Topic: A new approach needed for this series?

[DragonSlayr81]

LoS did SOME things right, I won't argue with that, but IGA's 3D-vanias and N64-Vanias also had some things THEY did right. Personally, unless we get a game that does everything right, it won't feel like the true "next step in CV evolution". What Cox and MS should've done was, take notes at what worked for the other two types of 3D CVs. It's really what IGA should've done with his 3D games too. It's something I fail why it isn't one of the more obvious of choices. When trying to conduct a study of what works and what doesn't, why don't these guys review some of the features? They have all the means to do so. They can conduct polls of what players liked of the N64-vanias and IGA-3Dvanias. It's kinda like the whole "conflicting story" bits. Unless they are making a major reboot, there's no reason for stories to conflict with each other. If I write a sequel to an existing game, I'm going to sure as hell do my research on the original game to make sure I don't look like a douche and fuck up with the details. I'd owe that much to the fans. Tossing in contradicting bits is just overall lazy. 

[Inccubus]

I agree about dumping the more gimmicky crap like the Titans, QTEs, shimmying, and arena combat.
There should be more solid, thoughtful platforming, and definitely take ques from what the earlier 3D titles did right.
Above all they need to be more creative and not rely on every gimmick that every other game tried.
I think they should try to weave a few Castlevania stories for a while before going back to the Satan thing. I never really liked the Satan angle to begin with. Hell I don't even like that they used the name Satan. If they are trying to refer to God's adversary they should have called him Lucifer. Satan is a completely different character in the bible. But at any rate, they didn't really need to involve Satanifer in it. They could have left Zobek as the sole manipulator who eventually becomes one with Death and eventually is enslaved by Gabeula after his fall from grace. Right now there's too much sympathy for Gabeula for him to be an effective ultimate evil for the Belmonts to face. The main thing with Drac's character is his hatred of God. Gabe doesn't seem to really have that at all. In short, screw Kojima and his convoluted stories. There's nothing wrong with a more straight forward tale with just a few twists.

[Renonsgoods]

Here's my template for a great 3D Castlevania:

Legacy of Darkness...level design, platforming style, and atmosphere
Lament of Innocence...boss fights and sub-weapon system
Curse of Darkness...equipment and loot system, entertaining cinematics
Lords of Shadow...overall character/environment art and detail, whip combat system

Add a decent but not overdone plot, a Dracula villain worthy of your apprehension, and a solid score consisting of some great arrangements of all the great CV tracks.  Hit enter...burn disc...print money.

[darkwzrd4]

Here's my template for a great 3D Castlevania:

Legacy of Darkness...level design, platforming style, and atmosphere
Lament of Innocence...boss fights and sub-weapon system
Curse of Darkness...equipment and loot system, entertaining cinematics
Lords of Shadow...overall character/environment art and detail, whip combat system

Add a decent but not overdone plot, a Dracula villain worthy of your apprehension, and a solid score consisting of some great arrangements of all the great CV tracks.  Hit enter...burn disc...print money.

I agree with this. 

[whitedragon_nall]

Here's my template for a great 3D Castlevania:

Legacy of Darkness...level design, platforming style, and atmosphere
Lament of Innocence...boss fights and sub-weapon system
Curse of Darkness...equipment and loot system, entertaining cinematics
Lords of Shadow...overall character/environment art and detail, whip combat system

Add a decent but not overdone plot, a Dracula villain worthy of your apprehension, and a solid score consisting of some great arrangements of all the great CV tracks.  Hit enter...burn disc...print money.

This looks like a great formula to me.

[Maedhros]

I would be satisfied with a 2D game with higher budget than these last ones... I mean, look at this game here (Bloodrayne):

BloodRayne: Betrayal - Debut Trailer

Shit looks marvelous.

[Renonsgoods]

I'd love to see a full glory, made from scratch 2D title on the consoles as much as the next Castlevaniac, but we just as soon face it: Konami doesn't care.  The 2D games are pretty much doomed to handheld systems for the foreseeable future. Harmony of Despair and Rebirth show quite clearly how much they are willing to invest in a home console 2D title.

[X]

I'd love to see a full glory, made from scratch 2D title on the consoles as much as the next Castlevaniac, but we just as soon face it: Konami doesn't care.  The 2D games are pretty much doomed to handheld systems for the foreseeable future. Harmony of Despair and Rebirth show quite clearly how much they are willing to invest in a home console 2D title.

I agree. Adventure ReBirth has some recycled sprites used throughout the game and that tells me that Konami doesn't really care enough to put the effort into it's production budget. Things are no longer like they were back in the 80's. During that time, Konami would've been ripe with new programmers and artist just waiting to get their hands dirty. There wouldn't have been worries about budget cuts or ratings, etc. Back then they gave us awesome games and we were delighted to play them. Now... they're no different then Wall Street   The innocence of the creators has been murdered by greed of profit.

-X

[Inccubus]

"Perhaps the same can be said of all religions..."

[赤月]

Yknow, its funny that people say they want a new approach, but when they get something like Lords of Shadow, they complain.

It's hard to please everyone.
I know lots of people liked Lords of Shadow and the other lot hated it. So, the question is: "What should game developers do to please both sides?"

I personally would love to see a new 3D Igavania.
Overall, Symphony of the Night had addicting gameplay with its numerous equipment and relics. I replayed that game so many times, each time I play it differently, right now, I am challenging the naked Alucard mode [no equipment / relics]. I also love the platforming of SoTN.
I also thought Lament of Innocence was a great game, save for the camera, why Konami decided to take away camera control is beyond me. I loved Walter's castle so much, the atmosphere is just magical.
And there's Lords of Shadow, no matter how much I hated Gabriel, I have to say, the puzzles in that game is pretty solid.
So my ideal game would probably have tons of items and relics for me to play with, SoTN-esque platforming, and a depressing castle for me to explore in with LoS-esque puzzles. Oh and a merchant that is actually IN the castle, with his location that is easy to remember. I found myself visiting the Master Librarian and Hammer the most during my CV playthroughs.
Last but not least, bring back the Ayami Kojima and Michiru Yamane team and I will die happy.

[Munchy]

I've said it before, but I think LoS could benefit from a sequel with a Transylvania-roaming non linear aspect like a 3D Simon's Quest. Having to backtrack when the game is hugely linear is a pain in the ass (See Ultimate Ghosts 'n' Goblins). And there are also my other quibbles which I'm sure other readers have engraved into their skulls by now (QTEs, boring wall shimmying and completely unimaginative music). If those main issues were fixed I'd have enjoyed the game far more. (For God's sake, Araujo, listen to some Stravinsky or Debussy or something.)

I just hope MercurySteam is willing to listen to constructive criticism, building on the good stuff they had and not just writing off LoS haters as people who "don't get it" like Cox did with an early review that gave it a 7. Now I know the feeling when someone criticizes something that's essentially your baby, but c'mon, 7 isn't that bad. Would you prefer someone who didn't play past the first level and slapped on a 3, like the now-infamous God Hand review?

[Renonsgoods]

Truthfully, it's a foregone conclusion that no matter what one does in making a 3D Castlevania...there's going to be core fans that are going to hate it.  Whether it's because it doesn't meet their expectations or simply because it isn't their favorite CV from back in the day dragged into the third dimension. Better to follow one's own vision and see it through than to try and design by committee to try and maximize the target audience.  That's the kind of thing beancounters do (you know, the ones that are rotting the gaming industry).  There's a number of ideas I'd implement if I were to produce a 3D Vania that I KNOW would irk the crap out of a number of people here...but that wouldn't stop me from using them.  You don't compromise artistic vision for fear of what a few purists on the internet are going to think. 

Ultimately, if a long time fan doesn't like what's become of the 3D iterations of their favorite franchise, there's always the traditional 2D titles for them to stay involved with.  And if THAT isn't good enough, games like Rondo, SCV4, and SotN still exist.  No new Castlevania...no matter how horrible it turns out...can make the old favorites go away where you'll never be able to play them again.  Most of the complainers here seem to prefer the classics to the newer games anyways, so I doubt the emotional damage of games like LoS is all that profound when it's all said and done.

[Kamirine]

I agree about dumping the more gimmicky crap like the Titans, QTEs, shimmying, and arena combat.
There should be more solid, thoughtful platforming, and definitely take ques from what the earlier 3D titles did right.
Above all they need to be more creative and not rely on every gimmick that every other game tried.
I think they should try to weave a few Castlevania stories for a while before going back to the Satan thing. I never really liked the Satan angle to begin with. Hell I don't even like that they used the name Satan. If they are trying to refer to God's adversary they should have called him Lucifer. Satan is a completely different character in the bible. But at any rate, they didn't really need to involve Satanifer in it. They could have left Zobek as the sole manipulator who eventually becomes one with Death and eventually is enslaved by Gabeula after his fall from grace. Right now there's too much sympathy for Gabeula for him to be an effective ultimate evil for the Belmonts to face. The main thing with Drac's character is his hatred of God. Gabe doesn't seem to really have that at all. In short, screw Kojima and his convoluted stories. There's nothing wrong with a more straight forward tale with just a few twists.

I suppose this is the main thing I disliked about LoS: the story. Don't get me wrong, I didn't mind certain parts but the entire thing with Satan and the way it was handled--it had more of a Dante's Inferno storyline nod with slight varivation on how the hero got from point A to point B, but the core elements are still the same in the end (which is already arguably bad considering the gameplay seemed to borrow aspects from other great 3D titles instead of trying to branch out and try it's own thing.) Then there was the entire thing with Gabe being Dracula...I don't mind him being sympathetic (that's what I liked about Mathias and his hatred of God at feeling betrayed) but honestly, he seems to have absolutely no edge to him as an evil Dark Lord at all. I didn't get the vibe at all, not even when he was presented in modern day New York (and I'll openly admit, I'm not a big fan of that either. Not that it's in modern time but that Satan is seemingly becoming the new main bad guy and Dracula is some tragic hero instead of a tragic individual that became an evil bastard) ...I wasn't a fan of it.
Coupled with, as I mentioned, game play/gimmicks from other popular 3d titles, by the end, it felt more like something reminiscent to Castlevania by name and few mentionable things, such as names (and even then, it was a strong departure from any past portrayal from said characters) from past games slightly shoehorned in for the sake of things, which was why I wasn't too fond of the game.

I wouldn't mind a change to Dracula's lore from what's been established--I like the fallen knight with a grudge against God just as much as an evil tyrant of a war lord that makes a deal with the devil, as long as it's done well and as long as the core concept of him being a truly evil, even horrific threat that needs to be vanished for the sake of all humanity is still intact, which, silly story or not, the past CV games have tried to convey in one way or another, in every game where he is the primary villain. I don't need an older CV game in 3D: I don't mind change, I don't mind the series evolving. I just want a game that would literally incorporate various elements, both gameplay and storyline wise, from the previous games, weaving what works together, and adding new elements to add a flourish, which is what I feel like in large part, LoS really didn't do. (Though it did have some good ideas.)

Personally, I rather like your idea Renonsgoods.

[BMC_War Machine]

I actually liked the change of pace LoS brought.  It was a very nice twist to the entire series in general, and makes you think "makes sense why the belmont's are linked to Dracula and are so powerful".  I wish I had a recording of my face the first time i saw the ending, "OOOHHH SNAP!!!!!" lmao!

[Flame]

just a small musing on LoS reactions before it came out as opposed to when it came out.

* "Lords of Shadow" teaser trailer comes out, not yet named Castlevania.  "oooh reminds me of Castlevania!! looks cool!"

*Screenshots surface. Now named Castlevania LoS, as a re-boot. "Looks awesome to play! in fact almost reminds me of classicvania..."

*More trailers come out.  "this looks pretty epic! might be the epic-est castlevania yet!"


*game comes out.  "BAAAAWWW NOTHING LIKE CASTLEVANIA."

Jesus Christ I swear, The fanbase...