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Offline JR

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #225 on: January 05, 2012, 05:29:59 AM »
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Not by default, but someone could easily see it by toggling the wall view to "Everyone (Most Recent)" at the top of the page.
I like big butts, but I do have the tendency to lie quite a bit.

Offline Sumac

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #226 on: January 05, 2012, 08:00:27 AM »
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There is no need for bitching to be taken rather not seriously. Too many  demands AKA "Forceful demands" is enough
I'll explain: what you made are sevearl "forcefull demands". But demanding too much is practically as bad as demanding something forcefully, especially, when the people you demanding from, are not exactly in position where they MUST cater to your demands.

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He's needed for the Demon Castle War, because that was his story and his vision.  Beyond that, I'm sure there are other men that can do Akumajo Dracula justice.
Sorry, but this is where I am completely in disagreement with you. Given that it was exactly IGA's vision that make the series canon what it is now, I personally don't want to trust to him any key decisions regarding that matter. As for "his vision" mostly it was work of Ayami Kojima - she created that unique atmospehre with her concepts. As soon as art direction changed to animeisque most of the IGA's vision (if not all of it) went out of the window.
If anything she is the key member of the previous CV team(s) that should return on board. As for IGA - he did his part. He outlined the storyline of DCW and thing that someone else must elaborate on it, otherwise it would end up as crazy mess like AOS or execution completely kill anything good about the story (like POR or to lesser degree LOI).

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I acknowledge that.  Still, it will be interesting to see how Generations' sales ultimately compares to Sonic's recent 3-D outings...
It is not very fair to compare different outing by the same franchise, when we talk about other series in general.
Aside from that, given how notorious 3D Sonic games were, it would be a rather a dubious attempt.

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there will always be trolls saying 500 isn't enough, 1000 isn't enough, 2000 isn't enough, 5000 isn't enough, 10,000 isn't enough... etc, etc, etc...
1000 maybe enough. But 300 is not very much really. Konami must be interested to sell this game. And 300 people is not a serious consumer base. Especally given the scope of the project you propose.

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Did it occur to you that Konami may actually be able to support both forms of Castlevania?
And they should do it because you desire it personally?
It was already explained why Konami most likely will abandon previous formulas. They want to make CV big franchise once again and for that there should be only one version of it. Otherwise it would confuse potential buyers and ultimately could even harm sales, if there would be two radicaly different big projects under the same name. Talking about stepping on your own toes.

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They ought to ditch high fantasy and go back to vampires (and not Warcraft Eradar labeled as vampires.)
Considering how little CV had vampires in the past, that statement is strange to say the least.

Offline beingthehero

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #227 on: January 05, 2012, 08:18:47 AM »
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You don't remember the vampires from CV64? That was one of the best things about the game.

Offline Flame

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #228 on: January 05, 2012, 11:34:56 AM »
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Thats the one game.

Every other game only has Vampires as bosses/main story enemies.

LoS is the only other game besides CV64 to have stage enemy vampires.

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crazy mess like AOS
Whats wrong with AoS?
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Offline beingthehero

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #229 on: January 05, 2012, 01:12:26 PM »
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You also forgot OoE's vampire waifus and SotN's Bitterflies (Mayan vampires). But what I really meant was, a vampiric mood. Like SCIV, Bloodlines, CV2...not the epic fantasy merlin sword in the stone schlock.

Offline e105beta

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #230 on: January 05, 2012, 02:00:51 PM »
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Flame already made many of my points, perhaps in a nicer way than I would have put it, but:

This isn’t about Castlevania, but humor me a moment and watch the entire video.
**not safe for work**

Capcom Says Fans Are to Blame for Mega Man Legends 3 Being Cancelled

This man is bitching, moaning, self-entitled, demanding, vulgar, and unprofessional --he IS the bratty kid that didn't get the game he wanted for Christmas....  But you know what?  He has a legitimate complaint and a rational argument, and I support his message and his cause 110% --because he's right.

Operation: Akumajo is a protest against Konami's treatment of Castlevania.  Our cause is the preservation of Akumajo Dracula and the 2-D artform.  Our specific goals are the development of both the Demon Castle War and the remastering of Dracula's Curse.  And contrary to all the sanctimonious comments in this topic, OA doesn't produce or circulate anything close to this kind of vulgar, vitriolic material.  We intend to make our points forcefully, because that's the nature of activism --but we intend to do so as reasonably and as responsibly as possible.

I will give you as many points as you want for not being an angry basement kid posting videos like this.

And to be honest, while it might not seem like it, I appreciate your goals. I loved Lords of Shadow, and while I'm a bit ambivalent on the fate of the Metroidvania, I wouldn't want to see the Classicvania's I so love disappear from the face of the earth. I, however, accept the fact that, before Lords of Shadow, Castlevania had dropped off the map and that the people who want a game such as you are proposing are very few and far in between in comparison to the overall market.

But that's the thing, you're not proposing. You're demanding. They've given you a Castlevania game, and you didn't like it, and now you're fighting against every purchase that has made Lords of Shadow more profitable to Konami than all of the low selling Castlevania games of yesteryear.

It's not like Konami canceled the Demon Castle War game or is failing to bring it overseas. It doesn't exist. It's never existed. There's never been any plans for it, and in order to not look like a complaining niche fan group, you're going to have to provide Konami with some big numbers and some hard facts if you want to convince them to make your game. It's essentially a pitch, and half of a pitch is market statistics. Outside of that, the movement comes off as exceedingly entitled because it is sending the message that Konami owes them a game, which they absolutely do not, and Operation Akumajo will be better off when it understands that.

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When you see a game selling multi-millions like Metal Gear Solid, you can look at a variety of reasons why --genre, story, gameplay, marketing, etc... But I’ll stand by what I’ve said over and over throughout this topic about quality.

MGS games are high quality products designed by some of the most experienced and talented professionals in the industry.  With that said, MGS also enjoys the rare luxury of a producer who is the sitting Vice President of Konami Digital Entertainment.  Wielding that kind of power immediately eliminates many of the financial obstacles that most other game producers are forced to deal with.  Looking at this situation objectively, you can’t possibly deny that these are the ideal conditions for any game to be developed --MGS or otherwise.

While Castlevania’s 25th Anniversary passed without any fanfare, Konami made it a higher priority to repackage HD versions of their PS2 MGS games that are already widely owned and abundantly available to those that don’t at cheap prices.  Let’s consider the example of Snake Eater.  Metal Gear Solid 3 had its original release way back in 2004, Subsistence in 2006, the Essential Collection in 2008, the HD Collection in 2011, and now the 3DS version is due in the next couple months.  This kind of saturation almost harkens back to how greedily Capcom exploited Street Fighter II back in the 90’s --and we all know how that eventually ended...

You’d think Konami might have some people studying the console market, people who take notice when a 2-D game like Super Mario Bros Wii sells 24 million copies...  Sonic Generations has only been out for a couple months, and it’s already started running circles around Lords of Shadow’s Global sales...  Of course, you could easily chalk that up to the genre or brand recognition, but the fact is if Konami really wanted to dip their toe in the water (at a bare minimum of expense) they could easily do so by giving the Dracula X Chronicles the Peace Walker treatment.  As for OA, give it time...

Whether or not Kojima is flouting his status in order to pump out Metal Gear Solid games is irrelevant. It's like complaining that Nintendo makes less Metroid games than Mario games because Miyamoto didn't make Metroid. When it comes to brass tacks, Mario sells more than Metroid, despite the high quality of such titles as Metroid Prime. Likewise, Metal Gear Solid, for one reason or another, has a larger market appeal and a larger fanbase, and thus Metal Gear Solid games are lower risk and higher reward than a Castlevania game. That's just how it is.

That's the thing. While both are important, in the end, market appeal is hugely important. The fact that there are high quality games every year that don't become blockbuster hits proves that.

I too was bummed that there was no fanfare for the 25th anniversary, and that's a great platform to base Operation: Akumajo off of, but going after Metal Gear Solid because of it just makes you look jealous.

Also, I'd like to point out, that while you keep pointing out Mario and Sonic, please remember that they are Mario and Sonic.

Mario and Sonic.

Offline Esco

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #231 on: January 05, 2012, 07:57:21 PM »
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Goddamn..... this thing is up to 16 pages now!? Wow.... simply amazing.

I will say only this at this point: CECIL-KAIN I give you mad props for continuing trying to make a difference even in the face of all the adversity you are receiving from this "community."

What you are doing is definitely a way more productive attempt at getting results than all of those people in here who have nothing to offer but negative critiques of the way you are making your attempt. Most of them couldn't even commit to something like what you are doing for more than a week without going insane to the point of shaving themselves bald, gluing feathers to their asses, and calling themselves a goddamn chicken.  :P

I truly hope that you somehow get results thru some miracle; we would all probably benefit from it. And if not, well props to you for being one of the few people around who actually TRIES to get some kind of result.  8)
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Offline Flame

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #232 on: January 05, 2012, 10:39:05 PM »
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So we are not allowed to criticize him?
Criticism is "nothing to offer"?
It's "Not productive"?

We are not bashing him or flaming him, we are giving him constructive criticism. He is heading a movement which claims to speak for Castlevania fans. And as Castlevania fans, we  are criticizing what we see as flaws in his movement. Simple as that. We just dont like his demanding self entitled approach to OA, and are presenting our opinions on why and how he should change it.
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Offline cecil-kain

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #233 on: January 06, 2012, 12:02:28 AM »
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I'll explain: what you made are sevearl "forcefull demands". But demanding too much is practically as bad as demanding something forcefully, especially, when the people you demanding from, are not exactly in position where they MUST cater to your demands.

 I see.  So you believe we’re asking too much of Konami.  Fair enough.

Quite frankly, it would be naive to believe that Konami will do everything that we’re asking for --even if we had thousands of fans behind our cause.  But the fact is that by boldly put our demands on the table, we’ve raised the expectation and applied pressure that otherwise would not exist.

I don’t know if you have children...  But if I tell my daughters to fold 6 loads of laundry before bed (knowing full well they usually do 2 or 3) they may strive for the 6, but only get 4 or 5 done loads folded.  Have they failed to meet my demands?  Yes, but they haven’t failed to improve --and improvement was the real expectation all along.  And who knows, maybe those girls would surprise me by working their tails off and getting the 6 loads folded after all --the door is certainly open for that.

My point to you is this.  The demands are a starting point for a negotiation.  Excellent results never come from lowballing the expectations.

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Sorry, but this is where I am completely in disagreement with you. Given that it was exactly IGA's vision that make the series canon what it is now, I personally don't want to trust to him any key decisions regarding that matter. As for "his vision" mostly it was work of Ayami Kojima - she created that unique atmospehre with her concepts. As soon as art direction changed to animeisque most of the IGA's vision (if not all of it) went out of the window.

If anything she is the key member of the previous CV team(s) that should return on board. As for IGA - he did his part. He outlined the storyline of DCW and thing that someone else must elaborate on it, otherwise it would end up as crazy mess like AOS or execution completely kill anything good about the story (like POR or to lesser degree LOI).

When I was talking about IGA’s vision, I was referring specifically to his plans to wrap up the continuity with 1999 storyline --not the atmosphere or art direction...  I suppose someone else could pick up where he left off, but I honestly don’t see the harm in letting him finish the job.

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It is not very fair to compare different outing by the same franchise, when we talk about other series in general.
Aside from that, given how notorious 3D Sonic games were, it would be a rather a dubious attempt.

I don’t know about that...  If we’re seriously going to evaluate the viability of the 2-D artform, it seems the most logical sales comparison would be 3-D games within the same franchise.  2-D Mario Vs 3-D Mario --2-D Sonic Vs 3-D Sonic --etc...

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1000 maybe enough. But 300 is not very much really. Konami must be interested to sell this game. And 300 people is not a serious consumer base. Especally given the scope of the project you propose.

At this point, exposure is the bigger problem.  Like I mentioned before, the DS Castlevanias sold an average of about 325,000 copies each.  And the DXC sold 354,000 copies (not including PSN downloads)  These are the fans that need to be reached to grow the movement, but let’s compare those figures to OA’s actual exposure.  The Official Castlevania Facebook page has about 158,500 fans --only a few hundred of which appear to be actively engaged.  The Castlevania Dungeon has about 1600 members --only about 100 of which appear to be actively engaged.  And finally, OA’s most popular Youtube video has about 3,300 views.  Taking these figures into consideration, we can speculate that OA has only reached a few thousand Castlevania fans AT BEST...  Meaning --many tens of thousands more have yet to be reached...

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And they should do it because you desire it personally?

No.  They should do it because there is still a well-established, extremely loyal fanbase numbering 300,000+ that is consistently willing to buy.

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It was already explained why Konami most likely will abandon previous formulas. They want to make CV big franchise once again and for that there should be only one version of it. Otherwise it would confuse potential buyers and ultimately could even harm sales, if there would be two radicaly different big projects under the same name. Talking about stepping on your own toes.

Aren't you forgetting someone?



Megaman is a textbook example of how to do a Multiverse successfully.  We have Classic, X, Legends, Battle Network, Zero, ZX, and Star Force --on second thought, maybe Capcom overdid it toward the end...  Oh well, you get the idea.

Flame already made many of my points, perhaps in a nicer way than I would have put it, but:

Awe c'mon --is it that hard to be nice?  jk ;-)

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I will give you as many points as you want for not being an angry basement kid posting videos like this.

And to be honest, while it might not seem like it, I appreciate your goals. I loved Lords of Shadow, and while I'm a bit ambivalent on the fate of the Metroidvania, I wouldn't want to see the Classicvania's I so love disappear from the face of the earth. I, however, accept the fact that, before Lords of Shadow, Castlevania had dropped off the map and that the people who want a game such as you are proposing are very few and far in between in comparison to the overall market

While it's true Castlevania has declined since SotN, the handheld 2-D games maintained stable sales with the support of a very loyal fanbase.  The problem as I see it though is stagnation.  Think about it.  SotN and OoE were released nearly 12 years apart --but the graphics and overall design are so very similar, that a mainstream gamer could barely tell the difference.  Konami could have raised the bar years ago by putting a 2-D game like the DXC on a popular home console like the PS2 --instead they let Castlevania's 2-D games languish on the portables while pushing mediocre 3-D games on the consoles...

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But that's the thing, you're not proposing. You're demanding.

Have you read the Mission Statement lately?  I know it's not perfect, but it has been completely rewritten once and further tweaked half a dozen times.  The word "demand" has not appeared in the mission statement in over 5 months, and most of the other abrasive language has been significantly softened or removed.  Reading comments like this I wonder why I even bothered.  Either you're not paying any attention or there's just no pleasing you.

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They've given you a Castlevania game, and you didn't like it, and now you're fighting against every purchase that has made Lords of Shadow more profitable to Konami than all of the low selling Castlevania games of yesteryear.

There is a distinction that needs to be made here.  Rejecting LoS as a reboot doesn't necessarily equate to hating the game.  Although that is sometimes the case, you need to understand that some Akumajo fans, while appreciating LoS, also see it for the unique IP it is.  Now that the fans have had a chance to digest LoS, their continued loyalty to the Castlevania brand remains to be seen.  If I were David Cox I'd be paying *very* close attention...

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It's not like Konami canceled the Demon Castle War game or is failing to bring it overseas. It doesn't exist. It's never existed. There's never been any plans for it, and in order to not look like a complaining niche fan group, you're going to have to provide Konami with some big numbers and some hard facts if you want to convince them to make your game. It's essentially a pitch, and half of a pitch is market statistics. Outside of that, the movement comes off as exceedingly entitled because it is sending the message that Konami owes them a game, which they absolutely do not, and Operation Akumajo will be better off when it understands that.

Konami already has a wealth of sales data, so they already have a good idea how large the Castlevania fanbase actually is.  But for all of their numbers, they don't hear the voice of the fans --OA is an opportunity for the fans to speak out and tell Konami what we want.  Once Konami actually hears that voice and acknowledges our desires, then it's up to them to do their homework, and then decide if they are willing and able to meet those needs.

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Whether or not Kojima is flouting his status in order to pump out Metal Gear Solid games is irrelevant. It's like complaining that Nintendo makes less Metroid games than Mario games because Miyamoto didn't make Metroid. When it comes to brass tacks, Mario sells more than Metroid, despite the high quality of such titles as Metroid Prime. Likewise, Metal Gear Solid, for one reason or another, has a larger market appeal and a larger fanbase, and thus Metal Gear Solid games are lower risk and higher reward than a Castlevania game. That's just how it is.

Unfortunately.  It's just a matter of time before Konami overmilks their cash-cow and realizes what a bad idea it was to put so many eggs in one basket.  Reselling the same games every 2 years will not take MGS or Konami to a good place.

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That's the thing. While both are important, in the end, market appeal is hugely important. The fact that there are high quality games every year that don't become blockbuster hits proves that.

Marketing and competition are major factors as well.

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I too was bummed that there was no fanfare for the 25th anniversary, and that's a great platform to base Operation: Akumajo off of, but going after Metal Gear Solid because of it just makes you look jealous.

The 25th Anniversary was a central platform prominently featured in the Mission Statement.  The Metal Gear Solid comparison was just a bullet point on a propaganda piece.  But honestly, as a Castlevania fan, what's not to be jealous of?

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Also, I'd like to point out, that while you keep pointing out Mario and Sonic, please remember that they are Mario and Sonic.

Fair enough.

Goddamn..... this thing is up to 16 pages now!? Wow.... simply amazing.

I will say only this at this point: CECIL-KAIN I give you mad props for continuing trying to make a difference even in the face of all the adversity you are receiving from this "community."

What you are doing is definitely a way more productive attempt at getting results than all of those people in here who have nothing to offer but negative critiques of the way you are making your attempt. Most of them couldn't even commit to something like what you are doing for more than a week without going insane to the point of shaving themselves bald, gluing feathers to their asses, and calling themselves a goddamn chicken.  :P

I truly hope that you somehow get results thru some miracle; we would all probably benefit from it. And if not, well props to you for being one of the few people around who actually TRIES to get some kind of result.  8)

Esco, your comment gave very good chuckle after a very, very long day.  Thanks man.  8)

Offline Sumac

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #234 on: January 06, 2012, 05:41:15 AM »
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But the fact is that by boldly put our demands on the table, we’ve raised the expectation and applied pressure that otherwise would not exist. My point to you is this.  The demands are a starting point for a negotiation.  Excellent results never come from lowballing the expectations.

There is difference in how you state your demands.
One thing is to ask: "Why don't you (Konami), please, consider making a game that will be based on previous (good) 2D outings of the series? We have some stats to back up that it could be profitable project."
And another is to shout: "Hey, Konami, give us 2D Demon Castle Wars HD and remake of CV3 and forget about LOS, because WE WANT IT, DAMMIT!!!"
See the difference?

In the first you maybe will be listened. In the second you will be regarded as obsessed fanboy. The most you''ll get would a polite reply: "Thank you for your support =)." And that's that.
As others already said, only demands, epsecially if they are stated quite forcefully, wouldn't be enough to kickstart anything. Only if you have some people at Konami that will back you up. But it's likely not the case.

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When I was talking about IGA’s vision, I was referring specifically to his plans to wrap up the continuity with 1999 storyline --not the atmosphere or art direction...

I believe IGA himself not needed to finish the project. An ideal team would be: Kojima + designers behind OOE / SOTN + Ayane (possibly) + big budjet and IGA somewhere overseeing it.

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I don’t know about that...  If we’re seriously going to evaluate the viability of the 2-D artform, it seems the most logical sales comparison would be 3-D games within the same franchise.  2-D Mario Vs 3-D Mario --2-D Sonic Vs 3-D Sonic --etc...
Considering its Mario and Sonic, that's not exactly right decision.

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Meaning --many tens of thousands more have yet to be reached...
Or were reached, but not ultimately interested at all.
You need something to unite fans. And demands, especially that specific is not the way to do it. Besides, do you seriously believe that even if Konami listen to your ply, they will make the game exactly like you see it in your brain? I doubt it. So there is no neccessity to demand something that specific from them.

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No.  They should do it because there is still a well-established, extremely loyal fanbase numbering 300,000+ that is consistently willing to buy.
Loyality is such thing that it could easily go away. Especially if you demand something tailored to your own taste.

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Megaman is a textbook example of how to do a Multiverse successfully.  We have Classic, X, Legends, Battle Network, Zero, ZX, and Star Force --on second thought, maybe Capcom overdid it toward the end...  Oh well, you get the idea.
There is difference. MegaMan was like that for the last decade, this series practically breathes this trope. Castlevania never embraced this idea, except for few games that were tossed out of the canon. In general I couldn't remember any big Konami franchise that had several subseries going on at the same time (CV, Contra, MGS, SH).

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Reselling the same games every 2 years will not take MGS or Konami to a good place.
Sounds like jelaousy.
On note: last big MGS project wasn't released twice. And Peace Walker was rereleased for the new platform, so it not like it was released twice on the same console.

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Most of them couldn't even commit to something like what you are doing for more than a week without going insane to the point of shaving themselves bald, gluing feathers to their asses, and calling themselves a goddamn chicken.
 
There is difference between activity that could result in something and activity that could result in nothing. As far as I can say OA is not something that could make "a something good". But making Konami thing that old CV dans are obsessive group that lives in the past - could be a result. Besides I personally against ressurection of the 2D metroidvanias any soon. There was too many of them that offered too much of the same. I don't want CV fall into the self-repetition yet again, not after series seemingly more or less climbed out of that puddle of mud and moved on.

Offline Flame

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #235 on: January 06, 2012, 09:05:36 AM »
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Megaman is a textbook example of how to do a Multiverse successfully.

Correction; Mega Man is textbook example of how to do a timeline successfully.

You've got in Mega Man, a franchise who's story successfully spans centuries.

Classic ->100yr-> X ->100yr-> Zero ->200yr-> ZX ---->undisclosed amount, possibly thousands----> Legends

There is only 1 other universe, that being the Battle Network universe, which goes Battle Network ->200yr-> Star Force

And there is one alternate timeline, which is Rockman Online, which seems to run parallel to the Zero series.


Castlevania does a timeline good too, buuuut not AS good. the Mega Man world, and everything in it consistently evolves with the time that passes. Specifically the technology within the story.

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    When I was talking about IGA’s vision, I was referring specifically to his plans to wrap up the continuity with 1999 storyline --not the atmosphere or art direction...

The problem with having IGA involved is that he tries to come up with gameplay before story or atmosphere or anything. Which affects things a bit. Especially when he tries to make sequels. I mean, look at what happened with PoR.

I just don't trust him to make a good Demon Castle War game. I feel his style of game making would mess it up. He would put too much time into trying to come up with some "unique" gameplay style, and not enough into the rest.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 09:08:44 AM by Flame »
Laura and Gabriel arrive in the deepest cave of the castle and... they find IGA.

Offline e105beta

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #236 on: January 06, 2012, 01:44:17 PM »
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Awe c'mon --is it that hard to be nice?  jk ;-)

No its not. I just have a tendency to be blunt.

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While it's true Castlevania has declined since SotN, the handheld 2-D games maintained stable sales with the support of a very loyal fanbase.  The problem as I see it though is stagnation.  Think about it.  SotN and OoE were released nearly 12 years apart --but the graphics and overall design are so very similar, that a mainstream gamer could barely tell the difference.  Konami could have raised the bar years ago by putting a 2-D game like the DXC on a popular home console like the PS2 --instead they let Castlevania's 2-D games languish on the portables while pushing mediocre 3-D games on the consoles...

We can agree on stagnation, which is why I can't agree on "the highest standards of 2-D gameplay, graphics, and design."
I'm completely ambivalent on 2D vs 3D. If it's good, I'll like it, if its not, I won't, but demanding 2D (i.e. Sonic Fans) got us Generations, which, while an excellent game, feels dated and old fashioned on the Act 1 levels. In fact, the area where the game really excels is all of the improvements they made in the Act 2 levels

The handheld games also thrived on a loyal fanbase of people willing to buy anything as long as it resembled SotN, and the real reason IGA could get away with releasing so many was BECAUSE of the cheap production values and the recycled content. Only with a low budget could the games turn a significant profit off of 300,000 sales.

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Have you read the Mission Statement lately?  I know it's not perfect, but it has been completely rewritten once and further tweaked half a dozen times.  The word "demand" has not appeared in the mission statement in over 5 months, and most of the other abrasive language has been significantly softened or removed.  Reading comments like this I wonder why I even bothered.  Either you're not paying any attention or there's just no pleasing you.

Oh, I've read it. It still sounds demanding.

You used the parallel of your kids earlier, and that's not applicable here. Here, Konami has the money. Konami has the power. If you want Konami to make you something big and fancy, you need to come from a positive direction, praising previous efforts and supporting Konami to make more, because frankly, 300,000 fans, many of which probably not nearly as adamant as OA, are not going to move mountains.

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There is a distinction that needs to be made here.  Rejecting LoS as a reboot doesn't necessarily equate to hating the game.  Although that is sometimes the case, you need to understand that some Akumajo fans, while appreciating LoS, also see it for the unique IP it is.  Now that the fans have had a chance to digest LoS, their continued loyalty to the Castlevania brand remains to be seen.  If I were David Cox I'd be paying *very* close attention...

Never said anyone HATED LoS, but OA is going beyond "a future LoS game needs more Castlevania elements" like many, include myself, have said about LoS.

No, in rejecting LoS and responding with "Remake CV:III plz" you're essentially rejecting anything LoS or Konami did right because the overall game doesn't fit into your idea of what a Castlevania game should be.

And the problem with that is that the sales completely disagree with you.

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Konami already has a wealth of sales data, so they already have a good idea how large the Castlevania fanbase actually is.  But for all of their numbers, they don't hear the voice of the fans --OA is an opportunity for the fans to speak out and tell Konami what we want.  Once Konami actually hears that voice and acknowledges our desires, then it's up to them to do their homework, and then decide if they are willing and able to meet those needs.

That's what LoS was...

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Unfortunately.  It's just a matter of time before Konami overmilks their cash-cow and realizes what a bad idea it was to put so many eggs in one basket.  Reselling the same games every 2 years will not take MGS or Konami to a good place.

I highly doubt Metal Gear solid is going anywhere, and Kojima productions releases more than enough new titles, and the re-released titles are all released either a number of years later or to consumer bases which never got the chance to play the games before.

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Marketing and competition are major factors as well.

...yes? Your point?

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The 25th Anniversary was a central platform prominently featured in the Mission Statement.  The Metal Gear Solid comparison was just a bullet point on a propaganda piece.  But honestly, as a Castlevania fan, what's not to be jealous of?

Jealousy doesn't win people over. You have to understand, OA should be much like a pitch, and when pitching, game developers don't go into a producer studios saying "Yo, your last games sucked ass, and the fans deserve better, so we're going to remake a really old game and market it to 300,000 people with a budget that should be aiming for multi-millions."

Offline cecil-kain

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #237 on: January 06, 2012, 01:53:29 PM »
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There is difference in how you state your demands.

One thing is to ask: "Why don't you (Konami), please, consider making a game that will be based on previous (good) 2D outings of the series? We have some stats to back up that it could be profitable project."

I agree Koanmi deserves to be treated with professional courtesy, but they also deserve honest feedback as well.  As for using statistical evidence to make a case, you're forgetting a few things...

First, Konami doesn't release all of the relevant data to the public.  Although retail sales are routinely published, DLC sales are not --so we have no way of knowing the sales for games like Rebirth or Harmony of Despair.  Furthermore, none of the dollar revenues or production costs are published either, so there's no way for us to compare the profit margins of any Castlevania games.  For example --we know that LoS has sold 1.06 Million copies, but we don't any have data on the revenues produced by those sales.  And since we also don't know the production costs, there's no way to produce any kind of cost/revenue analysis to measure profit margins.  These figures would be central to any serious statistical discussion.  I'd love to compare the figures for SotN, the GBA games, the DS games, DXC, Rebirth, and HD --but I just don't have access to the data.

Secondly, even if Konami published all of the relevant data --OA doesn't have the financing to hire professional market analysts, so any statistical arguments would be an amateur endeavor.

And finally, it's not the place of the consumer to make these kinds of statistical arguments to begin with.  It's the consumer's role to provide the demand, and the business' role to provide the product.  The challenge here is simply making the business aware of what product is desired.

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And another is to shout: "Hey, Konami, give us 2D Demon Castle Wars HD and remake of CV3 and forget about LOS, because WE WANT IT, DAMMIT!!!"
See the difference?

Certainly.  I'll concede the very first Mission Statement had some inappropriate, demanding, and abrasive language without any context whatsoever, but you've given zero credit for the rewrite or any other concessions that have already been made over these past 6 months.  This comment also misrepresents OA's official position on LoS, and completely ignores the live and let live endorsement of a multiversal approach, which I have overstated numerous times throughout this topic.

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As others already said, only demands, epsecially if they are stated quite forcefully, wouldn't be enough to kickstart anything. Only if you have some people at Konami that will back you up. But it's likely not the case.

You're right.  OA needs an outpouring of fan support to show Konami that our demands are viable, and worthy of further analysis.  And like I had mentioned to Flame, Legends 3 had the concrete advantage of a sympathetic insider, and now that IGA has been "retired" from Castlevania, we don't really have that kind of advantage... 
 

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Or were reached, but not ultimately interested at all.

No.  OA's exposure has come primarily from the CVD, Facebook, Youtube, and to a much lesser degree --Rely on Horror, the Castlevania Syndicate, and just a handful of other forums (most of them foreign).  I know you can't see the Facebook or Youtube analytics, but I can assure you that about 90% of the fans that have visited our page or viewed our videos originate from the CVD, Facebook, or Youtube.  That was why I specifically cited those particular figures.  It should also be noted, that the 4000 estimate precludes impact of lurkers, the overlap of multiple exposures, and the repeated viewings of the videos.

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You need something to unite fans. And demands, especially that specific is not the way to do it. Besides, do you seriously believe that even if Konami listen to your ply, they will make the game exactly like you see it in your brain? I doubt it. So there is no neccessity to demand something that specific from them.

Are you still talking about the Demon Castle War and CV3?  Because I've already made my case that the hardcore fans want those particular games...  Or are you still talking about the quality demands?  Things like a "serious investment" "2-D on HD console" "highest standards of gameplay, graphics, and design" etc...

Well this gets back to the point I just made about the negotiation strategy.

I see.  So you believe we’re asking too much of Konami.  Fair enough.

Quite frankly, it would be naive to believe that Konami will do everything that we’re asking for --even if we had thousands of fans behind our cause.  But the fact is that by boldly put our demands on the table, we’ve raised the expectation and applied pressure that otherwise would not exist.

I don’t know if you have children...  But if I tell my daughters to fold 6 loads of laundry before bed (knowing full well they usually do 2 or 3) they may strive for the 6, but only get 4 or 5 done loads folded.  Have they failed to meet my demands?  Yes, but they haven’t failed to improve --and improvement was the real expectation all along.  And who knows, maybe those girls would surprise me by working their tails off and getting the 6 loads folded after all --the door is certainly open for that.

My point to you is this.  The demands are a starting point for a negotiation.  Excellent results never come from lowballing the expectations.

And furthermore, demanding the mediocre will guarantee mediocre results.


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Loyality is such thing that it could easily go away.

Loyalty by definition doesn't easily go away, but things like unwanted change, dishonesty, and being taken for granted are all *very* real threats to the loyalty in any relationship --business or otherwise.

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Especially if you demand something tailored to your own taste.

Your personalizing.  And not giving any consideration to what your fellow fans want.

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There is difference. MegaMan was like that for the last decade, this series practically breathes this trope. Castlevania never embraced this idea, except for few games that were tossed out of the canon. In general I couldn't remember any big Konami franchise that had several subseries going on at the same time (CV, Contra, MGS, SH).

That doesn't mean it can't be done.

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On note: last big MGS project wasn't released twice. And Peace Walker was rereleased for the new platform, so it not like it was released twice on the same console.

I was specifically referring to the Snake Eater example I posted a couple days ago --perhaps you missed it...

Let’s consider the example of Snake Eater.  Metal Gear Solid 3 had its original release way back in 2004, Subsistence in 2006, the Essential Collection in 2008, the HD Collection in 2011, and now the 3DS version is due in the next couple months.  This kind of saturation almost harkens back to how greedily Capcom exploited Street Fighter II back in the 90’s --and we all know how that eventually ended...

I suppose I could cite Sons of Liberty as well, but no matter --Snake Eater makes the point.
 
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There is difference between activity that could result in something and activity that could result in nothing. As far as I can say OA is not something that could make "a something good". But making Konami thing that old CV dans are obsessive group that lives in the past - could be a result. Besides I personally against ressurection of the 2D metroidvanias any soon. There was too many of them that offered too much of the same. I don't want CV fall into the self-repetition yet again, not after series seemingly more or less climbed out of that puddle of mud and moved on.


OA never specifically endorsed the Metroidvania format.  Regardless, this comment (like so many others) clearly reveals a bias against OA's old-school ideals --and I'm sad to say there's just no reasoning with personal biases.

Correction; Mega Man is textbook example of how to do a timeline successfully.

You've got in Mega Man, a franchise who's story successfully spans centuries.

Classic ->100yr-> X ->100yr-> Zero ->200yr-> ZX ---->undisclosed amount, possibly thousands----> Legends

There is only 1 other universe, that being the Battle Network universe, which goes Battle Network ->200yr-> Star Force

And there is one alternate timeline, which is Rockman Online, which seems to run parallel to the Zero series.

Castlevania does a timeline good too, buuuut not AS good. the Mega Man world, and everything in it consistently evolves with the time that passes. Specifically the technology within the story.

You're making a fair point here, but the continuity connections tend to be somewhat loose --with Classic, X, and Zero probably being the tightest of the bunch --meanwhile Legends is really another story altogether...  Megaman Classic has about as much in common with Legends, as Akumajo Dracula has in common with Lords of Shadow.

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The problem with having IGA involved is that he tries to come up with gameplay before story or atmosphere or anything. Which affects things a bit. Especially when he tries to make sequels. I mean, look at what happened with PoR.

I just don't trust him to make a good Demon Castle War game. I feel his style of game making would mess it up. He would put too much time into trying to come up with some "unique" gameplay style, and not enough into the rest.

Demon Castle War would probably work best as a Classicvania.  I for one was really surprised how well IGA's team reworked Rondo for the DXC --I'd really love an encore.

Offline Charlotte-nyo:3

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #238 on: January 06, 2012, 02:04:36 PM »
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The problem with having IGA involved is that he tries to come up with gameplay before story or atmosphere or anything. Which affects things a bit. Especially when he tries to make sequels. I mean, look at what happened with PoR.

I just don't trust him to make a good Demon Castle War game. I feel his style of game making would mess it up. He would put too much time into trying to come up with some "unique" gameplay style, and not enough into the rest.

Somehow I doubt IGA is as at the forefront in the design in the more recent games as people seem to give him credit for (positive or negative). He hasn't been the director of a Castleroid since SotN, just the producer, which acts as more of an overseer, frontman (which is partly why he gets so much of the praise/blame) and financial organizer rather than someone who really gets into the nitty gritty of the gameplay design choices. Now ironically given your statement, he has been credited with writing for HoD, AoS, DoS, and PoR. Not OoE though, which accounts for the somewhat different tone of its story.

No, in rejecting LoS and responding with "Remake CV:III plz" you're essentially rejecting anything LoS or Konami did right because the overall game doesn't fit into your idea of what a Castlevania game should be.

And the problem with that is that the sales completely disagree with you.

I'm not so sure LoS sold quite as well as your tone there seems to indicate, at least given the sales numbers I've seen. It certainly sold better than the 2D games; that's expected given its genre (3D action), but that was also to be expected given its budget. The 2D games generally have a small budget, while LoS had a medium sized budget. Those result in very different sales levels needed to declare success or failure. By all the metrics I've seen both LoS and the 2D games have gotten past the "success" lines. What they haven't done is go insanely far beyond that to the point where they're making money hand over fist like some of the really well known and big name games out this gen.

Offline Successor The Cruel

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Re: Konami Facebook team responding to Operation: Akumajo
« Reply #239 on: January 06, 2012, 02:56:29 PM »
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People should not act like they know for sure how Lords of Shadow sold unless they have reliable figures to back it up. There is a difference in how many copies are shipped to stores and how many are actually bought by consumers.

The completed listings on eBay, which I've found to be a decent measure of something's worth, tell me that Lords of Shadow can now be had at bargain bin prices (as low as $10, usually $15). For a game that was released a year and a few months ago, I'm not sure that is very promising. This generally means that there are more Lords of Shadow games out there than people want.

http://www.ebay.com/csc/i.html?_nkw=castlevania+lords+of+shadow&_in_kw=1&_ex_kw=&_sacat=See-All-Categories&_okw=castlevania+lords+of+shadow&_oexkw=&_adv=1&LH_Complete=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&_samilow=&_samihi=&_sadis=200&_fpos=Zip+code&_fsct=&LH_SALE_CURRENCY=0&_sop=12&_dmd=1&_ipg=50

I mean, hell. Order of Ecclesia is commanding and selling for more respectable prices than that thing, and it was a $30 handheld.

http://www.ebay.com/csc/i.html?_nkw=castlevania+order+of+ecclesia&_sacat=0&_sop=12&_dmd=1&LH_Complete=1&_odkw=castlevania+lords+of+shadow&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 03:09:13 PM by Successor The Red »

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