Topic: Why does IGA keep writing checks he never cashes?

[Giz]

I wasn't referring specifically to console but rather a large combination of factors; it being 2D handheld IS a factor but it hardly outright denies the possibility alone; being metroidvania, 2D with a limited budget, and having more emphasis on gameplay (among many other factors I will not get into) given all the other factors inherently means that there is going to be less focus on story, its progression and the means by which it progresses. All of the factors combined result in the product, not just one.

It'd be great if you could speak articulately and rationally for once, as opposed to throwing off your ludicrious and irrelevant insults.

[Giz]

I referred to you as such after the fact. Comparitively speaking, i was being rather eloquent.

[Giz]

Hardly. More often then not i'm not nearly as condescending as you'd like to think; simply that my diction may appear to be by some.

In this instance, it was more a reaction to your own attitude. But regardless - this is petty. Shall we move on already?

[GrantDaMummy]

I don't really want to get into the canon debate. I think its rather silly, personally. IGA doesn't really use the term either, other than he has or at least according to those translating him said that Legends is "non-canon" specifically (maybe?). He has said that that CotM and n64 games were "always side projects" according to their producers. Of course "side projects" doesn't really specify what level of canonacity or non-canonacity that they had before IGA took over is unclear. "side project" as a term doesn't really relate to canon terminology directly.

Side stories as a rule may not be important to main events (in this case the Belmont/Dracula struggle) but might occur in the same universe. Most of the interviews where IGA denounced the n64 games occured almost a half to a decade ago anyways back when he was making his 3-d games and believed they were better than the n64 titles. He later went on to apologize for his 3-d games failing to live up to the standards that Castlevania (they apparently were failures marketing wise as well). His most recent 3-d game Judgment was probably the biggest failure. Apparently it sold little under 4000 units in Japan.[http://gonintendo.com/viewstory.php?id=70182] With that track record is Konami even willing to allow him to continue to make 3-d games? Has his next gen game been cancelled? Does it even live up to the standards that LoS will probably set? It seems with his track record they weren't willing to give him the budget, that Kojima and the western team are receiving. From a marketing standpoint I can see where Konami is going with this, Kojima has been largely successful in all his endeavors where IGA has not.

What about Judgment? IGA acknowledged the n64 games by the very inclusion of Cornell and his backstory in the game, his story even leads directly into the events of LoD. Several other characters even bring in details of the backstory from LoD such as Death. This would seem to imply that IGA's opinions of the series has changed a bit since he first made his previous comments nearly a decade ago.

Its debateable if Carmilla in the game is based somewhat in part off the CotM Carmilla as well (the only previous castlevania game to ever really give her any backstory). She does share some similarities in appearance at least the shared used of pinks and reds in costume colors. Granted OoE seems to eliminate CotM as a whole with its backstory, or at least fitting it in is problematic.

Granted no one really asked him any "canon" or specific timeline related questions recently so we really don't know what's on his mind at this point. I think one of the more recent timeline questions around the time of Dracula X Chronicles he more or less admitted his disgust in having to follow any set timeline, and that it was beginning to restrict his story telling possibilities.

http://blog.wired.com/games/2007/10/interview-iga-t.html

I've wanted to ask this for a while: what do you think, in the whole history of Castlevania, was the worst decision anybody ever made about the series?
Iga: Probably when we put out the timeline. Because since Dracula only appears every 100 years, we made the whole timeline and ran out of places to put in another game. I made the timeline, but I shouldn't have actually released it, because now it's all official. That was a bad decision.

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=16730

How tied are you to the 100 years between episodes? Do you think you could do a Castlevania without Dracula?

KI: The 100-year rule is... I started as a producer on Symphony of the Night, so it's not a rule I created. It was something that was already there. I know there's a rule there, and I can't really break it, but I kind of deviated a little bit.

If you look at this new Castlevania, Dracula X, it's two games within seven years of each other. I do it that way. There are rules, even though he revives every 100 years. There's some half-revival things that happen.

Secondly canon debates tend to be silly in as much that they tend to rely on aging (possibly outdated) interviews that may have lost something during the translation into english. Languages do not always translate from one language to another accurately. Third, the debates are often based on one's interpretation of the translated interview vs. someone else's interpretation. That is people use their own interpretations of the quotes, and not necessarily IGA's own intent. That is they may be putting words into IGA's mouth that he never specifically said. The case in point that something IGA says may be interpreted as having something to do with canonacity when he never actually used the term canon in his quotes. So basically it comes down to people spouting their own opinions back and forth without anyone knowing what's really on IGA's mind.

Finally those hoping that IGA would specifically going about writing the 1999 story or any specific story mentioned in the games, it seems unlikely. It seems that isn't how he goes about creating the stories. He creates the gameplay system, and then figures out what kind of story will fit on top of it.

http://www.gamesradar.com/psp/f/castlevania-the-mega-interview/a-20070312121437520086/g-2007020210261331098/p-5

Quote
GR: Kind of changing gears a little bit. Obviously the back story of the two Sorrow games is the Dracula War of 1999. Can you tell us when we might find out more about that story, and Julius?

KI: You want more details of the War in 1999?


GR: That story sounds very exciting - the final battle against Dracula. I was wondering when in general, we might find out more...

KI: Did you know that my game creation is not based upon the timeline? I come up with the gameplay system and then try to find the right timeline. There was one product where I actually started off with the timeline - that was Lament of Innocence on PS2.

GR: Because that started the series.

KI: Right. But I always come up with the gameplay system first. Currently I do take control of my team members but I want to think about the gameplay system first - I do complain and make a lot of comments to it. But once the team comes up with the new game system and then I think it's right to put it in 1999, then I will tell a story in that timeline.

GR: But you're in charge of the scenario writing for all the games, right?

KI: Actually I'm thinking of retiring with the storyboards. Maybe I will only review, not writing from scratch.

I'm sorry... I'm getting busier and busier. Sometimes I feel like I'm getting too old. I'm just waiting for my lottery winnings and then I can leave Konami.

[Nagumo]

What about Judgment? IGA acknowledged the n64 games by the very inclusion of Cornell and his backstory in the game, his story even leads directly into the events of LoD. Several other characters even bring in details of the backstory from LoD such as Death. This would seem to imply that IGA's opinions of the series has changed a bit since he first made his previous comments nearly a decade ago.

Judgment was never meant to be canon, so I don't think that really counts.

[GrantDaMummy]

"never meant to be canon"

Yes, I've heard that opinion before, only from some Castlevania fans though. No one has posted any specific evidence proving that that opinion is IGA's stance however. No quotes, nothing. Just people's assumptions that because it draws so many characters together from different eras it must not be canon.

On the contrary many review sites have assumed the game is canon, including the review here at Castlevania Dungeon.
http://castlevania.classicgaming.gamespy.com/games/judgment.html

The character roster includes Simon Belmont, Trevor Belmont, Maria Renard, Grant DaNasty, Sypha Belnades, Alucard, Eric Lecarde, Shanoa (fresh off her stint in the DS game order of Ecclesia), Golem (the boss character), Carmilla, Death, Dracula, Cornell (officially acknowledging that the N64 games are once again canon) and a new character named Aeon, a time traveler whose obsessed with clocks and ties together the "plot".

 So ya instead of fan opinions what about official quotes?

[Nagumo]

In Reply To #129

I'm not assuming it 'cause IGA himself said so in an interview. I could quote it but I have to find it first.

[GrantDaMummy]

Good luck on that, I'm pretty sure I've read every single Judgment related interview, and none of them specifically mention "canon" as far as I know. As I've said before in a previous discussion, really post proof or retract. There is enough "hearsay" going on, and people thinking they remember IGA saying something without actually posting any evidence that they aren't misrembering things, using misleading paraphrases or putting words into his IGA's mouth.

I know some people try to twist his quote from gamespy to mean the story doesn't mean anything;

GameSpy: People have been wondering how characters from different Castlevania time periods can appear in the same game. Is this explained in the story mode?
IGA: Yes, the story of why all these characters from different time periods come together is explained, but the story is not the main focus for Judgment. The main focus of this game is a celebration of the franchise's 22-year history, so I wanted to bring these characters together like a festival.

But that quote doesn't really discuss a concept of "canon" at all. He even says that things are explained. Yes he also says the main focus is gameplay, not the story. But he says that about many of the castlevania games in other interviews, such as the interview section I posted above previously.

There is a similar comment in an earalier (before the above interview) Nintendo power preview, but its yet another quote that doesn't say anything about canon, but people have interpreted to IGA meaning "canon". Still that's fan interpretations, not necessarily IGA interpretation.

Edit: Ok, I found my ecclessia nintendo power issue (July 2008) a few interesting comments from IGA in it.

At the time he wrote the article he said he considers the N64 games to be a "gaiden (subseries)" of the Castlevania franchise. This translation of him doesn't mention anything about canon, and uses yet another interpretation of "gaiden" than the usual "side story" translation some interviewers make. He goes onto praise the series as having a

"unique take on the Castlevania world".

Its a strong change to his stance on the games a decade ago when he pretty much completely rididculed them.

Later he goes onto mention CotM, he doesn't state anything about it being canon or not. He gives it praise as well, saying that while he didn't work on it,

"he feels connected to it some way".

He goes onto mention that he hired the director of CotM into his Castlevania team.

As for Legends, he's quite clear with his disgust of it (like in every interview he brings it up).

Aside from Legends all these games [adventure and Belmont's revenge] were made well before I joined Konami...Legends remains something of an embarrassment for the series. If only that development team had the guidedance of the original team on the series!

One of the more interesting comments is his discussion of Symphony of the Night. Its quite clear he loves it. We all love it. But something he said that came off interesting to me was his comment about Symphony starting out as...

"...something of a side story for the series, we were able to break alot of Castlevania conventions and introduce a lost of new elements that we still use today."

The issue doesn't go into any details on Judgment however, I'll check a later issue.

Alright here is the paragraph in the August 2008 issue of Nintendo power. It states (noting that article is discussing an incomplete version of the game before IGA had finalized all the details);

"As for how all these characters from thorughout hte ages wound up fighting each other, Iga remains quiet about the story details, but urges players not to worry about it. "When making this concept we wanted to develop a game that was very lively and had lots of things going on at once, almost like a festival," he states. "To create such a game we decided to ignore the time line of the [series], which is normally very difficult in most cases. However, the end result will allow players to see very interesting matches in the game, since many of the characters have been pulled from different Castlevania titles."

Knowing the fact that IGA has admitted that he comes up with gameplay before he decides on a story, this would seem to imply that in the early version that lacked any storyline, he hadn't thought up the time travel plot yet.

Later interviews such as the one I posted above, he discusses how the storyline they finally figured up, allowed the game to fit, and gave an explanation for how it could fit. This may be one of those cases where IGA changed his mind after the fact, in this case while still developing the game. Its really pretty difficult to take anything seriously that was quoted during alpha/beta version of the game over stuff later said when the game went gold, when his comments contradict each other.

A later nintendo power issue, the special holiday 2008 issue (that's December 2008/Januarary 2009 bonus I think) states in its review of the finalized release version;

"Longtime vampire hunters should especially appreciate the interactions between characters and the attention to continuity in Story Mode."

It was noticed by many reviewers, and even commented upon in a few interviews that contrary to IGA's previous statement he went out of his way to make the story plausible, and to give it an explanation. It wasn't just a storyless arcade game. For a game that IGA had originally believed ignored the timeline, he went out of his way to explain how it fits into the timeline with the final release.

[Nagumo]

In Reply To #131

Wow, maybe you're actually right about this.   

[GrantDaMummy]

In Reply To #132
Ah found another quote from IGA;
http://www.coveritlive.com/index2.php?option=com_altcaster&task=viewaltcast&altcast_code=9cfac7534b&ipod=y

"So as many of you know, the Castlevania timeline goes over 1000 years" "And there is a character trying to destroy that timeline. Due to magic forces, a variety of characters from different eras are brought together"

Seems that while he followed his normal plan of designing the game first without any story ideas. But later he did have the "timeline" on his mind and came up with an idea to make the game work within the timeline.

BTW, does anyone know what the story section of the japanese Judgment site says?

http://www.konami.jp/gs/game/dracula_wii/

A good translation of that site would be nice. Also whats going on with the sidebars next to the characters?

[Nagumo]

Also whats going on with the sidebars next to the characters?

That weird thing on the side shows how strong a character is in certain attributes.

[GrantDaMummy]

In Reply To #134
Ya thanks, ya I knew what the pentagon thing was. I was curious about the characters under it however. The translations stuff. I'm assuming its special move information?

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

Wow, that was a very good, thorough, information-driven post (actually posts), Grant.

Great job, I commend you on your research.

It's really beginning to look like Castlevania's got different timelines.  With the introduction of Aeon in Judgment, and St.Germaine in Curse of Darkness (who, according to Judgment's Aeon's ending, might actually be employed by Aeon, which is pretty groovy), and enemies that have mastered time control, such as Galamoth, Zephyr, and Chronomage, perhaps we've been looking at this Canon thing the wrong way.

I've always thought that there have been "linchpin" points throughout the Castlevania storyline, point during which a different decision generates a different outcome, and it changes everything afterwards.  Usually these are associated with the alternate endings of games (the Sorrow series with Soma is a pretty good example).

[GrantDaMummy]

In Reply To #136

Thanks, Jorge, I'm glad to help any way I can.