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Offline theplottwist

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Re: Koji Igarashi Leaves Konami, Founding New Studio, Metroidvania GDC
« Reply #150 on: March 17, 2014, 07:34:40 PM »
0
P.S. Iga, not every character has to have white hair. Leon, Juste, Rinaldo, Dracula, Alucard, Hector, Soma....

Dude, today is not your day, is it? Every instance of this, save for Soma (arguably), is justified...

Ritchet*

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« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 07:42:49 PM by theplottwist »
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Offline Foffy

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Re: Koji Igarashi Leaves Konami, Founding New Studio, Metroidvania GDC
« Reply #151 on: March 17, 2014, 07:53:59 PM »
0
And fans of Lords of Shadow aren't Castlevania fans because of what? Some ridiculous fandom litmus test?

Not of fandom, but of concepts. You see, the more I think about it, the more I am reminded of say, DmC. What people like about it, in relation to previous games, is often only on the surface. Digging deeper and you see nothing resembling what came before in any regard. I feel this is what Lords of Shadow has done: it is running with the Castlevania name, but has next to nothing to do with the root of what Castlevania is. This is not about lore, but about gameplay, about basic elementary concepts that Lords, for better or worse depending on where you stand, have completely changed. Fans of Lords of Shadow would be fans of Lords of Shadow. Very little of that has to do with Castlevania prior, to be perfectly honest. It has the IP name, but is it really, sincerely, the same? I would actually argue no. This is not to say Lords of Shadow is shit, but it's trying to fill in the shoes of something totally different under the same brand name, and those things under the hood are significantly different.

We're now at a point that what most of us probably liked about Castlevania will literally have to be found in what Igarashi might be doing, as what's taken its place in the reboot is not what was once there. The point of a reboot is to revive something, and various reboots have had various degrees of success. I would position Lords of Shadow as a boom for the IP name, but is it a revival of Castlevania? In name only, yes. In what its core elements were? Those are gone. Like how Devil May Cry fans had to go to Bayonetta, or even some Final Fantasy fans went to The Last Story, I feel what I dug about Castlevania really isn't alive in its present state. To assume the reboot continues will only continue that feeling. And again, I am not talking about the story, but very basic ideas of what the older games were about that the reboot for the most part chooses to get rid of. Lords of Shadow and Castlevania before it are really two different things, as David Cox once argued. I would really affirm to that position, personally.

I hope you see I am offering no ire for fans of Lords of Shadow, but Lords of Shadow and Castlevania, and to a lesser extent of evolution the IGAvanias, are totally different beasts who share an IP name. You and I may dig both for they share the same IP name for we attach to that brand appeal, but in truth they're really almost two different franchises altogether.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 08:11:41 PM by Foffy »

Offline Viskod

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Re: Koji Igarashi Leaves Konami, Founding New Studio, Metroidvania GDC
« Reply #152 on: March 17, 2014, 08:26:13 PM »
-1
That is exactly what I was describing. It's a Castlevania game but they don't count because it's not your Castlevania game.

Offline Belmontoya

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Re: Koji Igarashi Leaves Konami, Founding New Studio, Metroidvania GDC
« Reply #153 on: March 17, 2014, 08:33:36 PM »
+1
If any past producer were to return to the Castlevania series I would want it to be Kazumi Kitaue.

Just imagine an open world Castlevania game with a dash of RPG elements that plays like an advanced SCV4. And what the hell; a new OST by Masanori Adachi and Taro Kudo.

I'm salivating just talking thinking about it...

I would trade my entire video game collection. I would give away almost all of my electronics. I would empty my bank account if I could make such a thing happen once more.

I want that 1 million times more than I want IGA to ever make another CV game. And I did love some of his games.
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Offline Ahasverus

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Re: Koji Igarashi Leaves Konami, Founding New Studio, Metroidvania GDC
« Reply #154 on: March 17, 2014, 08:54:38 PM »
0
Castlevania is a super pastiche of genres, not even Cv 1 and 2 are the same genre. Hell, not even the first 2 versions of CV1.

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Offline Foffy

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Re: Koji Igarashi Leaves Konami, Founding New Studio, Metroidvania GDC
« Reply #155 on: March 17, 2014, 09:26:40 PM »
0
Castlevania is a super pastiche of genres, not even Cv 1 and 2 are the same genre. Hell, not even the first 2 versions of CV1.

I am not speaking of genres. I guess it is hard to elaborate on concepts like a "soul" of a game, or the DNA that makes it, but I feel for most of the franchise, regardless of what it ended up being in terms of quality kept the root of what this series had. Even Simon's Quest with its nonlinear approach still had a feeling that it connected to the previous game outside of the franchise name and the storyline. Lords of Shadow is an outlier in this regard; if it were not for the name drops or even the brand name, I would be hard pressed to actually see it in relation to titles that came before it, and I don't mean that in the sense of canon. Take Bayonetta for example: it clearly has no connection to the world of Devil May Cry and is not even of the same franchise. But you can tell how it plays, what some of its root concepts are that make it clearly feel like it is distinctly related to Devil May Cry. You can tell it's from a similar foundation for the core of what it emphasizes is absolutely shared, that the same meat around the bones, while from different "beings" in terms of IP, is still of the same core materials. Perhaps an example of a disconnection would be better to explain what I mean, and there is no better one than Star Fox Adventures. This is a game with the Star Fox IP, and even features the characters from the franchise, and yet it very distinctly does not feel like it really is a Star Fox game, and this is not just because the game is on foot. It lacks a distinct "soul" that makes it feel like it is of the same family that the other titles in the series also have. I guess for me it is very easy to see that Lords of Shadow does not have this in relation to other games, even Judgment. That "soul", that DNA that makes a game 'belong' is something you can very easily see in a lot of Nintendo franchises despite the Star Fox example, and that is because the newer games do try to keep that core heritage in tact, and this is where the reboot failed. Lords of Shadow barely has that association with the previous games. If it were not for the IP name and the claims it was supposed to start off as a remake of Castlevania I and II, the games look like they can be a totally new IP altogether, and I find that telling. I am not saying that they're awful, or that they're bullshit vania games, but that they share the same name as the previous games but have an entirely different set of DNA inside that shares no relation to what came before it. It is not an evolution, which one can argue Igarashi attempted depending on the game, but something very loosely connected on a family tree of different species, that they are connected only by a loose string, that being the IP name. And this process happens all of the time, look at XCOM Declassified, the titles in the Far Cry franchise, or the new Legacy of Kain game. This is a habit of games, and I think it's a bad one. Lords of Shadow is that to Castlevania, similarly to what Far Cry: Blood Dragon is in relation to the first game. Very little of what their core is ends up honestly shared, but mainly the name. And right now, it looks like Igarashi may be ready and willing to create something of that spirit of the games that came before Lords of Shadow, that void many fans feel the series has now taken because of the body replacement. There is a very clear reason many people throw the "not a real Castlevania card" sort of shade, because the difference in how it feels is very apparent.

Irregardless of this, who is to say what will happen to the franchise now? We really have no idea what they will do next, or even IF they will continue the franchise. I just don't want this to become another Silent Hill, running on the legacy of what once was because what it is just doesn't hold a candle to the past, even without the nostalgia goggles. You can look at nearly every game after the third one as a separate franchise due to the stark difference, with the fourth game being arguable. You can tell the last two games have very little in common what that sort of thing, and again, I am not talking genres or how it plays, but there's something more deeper than that. Sorry if I am having a poor time elaborating this. I guess I am in a position to now just care for what's used on an IP but to wonder if X has a sincere relation to Y other than both having Z as their IP name. Ninja Gaiden Z is another, very shortly arriving example of this.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 09:30:07 PM by Foffy »

Offline DoctaMario

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Re: Koji Igarashi Leaves Konami, Founding New Studio, Metroidvania GDC
« Reply #156 on: March 17, 2014, 09:28:00 PM »
-1
Not of fandom, but of concepts. You see, the more I think about it, the more I am reminded of say, DmC. What people like about it, in relation to previous games, is often only on the surface. Digging deeper and you see nothing resembling what came before in any regard. I feel this is what Lords of Shadow has done: it is running with the Castlevania name, but has next to nothing to do with the root of what Castlevania is. This is not about lore, but about gameplay, about basic elementary concepts that Lords, for better or worse depending on where you stand, have completely changed. Fans of Lords of Shadow would be fans of Lords of Shadow. Very little of that has to do with Castlevania prior, to be perfectly honest. It has the IP name, but is it really, sincerely, the same? I would actually argue no. This is not to say Lords of Shadow is shit, but it's trying to fill in the shoes of something totally different under the same brand name, and those things under the hood are significantly different.

We're now at a point that what most of us probably liked about Castlevania will literally have to be found in what Igarashi might be doing, as what's taken its place in the reboot is not what was once there. The point of a reboot is to revive something, and various reboots have had various degrees of success. I would position Lords of Shadow as a boom for the IP name, but is it a revival of Castlevania? In name only, yes. In what its core elements were? Those are gone. Like how Devil May Cry fans had to go to Bayonetta, or even some Final Fantasy fans went to The Last Story, I feel what I dug about Castlevania really isn't alive in its present state. To assume the reboot continues will only continue that feeling. And again, I am not talking about the story, but very basic ideas of what the older games were about that the reboot for the most part chooses to get rid of. Lords of Shadow and Castlevania before it are really two different things, as David Cox once argued. I would really affirm to that position, personally.

I hope you see I am offering no ire for fans of Lords of Shadow, but Lords of Shadow and Castlevania, and to a lesser extent of evolution the IGAvanias, are totally different beasts who share an IP name. You and I may dig both for they share the same IP name for we attach to that brand appeal, but in truth they're really almost two different franchises altogether.

Bullshit. I've been playing DMC since the DMC1 demo and DmC had plenty of the elements of previous DMC games in it. It wasn't 100% verbatim like the old games (thankfully they decided to do it a little different as opposed to DMC4 which was a rushed, hot-garbage attempt at bringing back elements of DMC1 but done badly) but the people who hated the game were mainly butthurt about the botched PR campaign. No one I've ever debated about it has many valid reasons for disliking it outside of hating Tameem/Capcom.

Likewise, LoS has TONS of elements of previous CV games, it's just that people either don't recognize the source material, or don't WANT to recognize it because they want more of the same. Name pretty much any element of LoS and I can tell you what previous game or games utilized it, outside of the Light and Dark magics (which is debatable) and the QTEs. And since a lot of that source material was taken from past 3d CV games, it's not surprising that a community that pretty much hates 3d games wouldn't know where the elements came from.



ON TOPIC: Sad to see IGA leave Konami, but it had to happen. They treated him like a crazy aunt they locked in the attic. Hopefully he'll have the means to be able to do what he wants to do. It seems like he was always fighting with the suits at Konami over deadlines and budgets, but I always thought because he was such a CV fan, his ideas were probably more grandiose than his means were able to accomplish. It's too bad really. I can only imagine what he'd have been able to do had they given him bigger budgets and more time to perfect the games. His games are seldom my favorites, but one of his, Dracula X Chronicles IS my favorite, and I'll always be grateful that he saw fit to release that. It was amazing to be able to finally play Rondo without an emulator and DXC was a masterpiece IMO. He really did the game proud with his treatment of it.

Offline Ahasverus

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Re: Koji Igarashi Leaves Konami, Founding New Studio, Metroidvania GDC
« Reply #157 on: March 17, 2014, 09:29:58 PM »
0
.
It's hard because it's personal and subjective so in the same way you can't say what it means, you can't just decide what it doesn't mean in a global sense, just for you. The root of the series doesn't really exist, it's all about what perceptions, and for that all the "holier than thou because I don't like LoS" rethoric is futile.

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Offline e105beta

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Re: Koji Igarashi Leaves Konami, Founding New Studio, Metroidvania GDC
« Reply #158 on: March 17, 2014, 09:48:31 PM »
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Star Fox Adventures

You know, I played Star Fox Adventures, and while I thought it was a strange turn of events, I never once thought to myself "This is not a real Star Fox game".

Offline Foffy

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Re: Koji Igarashi Leaves Konami, Founding New Studio, Metroidvania GDC
« Reply #159 on: March 17, 2014, 09:55:34 PM »
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It's hard because it's personal and subjective so in the same way you can't say what it means, you can't just decide what it doesn't mean in a global sense, just for you. The root of the series doesn't really exist, it's all about what perceptions, and for that all the "holier than thou because I don't like LoS" rethoric is futile.

I never once implied I was holier than thou, for who am I as an authority? Never once did I present the idea that my view and my view alone is an absolute truth. Mainly I am presenting a position, and you are free and valid to agree or disagree. There are things I dig about Lords as a game, but things I do not dig about it as a Castlevania game, if that makes sense. The first game was pretty solid at points (the last third of the game is garbage), and I think the overall consensus on the following two shows it becomes a very "this was a hit" or "this was some shit" types of responses show how divisive they can be, even to non-fans of the older titles. You too were on that hyperbolic ride as the game came out, comparing it DMC3 and then being enraged that MercurySteam ever worked on the fucking franchise. All in the same week, too. To claim I am holier than anyone really emphasizes that you don't know me, but this could be due to the fact we never really talk on a direct personal level. Understand you and I are firm equals. :P

Bullshit. I've been playing DMC since the DMC1 demo and DmC had plenty of the elements of previous DMC games in it. It wasn't 100% verbatim like the old games (thankfully they decided to do it a little different as opposed to DMC4 which was a rushed, hot-garbage attempt at bringing back elements of DMC1 but done badly) but the people who hated the game were mainly butthurt about the botched PR campaign. No one I've ever debated about it has many valid reasons for disliking it outside of hating Tameem/Capcom.

Likewise, LoS has TONS of elements of previous CV games, it's just that people either don't recognize the source material, or don't WANT to recognize it because they want more of the same. Name pretty much any element of LoS and I can tell you what previous game or games utilized it, outside of the Light and Dark magics (which is debatable) and the QTEs. And since a lot of that source material was taken from past 3d CV games, it's not surprising that a community that pretty much hates 3d games wouldn't know where the elements came from.

I would implore you to find better debaters of Devil May Cry, though I will admit I am not one of them. There are many arguments, particularly Youtube videos, that highlight the significant changes to combat that change the entire feel of the game, and those can evolve into valid reasons like the color coded enemies imploring the player to be forced to use certain weapons which is a significant change from previous games, to the baffling removal of lock-on. I noticed these things as well, but I would never perpetuate to claim the game is garbage. But those changes are significant enough to make the combat feel and flow in a less satisfying way than what was available in the previous two games. To the level many claim to be shit? Of course not, but nowhere near the breath the older games offered. It is also important to emphasize that even sharing some elements to previous games isn't as easy as it sounds, to check a box. Mirror of Fate and Lords of Shadow 2 feature more non-linear exploration like the older games, but in both it is terrible, and exclusively for collectables. Like how Far Cry and Far Cry Blood Dragon both feature open terrain for you to explore, the rest of how that cake is constructed make for two different cakes. This can be said for Lords of Shadow and previous 3D titles, for what they share with one another is not deep enough to really be the same thing, or to even be based off the same idea. It is how they are put together that seems the package, and as a result Lords of Shadow feels like a significantly different and unrelated game to the previous titles, even if you wish to argue it feels more like Lament of Innocence than God of War. It's how the whole thing is constructed that makes it seem so different. Does that make any sense? I feel I am confusing people here. ):

You know, I played Star Fox Adventures, and while I thought it was a strange turn of events, I never once thought to myself "This is not a real Star Fox game".

I have only cited that for entertainment purposes in hopes of explaining myself. Please understand I am not arguing it as undeniable fact. Many use the reality that it was retrofitted from a new IP that claim it's not a real Star Fox game. I feel some are taking what I am saying as gospel, that I am an ether of truth, and I feel this is a mistake.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 09:57:35 PM by Foffy »

Offline Reinhart77

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Re: Koji Igarashi Leaves Konami, Founding New Studio, Metroidvania GDC
« Reply #160 on: March 17, 2014, 10:09:01 PM »
0
Since Mercury Steam isn't technically Konami, I'm gonna dream about the possibility of Konami letting Iga's new company helm a Castlevania project some day.  Don't know how realistic that could be, but someday, maybe it'd make sense to do.

Offline Ahasverus

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Re: Koji Igarashi Leaves Konami, Founding New Studio, Metroidvania GDC
« Reply #161 on: March 17, 2014, 10:10:17 PM »
+1
.
Don't worry I wasn't talking about you especifically, it's just that today is the day when I've most seen the "LoS is for casuals/posers/untrue fans and real fans hate it". It grinds me to no end!
Since Mercury Steam isn't technically Konami, I'm gonna dream about the possibility of Konami letting Iga's new company helm a Castlevania project some day.  Don't know how realistic that could be, but someday, maybe it'd make sense to do.
I'm not counting on IGA being in super friendly terms with Konami.

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Offline derision

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Re: Koji Igarashi Leaves Konami, Founding New Studio, Metroidvania GDC
« Reply #162 on: March 17, 2014, 10:11:31 PM »
+2
Ignoring the really messy and longwinded clash of opinions going on here, game series often have games that feature different kinds of gameplay. Big woop.

LoS can legitimately still be Castlevania even if it plays differently than past games. You got your demonic shapeshifting castle, Dracula, crazy monsters, Belmonts, Alucard, and a whip. That's the brand.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 10:14:29 PM by derision »

Offline KaZudra

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Re: Koji Igarashi Leaves Konami, Founding New Studio, Metroidvania GDC
« Reply #163 on: March 17, 2014, 10:30:59 PM »
+4
Are we really having the "Lords of Shadow isn't Castlevania" thing AGAIN? That shit was old 4 years ago, let it go.


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Offline Foffy

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Re: Koji Igarashi Leaves Konami, Founding New Studio, Metroidvania GDC
« Reply #164 on: March 17, 2014, 10:52:52 PM »
0
Don't worry I wasn't talking about you especifically, it's just that today is the day when I've most seen the "LoS is for casuals/posers/untrue fans and real fans hate it". It grinds me to no end!

People can be shady. Like I mentioned with authority, who are they to hold their opinions over you? In the words of my hero(ine?) RuPaul, pay them bitches no mind. There are games I like or own people talk shit about, but I dig it. Twerk to your freakuency, friend! Much love. <3
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 10:58:30 PM by Foffy »

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