appropriate. Ralph derives from the Nordic "Ráðúlfr" and its later Norman simplification, Radulf. Ráðúlfr means "The Wolf's Counsel". Fittingly, Trevor's incarnation in Lords of Shadow is associated with wolves and later serves as a counselor to Gabriel, befitting his original name.
Ralph/Trevor Belmont has a bit of a naming conundrum in that depending on the translation, his name is entirely different.
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So, I tend to side with the Japanese and refer to him as Ralph as (given his point in history) being given a Welsh name just doesn't make historical sense to me, whereas a name of Norse/Norman derivation makes more sense for a character descended from a French family (http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php/topic,8504.msg188477.html#msg188477) (the Normans being the French descendants of Viking conquerors under the command of the warrior-king Rollo, the best-known ancestor of William the Conqueror, probably the most famous Norman of all time.
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That being said, I always thought "Ralph" sounded silly when spoken out loud, and so in casual conversation, I usually use "Trevor" -- it sounds cooler, and American fans generally understand who I am referring to more quickly.
Fernandes/z is also linguisitically appropriate, being a common surname in the former Gaulic countries (Spain/France/Portugal), but the Belnades family hails from the wrong part of the world (being principally Slavic). The name is most likely meant to be "Vernandes" which is a real surname that can be found across Europe in a much wider range and is more Slavic-appropriate. The sticker came when both names are rendered in Japanese as (roughly) "Verunandesu" from which the translators somehow got "Belnades". It's far from the most glaring goof of the series though -- "Belnades" at least sounds somewhat regionally appropriate to the Wallachian setting of the early Castlevania games.
As the Wiki points out, The sound of "B" is similar to "V", while in some languages like German, "V" is pronounced as "F".
Likewise, "S" is pronounced as "Z" in some languages, such as German.
The sounds of "-el" and "-er" are usually translated into "-エル" (-eru) in Japanese.
It's also worth noting the original American release of Castlevania 3 got Sypha's name as "Syfa Velnumdes", which is even more off the mark than "Belnades".
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/a7/87/30/a7873008b844d1413f731e808b47abfc.jpg)
The historian in me is compelled to point out though that in a way, Fernandez and Vernandes/Belnades can both be canon if said individual has Belnades ancestry due to a Belnades marriage with a family named Fernandez. Due to patronymics and other good stuff, said person would likely be known as "Fernandez" after that.
Or, more simply: all Fernandez's in the story are Belnades', but not all Belnades' must be Fernandez's. Zzzssszz. ;)
EDIT SO THIS IS MORE ON TOPIC
I generally go for whichever version is more accurate to history and narrative intent. Orlock instead of Olrox, Cthulhu instead of Malachi, Ralph instead of Trevor, etc.
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I'm not sure how the translators got Cthulhu and Malachi mixed up... The character sprites say it all. It's as though they've never even heard of H.P. Lovecraft's work before. I also prefer Orlock over Olrox. That way we have another classic horror figure brought into Castlevania. At least Carmilla was able to keep her name proper. That's of course excluding the name she was given in CotM; Camilla instead of Carmilla.
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I'm not sure how the translators got Cthulhu and Malachi mixed up... The character sprites say it all.
You want to know the worst translation I've ever heard?
The Russian version of Devil May Cry 4 calls Dante's weapon/ armour Gilgamesh (the first king of Mesopotamia) "Butcher".... >:(
How the fuck do you extrapolate Butcher from King/ Gilgamesh???
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I don't care much about those mistranslations since I know first hand how difficult it is to translate things from one language to another that has absolutely no linguistic relationship to each other. Plus given the fact that Konami just employs one person to do all the work (remember OoE), you cannot expect that person be familiar with everything in the lore. Be kind and appreciate the effort, people. Better have a mistranslation than none at all.
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It depends on the context.
For example if I were making Castlevania III-2 as a fan made sequel game I would stick with the established names that are most commonly used; Belnades, DeNasty, etc...
But, if I were going to do a fan remake where the point is to make a better version of the original I would then go for accuracy; Fernandez, Danesti, etc...
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Be kind and appreciate the effort, people. Better have a mistranslation than none at all.
Well, as long as it's a minor and understandable one (or a well-thought out localization choice in certain cases) rather than something pulled entirely out the translator's ass.
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rather than something pulled entirely out the translator's ass.
It's awfully spoony when they do that...
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It's awfully spoony when they do that...
"You spoony bard" is actually 100% correct English.
Middle English, to be exact.
"Spoony" means "sentimentally or foolishly amorous", which given the context of the quote is absolutely dead on.
It only sounds silly because it's not a common expression today.
Your personal use of it just now, well, that's a misuse, not a mistranslation.
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Well, he was Orlok, but he pursued a hip-hop career, by stage 2 he went and changed his name to Orlox got a few youtube views and so impressed with his lyrical genius he did some crack songs under the name Olrox (Ol' Rocks) his soundcloud got 50 views, as you encounter him in SoTN, a voice clip can be heard "bruh, check out my mixtape", then Alucard gave him his "cure".
I really need to stop watching filthy frank
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I consider names being mistranslated but still sticking around because of tradition to be the least problematic when it comes to localization. It's very easy to switch between the localized names and the orginal ones, at least for me. On on the other hand, when mistranslation causes certain information to be left out or is misinterpreted, it can be a bit annoying. Especially because of the effects it can have on theorizing, and it usually takes some time for these mistakes to be discovered. If a particular fanbase is lucky enough to have people who can point out these mistakes, that is. But of course it's completely unreasonable to expect a translation without such errors, because whoever does it probably never catches all of the references, and isn't as invested in it as fans like us because it's just their job. However, overall I think the translations of Castlevania games get it right for the most part, though if you want the best understanding of the story and the lore, it's best to stick to the original versions.
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"You spoony bard" is actually 100% correct English.
Middle English, to be exact.
"Spoony" means "sentimentally or foolishly amorous", which given the context of the quote is absolutely dead on.
It only sounds silly because it's not a common expression today.
Your personal use of it just now, well, that's a misuse, not a mistranslation.
Woolsey actually was known to take quite a few creative liberties with his translations, and not just because of the Nintendo policies of the day.
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Woolsey actually was known to take quite a few creative liberties with his translations, and not just because of the Nintendo policies of the day.
...Except IV wasn't translated by Woolsey.
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I find that there's no excuse to mistranslate things nowadays. Unlike the 80s and early 90s we now have international access via internet. If we want something translated we can utilize a program or contact someone who can translate information on the fly. If a game company is mistranslating something now? They're probably being lazy or they wanted to do their own thing. Oh yes, FFIV was the worst mistranslated product I've ever played. Though I'll admit it was and still is my favorite FF game.
How the fuck do you extrapolate Butcher from King/ Gilgamesh???
LOL! How the f#$k indeed :o
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I'd say the original PSX version of Final Fantasy Tactics is far far worse than FF4.
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The question we should be asking right now is: "how did this thread go from a Castlevania related thread to a Final Fantasy one?"
But as long as we're bringing up Good King Theodore Woolsey, I'd be remiss as the duly appointed representative of TVTropes (that's a lie) and raging fanboy of same (that is not a lie) to not bring up their page on Woolseyisms, (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Woolseyism) from which I bring this excerpt that is relevant to the thread overall.
He frequently modified the scripts he was handed in order to render them more accessible for American release. Fans coined the term "Woolseyisms" to refer to places where Woolsey had obviously been tinkering with the original Japanese script. In a 2007 interview (http://www.playeronepodcast.com/2007/02/15/transcript-of-ted-woolsey-interview/), Woolsey revealed that the original drafts of his translation had to be cut by over 25% just to fit on the SNES cartridge for testing (due to the fact that Japanese is a more compact language than English), which accounts for the amount of cut or abridged material in his version.
Here's the thing. Woolsey's changes? They actually worked. Some of the lines were so well integrated into the collective consciousness of the game that they have been embraced by the fandom instead of reviled. Though a good number of the script changes were probably unnecessary, many fans have come to the agreement that they don't hurt the final product; sometimes they even make it better. The script has diverged from the original — maybe wildly — and yet, it works anyway, just like a good localized translation should.
That's a Woolseyism: The Pragmatic Adaptation's answer to a Cut-and-Paste Translation.
I don't mind script that has been altered to make it more accessible, but I can't think of a time when someone in Castlevania did so. Castlevania's mistranslations have more often been out of sheer laziness than a concerted attempt to bridge a language gap.
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I don't mind script that has been altered to make it more accessible, but I can't think of a time when someone in Castlevania did so. Castlevania's mistranslations have more often been out of sheer laziness than a concerted attempt to bridge a language gap.
One time I can think of - not that I'm defending it - is the epilogue script to LOI after the ending.
The script/voice says that Mathias fled to foreign lands etc renaming himself The Lord of the Vampires and King of the Knight, or something along those lines.
This definitely seemed to be tweaked for western audiences. The Japanese version's translation equated to something quite different. Perhaps that the translation staff felt westerners couldn't fully comprehend.
The same thing happened with Zant in Zelda TP being a master of Yin & Yang, but as there was no direct translation for westerners it was changed from yin & yang to "light & dark".
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One time I can think of - not that I'm defending it - is the epilogue script to LOI after the ending.
The script/voice says that Mathias fled to foreign lands etc renaming himself The Lord of the Vampires and King of the Knight, or something along those lines.
This definitely seemed to be tweaked for western audiences. The Japanese version's translation equated to something quite different. Perhaps that the translation staff felt westerners couldn't fully comprehend.
Well, okay. Yeah. You got me on that one.
I do also say that, like any good woolseyism, it definitely works and doesn't really break anything.
I'd say the most notable mistranslations in the series for me are in Symphony of the Night, which reaches full blown "they weren't even trying" in places, like the pointless Lord of the Rings stuff that plainly doesn't belong anywhere in the franchise. Simon's Quest is probably a silver medalist here, but it's often hard to tell what's actually a mistranslation and what's the game being deliberately abusive to you.
May the Graveyard Duck live ten thousand years.
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Don't get me wrong Scholar not on a hunt to catch you like the graveyard duck :p (#graveyardduckhunt), it's simply one of the few instances off the top of my head that CVD has brought to my attention.
The other would be Shanoa's final spiel to Dracula before their battle saying something like
"I am the Morning Sun/Star that will vanquish this horrible night" to the japanese version's
"I am a sword that cleaves evil". I think both lines are cool, but I do prefer the homage to Simon's Quest in this instance.
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I find if names are mistranslated, the Japanese name is always the correct one. At the same time, I don't mind them unless they really ruin the story or mood of the game.
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One time I can think of - not that I'm defending it - is the epilogue script to LOI after the ending.
The script/voice says that Mathias fled to foreign lands etc renaming himself The Lord of the Vampires and King of the Knight, or something along those lines.
This definitely seemed to be tweaked for western audiences. The Japanese version's translation equated to something quite different. Perhaps that the translation staff felt westerners couldn't fully comprehend.
The same thing happened with Zant in Zelda TP being a master of Yin & Yang, but as there was no direct translation for westerners it was changed from yin & yang to "light & dark".
What did it say at the end of LoI in Japanese?
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What did it say at the end of LoI in Japanese?
It said something to the effect of him becoming the Demon/ Devil. To Japanese audiences it would've made sense due to the title "Akumajo Dracula" meaning Devil Castle Dracula.
I'm sure others recall this thread, Nagumo or Shiroi probably would've played translator.
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Yeah, the ending said in the future he would call himself the Dark Lord and "Devil". IGA has been on record saying Dracula means Devil (although this isn't quite right, of course), so the Japanese epilogue confirms Mathias becomes Dracula, while the English version is more vague about this since they decided to use different terminology.
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while the English version is more vague about this since they decided to use different terminology.
Dare I say they left this more open for the premise that more games would potentially fit in between LOI>CVIII. The timeline and chronology seemed very important to Iga at that time.
Mathias goes into hiding in foreign lands and continues to curse God for eternity. Eventually, he renames himself Lord of the Vampires, King of the Night.
I think the title Lords of the Vampires is fair enough as the former especially was mentioned in the game by Rinaldo when he described what would happen if someone used the Crimson Stone.
King of the Night was probably 'a thing' because of the few references throughout the game to Walter's association with the Ebony Stone and his Castle being engulfed in eternal night, plus Leon stating This whip and my kinsmen will destroy you someday. From this day on, the Belmont clan will hunt the night. Sounds cool to me. ;)
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I prefer Olrox and really only because of Nostalgia. After all, it is the name I've known him as since 1997.
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It said something to the effect of him becoming the Demon/ Devil. To Japanese audiences it would've made sense due to the title "Akumajo Dracula" meaning Devil Castle Dracula.
There's also the cultural differences of what "Devil" means. To one person it's just another term for a monster or demon, to others it's THE Devil.
Of course, there's also the whole part about modern Romanian translating "dracul" as "devil," whereas back in the 1400s it just meant "dragon." So there's plenty of extenuating factors to consider.
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Well, in Japanese Akuma is most normally used to mean THE Christian Devil.
Also, in Christian culture dragons are often used as symbols for the Devil, so that is where that comes from.
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As far as I know, the word "Akuma" does not necessarily mean "the christian Devil" as in "Satan" or "Lucifer", but is more of an umbrella term for "evil spirit", under which Satan belongs too. "Akuma" seems to be non-specific.
Satan has its own name in japanese (サタン). Check this japanese wiki entry. (https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%B5%E3%82%BF%E3%83%B3)
Also, the word used to describe Dracula is "Maou (魔王)" which means "Demon King." When translating the Satan's Ring, for instance, the translator(s) misunderstood this word as referring to THE christian Devil, and not to Dracula. This caused the item to be called "Satan's Ring" instead of "Demon King's/Dark Lord's Ring" -- which caused quite a big misunderstanding of the plot amongst my country's fanbase, because there is no "Satan" in Castlevania. Dracula is the big shot.
By what I have researched, this word is more appropriate to refer to THE Devil of christianity as it is an specific term for the highest "evil being" of a belief system. Here (https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%AD%94%E7%8E%8B) this is mentioned.
But I think only a true japanese speaker/native can elucidade this beyond doubt.
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Well, in Japanese Akuma is most normally used to mean THE Christian Devil.
Uh, no. You'll find instances where it is used to refer to Christian Satan, but it means "demon" or a generalized "devil" far more commonly.
Also, in Christian culture dragons are often used as symbols for the Devil, so that is where that comes from.
Also no. Not even counting things like religious appropriation (i.e. Satan as a name deriving from the Islamic Iblis (known also as Shaitan), many Satan characteristics being similar to Ahriman, the horns-and-hooves appearances deriving from Baphomet, etc.), Satan being represented as a dragon is more symbolic on account of dragon=serpent=deceiver=human ego=sin, as well as dragons being representative in so many Western cultures as beings of immense power and cunning that only the most resolute of people may triumph over them (here meaning to abstain from sin as the religion calls for).
There's about a thousand and one reasons why Satan has representations as a dragon, and naming conventions within a video game series is not one of them.
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@plottwist When Akuma is translated to English, the translation obviously being "devil", I always interpreted it more like "A devil" i.e. an entity and not "THE Devil" i.e. Satan. There are numerous devils but only one Satan. The term devil just bares heavy overly heavy association in the Western world due to Christianity.
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I'm not entirely sure Olrox is a mistranslation. It could very well be that the translators looked and the name and thought rather than using the Orlock name, they'd take the guy and make him into his own character and using him more as a tribute than a direct reference.
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Mistranslate means translate incorrectly.
Out of context it does not necessarily tell us whether the incorrect translation is by mistake or by intention.
オルロック Orurokku (Orlok) is the original name in Japan.
You could argue that the ru and ro getting reversed might be a mistake, but the kku being ox is highly doubtful if the translator knew what they were doing.
The original would have to be Orurokkusu in order for it to hold water as purely a mistake.
So while it is definitely a mistranslation it is very likely to be at least partially intentional as they are adding sounds that did not exist in the original.
It is just as likely that they could have used Orlox, but they may have been indeed trying to make it reminiscent yet as different as possible from Orlock.
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I would call that a mistranlation, because the original intention in Japanese was clearly that he was Orlock, and given his initial look and the pastiche horror nature of Castlevania, it's just a certainty. I don't think a mistranslation necessarily needs to be a mistake... maybe there is a better word for what I am talking about?
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I like old rocks
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I would call that a mistranlation, because the original intention in Japanese was clearly that he was Orlock, and given his initial look and the pastiche horror nature of Castlevania, it's just a certainty. I don't think a mistranslation necessarily needs to be a mistake... maybe there is a better word for what I am talking about?
It's a mistranslation. "オルロック" is Orlock. You can check this on the japanese entry for Nosferatu on Wikipedia.
What chainsawmidget meant is that the translator got creative with the names as to create an identity for the characters instead of referencing things all the time. As in "he knew what the word meant, and changed it anyway."
The problem with this logic is that Blaustein IS fond of referencing literature -- as seen with his many references to Tolkien (some present in japanese, some not) and his localization of the creature "Evil" to "Cthulhu" due to the creature obviously looking like Cthulhu. Unfortunatelly this got mismatched, but we know where his intentions were.
"Olrox" IS most likely a mistranslation than an "attempt to give the character more personality" because Blaustein has confirmed to not being as skilled in japanese then than he is now. He was probably not aware that the character was meant to be Orlock, too, because he has told me he didn't have access to all of the character graphics and just had a brief description of them to work upon sometimes. Could also have been the case of Olrox.
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As far as I know, the word "Akuma" does not necessarily mean "the christian Devil" as in "Satan" or "Lucifer", but is more of an umbrella term for "evil spirit", under which Satan belongs too. "Akuma" seems to be non-specific.
Satan has its own name in japanese (サタン). Check this japanese wiki entry. (https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%B5%E3%82%BF%E3%83%B3)
Also, the word used to describe Dracula is "Maou (魔王)" which means "Demon King." When translating the Satan's Ring, for instance, the translator(s) misunderstood this word as referring to THE christian Devil, and not to Dracula. This caused the item to be called "Satan's Ring" instead of "Demon King's/Dark Lord's Ring" -- which caused quite a big misunderstanding of the plot amongst my country's fanbase, because there is no "Satan" in Castlevania. Dracula is the big shot.
By what I have researched, this word is more appropriate to refer to THE Devil of christianity as it is an specific term for the highest "evil being" of a belief system. Here (https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%AD%94%E7%8E%8B) this is mentioned.
But I think only a true japanese speaker/native can elucidade this beyond doubt.
For what it's worth, Japanese speakers and amateur translators on ROMHacking.net that I have talked to have told me that akuma is most commonly used to refer to THE Christian Devil. That said, it is not used exclusively in this way. That's why my preference is to translate "Akuma-jou Dracula" as "DEMON Castle Dracula". That and I have a distaste for the word devil in general. I blame my Christian upbringing for that as I don't even identify as Christian any more myself.
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I would still say it's not worth much--that would mean Street Fighter characters have been fighting the actual Satan all this time.
I've seen it as the exception far more than I have the rule.
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I would still say it's not worth much--that would mean Street Fighter characters have been fighting the actual Satan all this time.
Oh God.. (no pun intended) Akuma is not Satan.
Gill parting the sea and resurrecting is more than enough.
I wonder though, will Akuma's presence in Tekken 7's story play a part to do with Kazuya's Devil Gene...
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I would still say it's not worth much--that would mean Street Fighter characters have been fighting the actual Satan all this time.
I've seen it as the exception far more than I have the rule.
Wait, what?
Akuma is not even the character's real name.
His name is Gouki in Japan so it has absolutely no bearing on how Japanese speakers use the word.
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Yeah, it's called me poking fun at the ridiculousness of "yeah a few Japanese speakers told me this, it's gotta be right."
It literally means "devil" but the word "devil" is not automatically synonymous with the Christian devil.
Period.
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I wonder though, will Akuma's presence in Tekken 7's story play a part to do with Kazuya's Devil Gene...
Oh yeah, he's in the game. I almost forgot.
The moment Akuma was revealed, Tekken 7 went from a "maybe" to a "okay gonna have to get this somehow." Mainly since I'm curious as to how Akuma plays in Tekken.
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Wait, what?
Akuma is not even the character's real name.
His name is Gouki in Japan so it has absolutely no bearing on how Japanese speakers use the word.
Exactly right, he's Gouki brother of Gouken, disciple of Gotetsu.
Akuma was more appealing to the western audience.
@Textguy there's gameplay footage. He looks really interesting to play.