Topic: Ideal Castlevania

[Intersection]

Exactly. And also not all steroid barbarians. Los might not be the ideal Castlevania... but its the what the series need at the moment. Something new after Los would be awesome. I just hope its not Iga...

Certainly not. Lords of Shadow never was what Castlevania needed -- it wasn't then, and it isn't now.

With Lords of Shadow, MercurySteam chose to throw twenty-five years' worth of gaming excellence straight out of the window, all for the benefit of its "bold, new vision" of a series it didn't even understand. Instead of seeking to appreciate and learn from the vast heritage of the series whose mantle it was asked to bear, MercurySteam set foot in Castlevania believing that it should change everything it could lay its hands on, naively convinced, like an apprentice mechanic trying to operate a Ferrari, that it was "fixing" a broken series. And that's how Lords of Shadow came into being: Instead of bringing us the natural culmination of three decades of evolution, Lords of Shadow only yielded the first steps of a fledgling developer into a new genre -- first steps which, no matter how promising they might have been, would ultimately fall far short of what could, and should, have been expected from the franchise. Instead of organically combining past elements from the series with a new, imaginative set of ideas (something which every successful reboot to date has managed to achieve), Lords of Shadow ended up looking like a strange, distorted mirror-image of what Castlevania could have been.
And to top it off, you're entirely right, Esteban; Lords of Shadow isn't a copy of SoTN. It's a carbon copy of every single major franchise in the modern market, except for the very franchise from which it should have drawn its inspiration: Castlevania. As excellent as I believe it to be, Lords of Shadow ultimately has its heart in the wrong place.

[EstebanT]

If you don't think castlevania needed fixing.... You are in denial.

Games between order of ecclesia and Lords of Shadow:

Castlevania: Judgment.
The Medal
Pachislot 1
Pachislot 2
The Arcade
The adventure Rebirth.
Encore of the night
Harmony of despair

You know what they all had in common? They were all shit. Those games made even fans like me give up on the series for a bit. But lords of shadow is at least making the series still relevant in modern gaming. It might not have been the game we wanted but we sure as fuck needed it. We need more fans if we want the series to continue existing. The next team hopefully will do better than Mercurysteam.

[e105beta]

Pachislot 1
Pachislot 2

You know what they all had in common? They were all shit.

Don't hate on my Pachislot.

At least Kojima did the character design and Yamane did the music. That makes it 100,000,000x better than LoS

/s

But really, though, Castlevania: The Adventure Rebirth was good. Did you really think it was shit?

[Nagumo]

When looking at that list, it appears you have more of a problem with the direction those games took rather than quality, because aside from Judgment and maybe Harmony of Despair (PSN Store Special Award says hello!) not any of those games are particulary poor. The fact that The Arcade is on there breaks my heart. And how could the Pachislots be considered poor in anyway? They're slotmachines with lots of effort put into them. Aside from that, they're just spin-offs. There are indicative of the series' popularity, and not relevant at all to the question if the series needs fixing or not. I mean, just be glad that they were made in the first place and the series could branch out a bit.         

[e105beta]

And how could the Pachislots be considered poor in anyway? They're slotmachines with lots of effort put into them. Aside from that, they're just spin-offs. There are indicative of the series' popularity, and not relevant at all to the question if the series needs fixing or not. I mean, just be glad that they were made in the first place and the series could branch out a bit.       

Maybe that's the problem? Seeing all the budget issues IGA was running into by the end of his previous Castlevania tenure, perhaps it would have been better if they had spent the money they spent on those Pachislot games on the core games.

I mean, spin offs are fine when your series is at its peak, but when your series is losing both name recognition and audience with every release, creating slot machine games (an industry where, speaking from experience, game facade is fairly arbitrary in the long run) for a market that doesn't contain your primary player base isn't a sign of popularity, it's an easy cash in.

[Dracula9]

That. Only with a really good plot and post-game goodies. But gameplay-wise, that's it for me.

[EstebanT]

I have many different problems with these games.
I don't think the series are heading in a good direction if they aren't available to most players. I mean, how many people have actually played the arcade, the medal or the slot games? We seriously went form Symphony of the Night redefining a genere to slot machines and puzzle games on the Iphone? Why not spend money making good games intead of Japan only spinoffs?

Yes, Yamane did some of the music in the slot games, but they were mostly all ripped from other games. All the sprites and backgrounds were ripped from other games in Harmony of Despair and Encore of the Night. I don't like Konami being lazy about the games they make.

The Arcade didnt even bother to name its characters... but at least it has good music.

e105beta, I guess The Adventure was ok, nothing different or groundbreaking but it wasnt bad. But surely you dont think its better than Lords of Shadow do you? Games that stick to the same thing for 25+ years die out.

And Nagumo, i could say the same to you about the lords of shadow series, just be glad that they were made in the first place and the series could branch out a bit.

[Intersection]

You know what they all had in common? They were all shit. Those games made even fans like me give up on the series for a bit. But lords of shadow is at least making the series still relevant in modern gaming. It might not have been the game we wanted but we sure as fuck needed it. We need more fans if we want the series to continue existing. The next team hopefully will do better than Mercurysteam.

Most of the games you're citing are minor spin-offs, and these are usually indicative, if anything, of a series' popularity -- they don't have anything to do with general gaming quality.

Judgment? An unqualified failure. But the project had a 6-month deadline, and was steamrolled under Konami's business imperatives. That's still no excuse for the game to exist, but it's something to consider. In any case, every great developer is allowed to make mistakes in their time.

Harmony of Despair? I'd actually enjoyed it. I know that everything in it points towards mediocrity, but I actually had fun playing it -- and its multiplayer was a blast. In the end, that's all that a game truly needs for me to put it into my "decent" list. It brought back the classic CV mechanics I'd always loved, and allowed many players to join in on the fun; and while the game seriously lacked depth and purpose, it was interesting in its own right.

And Rebirth? I don't understand. That was a good game...

By the way: you're forgetting DXC. And, of course, you're omitting every IGA game before OoE -- I understand that you've done so to prove your point, but that just goes to show that you don't really have one. IGA has given us a lot more than what you give him credit for.

[Dracula9]

Well, that's half the problem.

If you spend so much time complaining about how bad the bad ones are, and give little to no attention to the genuinely good ones that have been made in the same general timespan (coughcoughRebirthcoughcough), then there's not really any room to discern collectively what the ideal Castlevania would be.

It's mostly why I left the fandom for a while. Too many people throwing tantrums over how bad Lords was and too few people acknowledging that it's at least a fucking continuance of the series.

I mean, is it really so bad for a series to have less-than-perfect releases? Count your blessings Konami still cares enough about the Castlevania series to make more of them. At least it hasn't suffered the route of the Megaman franchise.

Edit: Sorry, but I'm going to call you out on this one.

Games that stick to the same thing for 25+ years die out.

Mario: Run through colorful stages, get powerups, go into pipes, and jump on shit.
Sonic: Run fast, beat the time limit, get the rings. Stop the fat guy from getting the jewels.
Pokemon: Catch 'em all. Beat the other kids'.
Metroid: Go through alien planet. Get weapons and stuff. Kill stuff. Go backtracking and get more stuff and kill stronger stuff.
Every MMO: Smack this thing with a stick until you have enough stats to smack differently-coloered things with different-colored sticks.
Final Fantasy: Start off in small, non-secular perspective. Kill a bunch of stuff. Gain sudden worldview and go save it from the big scary thing. Ride the adorable yellow birds. Kweh.
Megaman: You're blue. Or some other primary color. Go shoot/slash/smack stuff until you beat [recurring antagonist with recurring motives]. Ignore that it's all but dead now. This applies.
Every racing game. Be faster than the other guys.
Grand Theft Auto: Do illegal stuff. Don't get caught. If you get caught blow stuff up. Or you can sandbox. Whichever.
Every fighter: Be better at button pushing than the opponent. Learning the technical stuff like juggles and chaining is largely irrelevant. Just hit them in the knee eighty-six times.
Most noticeably, every Castlevania: Whip stuff. Find Dracula. Whip Dracula. If you have no whip use whatever else. If there is no Dracula go whip the guys having a party in his house.

Okay, maybe those weren't all 25+ years old, but my point still stands. Stop generalizing to have some semblance of a point. You have the completely wrong attitude for this, IMO.

[Nagumo]

Maybe that's the problem? Seeing all the budget issues IGA was running into by the end of his previous Castlevania tenure, perhaps it would have been better if they had spent the money they spent on those Pachislot games on the core games.

I mean, spin offs are fine when your series is at its peak, but when your series is losing both name recognition and audience with every release, creating slot machine games (an industry where, speaking from experience, game facade is fairly arbitrary in the long run) for a market that doesn't contain your primary player base isn't a sign of popularity, it's an easy cash in.

Budget has nothing to do with it. IGA himself said every Castlevania game has an above average budget.

Also, all this talk about the Pachislots are such a cash-in just shows how ignorant the fanbase can be at times. These Pachislots were created for arcades in Japan, which are still very popular over there, meaning it's still intented at gamers. Most likely a lot of the primary fanbase in Japan also visits arcades. Therefore, it's actually a good business decision and not a cash in at all.

[e105beta]

Budget has nothing to do with it. IGA himself said every Castlevania game has an above average budget.

Also, all this talk about the Pachislots are such a cash-in just shows how ignorant the fanbase can be at times. These Pachislots were created for arcades in Japan, which are still very popular over there, meaning it's still intented at gamers. Most likely a lot of the primary fanbase in Japan also visits arcades. Therefore, it's actually a good business decision and not a cash in at all.

If that's true, then I can see exactly why he's off the series. He was given above average budgets and judging by game sales, turned minor profits.

And saying the Pachislots aren't a cash-in because arcades are popular in Japan is incorrect. The pachislots are a cash-in precisely because arcades are popular in Japan. It's a gambling machine. There's very little game design behind it outside of making the facade look attractive. It's a safe investment in a reliable market using a historied name on a game that has almost nothing to do with the source material aside from visuals. That's the definition of a cash-in.

So I'll agree it's a good business decision, but it doesn't do anything to counter EstebanT's point that Castlevania needed an update to remain relevant in modern gaming. When the best you can do is make spin-offs in a secondary market, you're not relevant. You're losing relevancy.

EDIT: And EstebanT, well, I can't say that it's better than LoS, but I can't say that it's worse. I love Classicvanias, so it was a great release for me. It satisfied a different urge I guess.

[Intersection]

I don't really work along the "better than/worse than LoS" lines. These are almost radically different games, and they aren't truly comparable: like e105beta said, they satisfy different urges.
I can only truly comment on their adherence to the general Castlevania spirit, and in that respect I'm leaning towards CVA.

By the way, was Kojima involved in the art of all three Pachislot CV's? The first was an obvious CoD derivative, but I'm not sure about the rest.

[EstebanT]

Edit: Sorry, but I'm going to call you out on this one.Mario: Run through colorful stages, get powerups, go into pipes, and jump on shit.
Sonic: Run fast, beat the time limit, get the rings. Stop the fat guy from getting the jewels.
Pokemon: Catch 'em all. Beat the other kids'.
Metroid: Go through alien planet. Get weapons and stuff. Kill stuff. Go backtracking and get more stuff and kill stronger stuff.
Every MMO: Smack this thing with a stick until you have enough stats to smack differently-coloered things with different-colored sticks.
Final Fantasy: Start off in small, non-secular perspective. Kill a bunch of stuff. Gain sudden worldview and go save it from the big scary thing. Ride the adorable yellow birds. Kweh.
Megaman: You're blue. Or some other primary color. Go shoot/slash/smack stuff until you beat [recurring antagonist with recurring motives]. Ignore that it's all but dead now. This applies.
Every racing game. Be faster than the other guys.
Grand Theft Auto: Do illegal stuff. Don't get caught. If you get caught blow stuff up. Or you can sandbox. Whichever.
Every fighter: Be better at button pushing than the opponent. Learning the technical stuff like juggles and chaining is largely irrelevant. Just hit them in the knee eighty-six times.
Most noticeably, every Castlevania: Whip stuff. Find Dracula. Whip Dracula. If you have no whip use whatever else. If there is no Dracula go whip the guys having a party in his house.

Okay, maybe those weren't all 25+ years old, but my point still stands. Stop generalizing to have some semblance of a point. You have the completely wrong attitude for this, IMO.

The examples you've provided really do not drive your point at all. Mario, first of all, has been branching out as far as genre and innovating its gameplay for a very long time. From the SNES Mario Kart to Super Mario Galaxy, these games have been extremely successful and kept the franchise fresh with new experiences to enjoy. However, people HAVE been complaining lately about Mario's repetitive nature so even an extremely well-established franchise can become stale. I'm not going to address every example you provide because most of them are either dying or dead franchises, held by a thread by DeviantArt weirdos, or, in the case of fighters or racing games, aren't particularly memorable even if they are done well as a result of the excessive amounts of them dished out through the years.

Should I really be content with Castlevania becoming another throwaway time-waster like a fighting game? Even if Rebirth wasn't bad, does it really have the same magic that SotN did? SotN is an iconic game associated with a certain era and the only other Castlevania game that comes close to holding that same weight is LoS. Regardless, I've already acknowledged my love for Iga's games (before & including OOE - Which also includes DXC). I think most of them were well-done in their own right and I continue to play them today. I'm certainly not focusing solely on the negatives.

My initial point was that the series was on a steady path to stagnation after OoE and the only thing truly pumping life back into Castlevania's veins is LoS. It surely would have faded into obscurity had someone not made some drastic changes.

[e105beta]

I don't really work along the "better than/worse than LoS" lines. These are almost radically different games, and they aren't truly comparable: like e105beta said, they satisfy different urges.
I can only truly comment on their adherence to the general Castlevania spirit, and in that respect I'm leaning towards CVA.

By the way, was Kojima involved in the art of all three Pachislot CV's? The first was an obvious CoD derivative, but I'm not sure about the rest.

All the games were derivative of CoD Trevor Belmont and his adventures, and as such used his design, which was designed by Kojima. However, the studio was KPE, and a lot of the art has a "We're apeing Kojima" feel, so I don't think she was actively working on the team, they just used her art as the baseline.

Mario: Run through colorful stages, get powerups, go into pipes, and jump on shit.
Sonic: Run fast, beat the time limit, get the rings. Stop the fat guy from getting the jewels.
Pokemon: Catch 'em all. Beat the other kids'.
Metroid: Go through alien planet. Get weapons and stuff. Kill stuff. Go backtracking and get more stuff and kill stronger stuff.
Every MMO: Smack this thing with a stick until you have enough stats to smack differently-coloered things with different-colored sticks.
Final Fantasy: Start off in small, non-secular perspective. Kill a bunch of stuff. Gain sudden worldview and go save it from the big scary thing. Ride the adorable yellow birds. Kweh.
Megaman: You're blue. Or some other primary color. Go shoot/slash/smack stuff until you beat [recurring antagonist with recurring motives]. Ignore that it's all but dead now. This applies.
Every racing game. Be faster than the other guys.
Grand Theft Auto: Do illegal stuff. Don't get caught. If you get caught blow stuff up. Or you can sandbox. Whichever.
Every fighter: Be better at button pushing than the opponent. Learning the technical stuff like juggles and chaining is largely irrelevant. Just hit them in the knee eighty-six times.
Most noticeably, every Castlevania: Whip stuff. Find Dracula. Whip Dracula. If you have no whip use whatever else. If there is no Dracula go whip the guys having a party in his house.

What's your point? LoS fits your description of Castlevania to the bill, but the point is that people accuse it of being too different.

Besides, a lot of the series have seen very large aesthetic changes (Final Fantasy), are dying off (Megaman), have seen very significant gameplay changes (Metroid, Sonic), or have been criticized for being same-ish (Mario, Final Fantasy, etc).

[Nagumo]

I see a cash in as more the primary fanbase doesn't really want but is made anyway to make a quick buck. I it got released over nobody would give a damn because arcades died out here since the '90s. But in Japan, most gamers also visits arcades, so I could see Castlevania over there genuinely excited to play it. Sure, it's a safe investment and it uses a famous name, but it's not like any care was put in the product or doesn't appeal to the Japanese fanbase at all. I'm just disagreeing it's a soulles product purely made for money's sake. For what it is, it's appears to be very exciting. So it rubs me the wrong way when people don't judge it fairly.

I'm not arguing against Castlevania needing an update by the way. Just that these spin-offs were the reason Castlevania was somehow ruined and needed a reboot. Lords was in production before any of them were made, so they obviously aren't related. Also we both agreed the Pachislots helped the series. Since two sequels got made it means they did something right after all.

@EstebanT
I take it that last comment was supposed to be a comeback at me? I'm actually happy Lords opened up the series for change. That doesn't mean I don't think the reboot could have been done better, though.