Topic: What ever happened to the 8 directional whipping?

[Inccubus]

Actually, all games come from Thomas T. Goldsmith Jr.'s CRT Amusement Device. Just sayin'.

What I don't get is the refusal to acknowledge that cardinal whipping in SCV4 does factually negate some of the need for the sub-weapons. Yes, there are still a few situations here and there where you need the extra reach, but you cannot argue that they aren't far less than in any other CV game. Look at Bloodlines. Is there any argument to be made that they couldn't have used the exact same proportions as SCV4 on the Genesis? Of course not. There was a conscious choice by the designers to limit the features introduced in SCV4 for good reasons. If anything, Bloodlines should have become the new norm for future Belmonts.

[crisis]

[Sumac]

So I still stand by what I said to a lesser extent: if you think NES CV games had crappy controls, you just suck at NES CV games.

I hope that wasn't directed at me, because...I've completed all NES CVs on one life this year. I wouldn't be able to do it, if I sucked at'em.
By the same margin, I could say that if you suck at Contra...well, you can figure out the rest. 

What I don't get is the refusal to acknowledge that cardinal whipping in SCV4 does factually negate some of the need for the sub-weapons.

It could have been improved, with more advanced level design. Post-SCV4 took an easier approach.

If anything, Bloodlines should have become the new norm for future Belmonts.

There are few things that distinguishes CVB from previous games. The only three major things are John's ability to whip diagonally up and use whip for jumping over gaps and Super Subweapon attacks. I am not counting Eric abilites, since he has unique weapon, that was never used before and after CVB.
By the way, John's ability to use whip to jump over gaps was also never used in the series, except for in LOI, as far as I know. Basically CV always forced primitive level design, by cutting all innovations away.

[thernz]

Level design isn't really destined to be primitive just because of distilled mechanics. Most examples of good emergent gameplay stem from simpler systems too. I mean, it's not a game, but Conway's Game of Life is pretty much the epitome of this principle.

The clock tower levels in Castlevania also show how much you can do without the need of extraneous mechanics.

[TheouAegis]

Original Zelda had shitty controls compared to today's games. I think Commando had crappy controls, even on the arcade version. And like I said, Bionic COmmando's control was pure shit, but I loved that game to death (*sniffles* R.I.P. my widdle cawtwidge...). I will agree CV3 handles slightly better than CV1, but I don't see that much of a difference. Trevor handles much like Simon and the same moves I learned with Trevor I can apply to Simon to get farther. So sorry, I still don't see what all the complaining about CV's controls are about. If people are bitching about an attack delay, that's just silly. If the complaints are about not being able to move while in air, that' just fucked up stupid shit only idiots ever complain about. If the complaints are about Simon and Trevor only moving 1 pixel per step, news flash: most enemies only move 1 pixel as well. The enemies that actually move considerably faster relative to Simon/Trevor are few and far between. Moving more than 1 pixel at a time makes collision detection much more difficult, hence the trend in Game Maker to make 1-pixel movement engines instead of using GM's built-in functions.

[Kusanagi]

Hmm... Ok, I'd better rephrase from what I said earlier, the whip doesn't need the subs to hit certain enemies. Sure, certain subs can reach farther, but its not like you can't get up a bit closer and use the whip instead either. No matter what enemy they threw at you, the whip is efficient enough to take them out, the subs only made it a bit convenient to approach them in some cases.
As far as I could tell, there's very few situations in which the game makes it feel like you really need a sub to get past a section. Other retro CVs make it feel like a choice between life or death if you don't have a certain sub with you at all times because hitting them with your whip would be either too tedious or difficult to do. Inccubus' point is pretty much says this though xD

improvements to stage design to emphasize the controls or perhaps boosting the subs to a degree, whichever option would have benefited SCV4 overall. The game is still fun, but the subs take a back seat in its need to be used is all.

To go along with what thernz has said, level design can be as elaborate as one can make it, as long as the controls can keep up with what the level throws at the player. Indeed it is restricted to a degree by the controls (don't think many like controls that make things more difficult than it needs to be), but levels can be creative yet complement the controls it is given. It just rides on the designers and how well they make the stages.

[Sumac]

If character have simple and limited abilities, there is no point to make very elaborate level design.

If people are bitching about an attack delay, that's just silly. If the complaints are about not being able to move while in air, that' just fucked up stupid shit only idiots ever complain about.

Just say outright, that people who have complaints about controls in CV games are idiots and that's that. 
In reality there are bad things about CVs controls and they do exist no matter how much amount of sugarcoating or nostalgia you throw over them. Stiffness, slowness. Clumsy jumps, often not very adequate hitboxes. It's not that critical to the game, however, all this make controling characters harder, then they really should be. An example that goes beyond just "stiff controls" is CVA. This is a game where bad controls is the main enemy of the player. Creative level design that clash with engine problems and aforementioned bad controls - doesn't help.

[TheouAegis]

Hit boxes? Did you seriously complain about hit boxes? ... ... Ok, may have been a problem in CV1 and CV2, but it was definitely cleaned up by CV3. CV3 has some of the most forgiving collision detection I've ever seen in a game then and now. And only in CV2 did it ever feel slow to me. Jumps were far from clumsy. Konami gave a LOT of leeway in the jumping. You can jump from your heels and land on your tiptoes in CV games. Seriously, what is it about CV's mechanics that make jumping clumsy? The controls were far more forgiving for Simon and Trevor than they were for, say, the whip or bone-tossing skeletons. Those poor bastards were actually programmed to overshoot a ledge even when they visibly land on it after a jump. The one single feature of CV's controls I'll readily grant anyone is the stairs, since Konami programmed Trevor and Simon to move at half speed on stairs (makes sense, though) and rendered them uncontrollable until the climbing animation ended. That was the only clunky feature I ever noticed in an NES CV game. ... Ok, I've also vocalized my complaint about requiring left/right to be held down first when A is pressed or pressing them both at the exact same time without fail; but to make that aspect of jumping more lenient, Konami would have had to sacrifice even more speed with extraneous code, so I can forgive that.

As I've said for the GB ones, that's a whole different story (I think Legends I liked the most control-wise for the GB ones). Adventure's just straight up turned me off of the GB series.


And I"m not sugarcoating with nostalgia. CV2, maybe. CVA I loathe, so definitely not sugarcoating that. CV2 was the one that got me into the series. I played CV1 on the COmmodore and was like "ooh CV on Commodore!" I never played CV1 on the NES until I was in college. I bought CV3 and played it for the very first time after that. I never even knew about it -- I went to the store looking for CV2 and all they had was CV3 so I was like, "why the hell not." Like I said, I played a few times then abandoned it. Everything I say about CV3 and parts of CV1 are based on month after month of studying CV3's code and playing through stages over and over and over and over and over. Handles just as well as Mega Man, imho. If i was going to sugarcoat anything, it'd be Ninja Gaiden 2. But I have a love-hate relationship with that series: I love it so much but fucking hate the games because they're so fucking annoyingly hard for me. And God help you if you jump onto a wall with no ladder.