Topic: Save your criticism

[crisis]

It's not there to give you catchy hooks that get stuck in your head.

and I think that's why it receives as much criticism from fans as much as it does. I don't mean to speak for anyone else, but from what I've observed over the years, at least from this forum, is that the majority of us wished the LoS soundtrack was more in tune with all the others; after all, Cox & co. did say that LoS was intended to be a "love letter" to Castlevania, so why not honor the fantastic music? I'm not asking for a replica of SotN's OST, but I'm not fond of the emotional "Gabriel's struggle" pieces either (with the exception of a few). SotN's OST sounds totally different from PoR's OST, but they're still in tune with CV's spirit, in my opinion. as pointed in other threads, the full soundtrack isn't even featured on the game! What kinda nonsense is that? But it is what it is, I don't wanna sound like a broken record..

[Pfil]

I have music training and have been composing and playing for over 10 years. I think the LOS soundtrack was done very well. It's not there to give you catchy hooks that get stuck in your head. It's music is meant to supplement the game. This type of composing takes a great amount of restraint and I have a lot of respect for it. I don't understand why people keep calling it "Hollywood". It's a soundtrack.

Yes it's different, and it's meant to be.

And I've listened to some of your works and liked them.
This discussion, however, started regarding The Wolverine's soundtrack, not LoS' soundtrack.
I also stated that LoS music was far superior to what we get from Hollywood super productions nowadays (that noisy, orchestral music with random chords and no form whatsoever). At least LoS was in large part calm and setting an ambience (not the case for battle themes, but you get the point).

So you have been upvoting him too? I've upvoted some earlier posts that I found to be fair and polite.

Yup 
I like to up-vote people I like when I like their comments 

All this talk of needing a 'trained ear' or a degree and years of experience to offer an authoritative or more knowledgeable opinion on music being good or bad kind of saddens me.

Kinuyo Yamashita (Yamako) by her own admission didn't have much experience when she started out:

"Before I worked at Konami, I had very little experience with music. I mean, my parents made me take piano lessons at age 4, but that’s all. I studied electronic engineering in college. So I didn’t really know I could compose music until I started working at Konami."

But her work was inspired and her tunes are timeless within our series.  Perhaps there's a case here that, someone with less credentials and experience, is less constrained by convention and accepted parameters of musical theory and technique.  Or maybe not.  I've been playing and composing guitar for twenty years, but sometimes I do wish I could unlearn some things and get back to an open book.  There is always complaceny.

But meantime try picking out a structure in a piece like Vampire Killer . . .

I think we need to adopt a little more respect and modesty. And also accept that we have been terribly spoilt with good tunes and composers for over 25 years.

I'm sorry, but I don't have any other way to express it.
If you are referring to the fanbase, we don't need to do anything, the developers must adapt to us, and not the other way around. People have come and go from a quarter century from CV, but the fanbase always stay, like the supporters of a sports team and the players, kind of...
On the other hand, if you were talking about me, I guess you misunderstood it completely. Ask anyone here, and they will tell you that, although I'm really passionate and vocal about my opinions, I am all about respect and humility.
And about Yamako, sometimes people can use good taste to overcome lack of musical training, as is the case with many good bands out there.
But current Hollywood productions composers are all musicians with degrees making garbage because they tell them to do so, so it's the complete opposite.
Movies music has been downgraded to its lowest form on recent years.
Of course we have some exceptions, but the general rule is to make rubbish.
This discussion wasn't about LoS, by the way. Not this time. I mentioned The Wolverine as an example, and later added trailers' music as an extension of the same concept.
I hope you understand and don't feel offended by my comments, because that is never my intentions with fellow dungeonites. If anything, any offense is intended to external people (such as composers).

As an additional note, I must state that Marco Beltrami have some masterpieces of his own, so the lack of music from The Wolverine is another example of how Hollywood instruct brilliant musicians to dumb down everything they do for new movies.
So this isn't even about a composer, or any composer, for that matter. It is against Hollywood, and modern day trend of filling everything with noise and nonsense instead of music.

[The Silverlord]

But current Hollywood productions composers are all musicians with degrees making garbage because they tell them to do so, so it's the complete opposite.
Movies music has been downgraded to its lowest form on recent years.

Well, I am ignorant of the planning, work, and execution that goes into composing for an orchestra.  I cannot imagine it is easy.  The guitarist Steve Vai who has done some work with a symphony, has stated:

"Composing a symphony of 40 minutes or more can take 8 months of 12 hour undisturbed days. This project took a whole year to compose, orchestrate, create the parts and score, rehearse the orchestra and do the performances."

If I said I prefer Yamako's material to Oscar's because of the musical hooks and 'hummability', it would be a disparaging slight in light of the sheer time and work Oscar will have put in.  Hence I may myself be 'untrained' in making my comment, and ignorant of his work, but it's still my opinion.  I do still think however they are two different beasts and I can appreciate Lords' soundtrack.  Belmont's Theme I think is bloody brilliant, and right up there with the best in the series.

And apologies, I'm not picking on you.  You're very passionate with this subject, and you're much more knowledgeable on it than I.

[Maedhros]

The video Jorge posted is perfect. LoS music can be hummed, but only you will understand what the fuck you're humming, the songs have 0 melody there, unless they are songs from the old games.

LoS soundtrack is there to enhance the game, not to be memorable. And that's where lies the problem, for some people. I consistently loved CV tunes all these 25 years, when they come with this type of soundtrack on a CASTLEVANIA game, you can be sure as fuck that I'll complain.

[DarkPrinceAlucard]

I don't think those tunes are hummable.
It wouldn't sound, to someone hearing you hum, like anything.

Thats what I'm thinking as well!

I just don't see how someone would want to hum that kind of tune to themselves since to me it does not seem all that catchy.

but hey, maybe you guys do actually do this, but I can't see how such tunes could possible be hummable in comparison to catchy tracks from old like Bloody tears and Vampire Killer for example.

[Inccubus]

I hum Belmont's theme

I would pay money to hear a recording of that. The only thing I hear when I listen to Belmont's Theme is several layers of strings that are basically doing nothing with no melody to speak of.

I ALWAYS find myself humming Waterfalls of Agharta. I'd make the case that "well it IS a Classicvania Orchestration" but I tend to specifically hum the LoS version. There's something just so soothing about the way it was done. I'd even call it superior to the original. (Plz don't shoot)

The Waterfall is barely humable to begin with and this "remix" stripped out all of The Waterfall's melody. Honestly the only thing the two songs share is that piano  bit.

I don't think those tunes are hummable.
It wouldn't sound, to someone hearing you hum, like anything.

However, I think what changed, was us... not really the medium.

I'm gonna put this here again, because apparently people didn't notice it the first time I posted it:
Extra Credits: Video Game Music

I concur for the most part.
Don't agree with the bit about being able to dynamically change the music constantly. That does not help matters any and I usually find it annoying when I'm hearing the beginning of several songs constantly as I go in and out of combat.

In the case of LoS I'd take this...

Theme of Simon Belmont - Special String Concerto Arrangement - Super Castlevania IV

this...

Van Helsing Soundtrack Transylvania 1887

or this...

Bram Stoker's Dracula- Vampire Hunters

over this...

Castlevania Lords of Shadow Music - Belmont's Theme

every time.

[Maedhros]

The Van Helsing one is just like the songs in LoS soundtracks... I think that's bias.

Bram Stolker has a melody, even though I don't think it fits in Castlevania.

[Inccubus]

Except the Van Helsing OST actually has a lot of strong melody.

[Maedhros]

Except the Van Helsing OST actually has a lot of strong melody.

Well, post one music with melody then. I think it would be a better example than one that sounds like almost anything in LoS soundtrack.

[Pfil]

Well, I am ignorant of the planning, work, and execution that goes into composing for an orchestra.  I cannot imagine it is easy.  The guitarist Steve Vai who has done some work with a symphony, has stated:

"Composing a symphony of 40 minutes or more can take 8 months of 12 hour undisturbed days. This project took a whole year to compose, orchestrate, create the parts and score, rehearse the orchestra and do the performances."

If I said I prefer Yamako's material to Oscar's because of the musical hooks and 'hummability', it would be a disparaging slight in light of the sheer time and work Oscar will have put in.  Hence I may myself be 'untrained' in making my comment, and ignorant of his work, but it's still my opinion.  I do still think however they are two different beasts and I can appreciate Lords' soundtrack.  Belmont's Theme I think is bloody brilliant, and right up there with the best in the series.

And apologies, I'm not picking on you.  You're very passionate with this subject, and you're much more knowledgeable on it than I.

It's fine! 
I can't help it sometimes, but I never want to be arrogant.

The thing is that a few years ago they did good soundtracks in Hollywood. And the same composers are making rubbish today. That's why I blame Hollywood, and not even the composers.
For example, Hans Zimmer. I was a super passionate fans and I used to listen to his new works every time. But he started to compose things without melodies, with a few chords and lacking inspiration, lacking form, and the worst thing is that every composer working under him or who learned with him (and they are A LOT) imitated that. He imposed a fashion with that, and so, following the trend and going the easy way, now everyone does that.
So, in a way, Hans Zimmer is to blame for all this nonsensical soundtracks in Hollywood these days.
And that is sad, because he used to be one of the best and he has in his discography some real masterpieces.

[X]

Incubus, how could you forget about one of the most important songs in Bram Stoker's Dracula;

Bram Stoker's Dracula movie soundtrack "The Storm"

I think this tune would go well with Castlevania.

[Flame]

developers must adapt to us, and not the other way around.

Developers have visions too. It's not JUST about what the audience wants, sometimes the developer wants to make their own vision on something. And despite LoS being divisive, it WAS successful, meaning that there WAS an audience for that vision.

[Lelygax]

Im not she, but I think that she meant that we are not obligated to accept everything that they send at us with a smile. They need to hear our feedbacks more often and adapt if necessary or otherwise people will stop being blind fans (not everyone, Im talking about these really fanatic that buy even the worst and plan to continue buying until they bankrupt, even if these games are bad) and boycott their games until they get better.

[Shiroi Koumori]

I hope that the developers that lurk here see all our opinions. 

You are right Lely, as consumers, we vote with our money.

[Inccubus]

Well, post one music with melody then. I think it would be a better example than one that sounds like almost anything in LoS soundtrack.

Van Helsing soundtrack track four Journey to Transylvania

Van Helsing soundtrack elleven Final battle

There are lots of strong melodies throughout the soundtrack. They are short but they are at least recognizable and some repeat in various places. This is still a movie soundtrack after all.

Incubus, how could you forget about one of the most important songs in Bram Stoker's Dracula;

Bram Stoker's Dracula movie soundtrack "The Storm"

I think this tune would go well with Castlevania.

And there are more! :3