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Offline Inccubus

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OK. So we finally got an official timeline in the Hyrule Historia source book last year. Anyone else thinks that it seems  bit... "wrong"?

If you haven't seen it yet this is it:



After reading most of the book I'm still left with some doubt as to how well this was actually thought out. My primary problems are the entire idea of an alternate reality based on a game over at a particular point in Ocarina of time that is never played out in the game and the placement of the Minish Cap, Four Swords, and Four Swords Adventure.

Starting with the "Hero Defeated" alternate timeline. This seems like a cop out. It's like they couldn't come up with a good way to connect that branch with the rest of the games. Personally I can't say that I really have a better alternative. The problem is that there many inconsistencies between the Imprisoning War mentioned in the intro of Zelda 3 and the events of OoT. I have heard that Four Swords Adventure was originally intended to be the Sealing War and this has been somewhat supported by text from the game that was cut. It has been said that Shigeru Miyamoto thought the game was too close to Zelda 3 and wanted it to be more interesting. If true then that seems to be the point from which the game started getting the Four Sword related features. I still need to research sources for this, but it is well documented that Miyamoto-san is more concerned with game play than plot and timeline issues.

As for the placement of the Four Swords related games it just seems wrong. Primarily because of the absence of the Master Sword and Triforce and the inclusion of force gems in some other games. Here's the thing, I've heard arguments for and against the placement of Minish Cap and Four Swords between Skyward Sword and Ocarina of Time. Honestly, the arguments against just make more sense because of them completely ignoring the Triforce and the Master Sword. It just feels shoehorned here. It would make more sense for those games and Four Sword Adventure to happen in a spot where the Triforce and the Master Sword have been sealed away and no one knows about them any more. Namely, after The Wind Waker.

Here's what makes a lot more sense to me:

Skyward Sword -----> Ocarina of Time -> (Split Timeline)

Ocarina of Time (Adult Timeline) ---> Wind Waker -> Spirit Tracks ---> The Minish Cap ---> Four Swords ---> Four Swords Adventure

Ocarina of Time (Child Timeline) -> Majora's Mask ---> Twilight Princess

Ocarina of Time (Alt. Timeline) ---> A Link to the Past --> A Link Between Worlds  ---> Legend of Zelda -> Adventure of Link -> Oracles -> Link's Awakening

You can see here that I rearranged the Alternate timeline some. The reason for this is that all that crap in Link's Awakening about Link from Zelda 3 leaving to go training is bullshit made up by Nintendo of America (I seriously hate it when the US offices make shit up) and the Triforce's three parts are split up some time before LoZ and are only brought back together after AoL. Plus the Triforce parts are still separate at the beginning of the Oracle games and the game ends with Link sailing home to Hyrule on a ship which is how LA starts.

Even with the official timeline "explaining" why they chose the order they did (they really do a rotten job of it) there are still tons of inconsistencies that point to the unavoidable conclusion that made all this shit up some time around the production of Ocarina of Time and never really put much thought into the timeline at all before then. It seems pretty half-assed, too. Many of the connections they make in Hyrule Historia are only because they said so in that text without much of anything in the games concretely supporting those decisions.

Then there's Twilight Princess which almost seems like it was supposed to bridge the gap between OoT and tWW. But that doesn't really work if for no other reason that Ganondorf is defeated at the end. Honestly, this game is a bit of a mess. You have the ghost of a the Hero of Time who never passed on his skills which points to it being connected to an alternate reality where he was defeated. You have Ganondorf being tried and being sealed away which points to the child ending in OoT. If they had used the Dark World instead of the Twilight Realm, then it would have made a lot more sense and it could lead into ALttP without much issue.

So pretty much everything surrounding OoT, as far as the timeline is concerned, is a bit of a cluster fuck. There are a lot of translation efforts that have been and are being worked on throughout the interwebz that sheds some light on some of these issues, but I haven't even begun to delve into all of that. But suffice to say there were some really shitty translations even up to the point of Twilight Princess. Interlopers? There were no "Interlopers" in the original Japanese script they are just normal Hylian magic users who got greedy!

So what do you guys think? What are some of your theories? What can you point out to support or debunk my timeline or the official one?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 12:21:28 AM by Inccubus »
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Offline Ratty

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Well I'm glad to know that somewhere out there there's a series with a more convoluted timeline than Castlevania. I have the Hyrule Historia but haven't read it much aside from this much-touted timeline section. Mostly because, honestly, I haven't played many Zelda games and was hoping for more of an artbook. As a very casual Zelda fan I'm content with just seeing the majority of entries in the series as a retelling/re-imagining of the same events. But good luck and happy hunting on this search for a plausible timeline! As the book observes you'll probably need it when the next game is released and throws a wrench in whatever timeline you come up with.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 01:38:43 AM by Ratty »

Offline X

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It really is a mess the Zelda series and I have to wonder what Shigeru Miyamoto was thinking. Rather then continuing forward with the series he chose to go further and further back in time. This led to the mess we are now left with. Personally the only true games of the timeline that I recognize are A Link To The Past aka Triforce of the Gods, Link's Awakening, The Legend of Zelda and Zelda 2: The Adventures of Link (in that order). Every other game that has come since then hasn't really felt Zelda=ish to me. I've played them all (OoT the most), but in the end I will only recognize the aforementioned 4. All the other games happen in a universe of there own and do not interfere or have any ties to the other 4 games, and that suits me just fine.

PS Inccubus, what is the true story for Link's Awakening? If not the ones American fans have already known then what is it? I'm curious now.
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Two good things about Zelda's timeline are that:
* They don't care much about it, and they just make great new games every time, keeping the essence of the franchise and adding a little detail to the timeline that is not that important, anyway.
* They have plenty of timeline to go forward to make new games, so there's no risk they will find themselves trapped with no space in the timeline to make new games, like it happened with CV (according to some fans, not to me; I think there's plenty of space to make like 10 games in CV's canon and infinite possibilities in the gaiden).
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Offline Lelygax

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Thats a perfect example of fans being so silly to understand when to stop. A timeline never existed to begin with, they only did one so fans could shut up and leave them rest a bit. I've ever said that a timeline doesnt existed since fans started trying to make one and this book is a proof, since it doesnt do a good job IMO.

Some titles could be really connected, but not all of them. Trying to connect every title in a timeline is like trying to put a square block into a hole made for round blocks, it is possible but only if you break another parts destroying your toy.
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Thats a perfect example of fans being so silly to understand when to stop. A timeline never existed to begin with, they only did one so fans could shut up and leave them rest a bit. I've ever said that a timeline doesnt existed since fans started trying to make one and this book is a proof, since it doesnt do a good job IMO.

Some titles could be really connected, but not all of them. Trying to connect every title in a timeline is like trying to put a square block into a hole made for round blocks, it is possible but only if you break another parts destroying your toy.
Exactly. And I don't know why a timeline is so important for most fans.
I like the Castlevania canon because I like the game, I don't care if it makes sense, if it's a mess or not, I just need the games to be games I like, and, top, every individual story to be good.
I really don't care about a general timeline.

Circle of the Moon, Legacy of Darkness, Legends... One of the best 2D, one of the best MetroidVanias, the best 3D... and they are not "canon".
So, why would I care?
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Offline Lelygax

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Yes, thats why I want the old canon back too, I like the old timeline but I could live without it (but please, end it before). What I really want are games like the old ones.
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Offline Inccubus

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Well Miyamoto-san is on record as not being very concerned with the over-all plot of the series. Plus Hyrule Historia pretty much has a disclaimer about inconsistencies by way of pointing out that the point of view is one of looking back on past events that have become legend.
That said, I still think they did a sloppy half-assed job of it.

At the end of the day the games being fun is what's most important, but trying to piece together a fictional history is fun for some of us too. And for me it's an interesting exercise in constructing a timeline for a game series.

PS Inccubus, what is the true story for Link's Awakening? If not the ones American fans have already known then what is it? I'm curious now.

Whoops! I seem to have remembered that exactly backwards! :P
OK. The US manual mentions Ganon's ashes which was a prominent part of the Story of AoL. That bit which connects it to AoL was made up by NoA.
The only thing both manuals say is that this Link previously defeated Ganon. At the time the game was made there were only 3 other games in the series.
Since AoL is the direct sequel to LoZ then LA can only have come either between ALttP and LoZ or after AoL. There really isn't anything concrete to place it distinctly after either.
Fast forward to the Oracle games. At the beginning of both games the Triforce is split into 3 parts. This Link meets Impa and Zelda for the first time. And in the true ending this Link is implied to be leaving Hyrule by ship. This tells me a few things.

First, OoA & OoS are pretty concretely prequels to LA.

Second, LA can't be the direct sequel of either ALttP or AoL because the Links in those games have already met their respective Zeldas and the AoL Link had already met the LoZ Impa.

Third, as far as I'm aware the Triforce is whole and resting in the Sacred Land at the end of ALttP, and had been split up prior to the events of LoZ and AoL. Given that the Triforce is split at the beginning of OoA/OoS it makes most sense to me to place all three games after LA.
And I think the new game that is coming out will support this even more for one simple reason; the Japanese title of A Link Between Worlds is "The Legend of Zelda: Triforce of the Gods 2". In other words, ALttP2. Also, it has been stated that ALBW takes place 6 generations after ALttP. On the other hand, this game also features a Dark World which is itself a bit of a monkey wrench without some damn good explanation for it.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 07:01:42 PM by Inccubus »
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At the end of the day the games being fun is what's most important, but trying to piece together a fictional history is fun for some of us too. And for me it's an interesting exercise in constructing a timeline for a game series.
Oh, but of course! I didn't mean what I said as an offense.
It is funny to me also, I've found myself a couple years ago replaying all CV games in timeline order. It's a nice plus. But I've seen some fans (especially on other websites when I'm not a member because people fights and fights and fights and that's all they do), but as I said, I've seen some fans become literally crazy over a timeline and different explanations on them, not exactly the CV one.
I think that here we do a decent job of being civilized, passionate yet rational fans who can get along and debate without fighting.
I respect the fact that some fans consider the timeline to be important. I just don't consider it to be so important as other people do (with all their right to do it, I'm now the owner of the truth or anything to that effect).
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Offline Inccubus

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Indeed! :3
We're not like some Sonic fans! :P

Some of the debates about the Zelda timeline I've heard have gotten pretty heated on some boards.
Right now I'm reading a couple of threads about a retranslation of Twilight Princess that is shedding a lot of light on things.

Some examples:
Oocca = Sky-people
Twilight Realm = shadow world (And is described as the antithesis of Hyrule, sound familiar? Dark World anyone?)
Interlopers = Don't exist, they're just mages that wield shadow magic in the original text.
Twili = Doesn't exist, they're only referred to as shadows or the shadow clan.
And interestingly, Hyrule itself is constantly referred to as the Holy Land or the Sacred Realm.

Twilight Princess' localization seems to be a huge mess with many instances of mistranslation and unnecessary changes.
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Offline Ratty

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Some examples:
Oocca = Sky-people
Twilight Realm = shadow world (And is described as the antithesis of Hyrule, sound familiar? Dark World anyone?)
Interlopers = Don't exist, they're just mages that wield shadow magic in the original text.
Twili = Doesn't exist, they're only referred to as shadows or the shadow clan.
And interestingly, Hyrule itself is constantly referred to as the Holy Land or the Sacred Realm.

Twilight Princess' localization seems to be a huge mess with many instances of mistranslation and unnecessary changes.

How strange, I quite enjoyed the gamecube version of Twilight Princess so I'd be interested in learning about all these changes. Also I don't know what particular Sonic fans you're talking about but boy... that fandom is a mess. Largely because of the way the series was localized with many different stories attached to it leading to different "factions" in the fandom*. Combine that with the furries, furry haters and the mix of old players who hate the new games and kids who only know the new games and you've got a perfect e-drama storm.

*Full disclosure: I'm one of those people who only care about one or two particular versions of the Sonic backstory. But I outgrew the need to fight people about which canon is "the best" fairly quickly I think, while some have been going at it since the 90s.

PS- I actually remember someone saying on a Sonic forum once that they were raising their children "properly", by which I mean telling them to hate the new games and only like the old ones. Sheesh.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 12:24:50 AM by Ratty »

Offline Inccubus

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Offline X

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Quote
PS- I actually remember someone saying on a Sonic forum once that they were raising their children "properly", by which I mean telling them to hate the new games and only like the old ones. Sheesh.

LOL, WTF?!? Are they insane in the membrane??
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Offline Inccubus

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« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 01:29:56 AM by Inccubus »
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Oh yes, some people become insane about trivial stuff.

As for myself, I enjoy both old and new Sonic games, with some exceptions. I like 1, 2, 3, Knuckles, 4 episodes 1 and 2, Generations, Unleashed, I am OK with Rush, Rush Adventure, Secret Rings, Black Knight, Heroes, I am not so OK with Rivals 1 and 2 and Shadow the Hedgehog, and I dislike Sonic for PS3, Colours and, from what I've seen so far, I won't like Lost World.

But that's just my personal taste, I can't understand how people can be so hateful to teach their sons to hate something. It's like when I was little my mom was telling me to like the Atari games because she loved them, and to hate the Playstation. It's so stupid, and sad...
Now I'm tired, eternally walking... forever dying, and never stopping. I feel in sorrow, all I see is white. I’m following a blind way beneath a sad sky.


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