Topic: A new approach needed for this series?

[Renonsgoods]

In the wake of all the feedback I've been reading on various forums (both positive and negative) in response to the arrival of LoS, I've been pondering whether an entirely new approach should be taken with this series moving forward.  It's obvious that, for the most part, the original timeline has become over-mined...and a reboot is inevitably going to alienate alot of the core franchise fans.  Perhaps it's time Konami consider handling Castlevania in the same way that Nintendo has handled the Legend of Zelda series in the past....each episode being it's own self-contained reimagining of the core legend.  While there would still be a place for sequels and prequels, it would remove the burden on the dev team to try and make a story that fits into a pre-determined series of events.  It would also remove the burden on the dev team to create a story that has to lend itself to future titles in order to be an accepted part of the franchise.

Another big reason I bring this up is because lately I've been thinking about how diluted the character of Dracula as a villain has become because of all the shenanigans that have gone on throughout the whole of this series.  He's become something of a running gag, someone that the player really can't take seriously because we all know that he's just going to get resurrected AGAIN about 10 years after we put him down.  Hell, he doesn't even get a chance to reach full power before coming back into the world to cause mayhem.  It's almost a given that he won't be at the top of his potential when we stroll into his lavishly decorated thrown room.  What kind of villain does that make him?

I'd like to see a new tale written for this franchise that really puts a spotlight on him as a truly masterful, monstrous foe.  A title that acts as a sort of microcosm of the entire Castlevania series...taking its best elements, ideas, and characters...and fusing them into a single, concise game.  I want a CV game that feels like it has a beginning, middle, and end...with Dracula's rise as a dark lord being the prologue, and his demise at the hero's hands being the conclusion (as in.....NO more resurrections afterwards).  I'd like to see a Dracula that isn't some moody bloke from the 11th century, but one that is a creative mixture of the historical Dracula, the Bram Stoker legend, and CV's most famous end boss.  Give him some presence in the course of the game's plot...something more than to just be a glorified final obstacle for the player to overcome.  I'm not saying that the storytelling has to become as dominate within the game as MGS, but we really need a story that better defines Dracula as a great villain...and makes players anticipate their inevitable battle with him come game's end.  This is something that I just don't feel that any of the 3D Vanias, to date, has managed to do (and in a sense, neither have many of the 2D titles).

I don't know.  I guess I'm just tired of the half-baked plots and superficial characters. I'm not concerned about the future of the 2D series, as it has a well established formula that isn't hard to build on (plus the stories in those games are of little consequence to the gameplay). But if this series is to blaze forward into the HD gaming future, it needs a fair bit more creativity thrown at it.  I think all four of the 3D titles have done some great things individually, but at the same time all have have featured blatant weaknesses that lent them to deserved criticisms.  There just appears to be too much "market research" going on here and not enough artistic license. It just seems that Castlevania is slowly falling victim to the corporate machine...whether it's telling the game devs what standards they have to adhere to, or telling them that they AREN'T allowed to do anything similar to what has been done in the past. I just have to wonder if the beancounters at Konami understand that it IS possible to produce a top-shelf 3D Vania project that fully honors its heritage without having to sacrifice creativity.

Just my thoughts here, guys.  Not looking to start any flame wars or arguments.

[RichterB]

You make a lot of good points, and I think this is for the best. The tension of one person versus an overwhelming, famous evil is what should be emphasized. As an aside, I think that CV64/LoD did some of that character building with Dracula in a way, having your progress tracked by other vampires or Death, and how he appears and taunts you in level 2 (the "miserable worm" line, etc).

[darkwzrd4]

While I'm hesitant to admit it, you do have a point.  The LoS story seemed a bit weak and the old cannon is a mess as far as the story goes.  Between adding new games and removing some older ones from the cannon, it just doesn't come off as a cohesive story.  Then again, that's the price for extending a story for more than 20 years and not creating it in order.

I do agree that a new approach is needed.  The series doesn't even have to be that long and there can be more than one just make sure that each alternate CV series has something that distinguishes it from the others.  Also, if this is going to be the case, the overall story should be written first and then the games can be made.  In other words, start with the beginning (Dracula's rise to power), next have the middle (likely the origin of the Belmonts), and finally have the conclusion (the Belmonts invading the castle and destroying Dracula).

The problem with the old cannon is that individuals like IGA would come up with an idea for a game first and then find a way to shoehorn it into the series, which is a little counter intuitive to me.

This is just my opinion of course.

[C Belmont]

Perhaps it's time Konami consider handling Castlevania in the same way that Nintendo has handled the Legend of Zelda series in the past....each episode being it's own self-contained reimagining of the core legend

I've always thought that the early Castlevania games already had an approach very similar to the legend of Zelda. Each game was a self contained episode of the Belmont clan’s legendary battle against Dracula, just like each Zelda game is another episode of Link's battle against evil which spans several lifetimes.

[Kingshango]

I agree on the handling of Dracula in the old timeline, they basically turned him into a childrens chewtoy (hell he was basically BEATEN by children.)

I wanna see Dracula become a total monster, no more sitting in the top tower's watching his monster's get effortlessly massacared by a man with a whip. I wanna see him fly down and take a little baby boy from a village and impale him on a pike and show a Belmont as an example to not fuck with him (too far?)

[angevil]

First of all, the new CV should be 2D. Beautiful graphics, Ayami Kojima`s art for promotion, music in the same style as past games (possibly Michiru Yamane). For the approach, I would say that Ecclesia handled it very well. It was epic and it had sadness in it. Dracula should hurt someone close to the main hero, do much evil etc., not just appear to say things, agreed. The game must have no humor and jokes, like POR and DOS had. That kills the game`s mood. I would very much like the 1999 game with Julius. If it is as good as Ecclesia, it would be enough for me. I don`t expect miracles. I love CV as it was..Symphony, Aria, Harmony..if it is in that style, with a new good story, nice graphics/art and enjoyable music, I will be more than satisfied.

[Successor The Cruel]

I'm not even sure if I want to see IGA stuff once again, but I would really like to see someone do something that's good. I'm kind of interested in seeing what he can do with another serious entry (meaning no fighting games or download games), because I really do love Order of Ecclesia.

As far as how to handle the timeline... I don't know. I think Castlevania's specific chronology is one of the hallmarks of the series and one of the fascinating points about it. I understand there is so much stuff now that it can sort of be hard to keep up or take seriously, but there is also something to be said for not rebooting the series after 20 plus years. I always had respect for Green Lantern comic books because ever since 1959, the series has never, EVER been restarted, at least not to where the history is wiped out and the story begins again. But yeah, I understand all the baggage that comes along with something like that, and I know that Castlevania is a much less open ended thing, so it's much easier to write yourself in a corner.

[X]

I agree Renonsgoods. CV needs to be made anew without all the nonsense that IGA threw in there. It needs a badass Dracula (Vlad III type and not the Mathias pussy), new Belmonts (Both male AND female lead roles), etc.

-X

[Puwexil]

I don't know how you'd choose the word "pussy" to summarize Mathias' character. He's a ruthless master manipulator out to defy God. What a fucking pussy.

[beingthehero]

I agree Renonsgoods. CV needs to be made anew without all the nonsense that IGA threw in there. It needs a badass Dracula (Vlad III type and not the Mathias pussy), new Belmonts (Both male AND female lead roles), etc.

-X

Well uh
http://images.wikia.com/castlevania/images/8/84/OoE_Dracula.JPG
How is this not badass?

Unless you mean we need to stick with angsty Dracula hiding in a church in downtown New York City. I feel ridiculous just writing that sentence.

[Renonsgoods]

Box art does not a badass Dracula character make.  My point is that in the realm of the 3D titles, Dracula needs to be something more than just a posterboy for evil.  He needs to BE evil.  He can't just show up at the two minute warning and generate the whole of his "badassness" by spewing a few ham-fisted lines just prior to the final battle.  That stuff works fine for the 2D titles...it does not fly for the 3D ones.  I want him to be an underlying presence throughout much of the game...a constant reminder to the player of why he/she is bothering to make this bloody trek through a dark keep to put this monster in the ground.  IMO, there's not much difference between being "angsty" and "running ones mouth without a whole lot to back it up".  Both traits could be used to describe the Dracula that we've been plagued with since the SotN days.

And sorry, but I still think it's a terrible idea to drag the character of Dracula away from his roots.  I can't stand it when movies or games try to establish him as something that predates the historical or Bram Stoker version.  The idea of planting his origins as something completely different back during the 11th century is something that LoI and LoS both got wrong as far as I'm concerned.  It just felt like a very artificial move made purely to try and make room for additional tales in the timeline. Why can't Drac just be the very notorious Impaler of Transylvanian fame?  The idea of such a man gaining access to immense, demonic powers sounds loads better than a simple holy crusader fallen from grace that gains lots of power via some random powerful artifact.  

[beingthehero]

...you do realize Dracula started jawboning during his bishonen Rondo of Blood appearance, right?

There wasn't really anything highly intimidating about Dracula in any of the earlier CV titles other than the fact he was the final boss and thus the hardest unless you're considering Simon's Quest. To say that Dracula has to be hardcore for the sake of being gritty and raw misses the point entirely. It's like when people reminisce about the good ol' mature days of Castlevania, until you actually sit down and play it. You don't play CV1, nod to yourself, and think "yes. this homage to monster-mash is a mature game for mature gamers."

Dracula has never displayed 'evil-ness' in the entire series other than being a cartoony villain with cartoon-like schemes, like the rest of the monster cast. The series started out as a loving nod to Hammer Horror films and their inherent goofiness.

The closest Dracula has ever come to displaying 'true' evil was in CVIII, when he went from Dracula to a dictator who also happened to be Dracula. In fact, it was SotN and the other games that tried to flesh him out more so he wasn't just The Final Boss who occasionally engaged in cartoon schemes like conquering the world or kidnapping damsels like Annette or Simon's wife in Haunted Castle. Were they silly? Sure, and they were continuing the tradition. Castlevania has always been a tongue-in-cheek series. Wishing for a raw and adult and mature Dracula would certainly be a change of pace, because - before and after SotN- we never had that before.

[thernz]

Or maybe CV Dracula pretended to be Vlad III during CVIII...
Besides that, I think the connection between Stoker's Dracula and Vlad III is mostly name-only at most. There are references, but they're just vague pseudo-historical flair. You know, considering that Stoker renamed the vampire to Dracula after reading a book that had his name.

[Renonsgoods]

Well, understand...I'm addressing this series' direction so far as the 3D titles are concerned.  I'm well aware of how inconsequential these proceedings are in regards to the 2d titles of both the past and the future.  You are very much correct that Castlevania started out as little more than a lighthearted ode to classical monster flicks of yesteryear.  And like I said, that direction suits the 2D style games very much. But in order for this franchise to successfully move forward in the 3D realm it's going to have to take itself more seriously than the older 2D games did.  It's going to have to have a much better fleshed out villain.  It's going to have to have a plot that intrigues without feeling overdone or overly derivative. Castlevania has to evolve in order to make it work well in the next gen crowd.  That doesn't necessarily mean throwing out everything that made it work to begin with (quite the opposite actually), but it does mean finding new ways of using those basic elements so that they work appropriately within the scope of a modern third person action-platformer.

So, yea.  We didn't need a scary Drac for, say, CVIII or SotN...but I think we DO need one for a top notch next gen Castlevania.  And even if we don't NEED such a Dracula......wouldn't you want one (as opposed to a cliched cartoon character in an evening suit)?

[Munchy]

And sorry, but I still think it's a terrible idea to drag the character of Dracula away from his roots.  I can't stand it when movies or games try to establish him as something that predates the historical or Bram Stoker version.  The idea of planting his origins as something completely different back during the 11th century is something that LoI and LoS both got wrong as far as I'm concerned.  It just felt like a very artificial move made purely to try and make room for additional tales in the timeline. Why can't Drac just be the very notorious Impaler of Transylvanian fame?  The idea of such a man gaining access to immense, demonic powers sounds loads better than a simple holy crusader fallen from grace that gains lots of power via some random powerful artifact.  

Completely agree here.