Topic: A Letter to All Iga-Vania Fans From a LoS Fanatic

[KyleVoakes]

(Apologies for the out-of-context notes, but there is something I must address before getting to the meat of the thread. The following was actually typed by me a while ago on Screwattack, where it received zero comments and only a handful of views. I feel like I posted in the wrong place, and in the wrong time, so now I'm hoping to correct this mistake and hope that I can redeem my efforts. I hope you understand why I needed to copy/paste, as this is quite a long block of text. I will edit the post to make it more appropriate to the forums though. Thanks.)

This isn't any ordinary thread you'd see on any ordinary forum. This isn't an ordinary user boasting over ordinary feats or opinions. This is a personal letter to a specific crowd of fans within our community. I'm directing this thread to the Castlevania fans that grew up with the franchise during the PS1 era, those that began with SOTN and followed it onward. If you still wish to read on, I cannot stop you, but I guarantee that it will be a long ride until the end. Shall we begin?

Before I start, I will need to explain what I'm coming from when it comes to the Castlevania fanbase. I grew up with a NES controller in my hands. I vaguely recall spending almost all my time playing video games, among them being the great classics like Megaman, Contra, and Battletoads.  Castlevania wasn't my favourite series of all time, but it's one I never stranded away from. I distinctively recall owning every one of the cartridge games, excluding Bloodlines for the Genesis. I've owned two copies of Simon's Quest. I've played through Castlevania 3 until I completed it. I also, once upon a time,  owned the now $120 valued Dracula X for the SNES. These were the games that defined Castlevania for me, and these are the games I admire most of all in the franchise.



Where am I leading up to with this? Lords of Shadow. I know, you're all already familiar with the upcoming sequels and you're all probably excited for Alucard's (or Hector's) return. Some of you are confused to how this game relates to the PS1 classic, Symphony of the Night, while others are boycotting the LoS series in favour of a possible return to the Metroid-Vania style. I will not argue your preferences, but I will plead that you tone down the hate for Mercury Steam's 3D adventure title. Why do I ask this when probably a few of you are might be panicking that your treasured Iga-Vania universe may be replaced by the Lords of Shadow timeline? Because my Castlevania was already replaced by yours.

Let me explain further. I don't like Symphony of the Night. It's a good game, I've played it through to the end. I have nothing against the game itself, but I have a disliking to what it did to the franchise. See, I grew up with (and understood) Castlevania as a "Belmont with a Whip, Linear Level-Structured Platformer." That is my Castlevania, and it's how I enjoyed it. Then Symphony was released, and it changed everything. No longer will I play a linear side-scroller, and no longer will a Belmont be the main character. Yes, Juste Belmont in Harmony of Dissonance proves me wrong, but for me, he isn't a proper Belmont. There's too much of Alucard's influence in the design. Symphony of the Night had killed the Castlevania I grew up with. Simon and Trevor Belmont, the heroes from my games, were abominated from armored, holy warriors and transformed into... well, I cannot find words to describe them now. Trevor now has an eyepatch and an outfit made out of belts, and Simon has dazzling red hair and looks more like a punk druid with the raven feathers (Chronicles) and black shorts/open jacket (Judgment).  Dracula himself, also changed into some white-haired teenager in Japan, sporting a very anime-appearance and guns? The aftermath of Symphony of the Night had killed my Castlevania...

Then Lords of Shadow happened.

The announcement of "The Mask Project" on Kojima's E3 site speculated several theories amongst the fans; and nobody really caught onto the previous Lords of Shadow teaser while Castlevania Judgement was being premiered. What we saw on that show floor, what I saw that day, fulfilled me beyond delight. I kept repeated it to myself, watching as Gabriel was tackled by a massive werewolf, "This is Castlevania?" It wasn't out of defiance to the new direction, I was asking myself in disbelief. Was I really seeing what I was seeing? A Belmont with a whip? A return to the Gothic, European design? Zero connection to the complex timeline that had betrayed me? An orchestrated score that isn't rock-guitar? This wasn't like the recent Castlevania games I had no interest in; it was my Castlevania! Nothing else about the game mattered to me. I didn't mind if the staple "Vampire Killer" wasn't included as Gabriel's whip, and I didn't mind if it threw out the titular castle altogether in favour of a more diverse landscape akin to Super Castlevania 4. It felt like my Castlevania, and it was nostalgia alone that tempted me to re-watch the same trailers over and over again obsessively. Lords of Shadow became the very first game I ever pre-ordered, celebrating it with the inclusion of a T-shirt with the game. I listen to the soundtrack constantly, and I still am to this day. While I have beaten the game in a single week, revisiting it for DLC and trophies, I can proudly say that I've been greatly enjoying it since it launched, and the experience of playing it has stayed with me like the old carts in my youth.

Now I need to speak about the reality of what is to come. After Lords of Shadow 2 is released, the Iga-Vania series will return, and Mercury Stream may never return to the tale of Belmonts and Vampires.They plan to end it after the upcoming sequel, but I am glad. My Castlevania (as I remember it) has died to give you, the Iga fans, what you love; but now it seems like the series I recognize isn't simply going to fade out. Like Sonic 4 and Megaman 9, Lords of Shadow isn't going to replace or destroy what you are all familiar with, it is simply returning the series to what the classic fans are familiar with.  It's our swansong to the old, nostalgic  format. Our last hurrah. You may like it, dislike it, or even hate it; but I am only asking you one thing. Please try not to lead a charge against the Lords of Shadow series with cries of betrayal, and don't try to find excuses or attempts to explain how it "isn't Castlevania". LoS isn't the Castlevania you love, but it is the Castlevania I grew up with.



So where am I going with this? It's an announcement that may not seem like much to you, but it's big for me. Lords of Shadow 2 is coming out within the next year, and with it, the conclusion to the exclusive CV series. It seems like the perfect time to quit. As I stated earlier, I've seen my Castlevania decay into the SOTN fandom. The games you all love, I can't follow them. After Lords of Shadow 2 is released, I will finally have a series I can respect, something that maintains the Gothic, European design like the Classic games held. I don't want to be stuck in the past and clench onto the 8-16 bit games after they've been absorbed to fit into Iga's timeline. I hate that CV3 has a sequel in Curse of Darkness. I hate how both the original CV and SCV4 were remade into Chronicles with an "updated" Simon Belmont. I hate how the whole Belmont lineage began with a silly, personal grudge in Lament of Innocence, and that the Vampire Killer Whip has a soul of many generations ago trapped inside it. Most of all, I hate how the entire Belmont legacy has taken a backseat for Alucard, Soma, Hector, or anyone else usurping the lead role. I can't find comfort with calling myself a Castlevania fan while those exist, so I have to accept that the current "main timeline" in the CV, starting from Lament of Innocence to Dawn of Sorrow, isn't for me anymore. All the games from 1986-2009, the ones belonging to the Iga Timeline (including the ones I grew up with)... you can keep it all. I don't want to follow those stories anymore. So please, at least give me LoS to hang onto, and don't boycott it for being "too different" or unoriginal.

I guess I went into a tangent there. Sorry about that. I was originally trying to make it clear how it feels to grow up with the old NES Castlevania games, only to see them become something you'd rather ignore than admit to liking. I wanted to make it clear how important Lords of Shadow is to the retro fanbase, that finally our game has grown up into the proper 3D installment it should have been on the N64.

Thank you.

(Edited in after some replies)
From the way things are mentioned above, I've given the false impression that I'm speaking for all retro fans of Castlevania, and that there can't be those that enjoy both types of games. I'll be clear about it now and say that I'm only speaking on the behalf of those that are uncomfortable with the direction Castlevania had been moving towards before LoS was released, up until Judgment at least. Nobody can speak for a whole demographic, so I'm sorry for any mix up.

[Kale]

Holy crap, there needs to be a tl;dr version.

I don't know if I really want to spend a lot of time reading this, because of the title... Sounds like a iga sucks, it's all cox now. Hehe, cox.

Okay, I'm done.

[KyleVoakes]

Holy crap, there needs to be a tl;dr version.

I don't know if I really want to spend a lot of time reading this, because of the title... Sounds like a iga sucks, it's all cox now. Hehe, cox.

Okay, I'm done.

Sorry about that, but I cannot summarize it into a tl;dr. This is something that needs some expression in order to get the point across, and any shortened version of the letter won't do it justice.

As for it being an "Iga Sucks, Cox Rox" thread, I protest that it is nothing like that. It is merely a plea for one side of the fanbase to tolerate the other. A message of peace, in a way, actually.

[uzo]

The tl;dr is simply;

"SotN ruined my Castlevania, like LoS 'ruined' the IGA timeline. LoS series is a return to the ClassicVania's and I love them for it. I dread when MercurySteam is done and it returns to the MetroidVanias."

I do find it funny that he calls it the 'IGA' timeline specifically, since games in the timeline existed before IGA came along.

Oh also he's rage quitting the series when MercurySteam stops making LoS games.

[ScionOfBalance]

The tl;dr is simply;

"SotN ruined my Castlevania, like LoS 'ruined' the IGA timeline. LoS series is a return to the ClassicVania's and I love them for it. I dread when MercurySteam is done and it returns to the MetroidVanias."

I do find it funny that he calls it the 'IGA' timeline specifically, since games in the timeline existed before IGA came along.

Oh also he's rage quitting the series when MercurySteam stops making LoS games.

Man,thanks for summarizing it.

[KyleVoakes]

The tl;dr is simply;

"SotN ruined my Castlevania, like LoS 'ruined' the IGA timeline. LoS series is a return to the ClassicVania's and I love them for it. I dread when MercurySteam is done and it returns to the MetroidVanias."

I do find it funny that he calls it the 'IGA' timeline specifically, since games in the timeline existed before IGA came along.

Oh also he's rage quitting the series when MercurySteam stops making LoS games.

  Oh, rage quitting sounds so angry though. I don't really dread when MercurySteam finishes their Castlevania games, I'm openly anticipating it. That's where the franchise closes for me, and I'll be happy with a shorter, emotional story which has an ending than the ongoing Iga series.
Yeah, I refer to the main plotline as the "Iga Timeline" because it was Iga who dictated what was canon and what was retconned. Before Iga, yes, the story was there, but he finalized it.

[Sindra]

You've got a very thoughtful and obviously emotionally-charged argument there, and I commend you for sticking to your guns. Very few people who defend Lords of Shadow put in the time or effort to explain the details of why.

Here's where I will argue:

1.) There is nothing to say that Castlevania will return to a Metroidvania-style of gameplay ala:SotN after the Lords of Shadow universe has come to a close. There's nothing to say that the next person who takes of the reigns of the series might do something completely different from what we've already seen. You're assuming it's going back to how it was when IGA took the reigns, and you simply don't know that for certain.

2.) The "Castlevania Prime" universe and it's timeline was well established well before IGA took over. He's just the person who had reign over a stretched period of time and several games & added onto it and futzed around. It will probably be added onto after someone else takes over who could fiddle with things even more. You're kind of undermining the grand universe the franchise had already created by several different people before he came along by crowning him the "Black King IGA of Castlevania" whose corruption damned the CV Prime universe for all time.

3.) I too am a Castlevania fan from the NES era and therefore a "Retro Fan" as you put it. I grew up with Bloodlines and CV1 as my first introductions to the series and grew from there on. However, I did not see Lords of Shadow as a return to the Classicvania style on several levels - my biggest gripes being the mundane music and a lean more towards high-fantasy action rather than gothic adventure that was Castlevania's building blocks. Does this make either of our arguments baseless or untrue? No, because each person's perspective is different. I just got the impression from your words that you seemed to be speaking *for* us retro fans. Not all classic CV fans hated Symphony, and not all of us love Lords of Shadow. Just food for thought.

So yeah. My two cents.

[KyleVoakes]

You've got a very thoughtful and obviously emotionally-charged argument there, and I commend you for sticking to your guns. Very few people who defend Lords of Shadow put in the time or effort to explain the details of why.

Here's where I will argue:

1.) There is nothing to say that Castlevania will return to a Metroidvania-style of gameplay ala:SotN after the Lords of Shadow universe has come to a close. There's nothing to say that the next person who takes of the reigns of the series might do something completely different from what we've already seen. You're assuming it's going back to how it was when IGA took the reigns, and you simply don't know that for certain.

2.) The "Castlevania Prime" universe and it's timeline was well established well before IGA took over. He's just the person who had reign over a stretched period of time and several games & added onto it and futzed around. It will probably be added onto after someone else takes over who could fiddle with things even more. You're kind of undermining the grand universe the franchise had already created by several different people before he came along by crowning him the "Black King IGA of Castlevania" whose corruption damned the CV Prime universe for all time.

3.) I too am a Castlevania fan from the NES era and therefore a "Retro Fan" as you put it. I grew up with Bloodlines and CV1 as my first introductions to the series and grew from there on. However, I did not see Lords of Shadow as a return to the Classicvania style on several levels - my biggest gripes being the mundane music and a lean more towards high-fantasy action rather than gothic adventure that was Castlevania's building blocks. Does this make either of our arguments baseless or untrue? No, because each person's perspective is different. I just got the impression from your words that you seemed to be speaking *for* us retro fans. Not all classic CV fans hated Symphony, and not all of us love Lords of Shadow. Just food for thought.

So yeah. My two cents.

I appreciate the drawn out responses. Yeah, I did go overboard when it came to "I'm speaking for us" kinda thing, so I guess I owe you some credit for bringing that up. Yeah, a lot of the retro fans do admire the newer games like Curse of Darkness and Aria of Sorrow, but when I say "I'm speaking for us", I mean that I'm speaking for those that don't like the direction that Castlevania had been moving towards since SOTN's cult popularity. I should have been more specific about that.

When you point out that there is nothing stating that they are going to return to the original timeline after LoS2, I gave it a bit of thought as I wrote my original post, and concluded that it would just be ridiculous to erase twenty years of history entirely. I'm sure they'll treat fans to a proper SOTN sequel because of the delay LoS had caused, which I understand must be awful to go through.

[Sindra]

I don't even give a crap about a SotN sequel at this point. We have the radio drama that gives some "aftermath" story that suits me just fine. We get enough to speculate on that fills in the gaps just fine.


Just give me the damn Battle of 1999.

Give me that in the form of a huge 2D sidescroller and make it captivating enough to make me want to spend 30+ hours on my first playthrough enjoying the gameplay and ambiance. The Castlevania Prime universe can be settled after that as far as I'm concerned. Wrap this shyte up, but goddamit do it RIGHT. (and for Vlad's sake, don't make it a handheld; console that shit up in Hi-Def and go Odin Sphere on us)

[PFG9000]

Kyle, I too grew up with the series before the SotN era.  I started with CV1 in the late 80s and moved on to CV2 and SCV4, one of the greatest games ever made IMO.  I've ranked both CV1 and SCV4 near the top of the list of games on their consoles ever since then.  But I embraced SotN when I first played it (around 1999), and I adore most of the Iga titles.  They gave the series a much-needed evolution, and elevated it to an even higher esteem than what the 8-bit and 16-bit titles were able to accomplish.  I wished for the series to return to its roots the whole time, but I appreciated those Iga titles and thoroughly enjoyed them, even when I thought they could use some work (like PoR).

But I really don't care for LoS.  I respect it highly as a game, for all the care and polish that MS put into it.  However, I feel like it trampled all over my CV series.  The soundtrack was boring and had almost nothing in common with (or reminiscent of) the old games, neither Classicvanias nor Castleroids.  Half of the creatures and even more of the settings were foreign to the series.  The gameplay was completely new, especially when compared to the pre-SotN titles.  And there was no Dracula.  In a Castlevania title, no Dracula.  Absolutely unforgiveable when combined with all the other liberties taken.  At least LoI and AoS had Dracula-esque bosses, and they had an entirely CV-ish backdrop to compensate.

Oh, and for the record, Chronicles isn't a combination of CV1 and SCV4.  It's just a port of the old X68k game which is just about as old as CV1 and SCV4, plus a few enhancements.

You're entitled to your own opinion, but not all Classicvania fans feel that way.

[KyleVoakes]

Just give me the damn Battle of 1999.

Give me that in the form of a huge 2D sidescroller and make it captivating enough to make me want to spend 30+ hours on my first playthrough enjoying the gameplay and ambiance. The Castlevania Prime universe can be settled after that as far as I'm concerned. Wrap this shyte up, but goddamit do it RIGHT. (and for Vlad's sake, don't make it a handheld; console that shit up in Hi-Def and go Odin Sphere on us)

Oh, I hear ya. I know this may sound wrong for me to say, given the nature of this thread and all, but I feel the same with Contra. The last console game that was awesome was Shattered Soldier, and since then it has become a sort-a niche game. I really want an amazing side-scrolling, 2.5D Contra game that delivers punches like SS did on the PS2, and surprisingly, MercurySteam has gone on record for saying they'd like to do Contra. Now, I'm not one to leap to conclusion; I'm not giving MS immediate wins for this. As much as I love the 3D Castlevania that MS made, I don't think a 3rd Person Contra game would work. You can't jump over bullets like you can in Super C if the game played like Gears of War or Lost Planet.

Kyle, I too grew up with the series before the SotN era.  I started with CV1 in the late 80s and moved on to CV2 and SCV4, one of the greatest games ever made IMO.  I've ranked both CV1 and SCV4 near the top of the list of games on their consoles ever since then.  But I embraced SotN when I first played it (around 1999), and I adore most of the Iga titles.  They gave the series a much-needed evolution, and elevated it to an even higher esteem than what the 8-bit and 16-bit titles were able to accomplish.  I wished for the series to return to its roots the whole time, but I appreciated those Iga titles and thoroughly enjoyed them, even when I thought they could use some work (like PoR).

But I really don't care for LoS.  I respect it highly as a game, for all the care and polish that MS put into it.  However, I feel like it trampled all over my CV series.  The soundtrack was boring and had almost nothing in common with (or reminiscent of) the old games, neither Classicvanias nor Castleroids.  Half of the creatures and even more of the settings were foreign to the series.  The gameplay was completely new, especially when compared to the pre-SotN titles.  And there was no Dracula.  In a Castlevania title, no Dracula.  Absolutely unforgiveable when combined with all the other liberties taken.  At least LoI and AoS had Dracula-esque bosses, and they had an entirely CV-ish backdrop to compensate.

Oh, and for the record, Chronicles isn't a combination of CV1 and SCV4.  It's just a port of the old X68k game which is just about as old as CV1 and SCV4, plus a few enhancements.

You're entitled to your own opinion, but not all Classicvania fans feel that way.

I deserve that. You are free to pursue your likes and whatnot. As I mentioned to Sindra, I went a bit overboard with claiming to speak for the other retro fans, and I apologize for making us sound a bit ill over the transition from ClassicVania to MetroidVania, and I know that not every fan of the classics thought positively towards Lords of Shadow as a Castlevania game, James Rolfe included. So yeah, sorry for that.

Secondly, you mentioned that there is no Dracula in LoS. Well, I guess it shouldn't be a surprise anymore with LoS2's trailer, that LoS1 is all about Dracula. The whole game is more devoted to him than any of the previous games put together. As for the gameplay being "too new"... Well, here I ask "How else should it be done?" The 3D castlevania games before LoS, although they were met with some positive feedback with hardcore CV fans, didn't click for those outside of our fandom. Even you have to admit that it was kinda like Castlevania itself had a curse in the 3D department until LoS was released with high sales and arguable praise.

[beingthehero]

I'm just trying to figure out why CV1's cover was posted randomly among the text.

[KyleVoakes]

I'm just trying to figure out why CV1's cover was posted randomly among the text.

Because I wanted to use the two images, the CV1 cover and LoS's Official Art (Which looks like a homage to the CV1 cover due to similar postures of their heroes and the way the whip sways towards the viewer), to illustrate that they have more similarities with each other than people seem to believe.

[DarkPrinceAlucard]

I just love how if you do not like LOS than you are most likely a "IGAvania" fan lol.

And also how if you like IGAvanias than you are automatically somehow kicked out of the "Retro Fan" club even if you happen to be a big fan of the classicvanias as well.

[X]

It was a decent read. I read through all of it and while I agree with many of the things stated (like the IGA parts) I just can't agree with the LoS parts. The IGA games, while some were terrible did come off as being Castlevania-ish. My real gripe with IGA's games is the LoI Dracula backstory, CoD in general and many new faces that have snuck in to fill the role of hero Vs Dracula  . LoS is for different reasons all-together. The core of Castlevania just was not there for me. I've played it as much as I could, as far as I could and was ultimately let down in the end. Only the Castle chapters in LoS were even remotely Castlevania-ish. The rest of the game I could do without. I am also an avid "retro gamer" as I grew up playing the NES as well. And my first CV game was Simon's Quest. But as much as I tried I just can't except LoS as a return to the Classicvania feel because it's just not there for me. But like Sindra said; good for you for sticking to your guns