Topic: Disappointment about new Castlevanias:bitterness, nostalgy, or legitimate view?

[zangetsu468]

You hit on something there and i just wanted to highlight something about it.

SOTN, did do a few big things and still manage to be a huge success. The game was much easier. The game was a metroid style rpg. The plot was changed in a very drastic fashion. And it did manage to bring in a new fan base that expected to see metroidvania style games. It was a huge success, even among the classic Castlevania fans. Now here is the rub.. And the reason i started a thread asking if people would give this game up if things would have remained the same.

Fans of the classic Castlevania games were ready for a break. It felt good to play an easy Castlevania game for a change. I admit that.. But SOTN was designed to be a one hit wonder. Sorry to tell everybody the truth here. That's why the system started to fail after this game. How many super easy, hack n slash, simple as dirt, rpg style games did they think they could make before people would just lose interest? The answer? Not many. It went downhill and never looked back.

The classic Castlevania style held up for many reasons. Difficulty is a major part of the formula. Difficulty gives a game replay value. These reasons are not present in SOTN, especially difficulty. Nor are they present in any other modern Castlevania title that was not just a remake of a classic game.

This is absolute rubbish imo. The metroidvanias varied in difficulty and out of them, one could say 3-4 of the games were easy. COTM was more difficult than a lot of the older CV games (with the exception of CV III), the next 2 iterations were fairly easy, Dawn was average, but harder than AOS and Julius mode was much harder. POR and OOE had an extremely hard difficulty for the average gamer with Level 1 max cap hard. Out of the 2, particularly with OOE, I debate that enemy and platform placement were most notable on the hardest difficulty. The only major difference between the 2 styles of gaming are the rpg elements and save points rather than levels. To say these games weren't designed to be difficult is just untrue. Iga even mentioned this mode prior to POR's release in EGM.

If you think simply that because it's not the default setting of the game that it wasn't designed with this intention, you are mistaken. It's not just CV, every gaming franchise which wants to be/remain big/commercial have incorporated an easy setting (even Mario games are now using Nobbit and white tanooki) The point being that if this ever was a downside or an issue, Konami did correct this by incorporating that difficulty in POR and OOE. Particularly when you don't play as the main protagonist and can't use potions etc, for most people, they wouldn't be able to complete those modes. In conclusion I don't see this as a valid argument, you can argue 3-4 of the Metroidvanias were easier than previous Classicvanias, but certainly not all of them. (That's like saying Muramasa for the Wii is easy, then you find out you have Shigurui mode.)

Metroidvania was contemporary CV, now that has become LOS, later it will become something else. It couldn't just be static and never try anything new, this alone would have killed the series.

[Viskod]

Yes sir. Thats exactly why i figured both sides of the fan base had to be in on it.

Just imagine a SOTN style game with the side scrolling difficulty of VS Castlevania. And with a belmont as the lead character. Meat in the walls that you can only get one time between save states. Open exploration? No. Survival exploration

What about the Castlevania fans that enjoy the Lords of Shadow series, and the new fans that series created? Why leave them out?

[zangetsu468]

What about the Castlevania fans that enjoy the Lords of Shadow series, and the new fans that series created? Why leave them out?

Yes exactly, what about them? And the initial comment by Morning Star is redundant. SOTN had the platforming of classicvanias to an extent. However, things like stair climbing, rigid slow movement, and actual pits which cause instant death, had to be omitted... Why? Because a SOTN game with Classic gameplay becomes, yep you guessed it... SIMON'S QUEST.

As charming as the game is, it's incredibly taxing moving this slowly with no warps through an open world/ Castle. In games like Sotn, Super Metroid etc you need to be able to move freely through the map (running with wolf spell, flying with bat spell, using superjump etc) Otherwise the levels would just end up being linear or you'd run into dead ends. Anyone is free to believe what they want, but playing SOTN with Simon from CV sounds like absolute horseshit... What a horrible fucking night to have a curse.

[Viskod]

I dunno, I enjoyed playing the game as Richter and Maria. Why couldn't Simon have a super jump or a dash or a slide?

[zangetsu468]

I dunno, I enjoyed playing the game as Richter and Maria. Why couldn't Simon have a super jump or a dash or a slide?

He could, just like Richter in SOTN, which is exactly what I'm saying. Putting the gameplay of SCIV into a SOTN environment doesn't really work - as was suggested by a previous poster.. Gameplay will always be tweaked to suit the environment.

[theANdROId]

Open exploration? No. Survival exploration

Definitely sounds interesting!

Because a SOTN game with Classic gameplay becomes, yep you guessed it... SIMON'S QUEST.

I don't think it quite has to be like that.  The way I imagine what he's suggesting, the game would have exploration, platforming, and challenge, yet still play smoothly, have warps...whatever sort of things make it NOT Simon's Quest.  I doubt it would be so rigid and slow.  Morning Star only said the difficulty of classic style, not the graphics and mechanics of it.  While it might be insanely difficult to get the two (or three, if we were to include LoS fans too) factions to wholeheartedly agree, there is still potential for a dynamite game combining some of the better elements of each style.

[zangetsu468]

Definitely sounds interesting!

I don't think it quite has to be like that.  The way I imagine what he's suggesting, the game would have exploration, platforming, and challenge, yet still play smoothly, have warps...whatever sort of things make it NOT Simon's Quest.  I doubt it would be so rigid and slow.  Morning Star only said the difficulty of classic style, not the graphics and mechanics of it.  While it might be insanely difficult to get the two (or three, if we were to include LoS fans too) factions to wholeheartedly agree, there is still potential for a dynamite game combining some of the better elements of each style.

A significant part of the difficulty of Classicvania titles were the mechanics/ gameplay, the other part was the actual level design itself. Added that if you died enough on a level, you start at the beginning.
I'm not saying it absolutely can't be done, I'm saying that it doesn't work, I'm saying that contemporary controls for a metroidvania will always make it easier than a classicvania. Unless the controls are all that and they crank the difficulty of the platforming etc up so high, which not all fans would necessarily be cool with. Bring it on though!

[theANdROId]

It's been awhile since I've played a classic (or anything really...unfortunately).  I'd forgotten how much the mechanics affected the platforming...so you're right on that account for sure.  Smoother controls and play made platforming easier.  Still, it sounds like a really neat idea if it could be carefully and intelligently done.

Actually, part of his idea reminds me a little of Joachim and Pumpkin modes in LoI and Trevor mode in CoD.  Picking up any potions or health items used them immediately, which makes the player play more cautiously...well, it did for me at least.  I remember paying much more attention to my health, and planning my attacks and dodges much more deliberately.

[Shinobi]

Death pits might be working on Metroidvania but more forgivable like Lords of shadows, when you fall you will go back to the last platform with some life deduction.

[Flame]

Death pits might be working on Metroidvania but more forgivable like Lords of shadows, when you fall you will go back to the last platform with some life deduction.

At that point why bother with death pits at all. why not just make it fall damage.

[xscientist5000]

LOS2
Music?!
Graphics are amazing
Gameplay is good
Platforming is same as LOS1 but watered down
Story is interesting until the ridiculous ending

[Shinobi]

At that point why bother with death pits at all. why not just make it fall damage.

Ok granted fall damage.

[uzo]

At that point why bother with death pits at all. why not just make it fall damage.

Probably so they don't have to make a spot under it that you need to climb back out of.

Though I prefer harder platforming without the punishment of damage when you fail. Climbing back up sucks enough to be a worthy punishment, lol.

[GuyStarwind]

I'm kinda in this late but I'm in full support of pits or fall damage in any CV game. It drives me nuts when I'd fall from some high place and not even get hurt. Call me weird that I want this but I do.

[theANdROId]

I know it's not realistic at all, but I like NOT taking damage from crazy-long falls.  I always jump from them and imagine some scene from some movie where the hero/villain makes a crazy jump like that, hits the ground (which crumbles under the sheer-awesomeness), and walks away like, "Yeah!  Whatcha gonna do now?!"  I can't remember what movie I'm picturing though...I'm sure it's been used a few times.

And personally, I think it's even cooler in the few titles where the main character has that echo behind them (or whatever it'd be called).