Topic: Castlevania: "Same hell, different devil"--How far have we come since '03?

[RichterB]

So, is it just me, or are we going around in circles as a fan base? In 2003, we had the release of Aria of Sorrow and Lament of Innocence. The former added in the Tactical Soul System and brought Castlevania into a "future" present day narrative where "Dracula" could be a hero while keeping the Symphony of the Night map progression, the latter redefined the CV "origin story" and brought 3D Castlevania into the modern world of block-and-attack arena combo fighting with limited to no platforming. Dawn of Sorrow, Portrait of Ruin, and Order of Ecclesia followed Aria of Sorrow, tweaking things here, reusing resources there; Curse of Darkness and Lords of Shadow followed Lament of Innocence, maintaining a focus on combo-driven gameplay while either dropping platforming to 1% or stratifying and reworking it more toward "shimmying." Dracula X Chronicles and The Adventure Rebirth came out as sort of retro diversions, and Castlevania: Judgment came out [too late] as a side-step to cash in on the Wii-swinging craze; but 2D Castlevania didn't fundamentally change from Aria of Sorrow, and the 3D games haven't strayed all that far from what was established in Lament of Innocence.

In other words, the 2D games focused on repeating Super Metroid-inspired maps, and the 3D games focused on a lot of empty space with lots of combos with platforming relegated as an afterthought. Fast-forward to LoS: Mirror of Fate and Lords of Shadow 2. Two years removed from Lords of Shadow, we get two games which, from what has been revealed so far, intend to remix the same design movements propagated in 2003. Super Metroid maps and power-ups will again define 2D game progression, with the addition of the blocking and combos and caged arena fights prevalent in Lament of Innocence. Lords of Shadow 2? It continues another attempt at a redefining "origin story" (that leads to a "future" present day in narrative), and it remains to be seen what the final result will be, but the teaser images and trailers hint at over-the-top combo-driven gameplay (LoI/LoS), playing as "Dracula," and magical abilities including transformations (AoS/SotN), while no platforming of consequence appears in sight, and appears less likely given what has been shown of Mirror of Fate. We've heard this before, and we've experienced the flaws before, as well.

I was considering this as a poll, but a discussion is more open-ended. For me, all of this adds up to the old saying, "Same hell, different devil." Personally, I was sick of the redundancy of the Metroidvania style in 2D, and utterly frustrated by the combo-driven/platforming afterthought mentality that has thrived since LoI in the 3D Castlevanias. One would think changing directors, teams, and studios, and providing more resources and freedom, would allow for a Castlevania significantly evolved to encompass a wider view of Castlevania's roots and fan base. It would allow for visions that would break the cycle and rut, and unite a fan base fragmented like a broken stained-glass window into a more cohesive, vibrant, and definitive mosaic.

Instead, I feel that the series is still being tweaked, some things worse, some things better, without really succeeding in moving it forward or defining its identity in a strong, cohesive way against its modern competitors. In other words, whether it's one step forward and two steps backward, or two steps forward and one step backward, the net result, to me, has been "competent, but average, disposable experience that uses the legacy of the branding to minimal effect." I know Mirror of Fate and LoS2 are still in the works, but they haven't given the impression of fundamentally learning from the repetitive, parasitic cycle of the past or their own flaws. I'm not judging IGA's team or Mercury Steam, except to say that neither have solved the franchise's issue of being stuck in a rut and dividing fans. Mercury Steam has done little more than adding shock value and added production values to the same struggles IGA was facing. Hence, no offense, same hell, different devil. By this point, nearly 10 years later, Castlevania should be much further along, shouldn't it? For various reasons, despite my great personal admiration of the N64 efforts, Castlevania has never had its defining 3D moment of general consensus like Ocarina of Time (for Zelda) or Mario 64 (for Mario), and it's way past time that it should. Fan service, trend emulation, and cinematic slathering isn't going to be enough to save this series or make me jump for joy as a long-time fan.

So, how far have we really come?

Well, discuss--have at it!

[e105beta]

It's a lot of text, but after reading it all, all I can say is that it all comes down to expectations.

Sure, Castlevania has never had that "This is the greatest game ever" 3D experience, but I don't think it needs to. Mario hasn't really changed since it was first conceived, it's just that it's gameplay is attractive to such a wide audience that they can add in/take out a new mechanic every game or so and people will buy it.

[beingthehero]

About Judgment, you are right that it came out too late to cash in on the Wii craze. If it was released in 2006, it might have done better. But, nobody liked those designs and nobody liked the idea of a fighting game. It's really odd, considering OoE did so much right. Really, OoE was kind of Lords' predecessor in a way, in that it brought back the emphasis on fighting rather than exploring and collecting (which was there but relatively optional). It helped that it retailed at launch for what, $30? It was little gem that trimmed all the fat off and left us with a nice tidy little game.

Anyways, I think people over-sell innovation as if every single other franchise out there "innovates" or brings freshness that somehow makes them sell leaps and bounds over Castlevania. When it comes right down to it, not a lot separates Modern Warfare 3 over the very first PC Call of Duty beyond better graphics, lightly improved AI and..that's it. Same mechanics, same ironsights, same everything. And the inclusion of iron sights was the only thing that separated Call of Duty 1 from Medal of Honor: Allied Assault.

Also, the last time we saw true experimentation in Castlevania was with Vampire Killer and CVII. The latter went for a maze-like approach a la Legacy of the Wizard, while CVII was more adventure-style with CV1-ish elements. That's it. Rondo, Belmont's Revenge, CVIII added branching paths/level select, while SCIV, Castlevania for the X68k, Bloodlines, CV Adventure, and Legends toed CV1's line. Copying the same formula over and over is not a recent phenomenon here, as it defined the series throughout most of the 90's, while IGA was working on shoot em ups and Tokimeki Memorial.

The thing is, Konami follows the safest bet. People forget that other than Pokemon, no gaming company has ever bet that a 2D Gameboy Advance or DS game would be a million-seller hit. That's why 2D Metroidvanias lasted so long since 2001, because they were A). Relatively inexpensive to make especially after 2005, and B) they always sold safely. IGA said that DXC, which didn't sell enough to make him jump up and down, did enough for Konami to make a profit.

As an aside to DXCs/IGAs fortunes, Metal Gear Solid: Peace Walker sold only 52,000 units, while OoE sold almost 300,000. Consider the fact that Hideo Kojima said that Peace Walker's team was as large as that as MGS4's, and the massive production values that went into that game. Then consider OoE, which was made inexpensively.

I still maintain that IGA is the best bet for the 2D handheld market, because his games are very inexpensive and safe-bets when it comes to sales. This was true even of HoDespair. IGA said that if it sold well enough for Konami, they would bring it over to the PS3, but at the time he wasn't certain. And it sold well enough to be brought over to the PS3. Granted, I wouldn't consider that game quality, but still.

Anyways, I think Cox was the best bet for a 3D game. He knows how to hype people the hell up, and Lords had very slick production values. He delivered a million-seller hit, and the series has been revitalized due to that. The last time we've really had a rejuvenation of this sort was Dawn of Sorrow, because Castlevania had totally fallen off my radar until that game came out and was plastered everywhere. It was one of the titles to have for the DS.

tl;dr version: both IGA and Cox have done very good things for the series and its sales numbers and sometimes us fans just assume or read into things way too much.

[Dremn]

It's not very surprising when you have a franchise with now three different identities that stand them out from other entries in the series.

I feel as a whole the fanbase hasn't changed much, but now the Metroidvania fans are feeling the sting Classicvania fans felt when the franchise went through it's transformation with Symphony of the Night. I'm actually quite new to the franchise, and didn't grow up with the games. However, it's been my understanding there has always been tension in the fanbase because of IGA's decision to abandon the Classicvania design. The shift to LoS is no different, and in some cases a bit more severe because elements we've been so used to for a long time have been completely taken out of the new canon, or some things feel like to others they don't "belong" in Castlevania.

[RichterB]

Sorry for the lengthy wording in the topic. I forgot that we're in an age of quick and dirty, and I'm sort of analytical. But you've helped me find what REALLY should have been the topic of this thread. It's a lot more useful and to the point! SEE BELOW:

Enough complaining and splitting hairs; it's brass tax time!

Here's where we get to some nitty gritty. I understand and can agree both sides discussing the fundamental game design. But, whether the ideas were borrowed/inspired or not from 2D Castlevania, in 3D execution, Lords of Shadow does play too much like God of War, and not like "Castlevania." (In turn, God of War can play like Lament of Innocence, which in turn plays like Rygar: The Legendary Adventure and Devil May Cry...again, not "Castlevania").

So, here's where the rubber hits the road: What plays like Castlevania in 3D?

Well...from my experience, I would argue, in a most basic fundamental sense, the Maximo series by Capcom (a 3D reworking of Ghosts N Goblins, which is an 80's action-platforming horror peer of Castlevania), and Konami's very own Castlevania 64 and Legacy of Darkness.

There it is. I said it. Now, can anyone swallow their pride enough to admit it?

No, because Legacy of Darkness is essentially the original formula in 3D.

Despite that, I found it lacking, and until I see a real improvement on it, I maintain the belief that the original formula just doesn't translate too well to 3D

Ok, and I assume you think the same thing about Maximo 1 and 2. But then, if you maintain that, and it's your right, then I think the God of War argument is equally valid. If 2D Castlevania in full 3D is not Castlevania, than the other choice is not any more so Castlevania in 3D. Wait, this is getting really weird. Basically we're saying that Castlevania can't be Castlevania in 3D!

[beingthehero]

The whole "Metroidvania fans vs. the old fans" was always a bum deal that was unique to these forums, and remains just as true today in regards to Lords of Shadow. Most people here grew up with both, and liked both, just as many fans like GBA/DS/PS2 games and also like Lords. Most people realized that linear 2D games had died off with the advent of the PS1 and N64, and that having 2D games like SotN and Valkyrie Profile in general were miracles unto themselves.

The whole deal with 'man the classic games were so much better FUCK IGA ANDROGYNOUS PRETTY BOY FAGS MICHIRU YAMANE BLOWS ASDLAFSDAFSD' came about around 2003 when the timeline was released and Legends was struck from the timeline along with the KCEK games. Until then, nobody really cared one way or the other but the whole Sonia shit was just too much.

Eventually it evolved into some frankly creepy signatures that had IGA, Yamane, and Ayami Kojima acting as Japanese stereotypes with the whole "HERRO" thing. These people also eagerly bought the GBA/DS games as well. That was probably the dumbest point in the fanbase.

Since then it's kind of become a meme to hate IGA, even though there really hasn't been a point since 2003. It was just kind of expected of you, and even I dabbled in it and declared CV dead in 2006. Then I happily bought PoR and realized I was massive tool for hating a guy I've never met for reasons that I didn't agree with just to act like I was in vogue with the fan base.

[e105beta]

Sorry for the lengthy wording in the topic. I forgot that we're in an age of quick and dirty, and I'm sort of analytical. But you've helped me find what REALLY should have been the topic of this thread. It's a lot more useful and to the point! SEE BELOW:

No, because Legacy of Darkness is essentially the original formula in 3D.

Despite that, I found it lacking, and until I see a real improvement on it, I maintain the belief that the original formula just doesn't translate too well to 3D


Ok, and I assume you think the same thing about Maximo 1 and 2. But then, if you maintain that, and it's your right, then I think the God of War argument is equally valid. If 2D Castlevania in full 3D is not Castlevania, than the other choice is not any more so Castlevania in 3D. Wait, this is getting really weird. Basically we're saying that Castlevania can't be Castlevania in 3D!

Don't apologize for the length at all. I read the whole thing and appreciated the analysis. I just wasn't going to reply with as long a post

The whole "Metroidvania fans vs. the old fans" was always a bum deal that was unique to these forums, and remains just as true today in regards to Lords of Shadow. Most people here grew up with both, and liked both, just as many fans like GBA/DS/PS2 games and also like Lords. Most people realized that linear 2D games had died off with the advent of the PS1 and N64, and that having 2D games like SotN and Valkyrie Profile in general were miracles unto themselves.

The whole deal with 'man the classic games were so much better FUCK IGA ANDROGYNOUS PRETTY BOY FAGS MICHIRU YAMANE BLOWS ASDLAFSDAFSD' came about around 2003 when

Maybe publicly, but I always begrudged the feminine design of the characters onwards from SotN.

[beingthehero]

The only one that ever seemed to bother people was Juste, and nobody seemed to mind Soma and Leon.

I remember a time when almost everyone thought Simon's Chronicles redesign was bad ass. The early 2000s were such a nostalgic time. ;_;

[beingthehero]

Also, I think people tend to forget that Leon was the last effeminate CV character. Soma in DoS had his bishie features toned down to just anime teenager, Jonathan was the typical Japanese cartoon depiction of an American, DXC Richter wasn't androgynous at all, Shanoa was, well, female, and Christopher retained his barbarian design. So 6 years had already passed between 2003 and 2009 with nary a  girly guy.

[Neobelmont]

Dang you write long Richter 

But I cannot remember everything since 2003, but what I can say is that at least we on a stepping stone to go forward not go back. Things are happening and even if we do not agree among each other progress is still being made to make sure this incredible franchise is still kicking

[e105beta]

Also, I think people tend to forget that Leon was the last effeminate CV character. Soma in DoS had his bishie features toned down to just anime teenager, Jonathan was the typical Japanese cartoon depiction of an American, DXC Richter wasn't androgynous at all, Shanoa was, well, female, and Christopher retained his barbarian design. So 6 years had already passed between 2003 and 2009 with nary a  girly guy.

Eh, maybe Soma's bishie features were toned down in DoS, but his girlishness skyrocketed. Seriously, I played DoS before AoS, and I honestly thought he was girl for a good few minutes before I turned it on. His HoD design is arguably his best.

But other than that, I completely agree. DXC is probably some of my favorite work from Kojima, and Hirooka's artwork was very Japanese, but not so "everyone's a bishie".

[Neobelmont]

Eh, maybe Soma's bishie features were toned down in DoS, but his girlishness skyrocketed. Seriously, I played DoS before AoS, and I honestly thought he was girl for a good few minutes before I turned it on. His HoD design is arguably his best.

But other than that, I completely agree. DXC is probably some of my favorite work from Kojima, and Hirooka's artwork was very Japanese, but not so "everyone's a bishie".

At least Eric never changes right 

[VladCT]

Well, aside from the inexplicable purple dye-job. But hey, this is Castlevania we're talking about.
...Wait, didn't Eric start out as a bishie in Japan? Sure, the Westerners gave him a manly-man makeover, but if we're going by technicality we should be counting the original Japanese counterpart instead.

[Reinhart77]

Castlevania will never advance as far as it was supposed to as long as they refuse to make an original HD 2D sprite-based Metroidvania disk console title that leaves Symphony of the Night in the dust.  But that only seems possible in an alternate reality, due to practical issues.

[derision]

It's come a long way for the better. Of course I only speak for the games and direction here, since I don't view the Castlevania fanbase very favorably, at least when taken as a whole. So much vitriol about basically everything- if there's something about the series you like, you can bet that there's someone who not only disagrees with it, but is ready to go off on an impassioned tirade about it at the drop of a hat.

So yeah, the overall "fanbase" and its patterns do not mean much to me since it's so fractured. I'm going to embrace the stuff that appeals to me personally, which the current direction of Castlevania is doing. A strong and personal emphasis on the Belmont/Drac feud, a focus on traversing environments that aren't just flat rooms ad nauseum, engaging combat, a dark and moody atmosphere, etc.