Topic: What would *you* change about the CV Universe?

[zangetsu468]

When you beat the game after unlocking the whip, it assumes you used the whip to beat Dracula, and unlocks the true ending. When you do it without unlocking it, *if I'm not mistaken* the ending comments on it, but the game's extras are not unlocked, signaling that canonically (independent of having beaten Dracula with a cream pie), Jonathan DID use the whip.

I'm trying for every ending on my next playthrough.

I always assumed that Quincey Morris was unaware of being of Belmont blood, even before the game Portrait of Ruin. This would at least be consistent with the literary character, since he doesn't know anything about vampires, Dracula, etc. You could justify their conflict as being the Belmont destiny and they're naturally drawn to one another. It would also explain why he uses a Bowie knife instead of the Vampire Killer.

I take issue with this as it's quite obvious Richter was the 'Whip's memory" and hence the last Belmont to wield the VK. It's part of the canon that the VK was passed to the Morris family, so by that logic the whip was passed after Richter. By the time it was passed to Quincey, he would have to at least know about the VK and something about the Belmonts/ his ancestry. How much he knows is another story. However, If Johnny Morris and Eric Lecarde know, then I would assume Quincey passed that knowledge on in some form (be it through journal entries like the Novel or to his partner; Johnny's mother).

Going by the translation of the Japanese manual on Mr. P's site, the story doesn't mention anything about John and Eric being present for the final battle. Also, while the novel depicts Quincey as unmarried and trying to court Lucy, there's nothing to say that he wasn't widowed and/or had children in the past. Or John could be an illegitimate son. I'm less inclined to accept the latter since Stoker painted all the characters as being pure and virtuous and Quincey Morris as gentlemanly. A retcon like that being made for the sake of Castlevania would go against Quincey's characterization.

Unless, prior to events of Dracula, Quincey had a child but never knew about it. This makes more sense to do with the novel, but it goes against the logic of the aforementioned point that Quincey would have known about the Belmonts/ VK to some extent. This complements the book saying little about his history aside from describing him as some kind of hunter.

[SiFi270]

I think he knew about his destiny, mainly because he's more willing to accept the existence of vampires than Arthur or Dr. Seward, and also because of the anecdote he shares about him having to put one of his horses down after a bat drains its blood. Maybe he told that story as a (rather unflattering, but much more believable for the likes of Dr. Seward) allegory for how John's mother died?

[zangetsu468]

I think he knew about his destiny, mainly because he's more willing to accept the existence of vampires than Arthur or Dr. Seward, and also because of the anecdote he shares about him having to put one of his horses down after a bat drains its blood.

Agreed, aside from Van Helsing and his knowledge of the esoteric ('the night') Quincey is definitely the most adept at hunting and believes and understands when it comes to the supernatural.

I actually had this thought from ages ago. In the last chapter of the book, Mina's journal entry notes that  her and Jonathan Harker had a son and called him Quincey. Given the events of the novel and its integration to the Castlevania universe, I just never believed Quincey had a son until after the events of the book (even though it says he died by too many injuries inflicted). My thought was always that Quincey named his first born Jonathan after Harker, the same way Jonathan/ Mina did with their first born after him. Granted Jonathan is a common name, but I just always believed this. 

[Inccubus]

This so freaking much. I don't get why people try to justify videogame mechanics with story. Jonathan can't "kill Dracula without the Vampire Killer because Belmont blood". He can do it because the developers can't prohibit the player of equipping the short sword and mowing Dracula down with it. besides, Belmont blood by itself doesn't guarantee you can attack Dracula. Belmont blood guarantees ONLY that you can wield the Vampire Killer. And even so, if you're not a Belmont even in surname, your life will be drained.

While it's true that game play doesn't necessarily have a 1:1 ratio to the story, the fact of the matter is that the developers could have prohibited the player in any way they chose. They probably didn't because they likely thought that it would be less fun for the player.
Personally, I prefer that the game play reflect the story as closely as possible. It eliminates exactly this kind of discussion.
All the scenarios that are not part of the story should be relegated to replays or non-story modes.

[zangetsu468]

While it's true that game play doesn't necessarily have a 1:1 ratio to the story, the fact of the matter is that the developers could have prohibited the player in any way they chose. They probably didn't because they likely thought that it would be less fun for the player.
Personally, I prefer that the game play reflect the story as closely as possible. It eliminates exactly this kind of discussion.
All the scenarios that are not part of the story should be relegated to replays or non-story modes.

While I agree that story modes should reflect plot events, I do not see the point of a game that allows you to collect so many items then strip you of the ability to do things like use those items on bosses. This is too restrictive for the nature of game. However, the likes of Zelda OOT and Castlevania OOE got it right for the final boss fight (not counting glitches) i.e. the player has to use a weapon to deliver the final blow in order to destroy the final boss. This works better than restricting the player imo. 

[GuyStarwind]

I agree with being able to use the weapons the game gives to fight any of the enemies but having a paper airplane kill the dark lord of Castlevania is too much. So, yeah have a weapon deliver the final blow would be the best choice in this situation. 

[Inccubus]

While I agree that story modes should reflect plot events, I do not see the point of a game that allows you to collect so many items then strip you of the ability to do things like use those items on bosses. This is too restrictive for the nature of game. However, the likes of Zelda OOT and Castlevania OOE got it right for the final boss fight (not counting glitches) i.e. the player has to use a weapon to deliver the final blow in order to destroy the final boss. This works better than restricting the player imo.

Well I'm not suggesting the restriction be on "bosses", just the relevant ones.
As far as I'm concerned regardless of whatever options the game gives the player, vampires should be very hard to kill since they are traditionally only vulnerable to specific things. (Maybe that's why there are hardly ever more than 2 vampires in any given Castlevania?)
Certainly it would make for a more robust game play experience if you actually had to worry about using silver weapons on were-beasts for example.
As for Dracula, I said he should have to be KILLED either by the Vampire Killer or his own power.
That is not to say that you can't beat him to within an inch of his un-life with a rubber duck if your hero has that kind raw power.
The way this Dracula is presented I doubt even traditional vampire slaying tactics would work.
But forcing the final blow to come from a specific character or weapon isn't that big a restriction for the final boss.
...
As long as they don't pull that Dawn of Sorrow BS about bosses coming back with 50% HP if you fail to seal them.

[zangetsu468]

That's what I was saying, the final blow to the final boss.

I think the whole silver to more heavily injure werebeasts is slightly archaic though (LOZ even used this to beat Ganon) as it comes from the notion of silver helping to purify one's blood i.e. bad for demons... Even though I do appreciate the esoteric-ness of this, we're using a whip to kill The Lord of Darkness so I think those sorts of things make for nice additions, but not for  necessities. Technically the VK hunts the night which is anything demon related.
In Sotn I thought it was cool that Mirror Mail makes Medusa retreat rather than advance. but I also think that too much of this takes the fun out of the game and makes you have to stop-start in order to either use the right item or find the right item to use in your inventory. It should be more like if you're intelligent enough, you will be rewarded.

[Inccubus]

Seems like a bit of a nit pick to be honest. SotN isn't a pure action game so having to go into your inventory sometimes is going to happen.
Think of it this way, your intelligence is rewarded if you figure out the correct weapons to use ahead of time by giving you an uninterrupted battle.
I wouldn't call the use of silver on werebeasts archaic, it's simply the lore associated with them.
Not having it makes them much less of a threat. And I for one would prefer that a werewolf be an actual threat instead of a random enemy that is only a werewolf as a set piece.

Correction, the Belmont's hunt the night. The Vampire Killer does what it does because of the soul bonded to it.
I see it like this, the alchemical process that bonded Sara's soul to the whip used her hatred of Walter and then Mathias as a source of power.
So any being perceived as being associated with Mathias/vampires will be vulnerable to the whip.
That's why it's affective against Death, which LoI is keen to point out is divine and thus not a demon.
In fact, most of the enemies you fight in any given Castlevania game are not demonic at all.
And besides that, the whip is specifically designed to slay vampires, not demons.

[zangetsu468]

Seems like a bit of a nit pick to be honest. SotN isn't a pure action game so having to go into your inventory sometimes is going to happen.
Think of it this way, your intelligence is rewarded if you figure out the correct weapons to use ahead of time by giving you an uninterrupted battle.

There are ways around this, allowing certain sets of weapons, items or glyphs for example to be saved and shuffled through without accessing inventory. Of course you have to access it sometimes, and it's part of what I liked about Sotn, but more as a one off game. Generally I think Castlevania is better at being faster paced with its gameplay.

I wouldn't call the use of silver on werebeasts archaic, it's simply the lore associated with them.
Not having it makes them much less of a threat. And I for one would prefer that a werewolf be an actual threat instead of a random enemy that is only a werewolf as a set piece.

Each to his own. The oldschool CV's never had this but compensated for it in other ways i.e. the cross has the best range, axe hits enemies and objects you could never hit otherwise, and holy water raped enemies on the ground.

Correction, the Belmont's hunt the night. The Vampire Killer does what it does because of the soul bonded to it.
I see it like this, the alchemical process that bonded Sara's soul to the whip used her hatred of Walter and then Mathias as a source of power.

The Belmont hunts the night, which they're most famous for doing in the confines of 'Demon Castle Dracula'. Dracula was Mathias, he became evil and embraced a demonic nature. Mathias professes wanting revenge against God, this is demonic in the sense that it is taking the stance of being anti-God/ anti-Christ.
Dracula also has the ability to transform into a Demon, lest we forget.

Sara's hatred is never mentioned, that's not part of her character.
"I can feel it. My heartbeat is weakening and my blood is growing cold... I can feel myself changing into something inhuman... If my soul can save others, then I won't die in vain. I do not want anyone else to suffer my fate."
It's because she was a pure untarnished soul that becomes the VK's power, nothing to do with hatred, in fact she wanted to help Leon which is why she offered her "tainted soul" to Leon. She knew she'd lose her humanity to vampirism.

So any being perceived as being associated with Mathias/vampires will be vulnerable to the whip.
That's why it's affective against Death, which LoI is keen to point out is divine and thus not a demon.
In fact, most of the enemies you fight in any given Castlevania game are not demonic at all.
And besides that, the whip is specifically designed to slay vampires, not demons.

Demon is a very broad term. Demons>>>>>Vampires, sub category
If the entities aren't demonic, they're associated with the night and that's enough.
The VK is specially made to hunt the night, that is all.

[Nagumo]

This is just a minor gripe, but I'm suprised Dracula's origin is only brought up in one game and then never again. The conversations that always occur before fighting him would seem to be the perfect opportunity to allude to his past somehow.

[Inccubus]

There are ways around this, allowing certain sets of weapons, items or glyphs for example to be saved and shuffled through without accessing inventory. Of course you have to access it sometimes, and it's part of what I liked about Sotn, but more as a one off game. Generally I think Castlevania is better at being faster paced with its gameplay.

Having selectable sets of inventory is convenient, but I still don't see it as that big a deal if you have to switch up weapons from time to time in an action-RPG when the situation calls for it.
I would disagree about fast paced game play as a fan of the original games.
Before SotN, Castlevania games were always designed as slower paced platformers that punished rushing forward and not thinking about what you're doing... especially near pits.

Each to his own. The oldschool CV's never had this but compensated for it in other ways i.e. the cross has the best range, axe hits enemies and objects you could never hit otherwise, and holy water raped enemies on the ground.

I wouldn't call the design of the sub-weapons a compensation for traditional monster weakness.
The original games didn't really use a lot of monsters with specific traditional weaknesses.
They weren't compensating, they were just... ignoring it.
But, yes, to each their own.

The Belmont hunts the night, which they're most famous for doing in the confines of 'Demon Castle Dracula'. Dracula was Mathias, he became evil and embraced a demonic nature. Mathias professes wanting revenge against God, this is demonic in the sense that it is taking the stance of being anti-God/ anti-Christ.
Dracula also has the ability to transform into a Demon, lest we forget.

Sara's hatred is never mentioned, that's not part of her character.
"I can feel it. My heartbeat is weakening and my blood is growing cold... I can feel myself changing into something inhuman... If my soul can save others, then I won't die in vain. I do not want anyone else to suffer my fate."
It's because she was a pure untarnished soul that becomes the VK's power, nothing to do with hatred, in fact she wanted to help Leon which is why she offered her "tainted soul" to Leon. She knew she'd lose her humanity to vampirism.
Demon is a very broad term. Demons>>>>>Vampires, sub category
If the entities aren't demonic, they're associated with the night and that's enough.
The VK is specially made to hunt the night, that is all.

Wanting revenge against God does not make you demonic.
Besides, as far as we know from the games' stories Mathias does not gain demonic powers until he becomes the Dark Lord in CV3.
LoI only specifies that he has become a vampire and this isn't Buffy the Vampire Slayer where vampires are a type of demon.

I watched the ending while I was writing my previous post and I'm watching the cut scenes involving Sara as I write this one.
Leon specifically says that he can sense the whip's rage at the end of the game.
Since the whip contains Sara's soul then, by transitive property, it's Sara's rage Leon is feeling.
The source of the whip's power is most definitely pure, but rage isn't born of kindness.
Assuming Sara has no hatred or anger in her character reduces her to a flat one-dimensional character.
And, of course the best bit of evidence that the source of the Vampire Killer's power is Sarah's hatred is the very incantation Rinaldo uses to bond Sara's soul to the whip:
Rinaldo: "All becomes one in infinity. The tainted soul joins his. Undesired and cursed soul, his blood accepts your HATRED for the power to slay."
Later Leon says, "Yes, I can tell. The power of hatred and destruction the whip has against vampires."

I think you could make an argument that most of the enemies you fight in Castlevania ARE demonic. IRL witch hunting lore blames demonic/Satan-derived powers for animal-human hybrids, possessed inanimate objects,  and simply normal people turned evil and violent. If a witch/wizard/necromancer were to cast a spell or control skeletons or do anything like that, it was generally taken to be the work of a devil and not the witch alone. Pretty much all of the magic sciences involved invoking a demonic being and making THEM do the work.

However that lore isn't used in Castlevania.
Sypha, Carrie, and Yoko are all witches and they are all specifically employed by the Church in Castlevania's world.
Plus, the real world church blamed everything from the common cold to a woman's menstrual cycle on Lucifer and his demons.
So you can't really use that as an argument.

[zangetsu468]

Having selectable sets of inventory is convenient, but I still don't see it as that big a deal if you have to switch up weapons from time to time in an action-RPG when the situation calls for it.
I would disagree about fast paced game play as a fan of the original games.
Before SotN, Castlevania games were always designed as slower paced platformers that punished rushing forward and not thinking about what you're doing... especially near pits.

Wanting revenge against God does not make you demonic.

It makes you anti-Christ in the physical sense, and in LOI's context - willing to embrace the one's evil/ demonic nature. i.e. Kidnapping your best friend's fiance, knowing she'll be turned into a vampire and using the Crimson Stone to become lord of the vampires. Yes ....not demonic at all.

Besides, as far as we know from the games' stories Mathias does not gain demonic powers until he becomes the Dark Lord in CV3.

Transforming into the Lord of the Vampires and turning into a bat is not demonic..

LoI only specifies that he has become a vampire and this isn't Buffy the Vampire Slayer where vampires are a type of demon.

Then the series should be called Vampire Castle Dracula... No but you're right, Medusa, The Forgotten One, all the enemies the castle is crawling with, I'm sure they're all good people/ animals/ hybrids.
I'm not even going to comment about buffy and the fact you watch it.
You might want to define what you consider demonic then, because it doesn't seem like it's much if anything.

I watched the ending while I was writing my previous post and I'm watching the cut scenes involving Sara as I write this one.
Leon specifically says that he can sense the whip's rage at the end of the game.
Since the whip contains Sara's soul then, by transitive property, it's Sara's rage Leon is feeling.

Though it's never stated in this moment. It could be that the whip itself imbued with Sara's soul is reacting with rage toward the night.

The source of the whip's power is most definitely pure, but rage isn't born of kindness.
Assuming Sara has no hatred or anger in her character reduces her to a flat one-dimensional character.

I never said she wasn't human, I said this is not how her character was portrayed, nor how the manual describes her. She is described as pure.

And, of course the best bit of evidence that the source of the Vampire Killer's power is Sarah's hatred is the very incantation Rinaldo uses to bond Sara's soul to the whip:
Rinaldo: "All becomes one in infinity. The tainted soul joins his. Undesired and cursed soul, his blood accepts your HATRED for the power to slay."

Even if true, this is what Rinaldo is saying, it doesn't resonate with what Sara says about wanting to help and have others avoid her fate. It could be that it simply harnessed any hatred she had inside her. I'd be interested to see what the Japanese text says.

Later Leon says, "Yes, I can tell. The power of hatred and destruction the whip has against vampires."

Again, this is highlighting one emotion against the night. The power came from Sara's soul joining with the Whip of Alchemy. granted that the whip requires a tainted soul for its completion, but it didn't necessarily require Sara's soul. It required the tainted soul of someone who trusts the wielder of the Whip of Alchemy. One then has to wonder if the tainted soul's character has anything to do with this at all. It seems more like the Whip of Alchemy harnessing the soul and emphasising the one emotion for its completion rather than saying X is filled with hate because of Y - that's one dimensional.

[Shiroi Koumori]

Y'know, maybe some of the dialogues were cut from LoI ala what happened in SotN.

[X]

Transforming into the Lord of the Vampires and turning into a bat is not demonic..

Vampires are not demons. They are vampires. They belong to their own classification. As for creatures like Medusa and the forgotten one? Medusa is not a demon. She is a Gorgon. Like vampires, Gorgons are of their own classification. The forgotten one is most definitely demonic in some form or another. But as to what it really is besides a hanging hunk of raw meat, who knows.

Then the series should be called Vampire Castle Dracula...

The title refers to Castlevania itself. Demon castle Dracula. In other words Dracula created a Demonic castle from which to rule over all. The title does not refer to Dracula as the demon but the castle itself.