Topic: Castlevania Marathon by Sumac

[RichterB]

Now, I am not sure about everything, after watching video review for LOD, where reviewer said, that CV64 supposed to be an open ended game and for N64DD. But I think branch points were just for the storyline. If you played character according to his personality you received one ending, if you played against "his type" - another. It is similar to Contra Hard Corps, I think, where depending on your answers you could chose different routes and fight different bosses. In CV64 I think, everything was far more simplier and choices affected only endings and boss fights.
As example of such choice: I think in the scene with Reinhardt and Rosa you could choose not to save her, playing against Reinhardt's personality.

Speaking of old choices, I bet the Engagement Ring was another such item. It gave Carrie more power, but I bet if you wear it too long or versus Dracula that it would trigger the bad ending where she marries Malus, since it was against her personality to give in to her "power."

Same thing with the Contract, which you used to be able to carry around. Perhaps that speaks a bit to a larger game world. I do wonder where the Tower of Art and Tower of Ruin came from. It seemed pretty clear in early designs that there were only four branching towers.

I wonder where that 64DD statement's origin comes from, as well, and if it has any credence. Like you, I haven't heard another reference outside of that video. However, I do recall 64DD being the talk of the town in that era. Nintendo toyed around a lot with, I think, three Zelda expansions on 64DD, which eventually were abandoned and/or simplified into Majora's Mask and Ocarina of Time: Master Quest. Early interviews about CV64 talk about memory limitations being a problem, particularly in the sound department. The only hint that Castlevania 64 could have been prototyped for the 64DD was all the talk about finding Dracula, the night-and-day mechanics and moon phases, the idea of four characters with alternate choices, the idea of a boss-rush versus mode, and the mentioning of villagers. A lot of these things were kind of squeezed onto the cart in one form or another, though. About that last point, villagers really only appear in the Villa or deceased elsewhere--the information on them if you push the examination button keep referring to a "village." But I always took that to be a background story element rather than a place the player should be familiar with. I'm skeptical on the 64DD story.

About some areas being "as is," I've found a set of double doors in the Tower of Science's main gun/tube room, and there's nothing there that I recall. Just a dead end. Hmm...

Side note: There's a 1UP interview out there from a little while back with SotN's music composer who sort of states that SotN was intended as more of an experimental side game by a less proven studio, and that the N64 game was the next main game for the series. IGA has stated the opposite before, though. So, who knows? I wonder how long the N64 game was in development in terms of the conceptual/testing stages before the Dracula 3D trailer.

Lastly, I wonder what the Stake Sub-Weapon was for in some early screens? (Maybe the only way to beat vampire enemies?)

Anyway, I've taken this part of the discussion further than I meant to or than was necessary probably. Kind of ridiculous in a lot of ways, given how much we cannot know, and it's not like any new interviews will be done. I don't mean to put these games on a pedestal as perfect in conception or anything. I guess it just felt like things were still on a track I could get behind a good deal, though. It seems a turning point for the series, but it's all water under the bridge, so I shouldn't worry about it. I'll check out both of your posts, whenever they're done. No worries. Good to keep things in order.

[Sumac]

I think Engagement Ring appeared in the menu after Carrie received bad ending, like some sort of bonus item for the new game. I don't think it could trigger bad ending, more like to help new player, who previously got bad ending, achieve good one on the next playthrough. Actually this brings an interesting topic - could it be, that all playable characters had bonus items, they received after you completed game with ceratin ending...? Also, Engagement Ring clearly confirms, that Carrie's bad ending in the early version of the game was the same as in final version. Through this, it is possible to assume, that all endings in CV64 were taken from the old storyline.

I think Contract didn't triggered anything in terms of endings. Early previews hints, that Renon wroked pretty much the same as in the final version. You summon him and give him "something" in exchange for items. Now, "something" is most likely your soul. In old system it is described, that you gave him points for items. I think points somehow meant pieces of your soul (I know that ridicolous, but it's the best explanation possible with information on hand). Giving him more than 30 pieces of your soul, triggered battle with him in the final part of the game. However, it makes Gold collecting rather obsolete. At least from the old preview, it seems, that you exchanged "something" for items and Gold wasn't involved. Or maybe you exchanged items for "pieces of soul" and, also, should have enough Gold, but it's redundant. Either bartering items for soul or buying them, makes much more sense, then both of those things merged. Of course, it's possible, that developers haven't figured it out themselves and "points" system was a template. Besides, I don't see why it should have been cut, since it doesn't make mych difference from the buying items for the Gold, just different statistic involved. Most likely, they decided, that Gold was useless with the "points system" and replaced it with buying items. Also, I think, they also figured out, that having constant access to the merchant, kind of throws the game out of balance. Or maybe it was because initially the game should have been longer and thus constant access to the healing items was justified...

As for new Towers from LOD, they designs are clearly meant for LOD only, but maybe they should have been present in the original game as well, but with radically different designs. There is no way to be absolutely sure about it, sadly.

If you talk about double doors opened with Science Key 3, then there is some items, I think. The same thing exists in Tower of Execution.

I attempt to find something about CV64 for DD on Japanese sites, but so far no success. Japanese Wikipedia doesn't mention CV64 being developed for DD, as well as other sites I visited. Granted I haven't visited very much and I plan to continue search, but I doubt, that CV64 was actually in development for DD. Maybe only in conceptual stages. But the actual development was for the cart only. I think, that "Moon phases" was more or less something, that was only in imagination of developers. It would had make the game too complicated.

As for dead villagers - there is a thought: in early preview, producer of the game mentioned, that in CV64 you will be able to find items only in walls and bodies of the previous adventurers. Could it be, that villagers corpses, that you see in the game, could have been looted for items, like subweapons? It's fairly logical assumption and give corpses some meaning in the actual gameplay.

I think, that CV64 was meant to be the main Castlevania games, but rushed development and overwhelming success of the SOTN kind of spoiled all plans for the future of Konami and, somewhat, led to the cancelation of the Ressurection and rise of the IGA.

I too think, that stake subweapon, should have been used to finish off vampires.

I don't see nothing wrong with talking about this - such discussions give rise to the interesting ideas and allow to understand better, what developers had in their minds back then.

COTM review so far is not finished and I will serach for more information on Japanese sites. So, far I found one interesting Castlkevania fan-site called "We Love KCEK!!". It is fan-sire for the series as a whole, but have special section for KCEK developed entries. There are hilarious gallery with screenshots from CV64 / LOD, list of rumors about the game (confirming female design for Coller), interesting measurements of characters height and trivia section about some misteries in the game. For example, mirrors in the Villa shows not reflection, but a copy of the room, through dark filter. And this site has cute chibi-Carrie jumping from Water Dragon on the main page.

(click to show/hide)

Pictures were taken from gallery on that fan-site.

[Lelygax]

Can you share the link to this site please?
Also I didnt think that SOTN sucess has anything to do with Ressurection being cancelled.

[Sumac]

Can you share the link to this site please?
Also I didnt think that SOTN sucess has anything to do with Ressurection being cancelled.

Ah, sorry. I wanted to give link in the previous post, but forgot about it.
Here it is: KCEK Forever!!

I think Ressurection was the victim of everything, that happened in the few years prior to its cancelation: success of SOTN, failure of CV64 / LOD, failure of the Dreamcast, supposed miscommunication between US and Japanese divisions of Konami. All of this piled up and convinced Konami to halt the project, and let IGA has his way with the series for a time being.

[Lelygax]

Thanks for sharing, you plan to review Bloodletting and TGS Alucard Game too in a post? I know that theres not a real game to review, but it could be more like a bonus with Shin Dracula X, more like rumors and jokes. xD

[Sumac]

It's too late to review Bloodletting. If anything, it should have been done before SOTN, as this game was used as the basis for it. Besides, aside from very few rumors and two sprites, there is not much to speculate about. And there is even less information about Alucard TGS 07 game. So, I think none of this will receive their own articles.

[Dark Nemesis]

Sumac is back as a Shaft guost.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

Sumac thinks we're a clique of pretentious assholes.

"Your community aleady sick and will consume itself because of its own fanatism, overwhelming nostalgia and stupidity. There will be only 5-6 "yes-man" on the forum eternally discussing, which IGAvania was better and how big boobies Sypha has. Everyone with different opinions and desire to accept something different will be slowly eliminated or bored in that swamp. And this is already happening - LOS and MOF proved this more than anything.

What makes it the most funny: I've actually seen this once. On another Castlevania forum. And it was pathetic, believe me. But I guess for you, it better to be a king of desert with golliwogs, then not to be king at all. =)"

Why he would want anyone to post his stuff here of all places is beyond me.

I would advise you to not post your "friend'd's" stuff here any longer.

[The Great Reviewer]

Very good stuff. I like to see that there is another critic posting his reviews on the Castlevania community. Material is very objective. As it should be. Maybe I do not agree on some points. But they are very valid views.
Then, in terms of the subjective things from other opinions that Jorge said, I will not interfere, but my -209 negatives are an example that sometimes fans can be harsh with those who think objectively and in a different way than usual.
Maybe I'm thinking of leaving the community if this negative points not change. Bad scores, good scores, always I say whatever don't matter, always negative points. Not make up my mind yet, still. I will say.

[RichterB]

Well, it's sad to hear that there's been some infighting with regard to this thread. I think that the current "alternate" direction of Castlevania after years of sort of hit-and-miss with IGA has really divided the fandom, and the definition of what Castlevania "is" becomes harder to parse for each group, since each group wants their time and place in the games. I would think that there is a place for all voices, so long as there is respect and sympathy. I have very much enjoyed this thread by Sumac, finding it largely both constructive and informative for old-timers and newcomers alike.

So, now for these new posts, which I've been waiting for. I've got some more reading to do, though perhaps the previous posts have covered most of the N64 stuff in regard to my thoughts. But now for Circle of the Moon.

Circle of the Moon was the title that confirmed my Castlevania fandom for the new millennium. It was the first original post-2000 game, as I recall. I bought the GBA for it and got it on launch day. The art direction and style from previews really pulled me in. Nathan Graves is one of the coolest-looking whip-wielders in the franchise. It was the first "metroidvania-style" entry I played from start to finish, since I only played about a level of SotN at a friend's house prior to this. Honestly, Circle of the Moon totally pulled me in, and I couldn't get enough of it. I played through it pretty extensively the first time through, even completing the Battle Arena. But I never did find all those cards, which seemed sort of random to me as far as acquisition. The DSS Card system seemed fine to me, though it was criticized by some, IGA included, IIRC. The bosses of CotM were really striking, IMO. Zombie Dragons, that crazy goat monster, and Carmilla, were all really memorable. The selection of music was excellent, though, it was a bit limited, as you stated. Still, it's one of the best mixes of music selections over the years. The game was a nice mix of Classicvania and Metroidvania. I don't know that any other game has felt like it since. From a challenge and gameplay perspective, I like it better than SotN; but SotN's variety, scope, and visuals are better. Still, I am often inclined to say Circle of the Moon is the better game. Unfortunately, I find that I cannot replay Circle of the Moon--even in its clever alternate modes--without becoming bored. That's caused me to bump it down the list of favorites over the years. But then, I find I don't care to replay any of the Metroidvanias much. I do remember that when Harmony of Dissonance came out, I found myself sort of bored halfway through, which didn't happen with Circle of the Moon. The darkness of the GBA screen was a real pain for CotM when it first came out, but somehow myself and others managed back in the day. I like the spinning whip defense--simple, useful, but not overpowered. I could see that making a comeback at some point, and I'd be OK with that.

[Phoenix7786]

I find that I cannot replay Circle of the Moon--even in its clever alternate modes--without becoming bored. That's caused me to bump it down the list of favorites over the years.

With as much of Hugh as they did, I thought for sure he was going to be playable. They even gave him his own DSS set, and he has a good set of sprites already. I was SUPER pissed when I saw what the real "alternate" modes were. I thought they were an extremely lazy way to pad the game. For me, they really knocked this game down from the peg I was about to put it on.
Much like you though, I bought the GBA and CotM on launch-day, and I've never regretted it CotM is a fantastic Castlevania title--Hell a fantastic GBA title. I thought it was an excellent title to use as a launcher. I also remember taking the lampshade off of a lamp, and playing right next to the damned thing so I could see. That light made me sweat terribly, but it was worth it to see.

[The Great Reviewer]

The dividing of the fanbase have to do with people not accepting change and a different and very valid vision from spanish developers.
As say, this is a very interesting topic with very valid objective material from current critic.

[TheouAegis]

I accept change when it retains the core of the series. SotN veered away from the core, LoI returned to it (but Medusa keeps pissing me off, so I haven't finished it yet). I don't care what country makes a Castlevania game, if it's not Castlevania at the core then it's not Castlevania, period. There's not much CV about what MS made; decent games with decent stories (except MoF I guess), but had they taken away the "Castlevania" title it'd have been just another generic series and not gotten much lip service at all. They could have called it God Of War X and it wouldn't have changed anything, people would just be comparing it to GOW instead of CV in that case and probably hating on it for the same reasons. And Cox even said it's not Castlevania at its core, so by your diva's own admission it's not really Castlevania. I think it would have been better if they made part of the Bloodrayne saga.

[The Great Reviewer]

Never see the fanbase hate its current leader so much as Cox now, it's Castlevania you know, and it's called objectivity you know.
Not because the game is spanish would be excellent, could be american or japanese or from Rwanda, I do not care, objectivity dictates the games are excellent.
Expect great to Lords of Shadow 2 and doubts about MercurySteam will wipe out.

[crisis]

IGA has received a lot more hate during his tenure than Cox does now.

The difference is IGA was/is a lot more humble than Cox will ever be, amongst other things.