Topic: Castlevania from a game design & difficulty balance perspective.

[Abnormal Freak]

@Abnormal Freak - Don't misunderstand me pointing out DXX's flaws, or some of or all of the others doing so, as us pushing a crowd mentality that DXX sucks. I actually enjoy DXX very much. I just happen to, on a gameplay level, prefer Rondo more. DXX takes that cake for me in stage graphics and certain song tracks. And please don't call our posts condescending just because we're pointing out what we view as flaws in a game.

You misread. :p

[Dracula9]

You're getting snippy when there's no need to, Sinful. Make no mistake, I love DXX, but it has its faults and I'll always notice them. It's like watching a movie that's a remake of another movie. If you saw the original first, you'll compare the newer to the older. Same concept, but in DXX vs. Rondo. Rondo I like more because it's faster-paced but not over too quickly. I love games that play like that.

DXX I enjoy when I'm in the mood for a grind that's not necessarily long, but so ridiculously difficult that it feels like a long game. It's great for when I want something that'll make me shout profanities at a poorly-timed jump, or at an enemy being a cheap bastard and knocking me into a pit. Things like that.

As for a SNES cartridge not being able to support as many enemies as a CD-while this is completely true in the issue of available space, there are plenty of games for the SNES that can support many different enemies, techniques, etc. Just look at the Final Fantasies for the SNES. If a game can support hundreds of enemies and spells, I'd imagine it can support a skeleton swinging from a tree branch or a giant purple skull in a graveyard. There's also SCVIV(yep, totally went there), LTTP, the Kombats, Chrono Trigger, SoM, I could go on.

Actually, let me back a few of those up. I don't want to just name off games without my reasoning for them.

-The Mortal Kombats. Dozens of different characters with their own unique movesets. The movesets and their key combinations are widespread as it is. Add the AI into the mix and it skyrockets. I'd also like the mention Killer Instinct, mainly for its c-c-c-combo breaker system. It's a small little thing that opens up even more probabilities for the game.

-SoM, Trigger, Breath of Fire, FF4-6, basically ANY RPG game for the SNES has a vast amount of data in play. Obviously these vary from game to game, but there's the attack damage counters, spells and techniques, enemy types, the probability of a give enemy type to show up, the random battle probability where it applies, the Final Fantasy classic of stronger monsters appearing on the map after point X in the game, enemy and boss AI, different character classes, etc. There's a lot going on.

-LTTP. First off, I love this game. Anyways, it has roughly twelve major dungeons, each of which has its own unique boss and item, which requires more and more backtracking to acquire with each new dungeon. There's a shitload of stuff to do around the world, from Rupee-earning sidequests and minigames to secret powerups and items, and don't even get me started on the damn Heart Containers. There's also the aspect of two totally different worlds to explore, and the ability to shift between them. There's a good plenty of actions going in in LTTP and I would presume that they take some considerable space to pull off.

Anyway, the point is, while the SNES cartridge might not have the same disk space as a TG-16 CD, that by no means gives the SNES the inability to support enemy variety or other aspects of a given game(DXX in this particular case). It all boils down to what the producers, directors, whatever, choose to put into the game. There's the issues of time constraints, development hell, the possibility of staff loss due to everyday injury, sickness, etc., release dates getting ever-closer, public announcements and advertising, any meetings with carriers and advertisers that may happen, bug and beta testing to the moon and back, etc. All of these things can truly make or break what a game contains(see Soul Reaver). While I can't and won't try to say for certain whether these forced some cutbacks in DXX, I can say that it's NOT the SNES cartridge's fault for the game lacking what is does.

Also, Romanian? Nice language. I wish I knew it.

You misread. :p

I had a feeling I did. It was one of those "one-or-the-other" risks. I just took the wrong one. It happens.

[Sinful]

@ Dracula9

- Sorry for being snippy, but it's to much fun to joke around and poke fun in a light hearted way. If this offends, I understand, but come, I mean no harm, and it helps me keep sane + puts a smile on my face. Life never has to be taken to seriously otherwise you'll age much faster, have more health problems, and end up a nervous wreck. ... Anywho, your talking about likes and dislikes again, forget about this sort of talk. Think design and difficulty (ie. I'm surprised no mentioned the beautifully designed and balanced bridge in Rondo's last level yet as a rebuttal? Is this not amazing design that's beautifully balanced?... Oh wait, don't tell me this is cheap too!!! * head explodes*)

- so you think getting knocked back into a pit is a flaw? And you think the knockback in classic vania games are flawed too then, right? Wrong, is what I think. And maybe this is why many can't seem to agree with me on this topic? These aren't flaws, they are done intentionally. If they didn't have they knockback affect, they would of had to of come up with another way of making the game more challenging (ie. the Japanese version of C1 added the ability to remove knockbacks to make the game easier instead of removing it completely. Konami is then well aware of it, yet refuses to remove it due to them liking to balance the game around it  ), thus changing the game too much and possibly make it less fun then what we know classic vania games to be? This is why I don't ever wish or another Super Castlevania whip anywhere you want game that everybody seems to want (so yeah, no wonder no one can see it my way in this topic). You see, to balance Super C4 with that whip would change classic vania way too much, and probably for the worse, if not better? If for the better, it would probably be too different to be Castlevania? ie. would you want Super C4 without the ability to attack through walls? I sure wouldn't... hey, what do you guys think about no control jumps? I actually prefer them over control (SC4) and slight control (Rondo/XX). I think this simplicity is beautiful and still provides enough depth, if not more (but the beauty is in simplicity while still being deep. Remember this, as it's the key to the best and tightest designed games). But you know what, I bet you any money most see this as nothing but a flaw/step backwards and can't appreciate how well it works in games like Bloodlines (Man, if people see so many things as a step backwards, why are they still playing 2D games, etc, etc?).

- yes, many games can support more enemies variety, etc. But for XX they decided for a lot of that space to got to graphics. Which most don't like anyways. Bad move? I think so, but that's were your space went (and maybe some bad compression too?). When you look at Super C4, you'll see a lot of tiny blocks repeated over and over a thousand times. Plus Super C4 doesn't seem to use more colours then 80 on screen (like most first gen SNES games + most SNES games still don't come close to reaching 250 colours on screen during gameplay. Just like most Genesis don't come very close to 64. But this is what everybody believes ), so I'd imagine that saves a ton of image space too?... also sound can take up a ton of space too... But yes, you do have the right concern for this having been handled poorly, but I assure you they probably aimed to please in the graphics and sound area since most wanted that around that time. Ironically, most see this as a much worse looking game then even Super C4. Wow, wow, wow, wow. Doesn't it just blow you brain up?...  FF games are totally different games and make for a poor comparison to XX. The only game you mentioned close to XX is Super C4. The rest are RPGs.

- I'm not gonna break down how all them games you mentioned were able to save on so much space, yet cram so much. It's pretty obvious to me though, as I think about space all the time... hey, did you know Bloodlines was the same size as Super C4 (8 Mbit), yet still seems to have less then that game too? Wrack your brains around this one. ... hey, here is a quick example. Look at Donkey Kong Country series for SNES. Very in-depth graphics, right? Well, notice there aren't that many levels theme, and how they repeat over and over? This is one example on saving space. If you want more info, start a new topic on it and many should be able to answer you more... if not, PM me and I'll jump in the topic to see what I can do?

- yeah, you can tell Romanian is a nice language without knowing it? But then I guess if you know a language, it wouldn't sound bad at all then?


So yeah, tell me what you guys think about the jumps in the classic vania game + the knockbacks and their relation to game/difficulty design. As talking about this may reveal a lot? Because it seems we need to break down things to the very core?



@ Abnormal Freak

Hey, I have to ask. You apparently love XX, yet there isn't one area of the game you seem fond of (graphics, design/difficulty balance, player controls, etc. etc.). So, why7 Do you love this game? Are you like the Nintendo Nerd and actually like playing shitty games more the good games? What's your angle? And who's baby is that? I'll buy it.

[Sinful]

Man, you guys aren't even trying to rebuttal me properly. I just realized while playing the X68000 game on Chronicles that every Castlevania game has saves, and that I forgot that passwords are a type of saves too (because I never use them). So when I said that you had to start the game over in XX from dying with the key, I was wrong. If you write down the password, you can just start the level over np (I assume the game keeps track of the key? If not, you can just start from previous level. Still not near as bad as starting over).


Anyways, I played the remake version of X68000 on Chronicles, and realized that it didn't have knock backs. Will, this upset me greatly. So I went back to the original. And man, you guys don't want to play this game because it's a BROKEN CHEAP BUTT MESS!!!! (kidding  ) But seriously, that's what I wanted to think when I got the the raft ride and couldn't get past it using the same tactics as the remake. I kept getting knocked back into the drink!  Luckily I decided to use a continue and press on and see what's there to learn to pass that? And wouldn't you know it that there was another very affective solution to beating that part? Jumping was the key. Wow, what a very well designed section and I to think I never would of known it had I not played the un-stripped down version.

So yeah, if you guys think XX is cheap, don't play this game in it's original form (maybe even remake too?). And for that matter, forget about playing many NES games too (Castlevania included). Start with the SNES/Genesis and forward (Sega themselves designed some geniusly balanced games Pico Drive. I think you'll greatly approve ).


Well, after using a second continue on the third level, I called it quits for today. What a fun game. (Though I've had enough for today >_>)

[Abnormal Freak]

The X68000 game is awesome, and unlike XX, it's very solidly designed. There's nothing cheap about it. :p It offers a challenge that's legitimate.

And DXX really isn't difficult; I don't know why it seems to have gotten a reputation for being hard.

What I like about DXX are a lot of things. It isn't a terrible game, just flawed. The platforms and level designs (structurally speaking) may often times be poorly planned out, but it's still fun to hop all around them, and likewise hitting enemies despite their oftentimes haphazard placement. The graphical style is pretty even if sometimes there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of content or depth. (Compare the spaciousness and detail of SCVIV's library and note how DXX has nothing close to that level of immersion.)

The music kicks ass, but that's because the original game's score kicks ass—and I personally don't think any of the SNES versions are better than the redbook originals, but they're awesome SNES arrangements regardless, and the new tunes of the game are great also.

Its controls aren't broken by any means—it still essentially controls the same way as Rondo—it just feels less finely tuned than the PC Engine game does.

And in the end, it's Castlevania, and not just any Castlevania but one of the old style ("Classicvania"). I love ALL of those games and I don't think anybody could ever make one which dissatisfies me greatly. The Adventure ReBirth is one of the most fun newer games I've played in the last few years, and I'd love to see more old style games in the series. I enjoy the "Metroidvanias" too, especially SOTN which is one of the best in the series, but most of the rest just leave me feeling kind of empty in the long run, even if I enjoy playing them. They ain't the old mostly-linear, action platforming style, which I enjoy the most.

If ever anyone were to make an open-ended Metroidvania with Classicvania controls and a fucking whip-cracking Belmont as the protagonist, I'd be all over that. Bring back the sometimes difficult but satisfyingly fun jumps, the knock-backs, the subweapons, ditch the RPG system (leveling up, equipping) and floaty controls—just have a lovely castle with mega-pretty graphics, great tunes, fantastic level designs not seen since SOTN, have the old style of gameplay, and make it for a console, and I'd be in paradise.

[Sinful]

Yes! Someone read one of my supper long posts and enabled opening quotes in knew tabs! Thank you mystery mod!

The X68000 game is awesome, and unlike XX, it's very solidly designed. There's nothing cheap about it. :p It offers a challenge that's legitimate.

Yes, it does seem very well designed, but have you read some of the reviews on Game FAQ's? I recall some guy saying "That's not smart design, that's stupid design!" ... lol, so I took it out of context. It was in regards to enemies taking too much damage to increase difficulty in original mode, which he does have a point. But he's still blindly raged on the game not to give original mode the chance it deserves and see it's beauty... Plus I see nothing wrong with developers increasing damage enemies hand out if the game is designed well enough to be possible to complete with no damage at all... besides, this is how the NES Castlevania games were done too.

And DXX really isn't difficult; I don't know why it seems to have gotten a reputation for being hard.

I agree too very much. It's one of the very few classic Castlevania games I've beat. (Yes, I haven't beat many at all >_>) It's an example of people being blinded by rage towards hating this game as to not give it the chance it deserves. And because of that they never seen that the game wasn't that hard at all and they fell into the trap of labling the game lame because it's too hard along with whatever else bothers them.

What I like about DXX are a lot of things. It isn't a terrible game, just flawed. The platforms and level designs (structurally speaking) may often times be poorly planned out, but it's still fun to hop all around them, and likewise hitting enemies despite their oftentimes haphazard placement. The graphical style is pretty even if sometimes there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of content or depth. (Compare the spaciousness and detail of SCVIV's library and note how DXX has nothing close to that level of immersion.)

The music kicks ass, but that's because the original game's score kicks ass—and I personally don't think any of the SNES versions are better than the redbook originals, but they're awesome SNES arrangements regardless, and the new tunes of the game are great also.

Its controls aren't broken by any means—it still essentially controls the same way as Rondo—it just feels less finely tuned than the PC Engine game does.

And in the end, it's Castlevania, and not just any Castlevania but one of the old style ("Classicvania"). I love ALL of those games and I don't think anybody could ever make one which dissatisfies me greatly. The Adventure ReBirth is one of the most fun newer games I've played in the last few years, and I'd love to see more old style games in the series. I enjoy the "Metroidvanias" too, especially SOTN which is one of the best in the series, but most of the rest just leave me feeling kind of empty in the long run, even if I enjoy playing them. They ain't the old mostly-linear, action platforming style, which I enjoy the most.

If ever anyone were to make an open-ended Metroidvania with Classicvania controls and a fucking whip-cracking Belmont as the protagonist, I'd be all over that. Bring back the sometimes difficult but satisfyingly fun jumps, the knock-backs, the subweapons, ditch the RPG system (leveling up, equipping) and floaty controls—just have a lovely castle with mega-pretty graphics, great tunes, fantastic level designs not seen since SOTN, have the old style of gameplay, and make it for a console, and I'd be in paradise.

Wow, I agree with everything except that I really don't like Legends at all. It doesn't have any signs of classic Castlevania in just about every category. So, so far to me I don't count that with the classic Castlevania games... But you also said that's your least fav vania game, so    we're still in agreement, I guess?

Rebirth I just messed around with yesterday for a bit, and I too am blown away. Which is very surprising because I wasn't that impressed with Gradius Rebirth, and the very little I've played of Contra Rebirth (up to the third stage)... Though I still could be wrong about the other Rebirth games as I still need to play them more? But by comparison, this so far seems like the best handled Rebirth by far... I should check out what everybody else thinks about it? (I love reading about others thoughts... even though I mostly don't agree )








So wow again, we can see eye to eye on everything else, but not this topic?

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

The "Arrange" mode of Castlevania Chronicles PS1 has no knockbacks.  It's essentially an "Easy Mode" with a fresh coat of paint on a few graphics.
If you play the "Original Mode", you get the knockbacks back.

I'm fond of the graphical style and comic book color palette that DraculaXX used.
I'm fond of the options in terms of locales and characters that Rondo used.

Ideally, I'd like a hybrid with items from both games, but that ain't happening unless someone hacks DraculaXX into having Rondo-styles changes (and that's tough because I believe DraculaXX uses some strange cart compression from what I have heard).

Rondo's great for what it had to work with.  the PC-Engine is nice with its CD and all but it wasn't a true 16-bit machine (from what I've read).  I think if they could have ported the Rondo game to SNES they probably would have, but probably had issues with porting things so they just went and made a new version.

I'm not arguing for either side of this... debate (?), I am fond of both games.  I got my SNES Cart and my DraculaXChronicles PSP game and my Wii Virtual Console Rondo.  I'm happy.

[Sinful]

Rondo's great for what it had to work with.  the PC-Engine is nice with its CD and all but it wasn't a true 16-bit machine (from what I've read).  I think if they could have ported the Rondo game to SNES they probably would have, but probably had issues with porting things so they just went and made a new version.

Yeah, the issues was probably "It's not worth the extra cartridge space cash for something that might not sell too well?" But again, I'm much happier with a new classic vania game instead (there aren't that many classic vania games. If it wasn't for XX, I would of been starving way more... but of course you fans that prefer Metroid vania games don't see this of a problem though).

And yes, XX could have been done better without a doubt. And they certainly could have better managed the cartridge space they had better too (not compression wise)... so wait, if the compression technique is really complex, do you think it's possible due to them having a tough time making it fit? (this of course was always a problem during the cart days too for everybody anyways)


Oh, and trust me on this. The PC-Engine alone might not of been up to scratch to match with true 16-Bit SNES, but the Super CD PC Engine that Rondo runs off of most certainly should be, if not more capable. Heck, the first time I seen pics of Rondo, I though it looked like an Arcade game, so I though it must of ran off some powerful computer (PC-Engine CD also sounding like a PC to me). Man, was I shocked when I found out it was a Turbo Graphics! Plus the main problem with the PC-Engine alone was the RAM problem. So most Hue Card games had to be designed to stream data off it instantly or almost instantly. But the Super CD Card eliminates this as a major problem big time.


To me, they could have very easily helped to solve Rondo's problem by adding more enemies (& other tricks Castlevania games used to make the games harder) for a higher difficulty level or loop(s). Why doesn't Rondo have an extra difficulty level? All other Castlevania games around that time did? Heck, you can't even handicap yourself with by not upgrading your whip. Sigh, wish they weren't only focused on style so much. ... Does the PSP game have an extra difficulty level(s)? (Though I think the game seems harder then the original as is already)

[Abnormal Freak]

Actually, I forgot about Haunted Castle when I called Legends my least favorite CV. :p Ive gotten pretty far and intend to beat it, but that's such a difficult task because, well...it's not fun enough to make me wanna play well. :/

Contra ReBirth is awesome. Give it a shot.

[RichterB]

Dracula XX--couldn't resist jumping in for a sec.

This entry is high up there on my favorite Castlevanias and, like Sinful, I found it superior to Rondo.

To be clear, XX doesn't have as big of a "scope" as Rondo, but it's a tighter "game" with more traditional challenges like CV 1-4. The Dracula fight is one of the hardest (and most unique) in the series until you learn the correct attack strategy; but even then it requires precision. And "precision" in the name of the game. This game has a learning curve like the older Castlevanias, where you have to plan ahead on jumps and attacks. It feels more satisfying when you get all the timing and enemy placement down. And finding and getting through the alternate routes is rewarding.There are fewer hostages, but they're harder to save and it means more to save them, since not only the ending, but stage progression and boss choices alter. Most importantly, there's no "turning back" like in Rondo without starting from the beginning. In other words, there are consequences. My biggest problem with Rondo is that it is so forgiving and loose. The way the alternate paths are arranged feels like you're cheating the game--kind of like warp zones in Mario. Like when you find Dogether in the swamp level in Rondo, it just makes for an abrupt ending to a level that's hardly had time to develop. A lot of the levels just seem so rushed to me. IE: Compare Rondo's pirate ship to Castlevania III's.

People often complain about the progression of levels in XX, but Rondo makes the same sins, if they even can be called that. The screen transition thing: Rondo's Chapel, for just one example, loops you to the right side of the screen when you are traveling left if you go through the exit instead of the chain elevator at the top/end of the stage.

A few random notes on XX:

*The cross item crash is more tasteful and useful--zigzagging tons of boomerang-crosses across the screen.

*It has a drawn map like the older Castlevanias, as opposed to Rondo's blackened squares and lines, creating a more natural sense of progress.

*Death is a lot harder and more at home at the top of the clock tower.

*Sunken Water Temple is one of my favorite stages in the series.

*Unique visual art style, too, that's sort of like water colors, and it doesn't rely as much on old-fashioned "blocks/tiles/black backgrounds," making it more organic.

*There are neat visual effects, as well, like 3D gears and transparent/warping flames.

*The soundtrack, while it largely borrows from Rondo, is a much better mix with richer sounds.

Sinful, Contra Rebirth is OK, but it's not as tight as some of the older Contras; particularly in design (you can't get extra guys). Contra 4 for DS is the better game for recent entries. I have a high opinion of Castlevania The Adventure Rebirth. Play it on Hard Mode for the best results of strategic game design.

The Castlevania Chronicles PS1 game, either mode, it's a mixed bag for me. There are things I like, but I certainly don't find myself saying I love this entry.

[BingleGod]

When people complain about DracX's levels' progression, it's not coming from a perspective of uniqueness but frequency. Which is to say, yes, Rondo -- and others, such as Bloodlines (e.g. Tower of Pisa) -- has inexplicable transitions, but DracX does it more often, and this is augmented by the stages' smaller sizes and poor development of settings. Look at this map of stage 3. There are about four thematic decisions, here (castle wall/inner quarters/underground waterway/upper arcade), but the transitions offer no unity in either graphic or level design. This is why I don't buy the argument that DracX's more illustrative map is the deciding factor in describing player process. The map is a reductive abstraction; what really matters are the specifics of the levels themselves, because they are the spaces that you are interacting with on a performative basis.

Sidenotes:
- Why is Death more at home at the top of the clock tower? Because a few of KCET's Metrovania titles had a similar placement? I'll take a Death fight that happens in a special spot over one that's been done a few times since.
- DracX's background art may be qualified as "more organic", but this isn't an intrinisic boon. Why can Rondo's deliberately drawn graphics can be reduced to a "reliance"?
- While defining "richness" in a sonic context is subjective, I think there is a general agreement on its musical implications. In this popular sense, you're probably wrong about DracX's mix having "richer sounds." It has the same problems with equalization that so many other SNES titles do.

[Sinful]

RichterB, you have no respect! HOW DO I GIVE THE MAN RESPECT!!!! This man is beautiful. As he brought up many other good points I thought about too! (I need to give a few other this too if it's within my powers to do so)

Dracula XX--couldn't resist jumping in for a sec.

This entry is high up there on my favorite Castlevanias and, like Sinful, I found it superior to Rondo.

To be clear, XX doesn't have as big of a "scope" as Rondo, but it's a tighter "game" with more traditional challenges like CV 1-4. The Dracula fight is one of the hardest (and most unique) in the series until you learn the correct attack strategy; but even then it requires precision. And "precision" in the name of the game. This game has a learning curve like the older Castlevanias, where you have to plan ahead on jumps and attacks. It feels more satisfying when you get all the timing and enemy placement down. And finding and getting through the alternate routes is rewarding.There are fewer hostages, but they're harder to save and it means more to save them, since not only the ending, but stage progression and boss choices alter. Most importantly, there's no "turning back" like in Rondo without starting from the beginning. In other words, there are consequences. My biggest problem with Rondo is that it is so forgiving and loose. The way the alternate paths are arranged feels like you're cheating the game--kind of like warp zones in Mario. Like when you find Dogether in the swamp level in Rondo, it just makes for an abrupt ending to a level that's hardly had time to develop. A lot of the levels just seem so rushed to me. IE: Compare Rondo's pirate ship to Castlevania III's.

Yeah, when you when you find Dogether in the swamp, that really upsets me as the alternate levels so far seem to be my more preferred levels? And this just cuts a massive chunk of the level! Same with level 2'. Once you go on that ship for the alternate level, WHAM! You've just missed out on half of a level for a mini game. Same thing with the raft ride. Dang, all the alternate levels are bogus now. Sigh. ... The only level I really enjoy from the regular route is "Stage 2: Entrance To Castlevania." ... "Stage 4: Inner Halls Of Castlevania" is my least fav level. It looks so bland and the same throughout. ... I think my most fav level is "Stage 5': Hidden Docks" So nice, long, varied (even though is repeats backgrounds), challenge seems to be among the best in this game so far (it's like this is this game's loop 2?), and it's got my fav tune playing! Only too bad you have to of beaten the game to reach it (I just wiped my files to start over and got reminded of this ).

People often complain about the progression of levels in XX, but Rondo makes the same sins, if they even can be called that. The screen transition thing: Rondo's Chapel, for just one example, loops you to the right side of the screen when you are traveling left if you go through the exit instead of the chain elevator at the top/end of the stage.

Man, even Super Castlevania has some weird transition. Like you exiting to the left after the rotating room, and end up going right in a totally different area next (the spinning like being in a barrel room... and how does room fit in with the rest of the level? It doesn't. They just had a special affect and needed it to add it somewhere).

And yeah, that and that whole chapel is like that, as none of the drops line up at all properly... I also wish when you drop in the earliest part that there were some enemies. But I'll forgive it since it may of been due to technical reason? ie. it could be a load screen for all I know? Luckily I attempt to think about things before I bash, unlike most. ie. "Why isn't the Super Castlevania whip in all the other Castlevania games? This is stupid. There is no reason why it shouldn't. The game sucks. I'm not even gonna bother to give it a chance anymore. Besides, it's on a poo system like the Genesis. With Poo graphics and sounds. Thank goodness I was raised with only a SNES and I know best. Derp, derp. " ... But I'm only human and screw up too sadly like everybody else.

*It has a drawn map like the older Castlevanias, as opposed to Rondo's blackened squares and lines, creating a more natural sense of progress.

Man, this is one of the biggest problems I have with gaming; When they don't add a decent map. Why the heck doesn't Rondo have it! They done everything else style over substance, why not this too? It's robs it of soooooo much imagination. They even did a lame job at fixing this for the PSP release version. So yeah, the maps in games like XX, SC4 (well, before they got lazier with the in the castle map at least), and CIII are some of my most favourite things about these games without a doubt. ie. Super Mario World 2 to me sucks because of it's stupid, very stupid, attempt at a map. Don't matter that the gameplay is sound. It's ruined to me. ... Same with all the more recent Mario games. After all these years they can't top what was done in Mario 3 & 4? Jerks  ... this is why I hate Miyamoto for being only concerned with gameplay.

*Sunken Water Temple is one of my favorite stages in the series.

Mine too! Let's be best friends!

*The soundtrack, while it largely borrows from Rondo, is a much better mix with richer sounds.

I went back and forth on this one. Haven't paid enough attention to it yet. But I do recall the first time I played level five in the SNES game. I was blown away by that tune (I was in awe for quite some time. And it was all that was on my mind.... I didn't even care that I was so busy to properly pay attention to them jumping flees as they were murdering me over and over, because that song left me in pure bliss )... and then when I played the Turbo game, I was was kinda let down by that tune, then I thought it might of sounded better? ... so yeah, my whole comparisons on which game sounds better was based of one track. Besides, i find you don't know your fav tunes until you listen to an entire album enough. and I haven't done this yet.

One thing is for sure, is that I miss all the non-red book and tunes of gaming before... with the only exception here and there being CD gaming for the PC-Engine CD and Sega CD (basically olden days stuff, when gaming music sounded like gaming and not like an opera).

But it's nice to hear from someone who doesn't only or mostly like the Rondo soundtrack just because it's on CD and has to be superior. Thus this kinda of talk will help others from being brainwashed that the CD tracks has to be the best too and marching in a straight line like a number or brainless soldier.
 

Sinful, Contra Rebirth is OK, but it's not as tight as some of the older Contras; particularly in design (you can't get extra guys). Contra 4 for DS is the better game for recent entries. I have a high opinion of Castlevania The Adventure Rebirth. Play it on Hard Mode for the best results of strategic game design.

The Castlevania Chronicles PS1 game, either mode, it's a mixed bag for me. There are things I like, but I certainly don't find myself saying I love this entry.

Yeah, from playing the first 3 Contra levels of Rebirth in comparison to the classic games, something felt terribly off. But I never fully trust first impressions. I have Contra DS as well (only my brother has the DS these days). The problem I found with this one was the very small DS D-pad. So I barely payed it because of it. But I hear great things about it in comparison to the classics and Rebirth one... Hard mode for Castlevania Rebirth?! That's a great idea! lol (But it just seems like a really great game and would be a same to not make the great experience last for as long as possible).

Castlevania Chronicles PS1 game is a mixed bag for you for in either mode! I'll just pretend I didn't hear that for the sake of entering the game with my best mood mode on as to give the game the best chance it deserves, just in case it may end up being one of my fav?

When people complain about DracX's levels' progression, it's not coming from a perspective of uniqueness but frequency. Which is to say, yes, Rondo -- and others, such as Bloodlines (e.g. Tower of Pisa) -- has inexplicable transitions, but DracX does it more often, and this is augmented by the stages' smaller sizes and poor development of settings. Look at this map of stage 3. There are about four thematic decisions, here (castle wall/inner quarters/underground waterway/upper arcade), but the transitions offer no unity in either graphic or level design. This is why I don't buy the argument that DracX's more illustrative map is the deciding factor in describing player process. The map is a reductive abstraction; what really matters are the specifics of the levels themselves, because they are the spaces that you are interacting with on a performative basis.

Hmm, why can't you see the big bright side to this? It adds a ton of variety to the levels + this game has a map to strengthen it's levels' progression. So I don't see level progression as a problem at all in this game. ... You mean to tell me you love that boring looking Stage 4: Inner Halls Of Castlevania in Rondo for always looking like the same bland level throughout?

[BingleGod]

Hmm, why can't you see the big bright side to this? It adds a ton of variety to the levels + this game has a map to strengthen it's levels' progression. So I don't see level progression as a problem at all in this game. ... You mean to tell me you love that boring looking Stage 4: Inner Halls Of Castlevania in Rondo for always looking like the same bland level throughout?

You are using one example from another game and acting like it's proof of cognitive dissonance. I do agree that Rondo's inner halls are fairly tepid and the most uninteresting of the game where visuals are concerned (even if may be argued that this drab monotony is relevant to the prison theme), but this doesn't translate to congratulations for DracX. I think it's a mistake to see DracX's schizophrenia and claim it as a victory for variety; to me, that is overlooking nuance in anticipation of a preconceived, preferential conclusion. It takes more vision and talent to start an idea and see it through permutations than it does to throw spots of disparate ideas together and call the result cohesive through virtue of it all being in the same bag. But, even with that being said, Castlevania is full of transitions that are minimal yet successful; Rondo, for example, moves from a chapel to a cave quite effortlessly just through the barrier of a doorway, a continuation of a similar palette, and having most of the stage be set against darkness.

[RichterB]

Sinful:

Glad to be of service. Hey, Dracula XX is not flawless, but like I said, it's definitely one of my favorites, and I find its quirks charming. As far as the music, check out the difference in the stage 1 themes and the water temple/pirate ship levels; I don't know how, but the SNES has a few extra layers in bass and percussion.

...And I have no idea why Death feels more at home on a Clock Tower to me...but he does. lol. In all fairness, I did play XX before Rondo. But I'm one of the later old-school gamer generations who came up with the original trilogy and IV. And when I experienced Dracula XX, that's around the time I realized I am definitely more than a casual fan of the series. Then again, I really enjoy the first two GB games--that includes the original Adventure--and feel to this day that the Nintendo 64 entries were the proper direction for the series in 3D. (Now, I remember being excited for Rondo, and seeing tons of interesting screens over the years; but it just didn't live up to the "popular line" that XX was a cheap knockoff when I did play it. It's the game I keep trying to come back to to be excited, but it comes off very "casual," and more flash, less substance--like you can feel the transformation toward the more inane gameplay of the Castleroids. I just found Rondo feeling a little ragtag itself, despite my love for its attempt to capture the multi-paths of CVIII, and some of its nice stage visual themes. The boat ride is something that is very "throwaway." Cool, *especially* in the 3DCG PSP version, but pretty pointless in terms of gameplay. It could have been more involved, like, say, Stage 2 of Super Ghouls N Ghosts on SNES. I mean, I know XX seems quirky, but the repeating boss rooms you suddenly pop into in Rondo certainly don't match level motifs more often than not. If we're being so particular, isn't that frequent occurrence in Rondo a bit jarring?

And I know Castlevania IV has game-breaking mechanics that make it a bit more casual...and yet, I find it more satisfying than Rondo, as well. CV-IV is high up there for me. It and XX are an amazingly entertaining yin and yang for SNES. Basically, in no order, II, III, IV, XX, Bloodlines, 64/LoD, Adventure, Adventure Rebirth, and Belmont's Revenge are my favorites. Presently, if pressed, I'd say that III, IV, and XX are fighting for spots in the top 3, with Bloodlines and Belmont's Revenge probably close behind.

I don't mean to turn you off to CV Chronicles. It's solid, all and all. It just didn't thrill me, overall. It's grown on me a little...but it was a little bland in some regards. I will say that Arrange Mode is a lot easier than Original Mode, which I've finally gone back to after a while. I think the challenge of Original Mode is more satisfying. There are some stages that take some serious trial and error, but they don't have as much fun in doing so as some other Classicvania entries. (Obviously, Arrange Mode's revised music and sprites are more appealing, though).

The thing about Adventure Rebirth, and few people mention this, is that the level designs change depending on the difficulty setting!!! Therefore, the genius in the game design (which involves elements along the lines of Dracula XX) only shine through in Hard Mode, IMO.

Contra Rebirth is still a fun romp, but it doesn't feel like they totally understood the franchise as much as they did Castlevania in the Rebirth line. Looking past the glaring issue of earning extra lives (which is the whole point of blasting as many baddies as you can), Level 3 has some major hit/platform detection issues. Nevertheless, I find it amusing. Contra 4 DS is a little "familiar," but it hits all the right buttons of the 16-bit era of Contra nearly pitch-perfect. There is supposedly 2 new Contras in the works.

[Sinful]

Man, RichterB, you speak with such elegance or lack of a better word. You should of jumped in this topic a long time ago and put an end to it long ago. I mean dang, how do you even begin to rebuttal what you've just said? I'm speechless myself, and you've made me look up to you and your tastes in the classic vania games you've listed as your fav very much now. Since I'm new to this series, I've still got a lot to learn as to what I'll like best in the end?

It's the game I keep trying to come back to to be excited, but it comes off very "casual," and more flash, less substance--like you can feel the transformation toward the more inane gameplay of the Castleroids.

It's funny that you mention this, because I just had this thought that the Castleroids sucked because they followed Rondo instead of the other games in the series. Since for some reason I have it in my head that Rondo is one of IGA's favourite, if not most fav, classic vania game... oh, and I guess SotN is a sequel to Rondo too or something too?... So yeah, strange to hear you say it, but yeah, it's exactly the feeling I get too.

and feel to this day that the Nintendo 64 entries were the proper direction for the series in 3D.

I've heard this from elsewhere too. But now that you say it, I'm much more convinced.

Never tried these games, but when I do, which one should I start with and what character for the best experience? (Well, the whip guy for sure for the first game I'd imagine, but he has to be unlocked in the second I think?)

Then again, I really enjoy the first two GB games--that includes the original Adventure--

I don't see at all why Adventure warrents so much hate at all outside of a bit of difficulty which seems pretty reasonable to me? Especially considering it's length. It's like people really don't want to put any effort into gaming anymore?

I don't mean to turn you off to CV Chronicles. It's solid, all and all. It just didn't thrill me, overall. It's grown on me a little...but it was a little bland in some regards.

Nah, actually I just played for a very brief bit more just before this post. Made it past the second half of stage 3 (the crystal part), and into stage 4. And it's in this stage that I seen... well let's just say something felt off? I need to play more and see what happens and make sure.

Oh, and no worries about turning me off. It's all good.

The thing about Adventure Rebirth, and few people mention this, is that the level designs change depending on the difficulty setting!!! Therefore, the genius in the game design (which involves elements along the lines of Dracula XX) only shine through in Hard Mode, IMO.

No way!!! So they Incorporated what they learned from working on Gradius Rebirth back into the vania series. Excellent!

You see, this all started in the Gradius series (part 2 Arcade is the earliest I know of for sure) to change some level layouts on the second loop. For Gradius Rebirth they apparently took it to the next level by changing it for up to 3 or so loops. So a total of 3 or 4 times per level. Pretty cool idea if you ask me. I'm really excited for this game now... I'm thinking if I should save it for last to play and beat now?

Contra Rebirth is still a fun romp, but it doesn't feel like they totally understood the franchise

Exactly what I was thinking too. You see, after playing all the games in a classic series, I find it becomes very easy to tell what fits with the series and what doesn't. And after playing a ton of classic Contra, then going to Rebirth, I could tell right away something was off and that the ream didn't fully understand the series. Just like how Castlevania Legends totally missed the boat for the classic vania games.